Microsoft slams Google for its YouTube blocking baloney

Microsoft has published a letter that goes after Google and their antics of blocking the YouTube app. The letter, which is posted below, attacks Google and claims that the reason the application has been blocked are manufactured solely to shut down Microsoft’s application.

Microsoft claims that the reason Google blocked the YouTube app is because they did not use HTML5 for the foundation of the YouTube application. According to Microsoft, this was an odd request since the iOS and Android app currently do not use HTML5 and that building one out, using HTML5, would take significant time and resources. 

We could paraphrase the rest of the letter for you but this is one of those times that Microsoft absolutely nailed it on the delivery. The letter clearly calls into question Google’s love for openness and even the ‘Don’t be evil’ motto, if you read between the lines.

The full letter is posted below:

Posted by David Howard
Corporate Vice President & Deputy General Counsel, Microsoft

You may be wondering what happened to the YouTube app for Windows Phone. Last May, after we launched a much improved app on our platform, Google objected on a number of grounds. We took our app down and agreed to work with Google to solve their issues. This week, after we addressed each of Google’s points, we re-launched the app, only to have Google technically block it.

We know that this has been frustrating, to say the least, for our customers. We have always had one goal: to provide our users a YouTube experience on Windows Phone that’s on par with the YouTube experience available to Android and iPhone users. Google’s objections to our app are not only inconsistent with Google’s own commitment of openness, but also involve requirements for a Windows Phone app that it doesn’t impose on its own platform or Apple’s (both of which use Google as the default search engine, of course).

When we first built a YouTube app for Windows Phone, we did so with the understanding that Google claimed to grow its business based on open access to its platforms and content, a point it reiterated last year. As antitrust enforcers have launched investigations against Google – some of which are still ongoing – the company has reiterated its commitment to openness and its ability to stick to its openness commitments voluntarily.

With this backdrop, we temporarily took down our full-featured app when Google objected to it last May, and have worked hard to accommodate Google’s requests. We enabled Google’s advertisements, disabled video downloads and eliminated the ability for users to view reserved videos. We did this all at no cost to Google, which one would think would want a YouTube app on Windows Phone that would only serve to bring Google new users and additional revenue.

There was one sticking point in the collaboration. Google asked us to transition our app to a new coding language – HTML5. This was an odd request since neither YouTube’s iPhone app nor its Android app are built on HTML5. Nevertheless, we dedicated significant engineering resources to examine the possibility. At the end of the day, experts from both companies recognized that building a YouTube app based on HTML5 would be technically difficult and time consuming, which is why we assume YouTube has not yet made the conversion for its iPhone and Android apps.

For this reason, we made a decision this week to publish our non-HTML5 app while committing to work with Google long-term on an app based on HTML5. We believe this approach delivers our customers a short term experience on par with the other platforms while putting us in the same position as Android and iOS in enabling an eventual transition to new technology. Google, however, has decided to block our mutual customers from accessing our new app.

It seems to us that Google’s reasons for blocking our app are manufactured so that we can’t give our users the same experience Android and iPhone users are getting. The roadblocks Google has set up are impossible to overcome, and they know it.

Google claims that one problem with our new app is that it doesn’t always serve ads based on conditions imposed by content creators. Our app serves Google’s advertisements using all the metadata available to us. We’ve asked Google to provide whatever information iPhone and Android get so that we can mirror the way ads are served on these platforms more precisely. So far at least, Google has refused to give this information to us. We are quite confident that we can solve this issue if Google cooperates, but fixing Google’s concern here is entirely within Google’s control. If Google stops blocking our app, we are happy to work with them on this, entirely at Microsoft’s expense.

Google also says that we are not complying with its “terms and conditions.” What Google really means is that our app is not based on HTML5. The problem with this argument, of course, is that Google is not complying with this condition for Android and iPhone. Again, we’re happy to collaborate with Google on an HTML5 app, but we shouldn’t be required to do something that apparently neither iPhone nor Android has successfully figured out how to do.

Google raises concerns about our branding too. The funny thing about this point is that we’ve been using the same branding continuously since 2010 for an inferior YouTube app. Now that we have an app that gives users a fuller YouTube experience, Google objects to the branding (even though we’ve taken additional steps to clarify that we are the author of the app). Go figure.

Finally, Google cites a degraded experience. Since 2010, Google permitted a Windows Phone app that was far below the iPhone and Android app experiences. Reviews of our new app are unanimous that the experience is much improved, and we’re committed to making adjustments to improve it further. If Google were truly concerned about a degraded experience, it would allow our users access to the new YouTube app they love.

We think it’s clear that Google just doesn’t want Windows Phone users to have the same experience as Android and Apple users, and that their objections are nothing other than excuses. Nonetheless, we are committed to giving our users the experience they deserve, and are happy to work with Google to solve any legitimate concerns they may have. In the meantime, we once again request that Google stop blocking our YouTube app.

Source: Microsoft

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It's getting worse and worse!!!!
Google is now actively blocking the Youtube site for Windows Phone 8 users in new ways.
1. Just search a video through the Search button, when clicking on the video thumbnail the URL gets redirected to a URL with Nomobile=1 in it and doesn't show the video.
2. Search on the youtube site from within WP8 IE10 and look for "Father Ted Radiohead", it shows "The Adobe Flash Player is required for video playback.". Use 'User Agent Switcher' and use the 'Windows Phone' user agent, which advertises itself as WP7, then everything works fine.

So either they are actively boycotting WP8 now, or they just don't choose to support it fully. Either option is bad for the end user. Does Google think you're not entitled to watch even our own uploaded content when you're using the wrong type of mobile phone?

HUGE victory for MSFT.

1) baited google to respond in such force and cause them to take a huge PR hit as they are now the "bad guy of the internet".

2) counted on google's hate of open, and of consumers that don't choose google, to react in this way so that the EU would take notice that google can't be trusted to be open.

3) MSFT knows there are really good 3rd party youtube apps which are well received, but needed to get the EU's attention to the problem as google hopelessly tries to settle with empty promises of commitment to openness and fairness. I'm sure the EU trust busters are having a party just thinking of the massive fines and regulation they will put google under...it will make the MSFT trial look like child's play in comparison for google's bundling is 10X more hideous.

4) The more google does to suppress this app, the more power MSFT gets.

keep it up google. please keep it up. you're just undermining yourself.

i really dont see why google would do this, given the current state of their search engine, youtube and chrome it seems unfeasable that anything other than "being the bad guys" would lead to them losing their place at the top of the market.

The interesting thing...

In recent anti-trust investigation of Google, they have SPECIFICALLY cited YouTube as one example of their 'openness' as their defense for not being anti-competitive.

This is bigger than Microsoft, as it will raise eye brows at the DOJ and the EU.

Whoops.

Why doesn't MS bank roll a good competitor to YouTube. Like vimeo or dailymotion in order to compete head to head with Google. With more competition Google would want to be flexible otherwise lose people to a competitor.

duk3togo said,
Why doesn't MS bank roll a good competitor to YouTube. Like vimeo or dailymotion in order to compete head to head with Google. With more competition Google would want to be flexible otherwise lose people to a competitor.

Because MS don't need any more 'me too' products or services.

I expect this issue is really annoying for Goigle and considering WinPhone market share and importance to Google then they are paying this problem an appropriate amount of attention.

derekaw said,

Because MS don't need any more 'me too' products or services.

I expect this issue is really annoying for Goigle and considering WinPhone market share and importance to Google then they are paying this problem an appropriate amount of attention.

I disagree. If Microsoft invests in something like Vimeo (don't necessarily have to go create a new product) it increases the competitiveness and benefits the consumer. Google is only doing this because everyone uses youtube and they think they have the upper hand. In strolls another popular option and you'll see: Youtube available everywhere, Windows Phone included and the app will be created by Google.

Just pointing it out, but has anyone else noticed that it was written by:


David Howard
Corporate Vice President & Deputy General Counsel, Litigation & Antitrust, Microsoft

if the VP of Litigation & Antitrust is posting this, I could very well see this as Microsoft's explanation for an upcoming lawsuit

You would think Google would want the extra ad revenue. I know people constantly come back with how small the WP market is, etc, etc, but we are talking millions of people. That has to account for a fairly large amount of missed ad revenue, revenue that Google lives on.

In the end, I have MetroTube and PrimeTube which I use not only on a wp device, but also my W8 installs and Tablet. I get all the youtube access without any ads. I even prefer the interface over Google's current revision to the website.

trooper11 said,
You would think Google would want the extra ad revenue. I know people constantly come back with how small the WP market is, etc, etc, but we are talking millions of people. That has to account for a fairly large amount of missed ad revenue, revenue that Google lives on.

In the end, I have MetroTube and PrimeTube which I use not only on a wp device, but also my W8 installs and Tablet. I get all the youtube access without any ads. I even prefer the interface over Google's current revision to the website.

Google will finally get that revenue as sooner or later (probably sooner) the MS app will be approved.

This exercise of blocking Microsoft's Youtube app looks a lot like telling your dog to sit still until you give it permission to eat, rather than an actual technical problem.

You know, I like MS and will continue to do so. I like their products and I use them everyday. Yea, Google may be playing hard ball here but what to they expect? All MS has been doing is attacking Google on every front...spreading fear and hate...and Google has kept silent...until now. Now they have something to lash out at MS with and and MS is now playing the victim. You reap what you sow.

The only people hurting here with both MS and Google fighting are the consumers....the users. And it is absolutely moronic to think anyone here is the good guy. Anyone who takes their personal emotion out of this will see that. And if not, then they are blinded by one side or the other.

Google is just giving some back to MS for what they have been doing to Google for years with their attack campaigns. Is it right? No. Is it childish? Yes. Is it surprising? No. But spare me this MS is the Good guy garbage and Google is evil. They both have their good qualities, and they both have their faults. The only fools here are the ones who believe that anyone in this is innocent.

Attacking? Hardly. Virtually every company on the planet compares their products to the competitions. It's pretty embarrassing to see Google get their panties in a wad over harmless comparison ads.

hagjohn said,
Attacking? Hardly. Virtually every company on the planet compares their products to the competitions. It's pretty embarrassing to see Google get their panties in a wad over harmless comparison ads.

Yes, attacking. This isnt comparison. This is MS trying to scare people away from Google and get customers plain and simple. MS RT against iPad ads are much different and actually compare features. MS against Google is Google sucks, they should be feared, choose us instead. Hench the scroogled campaign and them joining an organization specifically to go after Google.

Running ads against your competition is one thing. Intentionally blocking your competitor's users from your service is another.

Just look at the maps blocking a bit back. Google admitted they were intentionally blocking Windows Phone users and without any real reason other than just to stick it to Microsoft.

You don't see Microsoft blocking Chrome from being installed on Windows.

techbeck said,

Yes, attacking. This isnt comparison. This is MS trying to scare people away from Google and get customers plain and simple. MS RT against iPad ads are much different and actually compare features. MS against Google is Google sucks, they should be feared, choose us instead. Hench the scroogled campaign and them joining an organization specifically to go after Google.

google has been an angel so far? well let's recall their patent trolling with Motorola over windows and xbox, which the EU and the US both slapped down as anti-competitive. Besides, you need to understand the following:

GOOGLE IS UNDER SCRUTINY. not Microsoft. they are past that. This move is stupid of google no matter how they justify it. When the anti-trust cases fall hard on them, "I was because MSFT ads" won't save them. Google's behavior brought this scrutiny, they are the only ones to blame. And if they are such immature company that can't think cool and stay out of trouble, they deserve what they have coming their way.

google just helped MSFT by defeating itself in court!!!!

neonspark said,

google has been an angel so far? well let's recall their patent trolling with Motorola over windows and xbox, which the EU and the US both slapped down as anti-competitive. Besides, you need to understand the following:

Did I say Google was an angel or innocent in this? Here, let me quote myself...

Google is just giving some back to MS for what they have been doing to Google for years with their attack campaigns. Is it right? No. Is it childish? Yes. Is it surprising? No.

I even commented that what MS AND GOOGLE are doing is hurting the consumers.

Please read everything next time.

Personally, I think Microsoft should release the source code for the original version of the updated youtube app, the one that didn't show ads, and let everyone just compile it with their own security token and sideload it.

Hit power button > Slide up to unlock > Open IE > go to "youtube.com"

How I access youtube on my WP8 device. Silly google...just looking like douches.

norseman said,
Why don't you just pin a shortcut to your start screen?

Don't use youtube enough to justify a prime spot on my start screen.

This is what is called Karma, Microsoft. All those years you played the part of the bully. So... how does it feel on the receiving end?

Anyway, Microsoft & Google can have their ****ing contest all they want. I'm done with both of them.

COKid said,
This is what is called Karma, Microsoft. All those years you played the part of the bully. So... how does it feel on the receiving end?

Anyway, Microsoft & Google can have their ****ing contest all they want. I'm done with both of them.

Karma? well what do you think google has coming their way with the EU? karma indeed. google just defeated itself with this LOL. oh, there is karma coming back. google's way!!

Actually YouTube app not working with wp is so minor (5% penetration?). Android is safe not to worry. This d*ck move by Google will haunt them just like Vista did. Open source my a*s

Google = Youtube is my house, my house, my rules!.
MS (whining) = i don't care, if you don't give me access then i will force the door.

If MS really wants youtube on WP8 then MS should make a deal, not an "ultimatum" but a real deal, for example freeing ex-fat license for android ;-)

Brony said,
Google = Youtube is my house, my house, my rules!.
MS (whining) = i don't care, if you don't give me access then i will force the door.

If MS really wants youtube on WP8 then MS should make a deal, not an "ultimatum" but a real deal, for example freeing ex-fat license for android ;-)

And miss out on that revenue stream?! Android is the only successful mobile division within Microsoft!

Kalint said,

And miss out on that revenue stream?! Android is the only successful mobile division within Microsoft!

What planet are you living on?

how about blocking all accesss to youtube, gmail and google search on all versions of Windows ? It's their platform after all and if you're not happy you can always switch to some scroogle OS. Screw Google.

C#Rocks said,
how about blocking all accesss to youtube, gmail and google search on all versions of Windows ? It's their platform after all and if you're not happy you can always switch to some scroogle OS. Screw Google.

Same as with this current issue, Windows users don't care the slightest about whatever problem Microsoft has with Google or Google with Microsoft. If they see their ability to access services removed all the backslash would go for (in that case) Microsoft.

Not a smart move, I think.

Dot Matrix said,

What planet are you living on?


are you serious? Even bill admits they screwed up with windows mobile and phone. You work there you should know!

C#Rocks said,
how about blocking all accesss to youtube, gmail and google search on all versions of Windows ? It's their platform after all and if you're not happy you can always switch to some scroogle OS. Screw Google.

this guy, lol

Brony said,
Google = Youtube is my house, my house, my rules!.
MS (whining) = i don't care, if you don't give me access then i will force the door.

If MS really wants youtube on WP8 then MS should make a deal, not an "ultimatum" but a real deal, for example freeing ex-fat license for android ;-)

that's what MSFT said to the EU when the anti-trust inquiries began. how did that argument work out for them? google should be smarter, and more open to stay out of trouble given they are the #1 company being watched for power abuse.

Google fears Microsoft and we all know it-Google's action was a left blow to them , a poor reaction. All of Google 's services are going down , excluding Android perhaps yet Ms has a soldier to fight them on any frontline. And soon those soldiers will evolve rapidly.

Android phones are still outselling Windows phones by about 50 to 1. I think Google are pretty safe with Android.

Javik said,
Android phones are still outselling Windows phones by about 50 to 1. I think Google are pretty safe with Android.

solidifying the case against google under the EU and DOJ.

Well after this and having a WP8 GDR2 handset that DOES NOT have a functioning Google account / Gmail...I can safely say that Google can get knotted.

"Attack" is not synonymous with "criticize." This is a well-thought-out statement that lays out the issues that Microsoft is experiencing with developing a YouTube app for the WP platform that is on par with the ones for IOS and Android. Is it critical of Google? Yes, but it is not an attack.

Google is getting worse and worse as time passes, and they ought to be careful because what they are doing here is just as bad if not worse than the anticompetitive behavior that almost got Microsoft broken up a few years back.

I applaud Microsoft for being transparent on the issue, I am sure Google will have a statement as well. Probably along the lines of Microsoft not working with Google and releasing with out their knowledge

How funny would that be if they made a new scroogled video of the WP YouTube app not working. Greatest form of hilarity and irony.

Dot Matrix said,

It would significantly impact Google's ad revenue stream.

It would also p*** off the hundreds upon millions of Windows users that access YouTube every day. It's Microsoft's product and I guess they can do what they want with it, but like it or not blocking YouTube to b***hslap Google would impact the image of Microsoft very negatively, perhaps even terminally.

You are right, MS wouldn't do that, but with the help of tech blogger worldwide, there's no denying the negative impact Google has done. Not to mention the anti trust.

Javik said,

It would also p*** off the hundreds upon millions of Windows users that access YouTube every day. It's Microsoft's product and I guess they can do what they want with it, but like it or not blocking YouTube to b***hslap Google would impact the image of Microsoft very negatively, perhaps even terminally.

CygnusOrion said,
That only hurts Microsoft, not Google.

oh it would hurt google alright. but MSFT knows this only brings EU, DOJ attention, a lesson google is about to learn courtesy of MSFT which baited the fools at google in a textbook example of how to use your competitor's hate of open against them.

neonspark said,

oh it would hurt google alright. but MSFT knows this only brings EU, DOJ attention, a lesson google is about to learn courtesy of MSFT which baited the fools at google in a textbook example of how to use your competitor's hate of open against them.

The DOJ has no recourse to get involved. Google are not illegally harming competition, they're doing nothing to stop Microsoft offering their own competing video service, they just won't give them YouTube until their TOS are satisfied. Competition law does not oblige them to give Windows Phone access via a YouTube app.

S3P€hR said,
If I were microsoft I would have blocked exchange support for android. just to show them who is the boss.

I believe Google already has done this. At least they announced they were.

techbeck said,

I believe Google already has done this. At least they announced they were.


no they cannot because all corporate people connect to exchange and check their emails and calendar appointment just fine. If they were blocked their phone would have been useless at work right? In corporate environment google has nothing to say.

S3P€hR said,
If I were microsoft I would have blocked exchange support for android. just to show them who is the boss.

While both companies have their differences, Microsoft won't go out of their way to screw the mutual customers, which is all that this would accomplish.

S3P€hR said,
If I were microsoft I would have blocked exchange support for android. just to show them who is the boss.

This makes absolutely no sense...

1. Google, and all others, pay Microsoft to license the exchange protocol. So Microsoft can't deny Google a service that Google has paid for. Their only recourse would be to not license it to Google which would be in violation of their anti-trust agreements in the EU and US.

2. Google wrote ALL the code for Android and Gmail Exchange support. AS IS REQUIRED by Microsoft.

3. Exchange support is adherence to a protocol. If Microsoft broke that protocol to smite Google they would break it for everything, including their own products. The classic saying for this is "to cut off ones nose to spit one's face".

Microsoft isn't in a position to retaliate on mobile. None of their services are being sought on Android as much as they are on their products.

LogicalApex said,

This makes absolutely no sense...

1. Google, and all others, pay Microsoft to license the exchange protocol. So Microsoft can't deny Google a service that Google has paid for. Their only recourse would be to not license it to Google which would be in violation of their anti-trust agreements in the EU and US.

2. Google wrote ALL the code for Android and Gmail Exchange support. AS IS REQUIRED by Microsoft.

3. Exchange support is adherence to a protocol. If Microsoft broke that protocol to smite Google they would break it for everything, including their own products. The classic saying for this is "to cut off ones nose to spit one's face".

Microsoft isn't in a position to retaliate on mobile. None of their services are being sought on Android as much as they are on their products.

I think they retaliated perfectly, by cutting on google leveraging its dominant position against a competitor to kill the competition essentially. This is exactly what google is being accused to do around the world with their services, MSFT just needed to prove it in court, and they just gave the EU and DOJ a gift from heaven: google showed its true colors.

Google needs to just let this one go and let it happen. There is no need to hold up anything. If they feel that WP OS is not going to make a dent in their dominance then they should not fear it or reject Microsoft's requests or delay them.

Openness cannot be determined based on differing viewpoints or business conflicts. Being open means just that being open. Hypocritical at the very least on Google's part.

Microsoft has spent the money on the development and if they can allow for all the CRAP apps and malware that happens on their OPENess then they need to get over it and make an official YOUTUBE app or let MS do it for them.

Glad MS address it.

WinMunkee said,
Well, it sounds like Google is kind of scared then doesn't it? Especially with the unexpected success of the Lumia 520.

What? So Google is scared of MS so they are blocking Youtube? I would like to think many people are choosing a certain platform and their decision doesnt revolve around Youtube.

WinMunkee said,
Well, it sounds like Google is kind of scared then doesn't it? Especially with the unexpected success of the Lumia 520.

Do you read what you write?

techbeck said,

What? So Google is scared of MS so they are blocking Youtube? I would like to think many people are choosing a certain platform and their decision doesnt revolve around Youtube.

irrelevant. the issue at hand is not really the fact that it is youtube, it's the fact that they are actively seeking to block open access when they ask everybody else do be open. Even so that is just a moral point. But the bigger issue is the LEGAL point. Google is under huge scrutiny for precisely this behavior and they just scroogled themselves in court!

neonspark said,

irrelevant. the issue at hand is not really the fact that it is youtube, it's the fact that they are actively seeking to block open access when they ask everybody else do be open. Even so that is just a moral point. But the bigger issue is the LEGAL point. Google is under huge scrutiny for precisely this behavior and they just scroogled themselves in court!

No, it is relevant to the comment I was replying to.

And Google requires all 3rd party apps to be written in HTML5. And all 3rd party apps are written in HTML5 except for Microsoft. MS doesnt want HTML5, but if they would of just complied, I doubt the app would of been blocked.

techbeck said,

What? So Google is scared of MS so they are blocking Youtube? I would like to think many people are choosing a certain platform and their decision doesnt revolve around Youtube.

Yes, Google's main focus is software and hardware now, just like Microsoft. Microsoft is indeed a direct competitor to Google.

Dot Matrix said,
What can HTML5 do that C# can't? What's wrong with a native app, Google?
I'll have to agree, I really hate HTML5 apps Native apps are always better

Google needs to grow the heck up! These juvenile games are just ridiculous. Where's the government with their anti-trust hearings now?

S3P€hR said,
come on Microsoft buy hulu and kiss youtube ass and we get 100% google free.

Hulu and Youtube are different services intended for different things. Aslo, Hulu is not for sale anymore. What needs to happen is another service that rivals Youtube. Currently there is really no competition. Hulu is more like Amazon's service or Netflix.

techbeck said,

Hulu and Youtube are different services intended for different things. Aslo, Hulu is not for sale anymore. What needs to happen is another service that rivals Youtube. Currently there is really no competition. Hulu is more like Amazon's service or Netflix.

It is now, but that doesn't mean someone can't buy Hulu and turn it into more of a Youtube service + all the stuff it does now.

S3P€hR said,
come on Microsoft buy hulu and kiss youtube ass and we get 100% google free.

comparing youtube to hulu.... aha.... AHAHAHAHAHAHA

Microsoft has tried to patent troll Android out of existence, why the hell should Google play nice with them? Tough poop I say, sometimes you reap what you sow.

Javik said,
Microsoft has tried to patent troll Android out of existence, why the hell should Google play nice with them? Tough poop I say, sometimes you reap what you sow.

So you'd rather Google be petty in return instead of rising above such behaviour?

Both are disgusting companies, Microsoft however doesn't pretend otherwise.

You're saying one should let Google use unlicensed technology and code and make sh*tloads of money from it? And do not for a moment believe the hype Android is free.. it comes at a hefty price or at least with a hefty pay check for Google by harvesting the data they are getting from any phone using the OS.

How is expecting payment for what you own and worked for trolling? do you even understand the concept? It's not like MSFT goes out buying companies for their patents only to use that to demand license payments from others..

Javik said,
Microsoft has tried to patent troll Android out of existence, why the hell should Google play nice with them? Tough poop I say, sometimes you reap what you sow.

Well, that's a stupid analysis of the patent wars in Android.

In case you've been out of the loop, Microsoft was not trolling Android out of existence, but pursuing licensing of the patents being illegally used in Android.

Microsoft actually had a pretty good chance of blocking Android, but they didn't followed that path as licensing is more lucrative for them. Microsoft gets a lot of money out of Android from manufacturers.

So, if I was to make an analysis like yours, a more correct one would be that Google is ****ed off they can't steal whatever they want and use it in their products. Although they do "steal" open source in my opinion, they're just really smart at it.

Athernar said,

So you'd rather Google be petty in return instead of rising above such behaviour?

Both are disgusting companies, Microsoft however doesn't pretend otherwise.

Not at all, I just said I understand why they do it. I know it's unlikely to get an unbiased opinion on a site like Neowin but Microsoft aren't being victimised here, Google have absolutely no obligation to work with them whatsoever.

Javik said,

Not at all, I just said I understand why they do it. I know it's unlikely to get an unbiased opinion on a site like Neowin but Microsoft aren't being victimised here, Google have absolutely no obligation to work with them whatsoever.

So I take it you'd have no problem if Microsoft patched Windows to drop all connections to Google servers as Google can be a vector for malware/illegal material, while not doing the same for Bing?

Because that's essentially what is going on here, Google holding Microsoft to a standard they themselves do not. Also known as hypocrisy.

"Google have absolutely no obligation to work with them whatsoever."

I very much agree with this. YouTube is not an essential service nor is it unique.

paulheu said,
You're saying one should let Google use unlicensed technology and code and make sh*tloads of money from it? And do not for a moment believe the hype Android is free.. it comes at a hefty price or at least with a hefty pay check for Google by harvesting the data they are getting from any phone using the OS.

How is expecting payment for what you own and worked for trolling? do you even understand the concept? It's not like MSFT goes out buying companies for their patents only to use that to demand license payments from others..

Because open source.

A lot of FOSS proponents don't care if open source software implements patented functionality. They believe that, by virtue of being open source, all patent law is invalid.

If faced with undeniable evidence that a FOSS app ripped off patented behavior, they launch into soapboxing about the evils of software patents in general.

People don't like having the conversation right in front of them when they can scratch their anti-authority itch instead.

DonC said,
"Google have absolutely no obligation to work with them whatsoever."

I very much agree with this. YouTube is not an essential service nor is it unique.

Skype, Office and other MS services on Android are not essential either but MS don't block them or remove them from the Play Store whenever they feel like it, do they?

neo158 said,

Skype, Office and other MS services on Android are not essential either but MS don't block them or remove them from the Play Store whenever they feel like it, do they?

It's to some extent a matter of marketshare and what amount of potential users you can afford to ignore. With Android making some 80% of the smartphone market it'd be commercial suicide for Skype to not support that OS.

On the other hand, Google can afford without problems missing the % of users running WP (who can still access Youtube through other means anyway, so you can see why Google feels like they can drag their feet for as long as they want).

Javik said,
Microsoft has tried to patent troll Android out of existence, why the hell should Google play nice with them? Tough poop I say, sometimes you reap what you sow.

Microsoft has NOT directly targeted Google, and what patents they have enforced are consistent with previous rulings. Microsoft couldn't leave Android devices using their code when they have made agreements with other Commercial Linux distributions like Red Hat.

Microsoft has a much 'bigger' patent suitcase they haven't even threatened Google with, YET.

Interesting. MS really laid out the information in this response to Google.

So basically, MS is saying that Google was trying to require MS to build an HTML5 based app (something not required on iOS or Android). MS and Google both investigated that option and found that would take quite a bit of time and resources to do that.

So MS decided to put out the App they had but with the modifications Google was looking for such as ad viewing, etc. They still plan to do an html-5 based app, but this is necessary for a short term solution.

Google then blocks the app mostly because it does not properly feed all of their ads. MS says its more then willing to make the change, but that Google has refused to give MS the info it needs to support the method of serving ads Google wants.

So it comes down to who you believe I guess. Google says its up to MS to fix this issue and MS says its up to Google to fix the issue. MS does go out of its way to say over and over that they are more than willing to work with Google and make it work. Google doesn't talk like that.

I don't know how to believe, but I get the feeling its a little of both. Google probably was holding back info, or at least delaying its release to MS, so MS decided to take this public by releasing the app as it is, maybe putting more pressure on Google.

"We think it's clear that Google just doesn't want Windows Phone users to have the same experience as Android and Apple users, and that their objections are nothing other than excuses."
This is what I think it is. I am closing my google accounts. not just because google services are bad, because google has became a giant evil. I don't see open google anymore. They are hurting consumers.

S3P€hR said,
"We think it's clear that Google just doesn't want Windows Phone users to have the same experience as Android and Apple users, and that their objections are nothing other than excuses."
This is what I think it is. I am closing my google accounts. not just because google services are bad, because google has became a giant evil. I don't see open google anymore. They are hurting consumers.

Cool story. I myself will continue to use products from both and not let emotion and companies fighting influence what I use. I own MS, Google, and Apple products and will continue to do so. Unless I found out one of the companies are killing kittens......

techbeck said,

Cool story. I myself will continue to use products from both and not let emotion and companies fighting influence what I use. I own MS, Google, and Apple products and will continue to do so. Unless I found out one of the companies are killing kittens......


I was like you until they started forcing people to use their ecosystem. I like Microsoft because I used to use chrome and other google services just fine on windows. even there are Microsoft application for android. but google and apple are anal ones. apple used to be only use our hardware kinda of ******* it but now google is being as equally anal as apple not letting their users have freedom.

S3P€hR said,

I was like you until they started forcing people to use their ecosystem.

I never felt forced to use anything from Google. I keep using the products/services I want from Google and others.

techbeck said,

I never felt forced to use anything from Google. I keep using the products/services I want from Google and others.

because you don't use windows phone. youtube is specially a service that doesn't have any real competitor. so we are in the mercy of evil google

S3P€hR said,

because you don't use windows phone. youtube is specially a service that doesn't have any real competitor. so we are in the mercy of evil google

Youtube is a non essential program so it wouldnt matter to me.

YouTube is a big deal to some people in the same way as Instagram. They're non-essential services but they can be the make or break in which phone to get.

techbeck said,

Cool story. I myself will continue to use products from both and not let emotion and companies fighting influence what I use. I own MS, Google, and Apple products and will continue to do so. Unless I found out one of the companies are killing kittens......

Maybe this will change your mind http://www.theguardian.com/tec...users-privacy-email-lawsuit

Not killing kittens but not caring about your privacy!!!!

DonC said,
YouTube is a big deal to some people in the same way as Instagram. They're non-essential services but they can be the make or break in which phone to get.

Maybe for you, but for me (and maybe 70% of people I know), a Youtube app could very well be the tipping point between two competiting OSes. If you just looked at the amount of Internet time/data spent watching YouTube videos, I think the data makes it very clear that Youtube is an extremely important, essential service. If I walked into a store, even though I like most all Microsoft products, I would not purchase a Windows Phone unless it had Youtube support. It's just a very, very large part of the experience - look at the old Zune HD users (including me) who tried to and failed at just about every attempt to bring Youtube to the Zune HD. Not saying that was the reason for it's downfall, just saying if my Zune had Youtube support I don't think I would have felt the need to upgrade for quite a while longer.

but Google has no problem YouTube App for iOS ?

It seems to us that Google's reasons for blocking our app are manufactured so that we can't give our users the same experience Android and iPhone users are getting.

The roadblocks Google has set up are impossible to overcome, and they know it.


So, in other word, Microsoft indirectly admit that:

Android > WP ?
IPhone > WP ?
WP is inferior than both ?

Torolol said,

So, in other word, Microsoft indirectly admit that:

Android > WP ?
IPhone > WP ?
WP is inferior than both ?

No, not the device/OS...the Youtube experience.

Umm... no. If you read the letter properly they said the same "YouTube experience", they're not referring to the OS as a whole.

Torolol said,
but Google has no problem YouTube App for iOS ?


So, in other word, Microsoft indirectly admit that:

Android > WP ?
IPhone > WP ?
WP is inferior than both ?


people actually use ios / android; yes

Edited by Kalint, Aug 15 2013, 9:08pm :

*grabs a popcorn and drink Coke* Jedi Microsoft vs Sith Google were having war against each others, so Apple will help MS's side. Darth Android wants to rule the galaxy.

If it's like MS says and Google is blocking this because it's not HTML5 and doesn't serve up ads the same way because they don't give MS all the data needed to do so then screw it. I'm sure there's some legal action that can be taken if this can't be worked out otherwise.

This will be the final step from Microsoft's side because if Google doesn't co-operate, it will not only give an opportunity to Microsoft to file an anti-competitive case but these various scenarios will strengthen its case as to how Google is abusing its dominant position through Android/YouTube.

MOS6510 said,
Agreed.... Microsoft knows how to cover its legal but. The ball is in Google's court.

According to Google those platforms which don't have large marketshare need to use HTML5 also Google says that it won't make the App for those platforms aka Windows Phone but take a look at PS Vita and Wii U both of which have native YouTube apps made by Google and have a low marketshare. (Just pointing this out for Google supporters and don't mean anything else)


I know the solution why don't Google charges windows phone a subscription for Youtube you know like Microsoft charges a subscription to android users to use the water-down office they have on android unlike how it's free on windows phone and Surface.

you know since Microsoft is not abusing it's monopoly on office or Xbox to make people choose windows phone or surface

Also Microsoft does the same thing with the surface, putting artificial restrictions on why they don't want other companies making apps for the desktop part of winRT. they won't let firefox or google chrome to make browsers for it.

Edited by Superboy, Aug 16 2013, 3:18am :

norseman said,
I'm waiting to hear from techbeck.

Really? Now this is a Troll if I every did see one. And I dont call people trolls. I said exactly what I said i would in the other post. That if this is indeed what Google is doing, then its bad on Google's part. But I am not going to be a moron about it and believe just what MS spouts out.

At least I am true to my word. Cannot say the same for most here.

Edited by techbeck, Aug 15 2013, 8:37pm :

It's not like the Microsoft rep speaking here is a tech blogger or BS analyst. He is from Microsoft's council team. Things he says can get him and Microsoft in trouble if they aren't true.

Well, he keeps repeating that the apps on Android and iOS aren't HTML5, but well, they're made by Google. Google can do with their own service whatever they want if you ask me.

Ambroos said,
Well, he keeps repeating that the apps on Android and iOS aren't HTML5, but well, they're made by Google. Google can do with their own service whatever they want if you ask me.
I doubt anybody will argue with that. I don't believe that's the point of their post. It's more of getting the process out in the open and attempting to shift blame to google to effect public opinion.

Very true, HTML5 is a very strange requirement though. I am sure they have their reasons but I can't think of a single thing HTML5 would offer that would be more secure etc.

CygnusOrion said,
No they can't if they are in a monopoly position, which they are.
Frankly, I'm not one that cares about perceived monopolies.

But, to take that head on. Of course they have a monopoly on their service. Vimeo is a viable alternative and very popular. Are we going to start calling Youtube a "Market" or a "Utility" therefore Google has no say in who and how their service is accessed? If so, who gets to decide? In the end the Market will force Google to let something happen.

Google has an 87% share of the smartphone market, and 36% of the online video market (as of 2010). This includes competitors like myspace, daily motion, and, well, all 146,323,340 .com, .net, and .org domains. At this point in time, I would assume Google would be worried about anti-trust issues for watching video on mobile devices.

Ambroos said,
Well, he keeps repeating that the apps on Android and iOS aren't HTML5, but well, they're made by Google. Google can do with their own service whatever they want if you ask me.

Would "Microsoft is Windows manufacturer so it can do anything he wants with it, like restricting apps that can be run, etc" sound just as right to you?

Ambroos said,
Well, he keeps repeating that the apps on Android and iOS aren't HTML5, but well, they're made by Google. Google can do with their own service whatever they want if you ask me.

It is a ridiculous demand that doesn't impact Google in the slightest... They only wish to keep a YouTube App off of WP (and make Microsoft spin their tires at the same time.

Ambroos said,
Well, he keeps repeating that the apps on Android and iOS aren't HTML5, but well, they're made by Google. Google can do with their own service whatever they want if you ask me.

Google have no intention of creating their apps for Windows Phone which leaves MS with two options, create the app themselves or leave their users with inferior versions compared to other platforms!!!!

Heartripper said,

Would "Microsoft is Windows manufacturer so it can do anything he wants with it, like restricting apps that can be run, etc" sound just as right to you?

well they are trying to go that rout with the windows store in a windows phone and tablets you can only install Microsoft approved apps, which in Android you can install whatever you want. And the way it looks in the future they will implement it in the desktop if they don't completely get rid of it.

It appears Google has a problem with MS...not that it has a problem with people using YouTube on WP. Otherwise, like others stated in the other post, they would go after Metrotube as well.

Curious what Google will counter with....if anything. But I am sure many will already make up their minds reading this without waiting for the other side. If this is indeed what is happening, not good.

techbeck said,
It appears Google has a problem with MS...not that it has a problem with people using YouTube on WP. Otherwise, like others stated in the other post, they would go after Metrotube as well.

Curious what Google will counter with....if anything. But I am sure many will already make up their minds reading this without waiting for the other side. If this is indeed what is happening, not good.

Sure, i'll wait to see what Google says but it'll be more hot air I bet. They originally wanted ads and to not d/l vids. MS did that and now they want other things, talk about moving the goal posts. I also get a kick out of the bit where he says they complain about the ads not being the right ones but yet refuse to give the needed data to make them show correctly. Talk about facepalm.

It's not like this is the first time Google actively tries to block their services in Windows Phone. If you follow Windows Phone news, Google does this crap regularly with their services, Youtube is just the most shameless one.

Microsoft gets all the **** for being "closed". Google gets praise for being open. Wake up.

techbeck said,
Seems like you dont need to wait and have already made up your mind.

It's hard not to form a early opinion when you see that they're not blocking other youtube WP apps, I just checked, metrotube works fine and it doesn't follow any of Googles ToS. So, why just the app MS makes?

GP007 said,

It's hard not to form a early opinion when you see that they're not blocking other youtube WP apps, I just checked, metrotube works fine and it doesn't follow any of Googles ToS. So, why just the app MS makes?

True...but I just like to hear both sides before accusing one or the other. But I am not sure if Google will even make a response to this considering they normally keep quiet.

techbeck said,

True...but I just like to hear both sides before accusing one or the other. But I am not sure if Google will even make a response to this considering they normally keep quiet.

You've already heard both sides, Google was the first to issue a statement...

Seketh said,

You've already heard both sides, Google was the first to issue a statement...

And MS issued an initial statement as well. Still have not heard from Google on exactly what TOS MS violated this time. Just info from "sources" and not Google itself.

Google shows a compete lack or respect for the copyrights of 1000s of videos it hosts, has a complete disregard for the patent system (whether you like it or not) and they expect a company to respect its Terms of Service... What a bunch of a***h***s.

MOS6510 said,
Google shows a compete lack or respect for the copyrights of 1000s of videos it hosts, has a complete disregard for the patent system (whether you like it or not) and they expect a company to respect its Terms of Service... What a bunch of a***h***s.

Lol the hate.

adrynalyne said,
Heh...patent system is broken and you know it. The only people who defend it are the ones litigating.

I really hate policemen, every time I steal they chase me. The law must be broken those shops should give their stuff for free. The only ones who like the law are the shops.

Its funny Google says dont be evil, but they certainly seem to prefer dabbling in evil and Apple says think different, but they want you to all think the same so they can sell sell sell.

Dot Matrix said,
Microsoft just dropped the mic!

and hits its own foot because it just got reminded to never neglect the mobile market again.

I doubt it, Android rises faster than iOS and had almost 80% of the market (79% according to last data i know). The problem here is that MS screwed Google before and now for Google is payback time.

Shadowzz said,
I get this response and its a nicely worded one, but feels like to much one way finger pointing though.

Pretty much...hopefully we will hear what Google says about this soon. Sure it will keep going back and forth tho. This isnt the end. Next blow by Google unless they toss in the towel.

techbeck said,

Next blow by Google unless they toss in the towel.

I actually hope they toss it, violated TOS or not. As long as Microsoft's app doesn't get in the way of their revenue stream this looks like a non issue.

Then again I can't really blame Google for poking MS, but there's nothing worthy they'll be getting out of it.

ichi said,

I actually hope they toss it, violated TOS or not. As long as Microsoft's app doesn't get in the way of their revenue stream this looks like a non issue.

Then again I can't really blame Google for poking MS, but there's nothing worthy they'll be getting out of it.

Microsoft could have some real fun and simply roll out a windows update that blocks all android based devices connecting to PC. Google using Microsoft's PC OS to piggy back on providing Google's customers with revenue that should be going to Windows Phones. /s

Yeah, the entire thing is stupid and pathetic.

Shadowzz said,
I get this response and its a nicely worded one, but feels like to much one way finger pointing though.

Personally, I think they have some issues to work out. Thus, I'd rather take the backseat than be a cheerleader for either side as if I'd have something to gain from it.

They sure as hell both got issues to work out.
Google became big enough to finally be a company with the strength, public opinion behind them and balls to jerk around with MS.
And MS can pretty much only fight back by pulling Google's dick moves out into the media.
Few years ago, MS usually stayed rather quiet, just like they still are with lots of things. (still think they should stay silent in most cases... i.e. scroogled campaign)
Thing is, MS has much, much more experience with these things. They already been through this period Google is going through, where their power seems limitless.

Hopefully this fighting between Google and MS (MS does it just as bad, just seems to've taken the friendly giant approach) will balance out in a not to distant future.
All they're both doing is dirt throwing most of the time.

sagum said,

Microsoft could have some real fun and simply roll out a windows update that blocks all android based devices connecting to PC. Google using Microsoft's PC OS to piggy back on providing Google's customers with revenue that should be going to Windows Phones. /s

Yeah, the entire thing is stupid and pathetic.

Microsoft doesn't own your computer so no they cant do that and I don't think thats even possible lol sd card is recognized as just another storage device not as android once you plug it in as file transfer mode.

ichi said,

I actually hope they toss it, violated TOS or not. As long as Microsoft's app doesn't get in the way of their revenue stream this looks like a non issue.

Then again I can't really blame Google for poking MS, but there's nothing worthy they'll be getting out of it.

Yup both companies playing dirty Neowin fanboys just make it seem that Google is a disgusting company and Microsoft is all goody goody.

Microsoft starts Scroogled campaign now Google Scroogles them. That war's on.

onionjuice said,

Yup both companies playing dirty Neowin fanboys just make it seem that Google is a disgusting company and Microsoft is all goody goody.

Microsoft starts Scroogled campaign now Google Scroogles them. That war's on.

Actually, Google scroogled Microsoft's customers instead and they had nothing to do with the scroogled campaign!!!!

neo158 said,

Actually, Google scroogled Microsoft's customers instead and they had nothing to do with the scroogled campaign!!!!

Microsoft's customers have perfectly functional alternatives to access Youtube, though.

neo158 said,

Actually, Google scroogled Microsoft's customers instead and they had nothing to do with the scroogled campaign!!!!

Uhh I don't know what you're talking about the term "Scroogled" was created by Microsoft they launched a heavy campaign against Google saying Google reads your email and invades your privacy and misinforming consumers and telling them only half of the story.....

And who are these "Microsoft's customers" and why does Google have to care about them?

Google can do it to MS. If MS does the same to their products within Windows OS, Google will cry about anti-competition with EU again ...

sagum said,

Microsoft could have some real fun and simply roll out a windows update that blocks all android based devices connecting to PC. Google using Microsoft's PC OS to piggy back on providing Google's customers with revenue that should be going to Windows Phones. /s

Yeah, the entire thing is stupid and pathetic.

Shadowzz said,
I get this response and its a nicely worded one, but feels like to much one way finger pointing though.

What the hell do you mean by too much? Yep, MS are pointing the finger at Google. because Google have broken their TOS and there isn't anything else that MS can do other than point that finger - while working to achieve Google's unreasonable HTML5 demands as well, of course. But that sounds like a longer-term solution.

Google has a long history of failing to work well with Microsoft techonologies. Ever tried to use Gmail on Outlook? Pain in the arse. There's been an ongoing fiasco with Gmail on WP too.

Google are the antithesis of open. Open source for Google means - hand over your work that could make you millions and we will give it away for free with bundled ads and collect user info from it to make sure that ads are targeted. At least with MS they let you know that they believe in the proprietary model, and you know they wont pretend to be Enya.

jamdown said,
you're shameful dude. disgustingly so. and no i'm NOT going to point out why i think you're shameful. (1) you wouldn't care and (2) it wouldn't be anything that hasn't been said to you on this site before. you troll this entire site defending a particular company while claiming you are a user of all platforms. i just don't get how you, tech writers, tech community hypocritically hold MS to such a high standard...much higher than anyone else. Google is requesting the app to be written in a code that no other platform needs to. a code that both companies know would take a tremendous amount of time to write. so Android, iOS and Amazon (as far as i know) do not have to write a youtube app in HTML5 but MS must? and if they don't their customers (and googles customers btw) get the dry deep shaft? no lube. and you're ok with that? now before you go all hog wild and say "show me where i said that"...intelligent people aren't buying that farce. in your argument you say MS needs to follow the TOS. subsequent articles come out that stated Google blocked it, it violated TOS. you counter by saying there is TOS that needs to be followed and let's "wait to see what google has to say". it later comes out that the TOS that was "violated" was the app not written in HTML5. and yet you still defend. it has been reported on sites since that Google is requesting the app to be written in HTML5 (no don't bumboclaat ask me to provide the link, you look it up your bloodclaat self) and you seem to be FULLY ok with that. wow. what is alarming (or amusing, depending on how you see it) is that you are totally unaware of your bias and are perpetuating an "image" of "tech neutrality". it's like a horse running around trying to convince people it's a zebra. and with all respect "techbeck" there is no need for a response. i'm not the back and forth type on certain arguments, especially with people that displays certain characteristics (again, no offense) that are just not my cup of tea. and i've been reading this site (and your comments) since WP7.

(i think this is my first time posting here)

Ummm, who are you replying to? Since you didn't use quote and I don't see anyone defending google before you...

Just don't understand why Microsoft gets all annoyed about this. It's after all a "scroggling" service provided by Google. They can pretty much provide alternatives to their customers, like the Bingtube or whatever they call it these days... /sarcasm.

JasonMiles said,
Just don't understand why Microsoft gets all annoyed about this. It's after all a "scroggling" service provided by Google. They can pretty much provide alternatives to their customers, like the Bingtube or whatever they call it these days... /sarcasm.

Because consumers don't care for the reasons why they can't access youtube. They just want to. Microsoft is trying to provide that as a consumer friendly app that consumers shouldn't have to worry about it suddenly stopping working.

Just goes to show though, apps that rely on a web feed can and usually will stop working at some point if they're not updated quickly enough (ie get first dibs on the new page before its changed).