Editorial

Microsoft, stop forcing Xbox Live Gold to use Netflix

There is no doubt that Microsoft has been a leader in the entertainment media center space thanks to the success of its Xbox 360 console. In 2008, Microsoft started to turn the console into a true multimedia hardware platform when it offered a way for people to stream movies on Netflix's service, which had launched less than two years beforehand.

Let's keep in mind that, back in 2008, the idea of people streaming movies and TV shows to a PC or other hardware device was relatively new. While Netflix was available via a PC web browser and via the small Roku set-top box before it showed up on the Xbox 360, it was the launch of the app on Microsoft's machine that really pushed the Netflix experience into the living rooms of millions of people.

Since then, Netflix's growth has exploded and there are now tons of hardware devices that have some kind of Netflix support. Smartphones, set top boxes, DVRs, DVD and Blu-Ray players, Smart TVs and nearly every current game console can run Netflix. That includes the Playstation 3 from Sony, which launched its Netflix support, via a disc, in 2009, and finally via a downloadable app in 2010.

At the same time, Microsoft has also been adding tons of video apps to the Xbox 360, especially in the last year or so. Xbox 360 owners in the US can access video and audio services from Hulu Plus, HBO Go, ESPN, and many, many more.

Yet, there is one thing that Microsoft continues to insist upon in order to access Netflix and its other media streaming services on the Xbox 360. After all this time, customers must also pay for Xbox Live Gold to watch Netflix, in addition to paying for the $7.99 a month Netflix fee. No other hardware device that has Netflix app has that kind of extra fee to stream videos from the service.

It made a little more sense back in 2008, when the Xbox 360 was still evolving as a multimedia package, to tie in Netflix support to Xbox Live Gold, which was also paying for Microsoft's multiplayer gaming services. There's no doubt that you get what you pay for with Xbox Live Gold when it comes to playing online games on the console.

That was then, but in 2012 the streaming media industry has changed, with a ton of options available to the user. Microsoft has made much of the fact that some consumers get an Xbox 360 but don't actually use it to play games, but rather watch moves and TV shows on Netflix and other apps. Yet, the company is still hanging onto making people pay extra for that privilege, when no one else that has a similar set up does the same.

This week, Netflix surprised many when it announced that, in terms of TV set-top boxes, it was the Playstation 3, and not the Xbox 360, that was the company's "largest TV-connected platform in terms of Netflix viewing." It even said that the PS3 was sometimes the biggest Netflix platform, period, in terms of hours viewed, beating out the PC.

How could this happen, when the Xbox 360 has actually sold more consoles than the PS3 and received its Netflix support a full year before the PS3? The logical explanation is that the Xbox Live Gold subscription requirement is limiting how many Xbox 360 owners can view Netflix and its other media apps.

We think that it is unfair and, indeed, a bit of a ripoff to Xbox 360 owners to make them pay extra to access content that the subscriber can get elsewhere with no additional fee. This is not a case of Microsoft competing against a few game consoles with its multiplayer gaming service, this is Microsoft competing against a ton of connected devices, in additional to game consoles, for video streaming.

It's time for Microsoft to make a change and free Netflix and its other video streaming services from the chains of Xbox Live Gold fees. If Microsoft makes that happen, we think that the Xbox 360 would quickly overtake the PS3 as the number one Netflix platform.

We emailed Microsoft to see if they wished to comment on the PS3-Netflix press release and if they have any plans to remove the Xbox Live Gold requirement for viewing Netflix on the Xbox 360. At the time of this writing, we have yet to receive an official response from Microsoft.

Images via Netflix
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When it came time to choose a gaming console I went with PS3 after seeing a friend's PS3 play Blu-Ray movies and stream videos from Amazon and YouTube. I don't need/want premium services, so choosing PS3 over Xbox 360 was pretty simple decision for me.

I disagree with the OP. I'm a 10 year xbox live member and I want the rates to stay or lower a little (Given the economy and cost of living) but I DO NOT want them to go away. The last thing I want is for MS to go free! We pay for premium services, applications and games. PSN can keep it's poor security, massive downtimes and horrible launch days. I started my xbox 360 experience 1 week before launch with the mt dew consol. From that day on I've enjoyed an amazing experience on xbox live gold premium service so why would I want to change arby's for tbell? They both have a place in this world but I don't want Xbox Live to turn in to k-mart like the Wii or PSN. Android has their free open system coming out go play with it. What's the rule if you don't pay for it then you're the commodity. I want Office 365 instead of gmail, yahoo... If you don't understand you get what your pay for then you've got your head in the sand and statements like why can't it just be included don't live in reality. These are the people that pay $1.99 for itunes when Xbox Music is unlimited for a price. Free-to-play would hurt xbox and just cause more abuse to the customer than a yearly fee does.

Jbenisek said,
I disagree with the OP.

How can you agree or disagree when you obviously didn't even read what the article was about? He's not saying Gold should be free, he's saying Netflix shouldn't require Gold. Sheesh.

I have to wonder what %age of Xbox buyers don't get Gold. It's practically a requirement for using any online services, and even if you just play games, so you can use online integration.

Does Microsoft develop the Netflix app for the Xbox? It's pretty customized (and not in a good way), but I can't believe that's an argument in favor of the Xbox, since it lacks features found on other devices.

I don't really care, if you have an xbox, the chances of you getting live is pretty high. Not for Netflix, but that's just included.

Also, has anyone wondered: does MS pay companies for these apps? If Netflix is getting paid for being on Live (revenue sharing or licensing), that would explain a lot. Netflix wouldn't care HOW they get paid, after all. Don't know if its licensing or not, but hey...

Flip side would be Netflix paying companies to support them on their devices, which is feasible as well, but I dunno.

I can see why they'd do it: because consoles can engage in non-gaming activities, its possible for someone to buy a console and buy few to no games which lowers the royalties Microsoft gets from game sales. Royalties are why they're in the console business, period. By doing this, they're monetizing non-gamers, ensuring that they'll get money from them, regardless of activities or whether its a new or used 360. Likewise, Live Gold ensures they're not spending money to support players who don't play online (like myself).

Compare that to Sony who has promised everything with the PS3, but had to add on paid services for PSN, and had a fair number of people at launch who were using the PS3 as Blu-Ray player, Linux box, etc., but not playing games. The PS3 was the best BD player for a long time, after all. And, sadly, Sony as a whole isn't doing so well - I'd imagine they wish they were charging for all these extras now.

Makes sense; don't especially care for it, but it makes sense. And, before anyone mentions ads and Live Gold? Yes, they are there. And they're on cable TV, newspapers, magazines, etc., that are all paid for. Paid does not equal ad-free.

I'm fine paying my year subscription for Xbox Live services...and I'm coming from a 3rd world country where others services like cable and internet are overpriced that everyone resorts to stealing signals.

Xbox live gold makes them a billion dollars a year, eliminates pirates,cheaters,and gives you a premium service and experience. That is why people keep paying for the privilege. Its not even that expensive for what you're getting so some people need to stop bitching.

It would be nice if they changed it, but frankly? If people are continuing to pay for it to use it, why would they change it? As soon as it appears to be hurting their uptake, they'll make the change in a heartbeat.

Ditched my 360 for PS3 last Christmas and haven't missed a thing from LIVE - or 360 for that matter. Should have gone with PS3 from the start instead of pouring 5 years into LIVE.

People pump up the LIVE infrastructure and how great and secure it is for paying $50+. I had my LIVE account hacked twice in the time I had it, resulting in fraud charges to my bank. I made a thread about it here actually. I noticed no difference in my online experience with BF3 on LIVE or PSN.

My PS3 + WD TV Live + PC = all my family needs. No monthly sub just to access apps.

Case and point, people who has Netflix and Xbox Live subscription will use Netflix for the convenience of having just to deal with one device in the living room, and the last thing in their mind is that they are paying for both service.

In my case, Amazon Prime. I have it, and it just happened that the service came to Xbox as well, so now, I don't have to sit infront of my computer if I find a movie that I want to watch in Amazon Prime.

In addtition, if someone reminds me that I am paying for all of these services that should be FREE, I'll respond to them that the first thing that comes to mind is the secured eco system of Xbox Live online gaming - anything in there is just a plus.

This is why there are rumors of there being 2 Xbox consoles next generation. A cheap online video and casual game playing ARM-powered box sold for profit and an expensive high end gaming console sold at a loss. People want to treat Xbox and PS3 like they are Roku or Apple TV, but these high end game consoles weren't sold for profit and need you to pay the manufacturer in some periodic way to make up for the loss on hardware. Microsoft will supposedly make a Roku competitor with cheap hardware, perhaps the services on that will be free or ad-supported.

TsarNikky said,
Microsoft arrogance. It is as simple as that, period.

Indeed. How dare they charge money to pay for security and capacity upgrades, exclusives, the people that monitor the service to keep it safe and friendly, etc...

Shane Nokes said,

Indeed. How dare they charge money to pay for security and capacity upgrades, exclusives, the people that monitor the service to keep it safe and friendly, etc...


None of that applies to Netflix app on Xbox 360.

Well considering Microsoft has a great service with Gold and you can get it for about $40 a year if you do a little digging I don't have a problem with it. Why do you think there are so many more 360's selling each month vs. PS3's? Because Microsoft has a better online service, better games, etc.

jmc15john said,
Why do you think there are so many more 360's selling each month vs. PS3's? Because Microsoft has a better online service, better games, etc.

No it's because netflix killed the physical media rental business. With the price to buy Blu-rays now, it makes more sense to stream lower quality from Netflix.

Author is ridiculous. there are SO many ways to get Netflix that the xbox path is by far not the preferred way to begin with for a few reasons:

1) let's be honest, the xbox isn't a multitasking machine, it takes FOREVER to go in/out of the app
2) the Netflix app once it loads, it is terrible.
3) there is no value whatsoever to using the xbox Netflix app over a competing app like those found in roku, boxee, tvs, etc. In fact those devices have dedicated remotes and streamlined UIs. which the xbox doesn't since it has to operate with a clumsy control pad.

neonspark said,
Author is ridiculous. there are SO many ways to get Netflix that the xbox path is by far not the preferred way to begin with for a few reasons:

1) let's be honest, the xbox isn't a multitasking machine, it takes FOREVER to go in/out of the app
2) the Netflix app once it loads, it is terrible.
3) there is no value whatsoever to using the xbox Netflix app over a competing app like those found in roku, boxee, tvs, etc. In fact those devices have dedicated remotes and streamlined UIs. which the xbox doesn't since it has to operate with a clumsy control pad.

Actually there are dedicated media remotes for the Xbox. There is also Smartglass.

The Netflix app loads in a couple seconds for me and I actually like the interface.

neonspark said,
Author is ridiculous. there are SO many ways to get Netflix that the xbox path is by far not the preferred way to begin with for a few reasons:

1) let's be honest, the xbox isn't a multitasking machine, it takes FOREVER to go in/out of the app
2) the Netflix app once it loads, it is terrible.
3) there is no value whatsoever to using the xbox Netflix app over a competing app like those found in roku, boxee, tvs, etc. In fact those devices have dedicated remotes and streamlined UIs. which the xbox doesn't since it has to operate with a clumsy control pad.

Yea, Xbox is my preferred method after a pc type connection purely because of the chatpad on my xbox controller. It blows every ROKU etc I've used out of the water.

Wow Microsoft must be sad, they need to charge users for using 3rd party apps that isn't their own, besides Internet Explorer. (Not talking about apps that are bundled with the system but only the ones that are in the Marketplace)

I agree, that was just a pure greed move on their part. Too bad it came back to bite them. Most TVs, Blu-Ray players and pretty much everything else can play Netflix now with no extra charges.

TRC said,
I agree, that was just a pure greed move on their part. Too bad it came back to bite them. Most TVs, Blu-Ray players and pretty much everything else can play Netflix now with no extra charges.

Yes it really bit Microsoft which is why their Xbox hardware sales are kicking the crap out of PS3 and Wii for over 2 years straight and why games like Call of Duty sell twice as much on Xbox compared to PS3.

Also the reason why Xbox has the best selection of video services on any box under your TV.

I'm actually OK with the Gold subscription with Xbox Live. So far, I have no issues paying for it, (I have a PS3 sitting here too that is used primarily for Blu-Ray movies.

I have tried to stream Netflix and various other applications, Amazon Prime etc, on the PS3. I always seemed to have some issue, tearing, or extended buffering, highly pixelated image.

When I go over to the Xbox 360 (that is also conntected wirelessly to the same wirless network as the PS3) I have zero issues, to me thats what the subscription gets me, an experience that works. I get the feeling the Microsoft uses the money from Gold subs to enhance the experience, more content, increased stability.

I think the PS3 is behind the times, as far as content goes, (HBOGo, UFC, etc etc) because Sony doesn't know how to make money off the PSO service at this point. Microsoft is doing a good job, I'll continue to happily pay as long as I feel I am getting my monies worth.

I'm probably wrong, but thats how I see it.

I think it's funny how they structured their plans from the get go "Silver" and "Gold" and everyone gets "Silver" for "Free".... In the real word we call that "Nothing" or "Gold", so in reality you are getting "Nothing" for free, and paying for "Gold"

We only got a Gold subscription for Netflix, Amazon, and HBO GO. Since getting a year subscription we've bought a PS3 and a Wii U. I will not be resubscribing to Gold after my year is over since I can use those services without extra charges on other platforms.

Lord Method Man said,
We only got a Gold subscription for Netflix, Amazon, and HBO GO. Since getting a year subscription we've bought a PS3 and a Wii U. I will not be resubscribing to Gold after my year is over since I can use those services without extra charges on other platforms.

xbox gold is for gamings, not media. the fact the other two consoles have fallen as game machines and became glorified roku stream boxes in no way means xbox gold is a bad purchase if you buy it for what it is meant to do.

neonspark said,

xbox gold is for gamings, not media. the fact the other two consoles have fallen as game machines and became glorified roku stream boxes in no way means xbox gold is a bad purchase if you buy it for what it is meant to do.

Online gaming on a console. Thanks for the laugh.

neonspark said,

xbox gold is for gamings, not media. the fact the other two consoles have fallen as game machines and became glorified roku stream boxes in no way means xbox gold is a bad purchase if you buy it for what it is meant to do.


Microsoft says you are wrong. They advertise XBox live gold for Games and Netflix

http://www.microsoftstore.com/...7509700/productID.249297100


our Xbox LIVE Gold membership lets you connect and play with friends around the world and watch thousands of HD movies instantly from Netflix.

Lord Method Man said,
We only got a Gold subscription for Netflix, Amazon, and HBO GO. Since getting a year subscription we've bought a PS3 and a Wii U. I will not be resubscribing to Gold after my year is over since I can use those services without extra charges on other platforms.

So the only thing you'll use your Xbox for is video games, how is that bad for them? They made money off of you trying to use it just for video services. Perfect example of why they need to put the services behind a paywall.

Avatar Roku said,

So the only thing you'll use your Xbox for is video games, how is that bad for them? They made money off of you trying to use it just for video services. Perfect example of why they need to put the services behind a paywall.

Yep because people are abandoning their service in favor of cheaper competitors. Perfect reason.

My 360 will collect dust now as its obsolete as a gaming platform and I no longer need it for streaming services.

I have called in to XBOX live for this as well. totally not owning my living room! haven't paid for that junk in years...

Colin McGregor said,
ERMAHGHERD $4 A MONTH IS SOOOOO HARD TO FIND

To do something that is included on every other console/device for free, it's kind of an issue.

xendrome said,

To do something that is included on every other console/device for free, it's kind of an issue.

I'm sorry, were you forced to buy the Xbox and not buy one of these other devices of such superiority?

This is partially why I'm thinking of selling my 360. The only game I want is Skyrim, which was the last 360 game I bought. The rest since have been PS3. No fees, Blu-Ray etc.

Brandon said,
This is partially why I'm thinking of selling my 360. The only game I want is Skyrim, which was the last 360 game I bought. The rest since have been PS3. No fees, Blu-Ray etc.

skyrim isn't multiplayer anyway.. no need for gold.

Brandon said,
This is partially why I'm thinking of selling my 360. The only game I want is Skyrim, which was the last 360 game I bought. The rest since have been PS3. No fees, Blu-Ray etc.

no games...etc.

Brandon said,
This is partially why I'm thinking of selling my 360. The only game I want is Skyrim, which was the last 360 game I bought. The rest since have been PS3. No fees, Blu-Ray etc.
What's stopping you? The promised land of PS3 awaits. Or is Microsoft forcing you to continue using the Xbox?

The more interesting question, how many PS3 users have abandoned it as a gaming platform and only use it as a Netflix device? If its not used for games, that's 24/7/365 it can be used for watching Netflix.

rdmiller said,
The more interesting question, how many PS3 users have abandoned it as a gaming platform and only use it as a Netflix device? If its not used for games, that's 24/7/365 it can be used for watching Netflix.

exactly, if anything it tells the story about the irrelevance of the PS3 as a gaming device that its primary use is Netflix. It also tells the irrelevance of the PS3 as a media platform since it seems Netflix is the only venue for content. Unlike the xbox which can stream live tv in addition to its own content network or that of amazon and other partners like hulu, cinema now etc.

neonspark said,

exactly, if anything it tells the story about the irrelevance of the PS3 as a gaming device that its primary use is Netflix. It also tells the irrelevance of the PS3 as a media platform since it seems Netflix is the only venue for content. Unlike the xbox which can stream live tv in addition to its own content network or that of amazon and other partners like hulu, cinema now etc.

Streaming live TV is very limited, AT&T U-verse and one other, not Comcast, Time Warner, etc.

Sony also was leveraging the PS3 w/ blu-ray to be the multimedia and gaming all in one from the start. Which cost them dearly with the PS3 launch price being so high.

When a gamer cuts back from the primary function of it's purpose gaming, Xbox users are less likely to pay for gold, where ps3 fall back still have bluray/dvd/ and video streaming options.

microsoft will need to change in stance, at least until nintendo catchup in online aspects, sony impropve a lot psn and psn plus its an advantage suscription and not an requirement....

Netflix, lastfm, twitter, ie, facebook among other "apps" should be free of live gold... hell i think that online gaming should be free too

eilegz said,
microsoft will need to change in stance, at least until nintendo catchup in online aspects, sony impropve a lot psn and psn plus its an advantage suscription and not an requirement....

Netflix, lastfm, twitter, ie, facebook among other "apps" should be free of live gold... hell i think that online gaming should be free too

Nintendo is dead with the wiiU being outsold by both last gen consoles. Sony, PSN is junk compared to XBL.

eilegz said,
microsoft will need to change in stance, at least until nintendo catchup in online aspects, sony impropve a lot psn and psn plus its an advantage suscription and not an requirement....

Netflix, lastfm, twitter, ie, facebook among other "apps" should be free of live gold... hell i think that online gaming should be free too

They should be free when people stop using them on the XBox and choose PS3's. So far, MS isn't having that problem.

neonspark said,

Nintendo is dead with the wiiU being outsold by both last gen consoles. Sony, PSN is junk compared to XBL.

Yawn.....

Comparing a 2 week old console to a console selling since 2006, that sounds like a good idea /s

The only thing I dislike about PSN is that it doesnt have cross party chat, other than that, I prefer it to XBOX.

Safe to say that the current business model is a rest from before when no other device (like PS3) competed with a similar kind of service. I don't want to seem to apologetic about that but it will take time for them to change a business model. Changes in systems take time. Also, third-party companies need to adjust to the changes.

I just hope that the Xbox platfom will open up soon and be more integrated with Windows 8.
I do however not doubt that it will in a future not far away.

Robert Sundström said,
Safe to say that the current business model is a rest from before when no other device (like PS3) competed with a similar kind of service. I don't want to seem to apologetic about that but it will take time for them to change a business model. Changes in systems take time. Also, third-party companies need to adjust to the changes.

I just hope that the Xbox platfom will open up soon and be more integrated with Windows 8.
I do however not doubt that it will in a future not far away.

their business model is to charge for a gaming aspect of the machine (multiplayer) everything else is just sugar on top and gets them nothing. why would they change? nobody who wants an xbox will not buy it because of stupid Netflix. its a game machine.

I expect a ton of bashing after this...but how do you folks think things get paid for?

They get exclusives, offer better security, have people that monitor the service for cheaters and bad behavior, and add new features on a regular basis all because of the revenue LIVE Gold brings in.

That's not all it does either. Does Does everyone think all that money just goes into a piggy bank that Ballmer dives into like Scrooge McDuck?

I do find it amusing that folks are tossing out data about what percentage are Gold members and such...as if they actually have access to that data.

What new features ?

Name one that isn't just a shop, free or already subscribed services.

Xbox Live is only better because Microsoft are better at networks and software.

I absolutely agree, things need to be paid for but Gold is a rip off that offers pretty much nothing that licences, ads, slice of marketplace profits, certification fees would cover.

Exclusive content, you mean wasting money so someone else doesn't get the content at the same time. Money well spent Microsoft.

Steam sure is dying on it's arse with free features.

I find the price to be very affordable. If I wanted a Roku or a PS3 I would have bought a Roku or a PS3. The features, service and uptime we get for a few bucks a year is worth every penny..

If we were still running the old blades and nothing of value was ever brought to the console then i'd be ****ed..

But I enjoy Netflix, Amazon, Hulu+, Latest Dashboard with Xbox Music/Video (I do have zune/xbox pass) and all the available services.

BTW, I do own a roku and I've bought more Roku players to get newer features/updates over the past 7 years then all of my xbox live gold subscriptions added together.. So when it comes to bang for buck, do the math.

Shane Nokes said,
I expect a ton of bashing after this...but how do you folks think things get paid for?

They get exclusives, offer better security, have people that monitor the service for cheaters and bad behavior, and add new features on a regular basis all because of the revenue LIVE Gold brings in.

That's not all it does either. Does Does everyone think all that money just goes into a piggy bank that Ballmer dives into like Scrooge McDuck?

I do find it amusing that folks are tossing out data about what percentage are Gold members and such...as if they actually have access to that data.

the xbox its a device to access content from other providers, if microsoft its hosting netflix service (which its not) and everything run through their xbox live service that would be the case that i would pay. paying twice make no sense and more if microsoft its not the content holder.

Its like i open a business and for my customers to enter to my business they have to pay the security guard... and once they enter they pay me for whatever they want to buy.... That its nonsense.

PSN plus its a decent proposition and gives users real incentive and it dont feel like a required and ****ty service charge that xbox live gold its doing

WooHoo!!! said,
What new features ?

Name one that isn't just a shop, free or already subscribed services.

Xbox Live is only better because Microsoft are better at networks and software.

I absolutely agree, things need to be paid for but Gold is a rip off that offers pretty much nothing that licences, ads, slice of marketplace profits, certification fees would cover.

Exclusive content, you mean wasting money so someone else doesn't get the content at the same time. Money well spent Microsoft.

Steam sure is dying on it's arse with free features.

if you have an xbox and want to play in the world's best network, it is totally worth it.

Shane Nokes said,
I expect a ton of bashing after this...but how do you folks think things get paid for?

They get exclusives, offer better security, have people that monitor the service for cheaters and bad behavior, and add new features on a regular basis all because of the revenue LIVE Gold brings in.

There is no problem with cheaters on Netflix that I'm aware of.

neonspark said,

if you have an xbox and want to play in the world's best network, it is totally worth it.

That argument doesn't cut it anymore. This use to be the case but no longer, the hole "Xbox Live is paid and better" excuse is dead.

I pay for Gold, yes. But I don't see any advantages over this and PSN.

TRC said,

There is no problem with cheaters on Netflix that I'm aware of.

Indeed...and commenters have used this editorial to start the whole LIVE should be free bandwagon.

I was speaking to that, but you already knew that and decided to be 'cute'.

Crisp said,

That argument doesn't cut it anymore. This use to be the case but no longer, the hole "Xbox Live is paid and better" excuse is dead.

I pay for Gold, yes. But I don't see any advantages over this and PSN.

So having enhanced security and real people 'policing' the service to keep it safe and enjoyable isn't something worth funding?

Shane Nokes said,

So having enhanced security and real people 'policing' the service to keep it safe and enjoyable isn't something worth funding?

Enhanced security is something you should pay a subscription for? You pay monthly / yearly for Windows updates?
Real people policing the service? Can you give me an example? I'm sure MS employees tens of thousands of people to siv through all the complains kids make each day. /s

I still can't see much of a difference with the competition, espeshally now since MS have been spaming my dashboard with ads. Something else I just love paying for. /s

Shane Nokes said,

So having enhanced security and real people 'policing' the service to keep it safe and enjoyable isn't something worth funding?


1. This doesn't apply to Netflix app.
2. They offer the same security on Windows 8 for free.

Shane Nokes said,
I expect a ton of bashing after this...but how do you folks think things get paid for?
I don't know, how about the ADS for starters that are shown even for gold members. then there's the people buying the consoles and games

i don't mind them having a gold subscription but requiring you to purchase it if you want to play online just seems wrong to me, especially when EVERY other console and handheld allows you to do that free

Crisp said,

Enhanced security is something you should pay a subscription for? You pay monthly / yearly for Windows updates?
Real people policing the service? Can you give me an example? I'm sure MS employees tens of thousands of people to siv through all the complains kids make each day. /s

I still can't see much of a difference with the competition, espeshally now since MS have been spaming my dashboard with ads. Something else I just love paying for. /s

You're joking right?

I mean you have to be if you don't know about the way the complaint system works. Yes real folks monitor the service and the complaints.

I used to be one of those people before I moved on to a different team at MS. Yes they are real, no the complaint system isn't automated. There is an actual cost for those folks and the tools they use.

Edited by Charisma, Dec 6 2012, 2:02am :

Shane Nokes said,

So having enhanced security and real people 'policing' the service to keep it safe and enjoyable isn't something worth funding?

it's MS, they get PLENTY of other funding for that else ware, it's literally just about them wanting more money now a days

Brando212 said,
I don't know, how about the ADS for starters that are shown even for gold members. then there's the people buying the consoles and games

i don't mind them having a gold subscription but requiring you to purchase it if you want to play online just seems wrong to me, especially when EVERY other console and handheld allows you to do that free

Indeed and none of the other consoles have folks monitoring the service and keeping it safe.

Only just now has Sony announced that they are taking some consoles offline...incidentally AFTER they started to offer a paid service offering as a value add...

Shane Nokes said,

You're joking right?

I mean you have to be if you don't know about the way the complaint system works. Yes real folks monitor the service and the complaints.

I used to be one of those people before I moved on to a different team at MS. Yes they are real, no the complaint system isn't automated. There is an actual cost for those folks and the tools they use.

I'm guessing the /s in your case stands for stupidity instead of sarcasm.

way to only focus on one part of the comment shane

Brando212 said,
it's MS, they get PLENTY of other funding for that else ware, it's literally just about them wanting more money now a days

Indeed. So what's your alias? I mean you must work on campus and somehow sit in a better position than me to have this data. I'd be interested to see what financial data you have access to that I haven't seen.

Shane Nokes said,

Indeed and none of the other consoles have folks monitoring the service and keeping it safe.

Only just now has Sony announced that they are taking some consoles offline...incidentally AFTER they started to offer a paid service offering as a value add...

I found PSN+ to be different then Xbox live gold with very little overlap.

PSN+ is "free" games as long as you keep your plus sub active, discounts on specific PSN store purchases, automatic updates (it's a joke it turns the ps3 on at night, checks for updates, installes them, and then shuts itself down), and online saving games online.

The banning of psn accounts / consoles just came about when modders found a way to get the PS3 up to current firmware (so they can re-connect to PSN) while having a altered console.

Now for comparison, having paid people modern the online activities, abuse reports etc, vs automated-hands off approach helps is a service that could help justify gold cost for online gaming.

However apps that aren't games are not using those services or if they are, in what way? Hulu, Netflix, Crunchyroll, Amazon, etc all have independent authentication / accounts outside of Xbox Live.

Is Microsoft starting to refer to the Xbox as entertainment device vs "game console" now as well?

Jason Stillion said,

I found PSN+ to be different then Xbox live gold with very little overlap.

PSN+ is "free" games as long as you keep your plus sub active, discounts on specific PSN store purchases, automatic updates (it's a joke it turns the ps3 on at night, checks for updates, installes them, and then shuts itself down), and online saving games online.

The banning of psn accounts / consoles just came about when modders found a way to get the PS3 up to current firmware (so they can re-connect to PSN) while having a altered console.

Now for comparison, having paid people modern the online activities, abuse reports etc, vs automated-hands off approach helps is a service that could help justify gold cost for online gaming.

However apps that aren't games are not using those services or if they are, in what way? Hulu, Netflix, Crunchyroll, Amazon, etc all have independent authentication / accounts outside of Xbox Live.

Is Microsoft starting to refer to the Xbox as entertainment device vs "game console" now as well?

Now this I somewhat agree with. My point was to counter the 'LIVE should be free crowd'.

As far as specific functionality goes...I'm fairly ambivalent as regards Free vs Gold features. I've never gone without Gold since I use all the features. I think part of it might be that I know just how much work goes into everything, so I don't mind shelling out the bucks.

Crisp said,

That argument doesn't cut it anymore. This use to be the case but no longer, the hole "Xbox Live is paid and better" excuse is dead.

I pay for Gold, yes. But I don't see any advantages over this and PSN.

Then the obvious question is why do you still pay for your Xbox Live account rather than getting a Playstation and not paying the fee?

MrHumpty said,
Then the obvious question is why do you still pay for your Xbox Live account rather than getting a Playstation and not paying the fee?

Good question.

Shane Nokes said,

So having enhanced security and real people 'policing' the service to keep it safe and enjoyable isn't something worth funding?

I call that customer service, something that differentiates you from competitors, being good with such things like that and security is standard by any good company. It is not something you pay for directly, ever.

Care to come up with something else that offers the so called value you seem to see from the Gold sub ?

WooHoo!!! said,

I call that customer service, something that differentiates you from competitors, being good with such things like that and security is standard by any good company. It is not something you pay for directly, ever.

Care to come up with something else that offers the so called value you seem to see from the Gold sub ?

Like I said...people who want something for nothing.

Everyone wants everything for free. No one ever wants to have to face up to the reality that things cost money, and that the more man hours and time you put into something the lower the chance it will be free.

Customer service is things like e-mail and phone support for hardware software issues.

Do you think alarm monitoring should be free since you bought the hardware?

Do you think you shouldn't pay taxes for emergency responders since you pay for other things as well?

Things cost money. It really is that simple.

MrHumpty said,
Then the obvious question is why do you still pay for your Xbox Live account rather than getting a Playstation and not paying the fee?

Because I have friends, family and work peeps who play Xbox. If they moved to the PSN I would move too.

As for you Shane, I have no responce for you. Steering away from the argument and giving out personal name calling instead, by calling me stupid is something I guess we can expect from someone whose on Microsofts payroll. - Jolly good show, old chap.

Crisp said,

Because I have friends, family and work peeps who play Xbox. If they moved to the PSN I would move too.

As for you Shane, I have no responce for you. Steering away from the argument and giving out personal name calling instead, by calling me stupid is something I guess we can expect from someone whose on Microsofts payroll. - Jolly good show, old chap.

Yes and inventing something that never happened is a good way to deflect from having to deal with being called out.

I substituted one tone for another. There was no name calling. I said the argument used was stupidity instead of sarcasm. I attacked your argument.

I'm not on the payroll at the moment either. It wouldn't change what I said though. I'm not afraid of losing popularity points with anyone. Never have been never will. I will always call a spade a spade.

If you can't handle that then make sure your posts are at least close to matching reality.

XBox Live should be used for Gaming and communications. XBox Music and Video services should be free Silver supported services. Period!

Drewidian said,
XBox Live should be used for Gaming and communications. XBox Music and Video services should be free Silver supported services. Period!

Why shouldn't gaming and communications be free, is there some amazing dedicated servers hidden somewhere, do they not have licensing fees and other income from the marketplace, ads etc. let alone P2P. Publishers don't get a free lunch on Xbox. There is so many revenue streams for Microsoft and they think Gold fees are needed to keep up the quality and value. I have some magic beans to sell you.

Unless they offer something more substantial, they shouldn't be charging for full Xbox Live access in any form.

WooHoo!!! said,

Why shouldn't gaming and communications be free, is there some amazing dedicated servers hidden somewhere, do they not have licensing fees and other income from the marketplace, ads etc. let alone P2P. Publishers don't get a free lunch on Xbox. There is so many revenue streams for Microsoft and they think Gold fees are needed to keep up the quality and value. I have some magic beans to sell you.

Unless they offer something more substantial, they shouldn't be charging for full Xbox Live access in any form.

because they are the best and they can charge for it why shouldn't my rent be free too

Good article. I think Gold altogether needs to die as it is. They shouldn't be charging for access to anything. It is only arguably better than the competition because Microsoft are better at software, plain and simple, not because they get millions from subs every year.

Think back over the history of Xbox Live and tell me what they have offered for your money that isn't basically a means to sell you more stuff ? I'll tell you, Cloud saving, that is honestly all they have done for the Gold user.

Everything else is still P2P, demos are ads, there is ads, avatars are an excuse to sell you tat, marketplace is there to sell you stuff. apps are made by the companies not MS. Gold offers no value. People pay because it's the only way to play online, not because they want a better service. Nothing wrong with paying, do what you like with your own money. I just don't like it when people defend it like Microsoft are offering value.

It's more of hindrance to the Xbox platform more than anything. Sure, they make good money from Gold subs but when less than a third of your platform only uses Gold and who knows if they re-sub for a full year. That is a waste for Microsoft and especially companies that have apps on the platform who should want as many eyeballs as possible.

Someone is going to come along and put the nail firmly in the Xbox Live coffin before Microsoft can react. You might say they can flick the switch but when something is substantially better from the start and gets the hype, people flock and you wonder were it all went wrong...Xbox Live Gold when everyone else does it for free without much hassle. Look at the pain the Family Plan is for Gold, that is the most annoying brick wall if anyone wants to just watch a film or play a game on multiple devices. Microsoft needs to change, the sooner the better.

WooHoo!!! said,
Good article. I think Gold altogether needs to die as it is. They shouldn't be charging for access to anything. It is only arguably better than the competition because Microsoft are better at software, plain and simple, not because they get millions from subs every year.

Think back over the history of Xbox Live and tell me what they have offered for your money that isn't basically a means to sell you more stuff ? I'll tell you, Cloud saving, that is honestly all they have done for the Gold user.

Everything else is still P2P, demos are ads, there is ads, avatars are an excuse to sell you tat, marketplace is there to sell you stuff. apps are made by the companies not MS. Gold offers no value. People pay because it's the only way to play online, not because they want a better service. Nothing wrong with paying, do what you like with your own money. I just don't like it when people defend it like Microsoft are offering value.

It's more of hindrance to the Xbox platform more than anything. Sure, they make good money from Gold subs but when less than a third of your platform only uses Gold and who knows if they re-sub for a full year. That is a waste for Microsoft and especially companies that have apps on the platform who should want as many eyeballs as possible.

Someone is going to come along and put the nail firmly in the Xbox Live coffin before Microsoft can react. You might say they can flick the switch but when something is substantially better from the start and gets the hype, people flock and you wonder were it all went wrong...Xbox Live Gold when everyone else does it for free without much hassle. Look at the pain the Family Plan is for Gold, that is the most annoying brick wall if anyone wants to just watch a film or play a game on multiple devices. Microsoft needs to change, the sooner the better.

completely agree plus the competition catchup its not 2008 where they have "the master service" for today standards they are far behind of "VALUE" and its feel more and more like a crappy requirement....

WooHoo!!! said,
Good article. I think Gold altogether needs to die as it is. They shouldn't be charging for access to anything. It is only arguably better than the competition because Microsoft are better at software, plain and simple, not because they get millions from subs every year.

Think back over the history of Xbox Live and tell me what they have offered for your money that isn't basically a means to sell you more stuff ? I'll tell you, Cloud saving, that is honestly all they have done for the Gold user.

Everything else is still P2P, demos are ads, there is ads, avatars are an excuse to sell you tat, marketplace is there to sell you stuff. apps are made by the companies not MS. Gold offers no value. People pay because it's the only way to play online, not because they want a better service. Nothing wrong with paying, do what you like with your own money. I just don't like it when people defend it like Microsoft are offering value.

It's more of hindrance to the Xbox platform more than anything. Sure, they make good money from Gold subs but when less than a third of your platform only uses Gold and who knows if they re-sub for a full year. That is a waste for Microsoft and especially companies that have apps on the platform who should want as many eyeballs as possible.

Someone is going to come along and put the nail firmly in the Xbox Live coffin before Microsoft can react. You might say they can flick the switch but when something is substantially better from the start and gets the hype, people flock and you wonder were it all went wrong...Xbox Live Gold when everyone else does it for free without much hassle. Look at the pain the Family Plan is for Gold, that is the most annoying brick wall if anyone wants to just watch a film or play a game on multiple devices. Microsoft needs to change, the sooner the better.

keep dreaming. the xbox is a juggernaut like it or not, and NOBODY can stop it at this point. Sony tried, look where they are at.

neonspark said,

keep dreaming. the xbox is a juggernaut like it or not, and NOBODY can stop it at this point. Sony tried, look where they are at.

i don't know what you're talking about, Sony seems to be doing just fine with the PS3 and PS+ to me (note, i don't even own an xbox or ps3, but a few of my friends have both, most of those prefer the ps3 but have a xbox just because of some of the exclusives)

a lot of the time it really is just the exclusives that keep people on xbox from my experience

TheCyberKnight said,
The same should apply to XBOX Music.

How can they expect people to jump in if they require a 50+$ additionally to the monthly pass fee?

Ha, I couldn't believe that when I tried it, should have know of course but it seemed obvious, I have a Zune/Xbox Music pass, can't wait to try it on the TV, launches Xbox, well that sucks. Pay twice, don't think so Microsoft.

TheCyberKnight said,
The same should apply to XBOX Music.

How can they expect people to jump in if they require a 50+$ additionally to the monthly pass fee?

you have always been able to stream to your xbox regardless. you're not missing out on anything.

They really do need to stop lumping these apps into Gold and create better incentives for buying Gold. Getting rid of the damn ads would be a good start!

xiphi said,
They really do need to stop lumping these apps into Gold and create better incentives for buying Gold. Getting rid of the damn ads would be a good start!

isnt ads only for silver and not for gold?

so its worse, xbox live gold really need to die if this its the case, what its the point to "suscribe" when im still eating ads, have a lower quality service and a its need to pay more....

eilegz said,

isnt ads only for silver and not for gold?

so its worse, xbox live gold really need to die if this its the case, what its the point to "suscribe" when im still eating ads, have a lower quality service and a its need to pay more....


Ads are there regardless of Xbox Live account type.

xiphi said,
They really do need to stop lumping these apps into Gold and create better incentives for buying Gold. Getting rid of the damn ads would be a good start!

your incentive is the only one they have ever advertise: a network that blows PSN out of the water.

neonspark said,

your incentive is the only one they have ever advertise: a network that blows PSN out of the water.

And that justifies the ads and making Netflix and such Gold only? Some of you seem to think we also want MS to offer the mutliplayer for free. That's not the case here. I'm totally fine with plunking down $35-60 a year (depending on where you buy your subscription) to play my games online and party chat. What I'm not fine with is the ads being there on Gold accounts and forcing Xbox Live members to buy Gold to access Netflix.

Stop turning this into something it's not.

This is one reason I WILL not and have not used Xbox 360 for any online services. From the moment I found out you had to have an xbox live gold account (a few years ago), back then I thought it was the stupidest thing i'd ever heard off.

I'm also not a fan of the xbox 360 UI. A) They keep changing it B) the current interface doesn't make much sense. C) The PS3 interface is much more remote friendly.

warwagon said,
This is one reason I WILL not and have not used Xbox 360 for any online services. From the moment I found out you had to have an xbox live gold account (a few years ago), back then I thought it was the stupidest thing i'd ever heard off.

I'm also not a fan of the xbox 360 UI. A) They keep changing it B) the current interface doesn't make much sense. C) The PS3 interface is much more remote friendly.

lol so the PS3's outdated UI is a feature. I see.

neonspark said,

lol so the PS3's outdated UI is a feature. I see.

Sony has started to clutter up the PS3 XMB, but I find the changes Microsoft has done to the 360 to be far worse in terms of clutter and navigation. The Wii, by far, has the easiest to use interface. (I own all three systems). Not experienced the Wii U interface, so can comment on that.

Also the Xbox360 interface shifted a bit towards Sony's. They now have category's at the top, with the content below, but that's where the similarities end.

warwagon said,
This is one reason I WILL not and have not used Xbox 360 for any online services. From the moment I found out you had to have an xbox live gold account (a few years ago), back then I thought it was the stupidest thing i'd ever heard off.

I'm also not a fan of the xbox 360 UI. A) They keep changing it B) the current interface doesn't make much sense. C) The PS3 interface is much more remote friendly.

hillarious !

Legendary fanboy going on about xbox here.. now do us a favor and replace the word xbox with with Windows 8 !

THAT right there is the definition of hypocrite !

Won't use it because they changed the UI ? seriously ?
how do you expect me to ignore that ? WOW lol

jeez some of you Windows 8 cheerleaders are unbelievable ! lol

The question we need to ask: What exclusive content will xbox owners get by accessing this features through the 360 itself?

If it's near zero, then I believe there's no reason to employ a paid alternative.

Since the 360 has sold so well, MS is just pushing as far as it can to get the most out of the people to get the memberships

Jose_49 said,
The question we need to ask: What exclusive content will xbox owners get by accessing this features through the 360 itself?

If it's near zero, then I believe there's no reason to employ a paid alternative.

Since the 360 has sold so well, MS is just pushing as far as it can to get the most out of the people to get the memberships

99.9% of the XBL gold subscribers do it for multiplayer gaming. nobody who buys it does so to get the bonus apps. You're looking at it the wrong way

XBL IS NOT A MEDIA PASS, IT IS A GAMING PRIVILEDGE WITH SIDE APPS THROW IN AS A SIDE ORDER

Jose_49 said,
The question we need to ask: What exclusive content will xbox owners get by accessing this features through the 360 itself?

The only exclusive I used to get from Xbox Live Gold (besides online gaming) was the ESPN app. There are a few times per year where I like to watch sporting events that are only available through ESPN3, and it was nice to watch them on the big screen.

However, now that my cable provider supports the WatchESPN app, it's no longer compelling enough to have a XL Gold subscription for ESPN just to watch a few events each year, when I can watch the same events for free on my iPad.

If I dropped cable television, then XL Gold would be a no brainer as I love sports, and would probably watch ESPN through the Xbox quite a bit. But I do have cable TV...

I don't care if the netflix app on xbox is free, I still WON't USE it b/c of its HORRIBLE interface. I have Gold, but I only use netflix on my ps3, b/c after the kinect netflix update, it became crap. Not only is it unusable, but the quality keeps cutting in/out of HD, whereas on my PS3, the quality is HD all the time.

greensabath said,
I don't care if the netflix app on xbox is free, I still WON't USE it b/c of its HORRIBLE interface. I have Gold, but I only use netflix on my ps3, b/c after the kinect netflix update, it became crap. Not only is it unusable, but the quality keeps cutting in/out of HD, whereas on my PS3, the quality is HD all the time.

Netflix works fine. My 4 year old loves the kid center. Its very usable and there is no issues of quality on my 360. I get HD video and 5.1 surround sound.

greensabath said,
I don't care if the netflix app on xbox is free, I still WON't USE it b/c of its HORRIBLE interface. I have Gold, but I only use netflix on my ps3, b/c after the kinect netflix update, it became crap. Not only is it unusable, but the quality keeps cutting in/out of HD, whereas on my PS3, the quality is HD all the time.

best Netflix app: roku.

Yea sorry, Roku doesnt have a keyboard interface. I've used Roku, Boxee Box, and various Blu-ray players, I'd still rather use my Xbox purely because I have the chat pad on it. PS3 lets me use a keyboard too so if I had one I'd probably use that.

neonspark said,

best Netflix app: roku.

NastySasquatch said,
Yea sorry, Roku doesnt have a keyboard interface.

If you have an iOS or Android device, the Roku app has a keyboard option. I too hate trying to "type" on the Roku using the arrow and ok keys. So when I need to type, I use the Roku app and type using the much more friendly smartphone/tablet keyboard, which I actually prefer more than the chat pad (which I also have) for the Xbox 360 controllers

And actually, Netflix on the Wii U is extremely nice. It's become my preferred platform for using Netflix, even though I own a Roku 2 HD, Xbox 360, iPad, Kindle Fire HD 7", and original Wii.

My two young kids prefer using the Kindle Fire HD for Netflix. Probably because it's really easy to access the app and they can just sit together on the couch and watch cartoons.

Redtop said,
I wonder how many people bought another gaming console for this reason alone?
the fact that you are forced to get a gold subscription to do anything useful including play online with your friends is literally the only thing that keeps me from getting a 360

Redtop said,
I wonder how many people bought another gaming console for this reason alone?

the author did apparently since he's so into this topic nobody else in the world cares. I mean you got the #1 gaming console and complain its GAMING service cost money when you can get every thing in like 80 other devices anyway?

Redtop said,
I wonder how many people bought another gaming console for this reason alone?

I have started discouraging those who ask me about netflix and Xbox 360. I ask them get a roku instead (or ps3 if they can afford it). It is ridiculous that people have to pay for $40-60 per year when a $70 roku does the same thing for free.

it is rather retarded for them to force you to pay to use something you're already paying to use.

they need to move a lot of other things out of the gold category as well, as there are many things in there that MS has no right making people pay to use

Sony has things set up just right i think with how they have PS+

Brando212 said,
it is rather retarded for them to force you to pay to use something you're already paying to use.

they need to move a lot of other things out of the gold category as well, as there are many things in there that MS has no right making people pay to use

Sony has things set up just right i think with how they have PS+

by your logic why charge at all.

neonspark said,

by your logic why charge at all.

they really shouldn't be charging for most of the features in gold. that's kinda the point

Let's keep in mind that, back in 2008, the idea of people streaming movies and TV shows to a PC or other hardware device was relatively new.

The idea itself was not new at all. The speed/download limit/price of internet connections was just starting to be good enough to do it.

This is true for many of the services that they charge gold for. Especially for using IE, it's a browser!

Mark said,
This is true for many of the services that they charge gold for. Especially for using IE, it's a browser!

Anything that keeps you from using Xbox in a way that is profitable for MS should have a paywall in front of it. The only services that should be in front of the paywall are buying Xbox games, Xbox video store, and Xbox Music.

Mark said,
This is true for many of the services that they charge gold for. Especially for using IE, it's a browser!

So you think that practically every feature that every other console maker has should be monetized too?

Avatar Roku said,

Anything that keeps you from using Xbox in a way that is profitable for MS should have a paywall in front of it. The only services that should be in front of the paywall are buying Xbox games, Xbox video store, and Xbox Music.

So should Microsoft charge you for using IE on your PC? I mean, they aren't making a profit from your web browsing, so that must be excruciating for them to bare...

how about stop forcing xbox live gold to use: Internet Explorer, Amazon OnDemand, ESPN3, Youtube, and every other damn program thats not a game!

*******s!

Kalint said,
how about stop forcing xbox live gold to use: Internet Explorer, Amazon OnDemand, ESPN3, Youtube, and every other damn program thats not a game!

*******s!

people at neowin actually like this bs rant?

Kalint said,
how about stop forcing xbox live gold to use: Internet Explorer, Amazon OnDemand, ESPN3, Youtube, and every other damn program thats not a game!

*******s!

why not? every single thing is available elsewhere and surely MSFT isn't selling a media box. do you know what gaming consoles are supposed to be for or did you buy a 399 dollar roku box?

Kalint said,
how about stop forcing xbox live gold to use: Internet Explorer, Amazon OnDemand, ESPN3, Youtube, and every other damn program thats not a game!

*******s!

Genius please explain why MS should want you to use your Xbox for that stuff if they make no money off of it? Game console hardware is not sold for profit. The OS on the game console is free. Now you're gonna use the system for watching videos that you pay other companies for instead of buying more games... Why should Microsoft allow that?

Avatar Roku said,

Genius please explain why MS should want you to use your Xbox for that stuff if they make no money off of it? Game console hardware is not sold for profit. The OS on the game console is free. Now you're gonna use the system for watching videos that you pay other companies for instead of buying more games... Why should Microsoft allow that?

It works pretty well for Sony. Explain that...

Wow, three idiots in a row, record...

Idiot #1: They should.

Idiot #2: Have you even used Xbox 360? It's an entertainment centre (that's like a media box... right?) that allows you to play games, extend to Media (<- theres that word again, crazy!) Centre, watch videos, listen to music, etc. Here, go to http://www.xbox.com and learn more about it. I'll be expecting an apology later.

Idiot #3: Oh why am I doing this...

Game console hardware is not sold for profit. Yes, businesses are very successful this way.

Now you're gonna use the system for watching videos that you pay other companies for instead of buying more games... Why should Microsoft allow that?
dhnjdfshjkdsrgj (head hits keyboard) Who the hell thinks like you? Even if you didn't buy any games and have gold, you're still paying a service fee. And yes I will use it for watching videos and listen to music as i explained to idiot #2.

Here's what I know about these three idiots.
1. Are using their mommy & daddys credit card to pay for their services.
2. You have no bills, probably no job because of #1.
3. Are idiots because I have to justify why paying a service fee for a service fee is annoying.
4. Should never, ever procreate.

Kalint said,
Wow, three idiots in a row, record...
Game console hardware is not sold for profit. Yes, businesses are very successful this way.

It's been seven years. Is the console making money yet from hardware sales yet?

omgben said,

It's been seven years. Is the console making money yet from hardware sales yet?

Xbox very quickly started making a profit on hardware. Sony was losing money for a while, but even they are making a profit on each sale. Not sure why anybody would think consoles are sold at a loss.

omgben said,

It's been seven years. Is the console making money yet from hardware sales yet?

I don't know, look it up.

spudtrooper said,

You really have no clue what your talking about..

*You're* an idiot. You just keep proving me right.

Astra.Xtreme said,

Xbox very quickly started making a profit on hardware. Sony was losing money for a while, but even they are making a profit on each sale. Not sure why anybody would think consoles are sold at a loss.


Because they make a small profit on each manufactured device means they dont sell them at a loss?
Thats raw production costs, not the research, losses and everything else the damn thing has cost.
The margin is still very, very small (they made 12USD per sold PS3 iirc, and that doesnt include any costs or anything else).

Shadowzz said,

Because they make a small profit on each manufactured device means they dont sell them at a loss?
Thats raw production costs, not the research, losses and everything else the damn thing has cost.
The margin is still very, very small (they made 12USD per sold PS3 iirc, and that doesnt include any costs or anything else).

do you think they haven't already covered the R&D costs years ago already?

Selling the console and Live Gold subscriptions aren't the only income channels for the Xbox division, there's also SDK yearly fees, profit sharing they demand from game publishers, 99/year for indies + 30% cut for using the marketplace and licencing fees for whoever creates a 360-compatible peripheral.

We are way past the point where MS recoups R&D funds for the 360 and they are already putting money towards recouping/investing R&D money for their next console.

Shadowzz said,

Because they make a small profit on each manufactured device means they dont sell them at a loss?
Thats raw production costs, not the research, losses and everything else the damn thing has cost.
The margin is still very, very small (they made 12USD per sold PS3 iirc, and that doesnt include any costs or anything else).

Unless you have discreet data to back that up, I see no validity in that claim. Especially considering the age of these consoles.

gonchuki said,

do you think they haven't already covered the R&D costs years ago already?

No.
For both Sony and MS, there is significant R&D that goes into cost cutting by putting out new models that oh, say use an SoC design over three discreet chips.
Sony has what, 11 models of PS3 in the wild today??

I think people get the idea that consoles are sold at a loss from stories they remember from Nintendo's Cartridge based days, where it was true for the life of the console that it would be sold at a loss so three game sales would make the margin they needed.

Silly really.

As long as Microsoft requires gold subscription for for paid services (Netflix, Hulu, etc). they give the advantage to other devices, PS3, Roku, Google TV, smart tv's, etc.

I doubt they will change it. You have to have Gold Membership just to Internet Explore on the Xbox360.

Edited by Jason Stillion, Dec 5 2012, 5:33pm :

Jason Stillion said,
As long as Microsoft requires gold for for paid services (Netflix, Hulu, etc). they give the advantage to other devices, PS3, Roku, Google TV, smart tv's, etc.

I doubt they will change it. You have to have Gold Membership just to Internet Explore on the Xbox360.

They wont change it, I bet its a pure cash cow.

Jason Stillion said,
As long as Microsoft requires gold subscription for for paid services (Netflix, Hulu, etc). they give the advantage to other devices, PS3, Roku, Google TV, smart tv's, etc.

I doubt they will change it. You have to have Gold Membership just to Internet Explore on the Xbox360.

I agree. They need to remove the Gold requirement for ALL the services that require an additional paid subscription to use. Gold should be a subscription with added value for gamers and not media that is free everywhere else (that means better deals, free stuff and exclusive content for the people that do pay). That said, multiplayer should be free as well for Silver accounts as the internet is free for everyone else to use.

This is my problem: I own(ed) multiple consoles and still believe that XBL is the superior servicewhich is more stable with a better community and you get to keep what you buy on it, so therefor I pay for it, but this added value for Gold is diminishing in my eyes. We'll see what next gen brings but MS needs to step up their game and drastically change their current subscription structure.

You do realize that Netflix uses Microsoft's live platform to deliver their service. Your xbox doesn't connect directly to Netflix, instead is goes via the Live platform. Though inefficient it is what is is. So either MS charges netflix and netflix ups their pricing and ups it for everyone or they have this tier model or whatnot or they go the route to make it easier to simply say, just charge people on xbox so they pay for the live platform. Either way it's not black and white like some like to believe nor is it a cash cow as others would have you think.

Microsoft switch to a business model that causes you to lose money like Sony.

When the intelligent response would be Sony should stop letting Netflix get a free ride on PS3 and start trying to make a profit.

What is the point of having people use your game console for video services if you haven't monetized it? Game consoles are sold at a loss or at cost, so you need to make up the loss preferably by selling games, ads, or subscriptions. Microsoft has monetized the video services on their Xbox, Sony has not. Saying more people use PS3 for Netflix is like saying more people use PS3 to play online. Who cares, if Sony is making no money. The current way things are going Sony will eventually get squeezed out of the industry. People using PS3 for Netflix instead of games is bad for Sony.

Jason Stillion said,
As long as Microsoft requires gold subscription for for paid services (Netflix, Hulu, etc). they give the advantage to other devices, PS3, Roku, Google TV, smart tv's, etc.

I doubt they will change it. You have to have Gold Membership just to Internet Explore on the Xbox360.

your argument is fundamentally flawed, first of all, tv boxes like roku and google tv are low volume players in a market that is going nowhere. they ARE NOT gaming consoles. so your only device that qualifies is the PS3.

let's look at how the PS3 pretty much killed sony's #1 record streak. it proves a free network means nothing.

neonspark said,

let's look at how the PS3 pretty much killed sony's #1 record streak. it proves a free network means nothing.

Don't completely agree, from a consumer stand point I can get device A that allows me access to netflix on tv w/o subscription, device B requires a online fee to use on top of fee.

If Microsoft has to jack up the price (or eat the price) since they want to control the entire network and allow only stuff to go through it that was Microsoft decision. Just like Sony decided to leverage blu-ray movies in the console wars with 1st gen blu-ray lasers jacking up the cost of there console to the point of not being competitive at launch.

Not sure why frustration of users of having to pay for the option to pay relate to Sony losing money at ps3 launch? This is more of xbox vs ps3 arugment. Wii U is going to have the same advantage of the PS3 in terms of app video streaming as sony does.

Edited by Jason Stillion, Dec 5 2012, 7:27pm :

You are not compelled to use Gold with Netflix. No one is standing there threatening you bodily harm if you don't sign up for Gold and Netflix. So if you don't like their model, go get roku, enjoy it. What I'm hearing is, I want my cake and I want to eat it too damnit. I have gold before netflix even hit xbox, I continue to have gold for other reasons so I don't look at netflix as Gold required, it's just something that works and additional benefit to my gold account.

Kalint said,

They wont change it, I bet its a pure cash cow.


Cash cow, really? What 50 bucks a year per person to use their services unlimited? You think the Xbox network runs on air or something?