Microsoft is not giving up on Windows RT, despite what the rumors may be saying

Microsoft has not released any official sales number for either Surface device, but it is fair to assume they're selling moderately well. Bloomberg reported that 400,000 Surface Pros had sold, along with 1.1 million Surface RTs, a drop in the ocean compared to Apple's 7+ million iPad sales in the same period. Despite favourable reviews from technology websites, including Neowin, Microsoft may still be disappointed with the sales figures. 

But they will not give up, according to CNET. Sources who are familiar with Microsoft's plans for the Surface RT insist that it is part of a longer strategy for Microsoft. With Windows Blue, some were predicting that Microsoft may kill off the RT in favour of the Pro, which is the more useful of the two tablets as it supports the millions and millions of Windows-based apps that require an Intel CPU. DigiTimes had previously reported that Microsoft were set to "merge" their Windows Blue technology with the RT; CNET says that's currently the case with Windows 8 (Note: DigiTimes have a very poor track record with rumours). 

CNET's source told them that the two code bases - one for RT and one for Windows 8 on the Pro - are identical anyway. There is one Windows Store for both ARM processors (found in the Surface RT) and Intel x86 processors (found in the Pro and most laptops). 

The source reiterated what Michael Angiulo, Microsoft's corporate VP for Planning and PC ecosystems, said in an interview with CNET on their long-term goals for the RT. In the interview, Angiulo said: 

It was a ton of work for us, and we didn't do the work and endure the disruption for any reason other than the fact that there's a strategy there that just gets stronger over time.

In the interview, Angiulo made it clear that ARM processors are superior to Intel chips when the device is connected to a 3G/4G connection, i.e. in a tablet or smartphone. 

DigiTimes reported that the RT's lack of compatibility with legacy Windows apps - both from Microsoft and third-party sources - had "seriously damaged demand" which may still be true. Samsung announced that their ARM-based Windows 8 tablet will not be available in the U.S, hinting at a serious problem for Microsoft. 

Source: CNET

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I think the problem still comes down to marketing and the desktop
1) The name: Consumers don't know what RT means, almost looks like a relic of old microsoft naming.
2) The use of the desktop. The surface RT to me should be a direct competitor to the ipad, meaning, no desktop. Its a lower end device, meant for mobile usage. Nothing more frustrating and yes I saw people testing it out at the Microsoft store, than clicking a app on the start screen, desktop launches with an error about the app can't run.
Market the Surface pro as a competitor to the Macbook Air

Bloomberg reported that 400,000 Surface Pros had sold, along with 1.1 million Surface RTs, a drop in the ocean compared to Apple's 7+ million iPad sales in the same period.

Do you have any idea what the phrase "a drop in the ocean" means? The saying certainly does not apply to a figure as large as 1/7. 1 million compared to 7 million is a sizable portion, especially considering the limited distriubtion of the Surface, and that it's in its first generation.

Sorry, but you won't be able to make many more smug statements like this. Windows RT is in a growth stage, while Apple is facing competition from all fronts and has nowhere to go but down.

These kinds of words can be used because he is talking about Windows. If I were to call all OSX sales a drop in the bucket compared to Win8 sales, there would be 50 Apple fans here screaming that I am a hater.

Yes, this is only 1/7 the sales of iPad (of course, they are comparing a full screen device to two different devices - iPad Mini and iPad full), but also think of it as these are sales that Apple missed out on. 1 million people who could have bought iPads, but didn't. 1 million times at least $499, or half a billion more dollars that would be in Apple's bank account. You can't tell me that Apple is pi&&#@ that they do not have that $500 million more in the bank that they can flaunt, $500 million that they could use for reason to bring their stock price back up. So while Max, the other Apple fans, and Apple themselves like to play it nonchalant, this is $500 million short from Apple's world domination and total control of the market.

Well, Apple sold 22 million iPads in three months. Say the Surface sells 1.5 million per month, that's 4.5 million in the same period. “Drop in the ocean” is appropriate.

maxslaterrobins said,
Well, Apple sold 22 million iPads in three months. Say the Surface sells 1.5 million per month, that's 4.5 million in the same period. “Drop in the ocean” is appropriate.

We have an Apple devotee who is able to write articles with explicitly misleading information, and then enter articles and write (I will be generous and call it) fiction that he does not have to answer to and will not correct. Next thing we know, he will start deleting posts that he does not like (I have already had a few mysteriously disappear simply for questioning him).


The inmates are running the asylum.

maxslaterrobins said,
Well, Apple sold 22 million iPads in three months. Say the Surface sells 1.5 million per month, that's 4.5 million in the same period. “Drop in the ocean” is appropriate.

Can you go back to elementary school, please?

maxslaterrobins said,
Well, Apple sold 22 million iPads in three months. Say the Surface sells 1.5 million per month, that's 4.5 million in the same period. “Drop in the ocean” is appropriate.

Seriously? First you say the Surface Pro is incapable of editing movies and mp3s and now this? "A drop in the ocean" is a figure of speech used to mean the a figure is so insignificant it doesn't matter. 4.5/22=20%. If you got a 20% pay cut, would you shrug it off and say "meh, just a drop in the ocean"? Honestly I don't know what you're getting paid to write here but a 20% pay cut may be in order for the way you're embarrassing yourself and neowin in this thread.

Once metro matures as a UI and API and we see better apps (metro versions of office for starters), then RT fits well into the growing mobile market that desktop windows can't fit into regardless of how some would like it to. Can you imagine trying to use a desktop app on a smaller 7" screen?

Blue looks like a good next step and I'd love to play with a more finished preview build in June.

I don't think they get the strategy and the amazing feat Microsoft pulled off by moving windows from x86 to ARM. Windows is no longer tied to the SPOF x86 ISA. Whatever new architecture comes next after ARM Microsoft is in good position to move their bread and butter. They've secured their future with the RT. Only a non technical person would value throwing that away.

When the windows store is mature with a huge number of apps I don't think anyone will question RT. Its easy to bash it today. Remember,the apps are not special to RT. Microsoft is leveraging the power of windows and its user base to make RT successful.

The first time ever i have made this argument: ITS THE NAME!!!!!

Go ask any consumer (I did this with my mom) what type of functionality, or describe what they expect from "Windows 8 RT". They will have no clue! My mom starts describing a fully functional PC. Now go ask the same person what they would expect from "Windows Tablet", or "Windows 8 Tablet Edition". Both my aunt my mom started describing iPad! And thats the image that should be portrayed, and then the extras WinRT provides are just bonuses they may or may not use.

Given it's not "Windows 8 RT", that's part of the problem - I don't know if it's lack of branding (could be) or misunderstanding on the part of consumers or people selling the devices (again, could be), but Windows RT is called just that - it's not labeled or sold as Windows 8 (even though it looks like it). I'd expect in a few years with maybe another rev or two under the belt that it won't matter much anymore either, but it does now. However, asking someone what they expect from "Windows 8 RT" is interesting because there's no such product - there's "Windows 8" and "Windows RT"....

Of course they aren't giving up on Windows RT. They know that regular Windows can't compete with cheaper and lighter operating systems such as Android. These cheaper operating systems are the future for most devices. Phones, tablets, TV, frigerators, scanners, ATM, you name it. Every device in our Household and beyond will have a 'smart' alternative. They know a heavy OS like Windows and OSX can't compete with that.

Windows RT is a perfectly fine OS. Its newness is an issue because it doesnt have as much apps as iOS. But at the same time its building up a library of apps rather fast. Much faster then Windows Phone and even faster then iOS and Android in their early days. On top of that it stil has decades of development under the hood. It might not run exe programs but it stil has the advanced networking abilities, hardware support, etc of regular Windows.

I also think 1,5 million is an impressive number if Apple 'only' sold 7+ million iPads in the same period. Apple has people's attention and Android is its cheap alternative. Windows as a tablet OS stil has to make a name for itself. But it has an innovative UI with fun and easy to use gestures. Microsoft just has to keep at it. If OEMs are afraid to try something new then they should just go for it themselves. It will catch on, especially if it runs on cheaper hardware after the blue update.

I stil plan to get a Surface RT when I need one for university. But I'm also hoping to see what Nokia has to offer. And as I care more about battery life then running exe programs I'm actually hoping Nokia will come out with a cheap RT tablet. If not then its Surface RT for me.

a drop in the ocean compared to Apple's 7+ million iPad sales in the same period.

The problem with this is that Apple has not divided up the number of iPad vs. iPad Mini (of course, Microsoft does not divide up their numbers, and they are called a failure, but we don't need to apply the same standards to Apple). By reports, apple have sold a lot of Minis, which has caused a downgrade of their stock because the Mini is much cheaper, and will impact their profits. But we still do not know the number of iPad Full were sold. It could have been 1 million with 6 million Minis. So comparing a full size device from Microsoft to an uncertian number of full size devices from Apple cannot be made because Apple is hiding their numbers.

Hey I am with you on this.. Not only that if you strip the sales of the Ipad / mini to match the same amount of markets the surface is selling in then that number of 7+ million would drop considerably. not to mention the surface pro should be being compared to the mac book air and other ultra books when you look at the surface pro in that light 1 month of surface pro sale = 400k only US market last quarter of all mac book air sales = 1.2 million all markets internationally. Now tell me which one has poor sales??

maxslaterrobins said,
Okay: 7 million iPads were sold. 1.5 million Surfaces were sold.

Who's winning?

The self proclaimed "Devout" Apple fan needs to go on the offensive to protect Apple and his article?

You missed the point entirely. You are lumping all iPads into one. Did we have 1 million iPad Full and 6 million iPad Mini, or did we have 6 million iPad Full and 1 million iPad Minis sold? People around here have claimed that Microsoft is hiding numbers because they are embarrassed, but when Apple hides numbers, the fans have to be out in force to defend Apple. The argument is that if the numbers are not fully detailed, they are hiding something. People here have dismissed the 60 million Win8 sales because it does not include the number of upgrades, copies sold through by OEMs vs. the number purchased by OEMs and not yet sold, the number of computers sitting on store shelves with Win8 that have not yet sold, and does not have the number of downgrades (as if that number would be known by Microsoft). All those (and more) exact figures were not announced by Microsoft, and so to many of the Win8 haters around here, that makes the 60 million figure invalid. But we just hear 7 million from Apple, no breakdown in the figures so that we can properly compare the number of Surface RT sold to iPad Full sold. But, according to you, when I pose a much simpler question, how many RT to iPad Full have sold, we are not supposed to compare those numbers and you just dismiss them because it raises questions about Apple and could be made to paint Apple in a poor light.

Microsoft sells the Surface in as many countries as they want. They choose to only offer it in a few.

Comparing the Pro and Air is silly, mainly because they are for totally different markets. Try editing a video on the Pro, or a MP3. No luck, I'm afraid.

I said I was “devout” right before I praised Microsoft, something you seem to have forgotten.

Apple dont publish breakdown numbers, but at least they publish numbers. Have Microsoft actually published any numbers? Nope. The only reason we have the vaguest idea is because of Bloomberg. For all we know, Microsoft could've sold 133 Pros and 800 RTs. Who knows?

maxslaterrobins said,
Microsoft sells the Surface in as many countries as they want. They choose to only offer it in a few.

Microsoft is rolling out into new markets. Even Apple does not immediately launch in all markets, and they're one of the best at supply chaining; Microsoft only has experience with supply chaining small hardware parts in small numbers (e.g., keyboards and mice) and their consoles. The Surface is a completely different beast for Microsoft, and they will ramp up manufacturing just like Apple did over the years.
maxslaterrobins said,

Comparing the Pro and Air is silly, mainly because they are for totally different markets. Try editing a video on the Pro, or a MP3. No luck, I'm afraid.
What? The Surface Pro has the same--or at least very similar--Intel Core i5 ULV chip in it as a MacBook Air. If you can do it on the Air, then you can do it on the Pro. Also, the Pro is a full install of Windows 8 Pro, which means that any Windows-compatible software can be used.

You may feel that there is better software on OS X compared to Windows, but it's joke to say that it cannot be done in Windows. You either have no idea what you're talking about, or you're lying.

You sure can edit a video or mp3 on a pro as will as raw photos and anything else a mac book air can and a whole lot more. the surface pro is far superior to the mac book air in every category and as the lead of the surface pro team has just said the surface pro is first an ultra book with tablet features. so yes mac book air is a direct comparison .

maxslaterrobins said,
I said I was “devout” right before I praised Microsoft, something you seem to have forgotten.

Apple dont publish breakdown numbers, but at least they publish numbers. Have Microsoft actually published any numbers? Nope. The only reason we have the vaguest idea is because of Bloomberg. For all we know, Microsoft could've sold 133 Pros and 800 RTs. Who knows?

I know you ended up saying that you were starting to like Win Blue. I am starting to like my new iPod Nano, not sure tolerating something is praising it.

But see, this is the problem. Apple doesn't publish breakdown in their numbers, so we will just lump them all into one, and see, Apple is beating Microsoft when you have only vague numbers. I can do the same, a computer is a computer is a computer. That means that iOS is the same as OSX is the same as Windows for purposes of comparisons. Win8 has sold over 60 million copies in one quarter, add in the total number of Win7 copies sold in that quarter and who is winning in the OS war? Apple's numbers look absolutely anemic, pathetic, and since they will not break down their numbers, embarrassing.

maxslaterrobins said,
Apple dont publish breakdown numbers, but at least they publish numbers. Have Microsoft actually published any numbers? Nope. The only reason we have the vaguest idea is because of Bloomberg. For all we know, Microsoft could've sold 133 Pros and 800 RTs. Who knows?
No company, including Apple, is going to publish unflattering numbers of a new product.

If Microsoft was actually able to sell 400K units of the Surface Pro in one month, then Apple should be very concerned. That was limited to solely the US market, with extremely bad supply issues and running Windows 8, which is being treated equivalent to Windows Vista in much of the press. Numerous reports indicated that many places only received one or two units of the Surface. If with weak supply they're still doing well, then it's more a success than a failure.

The key for Microsoft is to figure out how to ramp up manufacturing because weak supply can turn a success into a failure. I think that Microsoft has done a poor job explaining the benefits of Surface RT (in MS Stores, I have observed that they tend to say it's good for web browsing, which is a terrible way to sell it) versus the competition, but I'd be pretty excited for a 1.1 million unit sale in the first quarter launch of a product that was only made available outside of Microsoft's own stores the week before Christmas, which again pointed to a weak supply chain.

SoylentG said,

The self proclaimed "Devout" Apple fan needs to go on the offensive to protect Apple and his article?

Nohone, let me ask you this. How is that any different than what you do? The self proclaimed Microsoft fan going on the offensive to protect Microsoft and their products by cherry picking data.

The iPad product line is lumped together because that's what companies do. General Motors doesn't report the amount of Camaro 1LTs it sells. They just say 61,648 Camaros sold in 2009. Not only has Microsoft not released the sales figures of its Surface line, but when they do release sales figures, I don't see them breaking down how many Halo 3 edition consoles, Elites, Arcade, Arcade with Kinect, Slims, or 20GB models of the Xbox have been sold. They just say x amount of XBoxs have been sold. Why are you not whining about Microsoft not doing so?

Breaking the variants down to compare sales is something enthusiasts do when they can't grasp the fact that the product line they want to succeed is being met with meh sales. The fact that most companies don't break it down is something that you're going to have to get over. Maybe take another month off from Neowin, and come back with a different user name. I don't know. Do what you need to.

Edited by benthebear, Mar 29 2013, 7:57pm :

maxslaterrobins said,
Microsoft sells the Surface in as many countries as they want. They choose to only offer it in a few.

Comparing the Pro and Air is silly, mainly because they are for totally different markets. Try editing a video on the Pro, or a MP3. No luck, I'm afraid.


What?

Pro is a PC. Not a tablet. Learn before writing articles please.

omgben said,

Nohone, let me ask you this. How is that any different than what you do? The self proclaimed Microsoft fan going on the offensive to protect Microsoft and their products by cherry picking data.


I know you have some fantasy as trying to out me as someone else, but you have it wrong. As for the numbers, I really don't care. I have my Surface RT, and I enjoy it. But the Apple fans show their usual hypocritical ways - claim that everything Microsoft does is a failure because the numbers are not broken down into exact, fine-graned, extremely detailed figures. But here, Max, because it will show to be a negative for Apple, wants that standard applied in one situation but not in another. Making it worse, he is a supposed "journalist" here, when he is actually just given a sanctioned way to attack Microsoft.


The iPad product line is lumped together because that's what companies do. General Motors doesn't report the amount of Camaro 1LTs it sells. They just say 61,648 Camaros sold in 2009. Not only has Microsoft not released the sales figures of its Surface line, but when they do release sales figures, I don't see them breaking down how many Halo 3 edition consoles, Elites, Arcade, Arcade with Kinect, Slims, or 20GB models of the Xbox have been sold. They just say x amount of XBoxs have been sold. Why are you not whining about Microsoft not doing so?

Again, I am not complaining about not giving detailed stats. What I am complaining about is when the detailed numbers are demanded from one company, and called a failure when they don't, but when another company does not break down their numbers, they are proclaimed to be a success. Max broke down the numbers of the Surface into Pro and RT, then compared each of those numbers against all iPads sold.


Breaking the variants down to compare sales is something enthusiasts do when they can't grasp the fact that the product line they want to succeed is being met with meh sales. The fact that most companies don't break it down is something that you're going to have to get over. Maybe take another month off from Neowin, and come back with a different user name. I don't know. Do what you need to.

And that is the crux of my argument - that Max is an Apple enthusiast who cant grasp some facts. Break down the number of Surface sold into two categories, and then compare each of those Surfaces to the total combined number of iPads. There is no difference between an iPod Touch, an iPad Mini, and iPad Full except for screen size, so why doesn't he just combine all those together and then he has a really good argument for claiming the Surface Pro is a failure! I mean if you are going to twist the figures to match the agenda, may as well do it correctly.

maxslaterrobins said,
Try editing a video on the Pro, or a MP3. No luck, I'm afraid.

And this shows that you haven't the slightest clue what Surface and especially the Surface Pro is, or you are a flat out liar. You cannot edit a movie or MP3 on a Surface Pro? Explain why I cannot do the very thing I did just a few days ago. You say it is impossible, so I must have been fooling myself when I took the memory card out of the video camera I have, placed the memory card into my Surface Pro, copied the video locally, edited the movie, plugged in my external DVD burner, burned the movie, and then watched it on my Sony Blu-Ray player? I didn't do that?

And this is exactly why you should not be writing stories about Microsoft software, hardware, or tech. You are focused on your Apple world and do not care about getting the facts correct before putting fingers to keyboard. Video editing is something that Apple supposedly excels at, so it must not be possible to do with Windows, and should only be done with a Mac, correct?

Edited by SoylentG, Mar 29 2013, 7:16pm :

maxslaterrobins said,
Comparing the Pro and Air is silly, mainly because they are for totally different markets. Try editing a video on the Pro, or a MP3. No luck, I'm afraid.

What are you? an idiot?

maxslaterrobins said,
Try editing a video on the Pro, or a MP3. No luck, I'm afraid.

Seriously? You write for a tech blog? How much credibility do you think you've retained after making such as ludicrous comment?

You have a lot of nerve if you feel you have the authority to write anything about tech ever again.

maxslaterrobins said,
Okay: 7 million iPads were sold. 1.5 million Surfaces were sold.

Who's winning?

The Windows Store is winning.

Microsoft's bet is on the platform, not on a single device.

If you're a developer who do you prioritize the 60 million new Windows 8/RT users or the 7 million new iPad users?

ModernMech said,

Seriously? You write for a tech blog? How much credibility do you think you've retained after making such as ludicrous comment?

You have a lot of nerve if you feel you have the authority to write anything about tech ever again.

I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and call him ignorant, but if he writes for a tech blog I'm going to go fully into insulting his intelligence.

maxslaterrobins said,
I said I was “devout” right before I praised Microsoft, something you seem to have forgotten.

Apple dont publish breakdown numbers, but at least they publish numbers. Have Microsoft actually published any numbers? Nope. The only reason we have the vaguest idea is because of Bloomberg. For all we know, Microsoft could've sold 133 Pros and 800 RTs. Who knows?

Of course Microsoft is not going to release numbers. Even if sales are rather good for a new brand and OS they will bleak in comparison to iPad's sales. So Microsoft is going to keep quiet because releasing figures can only result in negative headlines.

So to answer your question 'who is winning?' Apple is, by far. But you have to remember Microsoft just entered the race. They're getting up to speed and lets be honest 1,5 mil Surfaces (new brand) versus 7+ mil iPads (world famous brand) is a great start.

“If you're a developer who do you prioritize the 60 million new Windows 8/RT users or the 7 million new iPad users?”

Why prioritise 60 million Windows 8 users over 400 million iOS users? (Assuming we're talking exclusively about touch devices).

maxslaterrobins said,
“If you're a developer who do you prioritize the 60 million new Windows 8/RT users or the 7 million new iPad users?”

Why prioritise 60 million Windows 8 users over 400 million iOS users? (Assuming we're talking exclusively about touch devices).

Why prioritise [sic] 400 million iOS users over more than 1 billion Windows users?

And are you going to even try to correct your comment above, or are you just going to let it stand? I am guessing let it stand, you are the Apple devotee, you have made your comment and so it therefore must be true, because when you have used it to praise the Apple, how can you be wrong?

maxslaterrobins said,
...

I just took a look at your profile, where it says

I cover Apple here, which is a difficult thing to cover (not many like Apple) so I try and fight the corner as much as I can.

The thing is, we don't have a problem with Apple. What we do have a problem with are people who will say anything to fight for Apple's corner. You have deliberately lied to make Apple look good. And when you are caught in it, you complain that it is everyone's fault but your own, that it is the product of the haters who don't like Apple. It is people like you who have created this whiny "woe is us for being persecuted by the haters" bit so you think you can get away with saying anything you wish to, and when there is disagreement, claim that it is hate driving the disagreement. And yes, it is hate - hate of the whining, hate of the twisting of the truth, and hate of the just plain lying to make sure Apple wins at all costs. And now we have someone working on the inside of Neowin to make sure that you get your agenda out, even if it means tearing down Neowin while it is done.

SoylentG said,

Why prioritise [sic] 400 million iOS users over more than 1 billion Windows users?

Too bad that the [sic] 1 billion Windows users aren't running Win8, whereas the 400 million iOS users do run the same OS...

MFH said,

Too bad that the [sic] 1 billion Windows users aren't running Win8, whereas the 400 million iOS users do run the same OS...

The 400 million number is the total number of devices sold. I had an iPhone, and an iPad. I am still using the iPad but not the iPhone, my iPhone is calculated in that number. How many people upgraded their iPhone and threw theirs in the drawer, but they are still counted as 2 users, so that part of your argument is false. But let's suppose that every one of those devices are in use. Yes, all of them run ios, but many of them are the older versions, since, like my iPhone, the original, could not be upgraded and cannot run any of the recent software. But still, let's pretend they could be upgraded. Your argument still doesn't hold because you are comparing one specific version of Windows to all iOS devices sold. To make everything equal, you would need to compare all copies of Windows sold, which is well over a billion because there was 700 million sold of Win7, and Win7 did not pass XP use until a few months ago, so let's say tree were 600 million copies of XP sold, there were 300 million copies of Vista sold, and, as of a couple months ago, 60 million copies of Win8. Then add in the number of Win1, Win2, Win3, Win3.1, Win95, Win98, WinME, WinNT, and Win2000. That is a lot of "win" compared to the iOS devices sold - all if you want to compare to all the iOS devices sold.

SoylentG said,

To make everything equal, you would need to compare all copies of Windows sold

This is about apps!
WinRT apps don't run on anything prior to Windows 8, therefor: NO you can't sum up all possible Windows numbers. (Not to mention that you forget to cut out old versions of windows that are no longer in use: 600 million XP + 700 million 7 licenses != 1.3 billion Windows devices active.)

So if you as a developer are targeting the app market you have:
400 million iOS devices
480 million Android devices (number from 2012)
60 million Win8 licenses

Even if you consider half to all iOS and Android devices outdated it's still a no-brainer...

Plus just because somebody uses Windows 8 that does not automatically imply he's using the apps & the store. Whereas if you're running iOS/Android you'll surely use the app stores as they are the only source for apps... (the apps are more or less the reason to buy these devices afterall)

MFH said,

This is about apps!
WinRT apps don't run on anything prior to Windows 8, therefor: NO you can't sum up all possible Windows numbers. (Not to mention that you forget to cut out old versions of windows that are no longer in use: 600 million XP + 700 million 7 licenses != 1.3 billion Windows devices active.)

So if you as a developer are targeting the app market you have:
400 million iOS devices
480 million Android devices (number from 2012)
60 million Win8 licenses

Even if you consider half to all iOS and Android devices outdated it's still a no-brainer...

Plus just because somebody uses Windows 8 that does not automatically imply he's using the apps & the store. Whereas if you're running iOS/Android you'll surely use the app stores as they are the only source for apps... (the apps are more or less the reason to buy these devices afterall)

So you first compare all versions of an OS first released 5+ that runs on phones, MP3 players and on tablets (I can see that last comparison) to one specific version of an OS for desktops, laptops, and tablets. Then you complain when I make the argument equal by including all versions of the OS you used as the comparison. Then you turn it into an argument about apps which you will lose at again because I can run millions of apps on my Surface Pro. Then you complain that I need to exclude OS versions that are no longer supported or use, but you include copies of the OS that is no longer supported or used (iPhone OS 1 and those devices are no longer supported or used). Then you say that not everybody uses the apps on one specific store, but still count devices in that 400 million number that do not support current apps, or even apps at all; iPhone OS 1 did not have an app store - Steve Jobs himself said it was not necessary to support apps, the web browser was all you needed.

Change the story to make sure that Apple looks better, right?

SoylentG said,

So you first compare all versions of an OS first released 5+ that runs on phones, MP3 players and on tablets (I can see that last comparison) to one specific version of an OS for desktops, laptops, and tablets.

I didn't compare anything. I commented on your claim, that there were more potential customers on Windows than on other platforms. Something I highly doubt regarding mobile apps.

SoylentG said,

Then you complain when I make the argument equal by including all versions of the OS you used as the comparison.

The comparison would ONLY be valid if all versions of Windows could run WinRT apps...

SoylentG said,

Then you turn it into an argument about apps which you will lose at again because I can run millions of apps on my Surface Pro.

Apps or applications? Users of iOS and so on don't care for productivity applications, they care for mobile apps...

SoylentG said,

Then you complain that I need to exclude OS versions that are no longer supported or use, but you include copies of the OS that is no longer supported or used (iPhone OS 1 and those devices are no longer supported or used).

You wanted to include Windows versions of the LAST DECADE in a comparison of the market for mobile apps! What are you mad? Yet again, no OS prior to Windows 8 runs, WinRT! Therefor you can't include them in a comparison of mobile app market audience.

SoylentG said,

Then you say that not everybody uses the apps on one specific store,

No, I'm saying that running Windows 8 does not imply using the AppStore, as you can use Windows 8 without ever touching Apps. The same is not true for mobile OSes as they are limited to Appstores.
Therefor you can't equate Windows 8 licenses sold to potentials App customers. Whereas on platforms that are limited to appstores as their only source for apps you can make that equation - unless somebody is mad enough to spend a few hundred dollars for a tablet-form web browser...

SoylentG said,
Change the story to make sure that Apple looks better, right?
I don't give a crap about Apple! In fact I hate them... (something I've been pretty vocal around here...) And with Microsoft pulling an Apple I'm starting to hate them too...

MFH said,

Too bad that the [sic] 1 billion Windows users aren't running Win8, whereas the 400 million iOS users do run the same OS...

Windows isn't 1 OS? I'm quite sure it has been since ME's support completely died off.
They are again splitting off from eachother, but under the hood. WinRT is still Windows. Even more Windows then the 360's OS is Windows.
400million iOS. I'm quite sure quite a large proportion of that is from the iPhone's 1 to 3(GS) and I'm even more sure that not all those 400million are running the latest iOS available.

Shadowzz said,

Windows isn't 1 OS? I'm quite sure it has been since ME's support completely died off.

No, Windows is a series of OSes, where only Windows 8 can be targeted as mobile OS for apps. Therefor the amount of licenses for any Windows version predating Windows 8 are totally irrelevant if we are talking about the mobile app market.

And yeah, even the 3GS runs iOS 6... [wiki]

CSharp. said,
Of course they're not giving up on it. It's the future of Windows.

LOL! Microsoft execs are being a bunch of pigheaded morons. It is far from the future of Windows; it is the downfall of Microsoft.

runningnak3d said,

LOL! Microsoft execs are being a bunch of pigheaded morons. It is far from the future of Windows; it is the downfall of Microsoft.

Do you actually believe something this ridiculous or are you just trolling for attention. The company holds a monopoly of the PC industry where they sell hundreds of millions of licenses a year by default. They are building out a tablet OS because that is where growth in the computer industry is happening. They also make several billion dollars of profit each quarter. Reality is that you and I will be dead long before Microsoft ever faces extinction. You may not like the trends happening in the computer industry but Microsoft is going in the direction that consumers are moving with very little threat to their core PC business from Mac OS, Linux, and the fledgling Chrome OS.

Bad Man Duke said,
I suspect we're going to see RT running on a 7" nook this year.

There was an older rumor about a surface reader device. It could be what they call a 7" version since someone already took the mini name.

GP007 said,

There was an older rumor about a surface reader device. It could be what they call a 7" version since someone already took the mini name.
You know, I could see that. Considering how the nook isn't selling as well, maybe their deal with B&N was to push them into their ecosystem as a provider of ebooks and let MS focus on hardware with their Surface line.

I hope if that is the case that whatever they release is along the same price point as the Nook was, or at least close to it.

I've said it before: I think that Microsoft will eventually enable the ability for Windows RT-based machines (Surface RT included, obviously) to run unsigned, or at least easily signed desktop applications. At that point, developers will be able to recompile their desktop applications in cases not dependent upon Win32 (even then, perhaps in some cases that will still work).

The Tegra 3 is simply not as powerful as I thought it would be, which means that things like Photoshop cannot work in full force on it. Similarly, I think that Microsoft played it somewhat strategically by forcing developers to write apps in order to target the devices; this increased the size of their app store tremendously above what it likely would have been if people could use just recompiled to make it work.

ARM processors are only getting faster, and I hope that the Surface 2 pushes a Tegra 5 into the device, but I imagine a Tegra 4 will be all that is out at the time. Combined with LTE--I expect the next go around to anyway--it will be hard to ignore the device, particularly for those users that are willing to go with just an iPad.

I own both types of Surfaces, and I gave the RT to my fiance. She uses it just as she does her MacBook Pro, which is to say for Office, Mail and internet surfing. With some cruddy $300 Windows 8 laptops, it is hard to justify to some people why they should spend $500 on a Surface RT to do what they were going to do on the cheap laptop. I completely think it's better than my iPad, which she ignores completely now in favor of the Surface RT, but it's hard to explain why a simplified version of Windows 8 (Windows RT) is a better buy than a cheap Windows 8 laptop. The same can be said about every other device, including the iPad versus laptops and cheaper tablets, but I think the answer is that Microsoft will eventually flip the switch to equalize the two flavors of Windows 8; they likely want a bevy of apps available for the ARM devices before doing so, because it will only become confusing when things start to appear for only part of the market (x86), but that confusion can be dampered with a flood of existing apps, which should at least mask any "misses" that the limitations of lower processing power brings.

I get what you're saying. I used to rely on a cheap laptop running Windows 8, but now it sits idle with my Surface RT filling its role. It comes down to each user's specific needs. I found myself wanting more mobility and greater battery life, which the Surface RT trounced the laptop in.

I don't think MS will ever allow any other desktop apps to run on it, and as Metro matures, IMO there isn't a whole lot of reason to do so. If the Blue leak is any indication (IMO it is), then desktop will eventually get dropped from RT, or at the very least made completely optional (like media center was).

Bad Man Duke said,
I found myself wanting more mobility and greater battery life, which the Surface RT trounced the laptop in.
I completely agree, but I think you made an educated decision rather than the more common one.

Bad Man Duke said,
I don't think MS will ever allow any other desktop apps to run on it, and as Metro matures, IMO there isn't a whole lot of reason to do so. If the Blue leak is any indication (IMO it is), then desktop will eventually get dropped from RT, or at the very least made completely optional (like media center was).
I hope not because as ARM processors improve, then more capabilities should open up on those machines. I love the "Modern" (renamed Metro) look-and-feel, but it's not the best for all applications, with Visual Studio being a prime example. As a coder in particular, and I imagine many other technical-related jobs, frequently the desktop versions of applications put more into a single screen, or simply provide a higher amount of flexibility through more complicating interfaces that simply do not suit Metro in my opinion. Maybe I'll change my mind over time, but I currently would not want to see an Intellij or Visual Studio version written exclusively in Metro; in particular, I imagine that Metro inevitably adding multi-window (not monitor) support so that I can have the same app open in different sections, potentially on different monitors, such as the case where I am viewing different pieces of code simultaneously, might finally shift me over to all Metro, all the time.

Now, for anything that can fit into the app "world"--small or at least focused--I strongly prefer the Modern approach. It's why I love my Lumia 920 so much and even Mail over Outlook on my Surface Pro. I also look forward to them eventually releasing Metro versions of Word and Excel, although making Excel touch friendly may be a challenge.

I'm there with you. I can't currently imagine running Visual Studio in the Modern environment either. It has a ways to go before that will happen.

The closest I can think of in that sense is Perceptive Pixel's Storyboard application, which may provide the strongest hint where MS could/might eventually take Windows 8's modern UI.

As things mature, I'm not sure the desktop has a future as well - for right now though, I chose the same as you and use my Surface RT as a daily driver. I use RDP app publishing or connection to a VDI environment via RDP if the need arises to run legacy / desktop apps (it does happen, just not a primary work scenario). Given I have a hotspot and phone tethering where I can't get a WiFi connection, I haven't yet been somewhere where I couldn't get work done either.

maxslaterrobins said
Maybe, maybe not. Zune went against the iPod in the same way the RT goes against the iPad.
True, but if Microsoft does it right, they'll have more of a chance with the Surface RT than the Zune.

maxslaterrobins said,
Maybe, maybe not. Zune went against the iPod in the same way the RT goes against the iPad.

Such a dumb analysis. RT is a platform with a shared ecosystem. Zune was not a platform it was a standalone device with a closed ecosystem like Xbox 360. Surface RT could fail and the platform is still a huge success or vice versa. The success of the platform is not tied to a single device. Surface/Windows RT is wholly different than Xbox360/Zune/Kin. Windows RT has more in common with PlaysForSure than with Zune.

Killing off the RT in favor of the pro would be madness, It has the same problems all intel tablets had crap battery life.

Better to have a thin client with close to full os and office even if it cant run legacy applications than 4-6 hours of full windows and then nothing.

Still a whole market that Microsoft isn't targeting which is enterprise, And they are closer to that than anyone else thanks to local group policy, secpol, powershell 3 right on RT.

All they need is RSAT and Domain Join.

TPreston said,
Domain Join.
Would love just this. The device is nearly perfect at this point. Add Domain Join, Cellular Data option, and more disk space and we have a winner. Outlook would be nice. I'm hoping to see a "professional" version of Surface RT with just those options.

RSAT would be clunky and silly as a desktop app, we need a Metro version. Domain join I still don't see as critical if you truly treat them as a mobile/slate device and not a tablet PC. Hence there is a professional version in "Pro" if you need those features.

Keep that cruft off my slate, a perfect BYOD.

Not saying mandatory installation just an optional package, as for "Hence there is a professional version in "Pro" if you need those features." .....And want 4-6 hour battery life included at no extra cost...

The pro version may aswell not exist, Its just the same old same old intel tablet with crap battery life. Not a replacement not an alternative.

Its a whole untapped market.

I guess that is where I'm confused, or at least question how reasonable such an expectation is. It doesn't address the question of why you are treating a slate like a tablet PC in seeking to domain manage it vs ActiveSync.

The Pro is clearly not 'same old same old', but again, they are different device classes. I'd prefer they stay that way instead of this asinine Android inspired notion that they are the same things and serve the same needs.

You know their are Intel Atom based tablets that are just as powerful as the RT, cost around as much, and have hte same / better battery life? With the ability to run full Windows 8?

MrHumpty said,
Would love just this. The device is nearly perfect at this point. Add Domain Join, Cellular Data option, and more disk space and we have a winner. Outlook would be nice. I'm hoping to see a "professional" version of Surface RT with just those options.

I agree but also want to see a surface RT based off newer internal hardware.... tegra 4 which could hopefully power the 1080p display and add in the pen input, upgrade the ram to 4 gigs and add lte support it would be the perfect tablet.

Dashel said,
I guess that is where I'm confused, or at least question how reasonable such an expectation is. It doesn't address the question of why you are treating a slate like a tablet PC in seeking to domain manage it vs ActiveSync.

The Pro is clearly not 'same old same old', but again, they are different device classes. I'd prefer they stay that way instead of this asinine Android inspired notion that they are the same things and serve the same needs.

Domain management of the device is a side benefit to what I want. Access to network resources is why I want domain membership. It's treated as a third class citizen w/o it on a work network.

I don't know why in gods name you consider it "cruft." as it's an optional event. If anything it would really enhance the BYOD. With Office (including Outlook) & Domain Access and Data you've just created a perfect device for most sales people I've worked with.

While I will watch the development of Intel SoC, they don't have anything that competes with Surface RT right now, nor do I want Win8 Pro on my slate.

Pen input and a speed bump (ARM or Intel) are my main wants in Surface II (a secondary flip/position for the stand for a seated, working position sans keyboard would be nice too)

That makes no sense to me Humpty. You don't need to be Domain joined to access network resources or use single sign-on. No 3rd class at all, just a subset of 'pro' functionality.

It is cruft and has no place on a slate or a BYOD device, ActiveSync is sufficient. Its not an optional event, it taints the entire experience, and worse, is generally worthless. Have you not seen the awesome combination of Exchange/Sharepoint 2013 with RT?

Whats next, more demands for a VPN client to map a drive? ROFL

So the RT version of Surface has sold 3 times as much as the Pro tablet, but people want them to kill off the RT? Why are people so dumb?

Why would you get rid of either one? They share the same app store and a sale is a sale.

Dashel said,
That makes no sense to me Humpty. You don't need to be Domain joined to access network resources or use single sign-on. No 3rd class at all, just a subset of 'pro' functionality.

It is cruft and has no place on a slate or a BYOD device, ActiveSync is sufficient. Its not an optional event, it taints the entire experience, and worse, is generally worthless. Have you not seen the awesome combination of Exchange/Sharepoint 2013 with RT?

Whats next, more demands for a VPN client to map a drive? ROFL

Yep, your opinion is not one I would ever consider valuing.

Also, sure, a VPN Client, ability to map a drive, etc. makes perfect sense. RT has every ability to be a full fledged network client. If you choose to limit its usefulness to a slate or BYOD (which apparently has a boxed set of features *allowed*) then that's fine. I on the other hand see full windows in front of me with artificial limits imposed, I'd like to pay to remove those limits to fully realize the potential of the OS and my hardware dollars.

Also, seriously, your assessment of Domain Membership benefits and costs is fueled by ignorance or stupidity.

Oh, I'm quite familiar with the benefits, not that all requirements are equal. You haven't shown an example of where domain join makes more sense than ActiveSync for the embedded slate format, which was the question. Are you going to demand WP8 offer that next too?

As noted above, go get a Clover and be done with it.

MrHumpty said,
The device is nearly perfect at this point. Add Domain Join, Cellular Data option, and more disk space and we have a winner..

Just wanted to quote this....its tragically funny. Microsofts game of "JUST WAIT!", and you fell for it

Dashel said,
Oh, I'm quite familiar with the benefits, not that all requirements are equal. You haven't shown an example of where domain join makes more sense than ActiveSync for the embedded slate format, which was the question. Are you going to demand WP8 offer that next too?

As noted above, go get a Clover and be done with it.

Huh ? How can you apply group policy using ActiveSync ? How can you apply fine grained permissions using ActiveSync ? How do you get it to trust domain certs with ActiveSync ? etc etc etc.

This seems to be a glaring omission from my point of view ?

I will give you the domain certs headache but the (lack of a) need for such fine grained permissions/policy is exactly my point. That management of slates should be like phones, not like Desktops, is my main assertion. (And IT in general is much less institutionalized and micro-managing)

Blackberry didn't survive the iPhone just because it was more secure/finely controlled. Activesync is good enough with 2010 SP1 and later for the majority of companies considering the projected feature set of these devices.

I think that may be where we are talking past each other as MS has muddied the waters. That would become more problematic if RT does become competitive with Desktop functionality, but that then would be part of the normal growth curve anyway.

Right now though, neither competitior offers this and it isn't going to woo consumers or IT pros that bent under the pressure of the iPad either. And I want to stomp out those hateful devices and their imitiations wherever I can.

Edited by Dashel, Mar 30 2013, 4:24pm :

Dashel said,
Oh, I'm quite familiar with the benefits, not that all requirements are equal. You haven't shown an example of where domain join makes more sense than ActiveSync for the embedded slate format, which was the question. Are you going to demand WP8 offer that next too?

As noted above, go get a Clover and be done with it.


As yet intel doesn't offer the battery life and introduces more costs. I find it curious why people seem so entrenched into the ipad functionality limitations just because a device is a slate. It is full windows there is no debate about that.

As far as activesync. Seriously, we're talking about Calendar, Contacts, E-Mail, Tasks. There is more to using a computer than that. Accessing network resources and other clients accessing yours. What is the point of joining any computer to a domain if there is no value there? It's sad this is what apple has left the world to believe... hardware should be limited and only able to do what the seller deems fit.

TBH, I'm happy with my Surface. I would love it's battery life and capabilities with Outlook and domain access while at the office.

Sonne said,
Just wanted to quote this....its tragically funny. Microsofts game of "JUST WAIT!", and you fell for it
Says someone promoting to run BSD. Speaking of waiting results.

I knew exactly what I was getting with my Surface RT. I want the option to pay for more in the RT universe. Otherwise, I'll "just wait" until intel releases their next gen mobile proc and hope I get better battery life.