Microsoft: Windows 8 Start button is still there

As some of you may know, there's been  a bit of a debate surrounding the absence of the traditional Start menu and the Start button in the Windows 8 Consumer Preview. Today, Microsoft has posted up a new entry on its Windows blog site that offers up some tips and tricks with using Windows 8. It also offers up a defense (kind of) for the company getting rid of the previous Start button and menu.

Microsoft's Kent Walker states:

The Start button has been one of the best known images in Windows for over sixteen years now. I’ll admit, when I look in the corner of my screen and just see an icon for Outlook, it’s still a little jarring. And I’ve been using Windows 8 for months now. So where did the Start button go? The short answer: it’s still there, it’s just on the right, and it looks a little different now. Also, you can still use the Windows logo key if you’re using your keyboard.

The new Start menu in Windows 8 also has a list of charms, including Search which by default is set to show all of the Windows 8 apps you have installed. Once you type in something the apps filter out until you find the one that best matches your search term. Windows 8 users can also use the Search charm while inside an app.

The Settings charm also changes when you are in the app such as showing the control panel in the desktop or accounts while using email. The new app bar also come into play when you use a Windows 8 Metro app. Each app has its own specific commands in the app bar, such as opening a new window in Internet Explorer 10.

The blog post also goes over some other Windows 8 tips and tricks such as right clicking on the lower left corner of the screen to show some power user features, snapping an app so you can show two apps running at once and more. There's also a new list of Windows 8 keyboard commands that you can check out for some shortcuts to doing tasks.

Image via Microsoft

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If I wanted a OS that looks like a tablet, I would buy a god damn tablet.

Windows 8 is gonna flop big time, why are they forcing us to have this ugly UI?

why the hell do I have to slide up my lock screen on a DESKTOP! it makes no sense.

not even gonna download windows 8 let along buy it.

I think MS are missing the point? The start button is still there in the bottom left hand corner, cus you can hover to go to the metro start screen same as you can with the charm. What's missing is the start MENU

wotsit said,
I think MS are missing the point? The start button is still there in the bottom left hand corner, cus you can hover to go to the metro start screen same as you can with the charm. What's missing is the start MENU

Their argument is FAIL!

This is just dumb. I like the Metro UI and I like the Windows 7 desktop, but I don't see why Microsoft had to try to combine the two into one operating system. They should have just let Windows 7 become Windows 8 targeted at productivity users, and they should have released Microsoft Metro purely for media consumption devices like tablets and phones. Metro is really cool on tablets and phones but Metro is a car crash for laptop and desktop users. They've pretty much just locked businesses into Windows 7 for the next 20 years because it's gonna be so difficult for businesses to upgrade. Dumb. Dumb. Dumb move!

Stop patronizing the average consumer.
They are all buying devices with different OS'es on and they all deal with the learning curve.
If I would work for a Best Buy or other store, I'm sure if I would sell somebody a Win8 desktop, they would not come back or put Win7 on it.

It's all about how you sell it.

MS has to think about the vast majority of users - theyre going to hate Windows 8. We, tech savvy folks, will get used to it, but the masses are going to reject it. Hell, people couldnt even handle Vista.

Like many others have said, you cant hide menus and hope people find them. you cant force the average user to RELY on keyboard shortcuts. my mom, for example, barely knows how to right click let alone ctrl+v, etc. try telling your parents to do ctrl+winkey+tab or something to bring up the search bar.

I remember when in XP I could launch any application just with two mouse clicks. Programs were compactly organized by [CompanyName\ProductName]. Then Microsoft "improved" our experience by forcing "Search" on us by removing sub-menus from All Programs, so we had to use multiple mouse-clicks and type program name into search bar. And now this. God job, Microsoft /s

MS can solve most of these complains by stopping being morons, and putting the Start button back in the corner, visibly. Still send you to their Start screen, but at least then average people will know where to bleeping click!

FloatingFatMan said,
MS can solve most of these complains by stopping being morons, and putting the Start button back in the corner, visibly. Still send you to their Start screen, but at least then average people will know where to bleeping click!

sounds reasonable but I don't want the start menu back. Don't want to go back to back to 95

hiding behind a finger! How is it ergonomically flawed? Oh crap a screen I cant move my cursor to the upper right of the screen - my arms will hurt. You are too funny. I guess you run all your app at the bottom left of your screen at about 15% of your entire screen. You need to make sense.

I completely agree with vcfan

I've tried to accept it, but a few things stick out as a problem in my workflow.

1) I often use the Start button on my keyboard to re-layer my desktop's Taskbar over unruly windows, especially when using apps via Citrix

2) Where the heck are the jumplists for incidental apps I don't want cluttering the Taskbar? Talk about giving and taking away. Mr Sinofsky2008 needs to have a word with Mr Sinofsky2012!

3) I don't seem to be able to pin Printers and Devices to the StartScreen - am I being thick?

Mugwump00 said,
3) I don't seem to be able to pin Printers and Devices to the StartScreen - am I being thick?
You can pin Control Panel items to the Start Screen by right clicking their entries in the Control Panel. If you are in Category view you'll need to go into a category before you can right click it.

I'm telling you it's stupid and ergonomically flawed to use the entire screen to launch a program.

You're explaining me how to launch a program under the Metro Start Screen?! Ok... I know how... that doesn't mean it's not a dumb idea?

I see right through these fakes in here. Why would they be rambling about not wanting metro on and on and on when they can just keep using whatever it is they are currently happy with. I mean it sounds to me like someone is jealous their platform of choice is going to be obsolete pretty soon. Why are you so mad hundreds of millions will be enjoying metro apps and games next year. Is it because you have a giant phone as a portable computer that stutters worse than a human can? Lmao. I just grabbed you from the top and swiped you down.

vcfan said,
Why would they be rambling about not wanting metro on and on and on when they can just keep using whatever it is they are currently happy with.

Because MS released the preview to get user feedback, not a tongue up their rear.

ichi said,

Because MS released the preview to get user feedback, not a tongue up their rear.


uh-huh, and are all of these so-called 'beta testers' that rushed out to download the CP giving feedback? No.
All I see people doing is to whine and whine.

wow that's your problem with windows 8. Well you have a wrong impression - problem fixed. love win 8 cause you still point and click just like you click on win7 plus with live tiles. you don't have to open your mail client just to check that you have mail or check your friends' status updates, twitter feeds or even the weather; just glance and go and yes its an app launcher.

Start screen is metro but metro is not start screen.

Windows 7 scenario- Opening VB 2010

Start Orb/windows button > search by typing or have it pinned and click to open

Windows 8 scenario- Opening VB 2010

Start windows button > search by typing or have it pinned and click to open

mr lefleur said,
wow that's your problem with windows 8. Well you have a wrong impression - problem fixed. love win 8 cause you still point and click just like you click on win7 plus with live tiles. you don't have to open your mail client just to check that you have mail or check your friends' status updates, twitter feeds or even the weather; just glance and go and yes its an app launcher.

I don't have to open any app to check than info, and I'm not using Windows8.

I mean, really, we've been able to put all that information on any place of our desktop we wanted for quite some time already (eg. KDE's plasmoids).

You gave the answer in your question: Start Screen + tiles

Do we really need to explain again why it's a bad idea that doesn't work on a desktop computer, and why it's ergonomically ridiculous to be forced to use a fullscreen "app launcher" ('cause basically, Metro is an app launcher)?

If I wan to use two OS with different UI on my computer, I'll make a Windows/Linux dual boot, or I'll virtualize Linux, Vista or XP with VMware.

Windows 8 is really the "Frankeinstein" of all Windows versions that ever existed... One piece of Aero, one piece of Metro, some stupid limited apps taking my entirer 30" screen, a "Charm" bar coming from nowhere that is supposed to fix the UI flaws, etc. This thing is a mutant!

can you give scenarios where windows 8 is hurting your productivity. Please compare it to win7 and please don't say its the start screen cause beside size and tiles and extra snappiness- nothing else changed.

mr lefleur said,
can you give scenarios where windows 8 is hurting your productivity. Please compare it to win7 and please don't say its the start screen cause beside size and tiles and extra snappiness- nothing else changed.

Don't do this, you're asking to be flooded with pointless points of people's personal opinions on how they're used to doing things in Windows 7.

Mac OS X engineers and UI designers must be laughing their ass off SO much right now... I mean, that Metro bloat is AGAINST all ergonomy principles.. It's like a big pile of sh** someone at Microsoft decided to put over Windows "7.5" 'cause "eh, we need something for tablets guys, it's the new hot thing!"

myxomatosis said,
Mac OS X engineers and UI designers must be laughing their ass off SO much right now... I mean, that Metro bloat is AGAINST all ergonomy principles.. It's like a big pile of sh** someone at Microsoft decided to put over Windows "7.5" 'cause "eh, we need something for tablets guys, it's the new hot thing!"

The entire OS X UI is against all ergonomics. It's due for an overhaul. Using a Mac feels like I'm back in the 90's where I wanted to throw those damn things out the window after trying to use it for more than an hour. Way too many menus and confusing layouts.

myxomatosis said,
Mac OS X engineers and UI designers must be laughing their ass off SO much right now... I mean, that Metro bloat is AGAINST all ergonomy principles.. It's like a big pile of sh** someone at Microsoft decided to put over Windows "7.5" 'cause "eh, we need something for tablets guys, it's the new hot thing!"

They can laugh all they want...until you realize MacOSX isn't that much different. Quicktime, the App Store, Finder, iTunes, Calender, Messages, Game Center, Notifications Center, all look different from each other, and have absolutely no consistency between them.

While us Windows users need to jump between the desktop and Metro, MacOSX users have been putting up with something even worse: Mission control is a mix and mash of a few different separate spaces: dashboard, the desktop and it's apps, and fullscreen apps.

It's still there but you have to put your mouse into a corner and then move it to the center to click start. I really don't understand what was wrong in keeping it on the task bar where people who aren't that computer literate expect it to be. I'm going to try so hard to keep my parents from updating Windows, because I don't want to be their 24/7 phone support again.

Yes Mr. Walker, we KNOW it is there, but it is not obvious for 1st time users.

Windows 8 in it's current form is a DISASTER in terms of design and navigation.

1. Not everyone wants an "immersive" Start screen.

2. The frequent transition from Metro to Classic Desktop is what is "jarring", not your little Outlook icon.

3. Context sensitive Settings button on the Charms bar is not at all evident or obvious. Almost no one is going to think, "Hey, maybe THAT'S how I'm supposed to access my app settings."

4. Absolutely NO uniformity in design elements and navigation.

5. You can logout by clicking your avatar and selecting Sign Out, but have to go 3 or 4 levels deep to shut down the PC! WHY couldn't you have just shoved all the options there itself?!

6. Clicking the Network icon in Classic Desktop brings up a gigantic and EMPTY bar on the right save for a small section on the top from where you can access options. Yet, clicking the Speaker icon for volume still brings up the old small volume control slider.

7. Hot corners, no start button, invisible Charms bar etc are going to throw off first time users or beginners. They will just sit and stare at the screen not knowing where to go or what to do.

8. It is pointless having shortcut keys since a lot of people don't use them. Hell, a lot of people still don't know what Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V does!

To me it's kind of ironic that someone would think to remove the Start button. One of the things Windows developers noticed from Windows 3.1 and earlier was that there was no indication of where to Start on the Desktop. They said that Program Manager was just staticly sitting there. So, they came up with the idea of the Start button and a fly out menu with Windows 95, and have only improved upon it (especially with Jumplists in Windows 7). Now, it's like they've gone backward. No indication of where to Start if you're on the Desktop. Maybe they think that's okey because they first show you the Start screen. But once you're on the Desktop, first time off, it's not discoverable how to get back to the Start screen. The Start button is gone, so most users would at first glance think, 'The Start button is gone; no reason to click or move my mouse down there. Bummer.' Then maybe by accident the move their mouse to one of the 'invisible corners' and find it. But then you get bonked back to the fully immersive Start screen. Who decided that everybody wants 'immersive'? Annoying Window borders? I didn't get why the writer would say that Window borders are suddenly no good. Yes, maybe on a smartphone screen or a tablet. But not on a big monitor desktop setup. I just don't care for an 'immersive' Start screen. I just want a menu and to stay on the Desktop.

It is arrogant and disingenuous of Microsoft to suggest that the criticisms of those who do not approve of the removal of the Start Menu simply lost the button. They take issue with the removal of the functionality. They are not idiots; they have tried the new system and still preferred the previous system. This kind of PR spin is not welcome.

Why Start Menu couldn't still coexist with Metro. Since Microsoft considers Desktop as another full screen Metro App then Start Menu is just part of that Desktop App. I believe they should return Start Menu and to access Start Metro Screen -> do it via charm bar.

So people actually see this as a problem?? My god...
What's up with you people? The start button still totally acts the same, it's just hidden when you don't need it!
Do you usually spend hours looking at a start button or what?

Cøi said,

So people actually see this as a problem?? My god...
What's up with you people? The start button still totally acts the same, it's just hidden when you don't need it!
Do you usually spend hours looking at a start button or what?

It is more than just start button, it is whole broken UI.

Well, im on w8 cp right now... All I can say is that I don't miss the old start menu, its just that what has been changed needs getting used to. I keep trying to do things id do previously but find myself lost because its all changed!! haha

anyways, so far I like it.. im using some metro apps currently and will download more if I see fit.

I've been trying to use it, I really have. It's pathetic. I hate it very, very much. I can't believe there are people who can deny that it's like using a tablet OS on a computer.

So to get to the start button, because it's face it, the bottom left corner hover take a couple of goes for me to get, no matter how hard I concentrate on getting it, you need to move to the top right, wait for the menu to appear, move down, click start and then be shown the most hideous menu system ever released on a computer?

Brilliant.

Nashy said,
I've been trying to use it, I really have. It's pathetic. I hate it very, very much. I can't believe there are people who can deny that it's like using a tablet OS on a computer.

So to get to the start button, because it's face it, the bottom left corner hover take a couple of goes for me to get, no matter how hard I concentrate on getting it, you need to move to the top right, wait for the menu to appear, move down, click start and then be shown the most hideous menu system ever released on a computer?

Brilliant.

And all these hideous colored tiles (green, blue, orange, red, etc.).. Seriously Microsoft? Am I a 14yo girl?

I mean, I want a sober, minimalist, non-cluttered, efficient desktop, and you give me that multicolor crap?.... Man my eyes are dying. Not for me

Nashy said,
I've been trying to use it, I really have. It's pathetic. I hate it very, very much. I can't believe there are people who can deny that it's like using a tablet OS on a computer.
Brilliant.

I have yet to have that feeling. Even when using the Metro apps.

myxomatosis said,

And all these hideous colored tiles (green, blue, orange, red, etc.).. Seriously Microsoft? Am I a 14yo girl?

I mean, I want a sober, minimalist, non-cluttered, efficient desktop, and you give me that multicolor crap?.... Man my eyes are dying. Not for me

not to mention the poor sods who are colourblind esp RGB deficient users, hope they do something in "accessibility" for these users (theres more than you think)

I would recommend everyone to avoid reading the blog called "Windows Team Blog" because it's not from the development team. It's from a team whose job is to only evangelize the product and say good things about it. I doubt if the "Windows Team Blog" ppl even know anything remotely technical about Windows. Now if you want to read some non-non-sense which doesn't have a load of marketing bull****, read the Building Windows 8 blog as that comes directly from the engineering team.

Honestly I don't miss the start menu that much. But I was one of many Windows 7 users who got so used to pinning apps to the task bar that I rarely used it for anything other than Favorites, Games, Control Panel, and Shut Down--all of which (but favorites) exist perfectly accessibly in Windows 8.

I respect MS for this. Windows 7 was the epitome of the Windows 9x desktop metaphor. Anything else would just be skins and addons. With Windows 7, Microsoft came to a point where they could step back and reinvent themselves. As a 1.0 product, Windows 8 is brilliantly refined and responsive, and I look forward to its next iteration.

Joshie said,
Honestly I don't miss the start menu that much. But I was one of many Windows 7 users who got so used to pinning apps to the task bar that I rarely used it for anything other than Favorites, Games, Control Panel, and Shut Down--all of which (but favorites) exist perfectly accessibly in Windows 8.

I respect MS for this. Windows 7 was the epitome of the Windows 9x desktop metaphor. Anything else would just be skins and addons. With Windows 7, Microsoft came to a point where they could step back and reinvent themselves. As a 1.0 product, Windows 8 is brilliantly refined and responsive, and I look forward to its next iteration.

This. Windows 7 was the perfect OS.... But since it's release look at what has come along. Mainstream touch computing, Kinect motion sensing computing/gaming. The way we are interacting with the technology around us is evolving beyond the keyboard and mouse or ordinary controller. I'm willing to bet that PCs 10 years from now won't even be anything like what we're running now, and for those we need something different than a cruddy start button and start menu that is pretty much microscopic on today's high resolution screens.

Heck just look at what the iPad did... 2048×1536 screen! Resolutions are only going to go up... Now do you want a start menu with that?

Give it time and we'll all be using Windows again like we are now. It's not going to change overnight, after all, look how long DOS laid around in the shadows of Windows 9x.

Dot Matrix said,

This. Windows 7 was the perfect OS.... But since it's release look at what has come along. Mainstream touch computing, Kinect motion sensing computing/gaming. The way we are interacting with the technology around us is evolving beyond the keyboard and mouse or ordinary controller. I'm willing to bet that PCs 10 years from now won't even be anything like what we're running now, and for those we need something different than a cruddy start button and start menu that is pretty much microscopic on today's high resolution screens.

Heck just look at what the iPad did... 2048×1536 screen! Resolutions are only going to go up... Now do you want a start menu with that?

Give it time and we'll all be using Windows again like we are now. It's not going to change overnight, after all, look how long DOS laid around in the shadows of Windows 9x.


Higher resolutions than the iPad have been around for years. They've just been incredibly expensive because there are wider profit margins if the industry sticks to mass producing HDTV panels (hence the obscene number of 720p laptops and 1080p desktops). If TVs and computers are all using the same LCD panels, production costs go down. Throwing more resolutions into the mix screws that formula up.

Dot Matrix said,

Heck just look at what the iPad did... 2048×1536 screen! Resolutions are only going to go up... Now do you want a start menu with that?


I have a 2560 x 1440 screen, absolutely no problem with the start menu…

Hell the iPad is maybe the worst comparison ever, as Apple doesn't increase the screen space but improves the image quality, whereas Microsoft does it the other way round…

MFH said,

I have a 2560 x 1440 screen, absolutely no problem with the start menu…

Hell the iPad is maybe the worst comparison ever, as Apple doesn't increase the screen space but improves the image quality, whereas Microsoft does it the other way round…


I think the market has spoken that people want better image quality with a higher resolution display, not more screen space. Personally, i'd like to see some high-quality windows 8 displays with metro. It will look good.

Believe it or not, once you get the hang of Windows 8, it's quite awkward going back to Windows 7. Not missing the Start Menu at all.

I have to believe that they have all kinds of focus groups that they plop down in front of the desktop experience. I cannot fathom that a novice user would not get totally discombobulated. The point is to make it easy to figure things out. The fact that they had to create an entire new blog post to do that, should speak for itself.

There is PLENTY of time to make adjustments, and I have to think that they have alternate UI's ready to go. If not I see a real danger of too much confusion here. I cannot imagine it going to RTM by june, I really hope they make more adjustments and I hope that they have had these adjustments tucked away all along.

I really like it for the most part, but it has to be totally moron proof to compete with IPAD. It's a great OS, but it needs a thicker coat of idiot proofing.

Relativity_17 said,
Charms bar icons should be bottom-aligned instead of vertically centered.

Indeed! Since most users at least know about the Taskbar, that is something that would at least make some sense to them.

For desktop users, leave it NOT hidden by default and then those experts could select Autohide like they might do already with the taskbar.

And, BONUS, it would work in multimonitor setups, since very few people stack monitors vertically.

Great idea. Easy to code for, relatively speaking, and kills more than one bird with one stone.

Relativity_17 said,
Charms bar icons should be bottom-aligned instead of vertically centered.

Or top-aligned. But yeah, I think horizontal would be easier.

And the app bars can be vertical, I'm cool with that. However this would mess up stuff like the IE address bar which is why they won't do it.

Relativity_17 said,
Charms bar icons should be bottom-aligned instead of vertically centered.

And every Metro app should have a little gear for options, like widgets in OSX Dashboard - its not intuitive to get options with right mouse click. Moreover, each Metro app in CP shows options in both, top and bottom bars which is very confusing. Again, Microsoft cant even give consistent look and feel.

laserfloyd said,
We will adapt. We will learn that menus are hidden and how to get to them. It's about learning how the OS works.

WE will, but that's because we are the techo-literate, first adopters - ergo Neowin.

But home consumers and office users?! No friggin' way...

Every post I have made on this has been from THEIR perspective.

I know I'll find workaround for multimonitor use, including hacking Metro out entirely if need be, but its the 99% that we should be advocates for.

it's not the same! start screen and start menu are completely different. why load a full screen page of apps when i just need to open the calculator!

jasonon said,
it's not the same! start screen and start menu are completely different. why load a full screen page of apps when i just need to open the calculator!

Well, on that same screen you'll see what music is playing, how many emails/messages you have, what the weather is like, what time it is, what's in the night sky (perhaps), top news stories and updates from friends on social networks + your calculator.

laserfloyd said,

Well, on that same screen you'll see what music is playing, how many emails/messages you have, what the weather is like, what time it is, what's in the night sky (perhaps), top news stories and updates from friends on social networks + your calculator.

And if people wanted that then Calculators would come with all that s**t. They don't.

virtorio said,
And if people wanted that then Calculators would come with all that s**t. They don't.

But they're getting close. Check out the TI-Nspire CX, more importantly those of people playing Gameboy Color games.

The problem is not the location. It's the visibility of the button when your mouse is in the middle of the screen. Unless you know where it is, you can't find it. Just looking at a blank Windows 8 desktop won't tell you where to go.

WizardCM said,
The problem is not the location. It's the visibility of the button when your mouse is in the middle of the screen. Unless you know where it is, you can't find it. Just looking at a blank Windows 8 desktop won't tell you where to go.

Same can be said about the multi-touch gestures on something like the iPhone, but people learned and even got used to that. This is basically the same thing. Hopefully Microsoft will be smart enough to add video tutorials to Windows 8, basically what Apple did with OS X Lion and the Magic Trackpad.

.Neo said,

Same can be said about the multi-touch gestures on something like the iPhone, but people learned and even got used to that. This is basically the same thing. Hopefully Microsoft will be smart enough to add video tutorials to Windows 8, basically what Apple did with OS X Lion and the Magic Trackpad.

Multitouch gestures can't really be compared to an invisible start button, whatever the case. Tutorials for all the gestures would be nice, I agree.

WizardCM said,

Multitouch gestures can't really be compared to an invisible start button, whatever the case. Tutorials for all the gestures would be nice, I agree.

Yes. Multitouch gestures are bonus, advanced, speed up gestures for EXPERT users.

The core ones required to use the phone are TAP and SWIPE. Even PINCH isn't strictly necessary, but it at least makes sense to anyone/everyone as a zoom metaphor.

No one can guess the multitouch gestures without being told them and therefore 99% of users will never use them.

WizardCM said,

Multitouch gestures can't really be compared to an invisible start button, whatever the case. Tutorials for all the gestures would be nice, I agree.


They can be compared perfectly: Both are a key feature, invisible and have to be remembered by the user.

excalpius said,
The core ones required to use the phone are TAP and SWIPE. Even PINCH isn't strictly necessary, but it at least makes sense to anyone/everyone as a zoom metaphor.

On iOS there's no other way to zoom in/out without pinching or tabbing. Either way there's no visible on screen button for you to press.

I love the new start screen
I have used it since DP released and now it has gotten better with the CP release
it can only get better. I can't wait to make a custom Visual Style for windows 8. I have some cool Ideas on paper (I just hope they will work)(looks at panda-x for help later lol) anywho I hope they improve it even more cause I am LOVING IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The thing is, 'they' stopped producing simple manuals / quick-guides to the software. If they just put a cheat-sheet in each boxed-copy of Windows.. AND A QUICK TUTORIAL ON FIRST BOOTS LIKE WHEN WIN95 HAD THE "CLICK HERE TO BEGIN" ANIMATED ARROW!!!!

cleverclogs said,
The thing is, 'they' stopped producing simple manuals / quick-guides to the software. If they just put a cheat-sheet in each boxed-copy of Windows.. AND A QUICK TUTORIAL ON FIRST BOOTS LIKE WHEN WIN95 HAD THE "CLICK HERE TO BEGIN" ANIMATED ARROW!!!!

Agreed. But they still need an operating system paradigm where ANYONE can come to the machine years later and pick it up WITHOUT the tutorial. And that is what MS has lost here.

I found Windows 8 very non intuitive with a steep learning curve. I mean I now have to remember which are the secret areas where I need to move mouse pointer to bring up hidden menus. And those areas are not natural. They rather feel like forced on me.

sanke1 said,
I found Windows 8 very non intuitive with a steep learning curve. I mean I now have to remember which are the secret areas where I need to move mouse pointer to bring up hidden menus. And those areas are not natural. They rather feel like forced on me.

lol... you kidding right....? No?
damn you are serious

sanke1 said,
I found Windows 8 very non intuitive with a steep learning curve. I mean I now have to remember which are the secret areas where I need to move mouse pointer to bring up hidden menus. And those areas are not natural. They rather feel like forced on me.

How do you remember where and what to right click in the current Windows versions?

minster11 said,

damn you are serious

As will 99% of the end users be, at home and in offices, out there.

We at Neowin forget that we are techno-elite and often forget about the people who actually buy MS products en masse.

Ricardo Dawkins said,

How do you remember where and what to right click in the current Windows versions?

years of right clicking in every build of windows so far from Windows 3.1 to Windows 7? (anywhere on a free space of your desktop/open window)

Mando said,

years of right clicking in every build of windows so far from Windows 3.1 to Windows 7? (anywhere on a free space of your desktop/open window)

Exactly.
Emphasis mine.

sanke1 said,
I found Windows 8 very non intuitive with a steep learning curve. I mean I now have to remember which are the secret areas where I need to move mouse pointer to bring up hidden menus.

Left, switch. Right, tasks. You're welcome.

sanke1 said,
I found Windows 8 very non intuitive with a steep learning curve. I mean I now have to remember which are the secret areas where I need to move mouse pointer to bring up hidden menus. And those areas are not natural. They rather feel like forced on me.

so, corners are not natural now?
I can't believe this sh*t...

I actually figured this earlier and facepalmed so hard - especially after my lengthy tutorial on how to get it back to look like 7's Start menu. Every (or most) corners on the desktop shows an option if you hover over it.

It's a beta, people.

That's what Microsoft should refer to in their Windows Blog, with alarming repetition. It's a beta and things will change. It's highly doubtful that Microsoft is sitting around on their hands and thumbs reading this forum and thousands of others with the complaints and suggestions about how "people" think Microsoft should make their OS to be - why not go make posts on the Windows Blog and at the Windows 8 support forums on TechNet where Microsoft is almost positive to see it.

Or fire off some emails with feedback.

Also, if you (meaning anyone reading this) can create a better OS than Windows, get busy and I'll be the first in line to buy it. If not, well... you'll figure it out.

br0adband said,
It's a beta, people.

That's what Microsoft should refer to in their Windows Blog, with alarming repetition. It's a beta and things will change. It's highly doubtful that Microsoft is sitting around on their hands and thumbs reading this forum and thousands of others with the complaints and suggestions about how "people" think Microsoft should make their OS to be - why not go make posts on the Windows Blog and at the Windows 8 support forums on TechNet where Microsoft is almost positive to see it.

Or fire off some emails with feedback.

Also, if you (meaning anyone reading this) can create a better OS than Windows, get busy and I'll be the first in line to buy it. If not, well... you'll figure it out.

I think this is one of the biggest problems that they are having - tech savvy individuals who have historically downloaded beta's are used to issues like "Program X is not compatible with Device Y at Z resolution". This time it seems to be less about the technical side of things (no issues with my vhd install so far) and more about getting feedback about the interface. At least I hope that's how it's being taken - at the moment there's a lot to love, but even more to be confused about.

On an unrelated note : w00t!!! 700th post Go me!!

It's the tech savvy people that will most likely stick with it and get used to it. It's the millions of non-tech savvy people that'll get it (probably via a new PC), hate it and either get their old PC out or return it.

br0adband said,
It's a beta, people.

No, it's not, not really.

A REAL beta has options for changes, reworking, feedback, etc.

An MS OS beta is entirely different. At this stage in development of Vista or Windows 7, NOTHING changed with regards to the core operation of the GUI, etc. until the final RTM.

Nothing.

Let's hope a groundswell of professional negative feedback can cause MS to make unprecedented last minute adjustments for Desktop users before this summer...when they actually have to lock this OS down to hit the Christmas 2012 sales season...

excalpius said,

No, it's not, not really.

A REAL beta has options for changes, reworking, feedback, etc.

An MS OS beta is entirely different. At this stage in development of Vista or Windows 7, NOTHING changed with regards to the core operation of the GUI, etc. until the final RTM.

Nothing.

Let's hope a groundswell of professional negative feedback can cause MS to make unprecedented last minute adjustments for Desktop users before this summer...when they actually have to lock this OS down to hit the Christmas 2012 sales season...


what your talking about is a GAMMA release. BETA's are usually for last minute work, moderate changes and primarely bugfixes

SoCalRox said,
"Charms" OY! Sounds sort of kiddie-ish.

AND it makes no sense mnemonically, etc. Somebody said, "oh, they look like the charms hanging on my teen age daughter's bracelet, isn't that a cute name for it?!" and apparently they had enough power that they could ignore all the groans...

Start Menu = START...everything.
Task Bar = These are where my TASKS, the things I do, show up
Desktop = this is where DESK, where all my stuff is, from documents to programs
Menu = here is a MENU of all of my choices

Normal operations = obvious, intuitive left mouse button move and click
ADVANCED user operations for power users = secret right mouse button click, which any user can spend their entire life not ever needing to now.

Charm Bar = huh?
Invisible Widgets = huh?
Secret swipe motions = huh?

Right mouse button OVER the invisible corner = now you are just screwing with us! 8)

Mr. Walker,

There is no visible way for any new user to know ANY of the things you pointed out.

Looking at the first Start screen upon boot-up, they don't see a charms bar. In fact, they don't even know it exists. And they won't find it except by accident. EXCEPTIONALLY poor GUI design here.

These people don't use shortcuts, or type letters into a search application to find a program (because in many cases they may not remember the name, or even know a program exists until they hunt around for it).

These people don't assume the corners of their screen have invisible widgets to accomplish the most routine and mundane tasks they've been doing for 30 years.

In fact, it is utterly illogical and counter-intuitive for any human being to assume there are magic invisible corners on ANYTHING, let alone a computer that is supposed to be mouse (or even touch) driven.

The reason you are stilled jarred 8 months afterwards is the fact that you've removed the "beginner's 101 access your computer button".

If you put it back, sure it'll be redundant for some, and power users can press the Windows key or swipe the mouse over there, but it means that new users and the general population/casual user/forgetful elderly/etc. will always be able to orient themselves back to square one again.

It'll also keep Start Button access for NON-Metro applications - namely 99.999999999999% of everything ever written for and running on Windows computers today.

And your entire paradigm doesn't work at all if you are using more than one monitor...

Sincerely,

People Who Actually Use Computers Every Day - AND those who keep getting asked to solve their problems, which your team has just magnified ten fold. 8P

excalpius said,
Mr. Walker,

There is no visible way for any new user to know ANY of the things you pointed out.

Looking at the first Start screen upon boot-up, they don't see a charms bar. In fact, they don't even know it exists. And they won't find it except by accident. EXCEPTIONALLY poor GUI design here.

These people don't use shortcuts, or type letters into a search application to find a program (because in many cases they may not remember the name, or even know a program exists until the hunt around for it).

These people don't assume the corners of their screen have invisible widgets to accomplish the most routine and mundane tasks they've been doing for 30 years.

In fact, it is utterly illogical and counter-intuitive for any human being to assume there are magic invisible corners on ANYTHING, let alone a computer that is supposed to be mouse (or even touch) driven.

The reason you are stilled jarred 8 months afterwards is the fact that you've removed the "beginner's 101 access your computer button".

If you put it back, sure it'll be redundant for some, and power users can press the Windows key or swipe the mouse over there, but it means that new users and the general population/casual user/forgetful elderly/etc. will always be able to orient themselves back to square one again.

It'll also keep Start Button access for NON-Metro applications - namely 99.999999999999% of everything ever written for and running on Windows computers today.

And your entire paradigm doesn't work at all if you are using more than one monitor...

Sincerely,

People Who Actually Use Computers Every Day - AND those who keep getting asked to solve their problems, which your team has just magnified ten fold. 8P

They will adapt just like they adapted to the start menu when it first came out.

excalpius said,
Mr. Walker,
People Who Actually Use Computers Every Day - AND those who keep getting asked to solve their problems, which your team has just magnified ten fold. 8P

On the plus side - being an IT Technician is going to come with a lot more job security for the next few years!!

excalpius said,
Mr. Walker,

There is no visible way for any new user to know ANY of the things you pointed out.

Looking at the first Start screen upon boot-up, they don't see a charms bar. In fact, they don't even know it exists. And they won't find it except by accident. EXCEPTIONALLY poor GUI design here.

These people don't use shortcuts, or type letters into a search application to find a program (because in many cases they may not remember the name, or even know a program exists until they hunt around for it).

These people don't assume the corners of their screen have invisible widgets to accomplish the most routine and mundane tasks they've been doing for 30 years.

In fact, it is utterly illogical and counter-intuitive for any human being to assume there are magic invisible corners on ANYTHING, let alone a computer that is supposed to be mouse (or even touch) driven.

The reason you are stilled jarred 8 months afterwards is the fact that you've removed the "beginner's 101 access your computer button".

If you put it back, sure it'll be redundant for some, and power users can press the Windows key or swipe the mouse over there, but it means that new users and the general population/casual user/forgetful elderly/etc. will always be able to orient themselves back to square one again.

It'll also keep Start Button access for NON-Metro applications - namely 99.999999999999% of everything ever written for and running on Windows computers today.

And your entire paradigm doesn't work at all if you are using more than one monitor...

Sincerely,

People Who Actually Use Computers Every Day - AND those who keep getting asked to solve their problems, which your team has just magnified ten fold. 8P

WHY CAN I NOT +1 THIS MORE???!!!!

david said,

They will adapt just like they adapted to the start menu when it first came out.

You would adapt if I cut all your limbs off too, that doesn't mean doing so is a good idea now though is it?

excalpius said,
Mr. Walker,

There is no visible way for any new user to know ANY of the things you pointed out.

Looking at the first Start screen upon boot-up, they don't see a charms bar. In fact, they don't even know it exists. And they won't find it except by accident. EXCEPTIONALLY poor GUI design here.

Actually if I remember correctly, each time I successfully installed windows, it ask if I want to watch window tutorial which explain the basic navigation.

My 78 year old dad can do it.

djdanster said,

WHY CAN I NOT +1 THIS MORE???!!!!

I know, I hammered the "Like"button and all I did was kept liking and unliking the post!

david said,

They will adapt just like they adapted to the start menu when it first came out.

Really? My old man has been using Windows computers for over half of his life now and he just learned what the Start Button was...yesterday.

He doesn't know Word is a program, he thinks his documents run themselves because when he clicks on them, they come up, he edits, saves, and prints from them.

Etc. etc.

Why? Because he clicks icons on his desktop to run his favorite programs. He doesn't remember when I teach him new things. Not because he has Alzheimer's or something, but just because he is OLD. 8P

Move mouse, point and click, makes sense to him. It has always made sense to him. And he doesn't need to learn anything more to get through his day.

Touch would make sense to him...if his desktop monitor (like EVERYONE else's) wasn't too far away to be useful. This is the true fail of adapting a touch-based interface paradigm for desktop computers, by the way.

The truth is that 99% of the "innovations" we all have seen in the past 30 years have gone right past the everyday user. If they can ignore it, they will, because all the want is for the computer to just do what they ask it to do with a point and a click.

So no, they did not adapt. They ignored it and went on with their lives. And if MS tries to force a half-baked counter-intuitive INVISIBLE widgets and bars that perform CORE computer tasks GUI on them, they'll buy a Mac.

And they'd be right to do so.

Let's be clear. Metro is fine for touch-based tablets and phones but it needs to be OPTIONAL for desktop users...period.

Like widgets, jump lists, the start menu, etc. if MS gives user OPTIONS then they remain THE inclusive OS, rather than the "my way or the highway" OS.

IMHO, end-user Choice and Options are the reasons why Windows owns the desktop world.

minster11 said,

Actually if I remember correctly, each time I successfully installed windows, it ask if I want to watch window tutorial which explain the basic navigation.

My 78 year old dad can do it.

Kudos to your dad! But soon his memory will start to fail and while it's easy to "get" the classic Windows desktop interface just by looking at it and moving the mouse, when that happens to him, there is no way in hell he's just going to look at a (current) Windows 8 screen and say, "oh, those corners must have invisible control gadgets!" 8P

excalpius said,

Kudos to your dad! But soon his memory will start to fail and while it's easy to "get" the classic Windows desktop interface just by looking at it and moving the mouse, when that happens to him, there is no way in hell he's just going to look at a (current) Windows 8 screen and say, "oh, those corners must have invisible control gadgets!" 8P

at that point there's really nothing he can do, not even go outside to pick up newspaper. let alone writing word or going internet. doh...

minster11 said,

at that point there's really nothing he can do, not even go outside to pick up newspaper. let alone writing word or going internet. doh...

Actually, he'll have trouble trying to navigate Windows 8 (in its current state) long before he reaches the level of infirmity you describe. 8)

excalpius said,

He doesn't know Word is a program, he thinks his documents run themselves because when he clicks on them, they come up, he edits, saves, and prints from them.

As far as i remeber, Xerox Alto worked this way; was more document/file than program oriented.

excalpius said,

Really? My old man has been using Windows computers for over half of his life now and he just learned what the Start Button was...yesterday.

He doesn't know Word is a program, he thinks his documents run themselves because when he clicks on them, they come up, he edits, saves, and prints from them.

Etc. etc.

Why? Because he clicks icons on his desktop to run his favorite programs. He doesn't remember when I teach him new things. Not because he has Alzheimer's or something, but just because he is OLD. 8P

Move mouse, point and click, makes sense to him. It has always made sense to him. And he doesn't need to learn anything more to get through his day.

All of this sounds like an argument FOR the new changes. Windows 8, instead of having you click Start and hunt for a program, presents everything in front of you at the start. Point and click.

excalpius said,

Actually, he'll have trouble trying to navigate Windows 8 (in its current state) long before he reaches the level of infirmity you describe. 8)

Maybe your daddy-o. Mine is fine navigating window 8

excalpius said,

Really? My old man has been using Windows computers for over half of his life now and he just learned what the Start Button was...yesterday.

He doesn't know Word is a program, he thinks his documents run themselves because when he clicks on them, they come up, he edits, saves, and prints from them.

Etc. etc.

Why? Because he clicks icons on his desktop to run his favorite programs. He doesn't remember when I teach him new things. Not because he has Alzheimer's or something, but just because he is OLD. 8P

Move mouse, point and click, makes sense to him. It has always made sense to him. And he doesn't need to learn anything more to get through his day.

Touch would make sense to him...if his desktop monitor (like EVERYONE else's) wasn't too far away to be useful. This is the true fail of adapting a touch-based interface paradigm for desktop computers, by the way.

The truth is that 99% of the "innovations" we all have seen in the past 30 years have gone right past the everyday user. If they can ignore it, they will, because all the want is for the computer to just do what they ask it to do with a point and a click.

So no, they did not adapt. They ignored it and went on with their lives. And if MS tries to force a half-baked counter-intuitive INVISIBLE widgets and bars that perform CORE computer tasks GUI on them, they'll buy a Mac.

And they'd be right to do so.

Let's be clear. Metro is fine for touch-based tablets and phones but it needs to be OPTIONAL for desktop users...period.

Like widgets, jump lists, the start menu, etc. if MS gives user OPTIONS then they remain THE inclusive OS, rather than the "my way or the highway" OS.

IMHO, end-user Choice and Options are the reasons why Windows owns the desktop world.

Well, he is in a special group that doesn't affect the majority of users. People will adapt.

Sounds as if they are at least aware of the issues people are facing and aren't just trotting out the "You're holding it wrong" explanation. However I still think they are going to get crucified if they don't address some of the more hidden and schizophrenic features between metro/desktop.
At this point I can honestly see Microsoft putting back the release date so that they can work on both the OS itself and getting the new ways of doing things out into the media (sadly most people will just go by what the media tells them to - witness how many people who opine at great lengths about how bad Vista was, but can't come out with any actual reasons other than the fact that it wasn't XP.)

Edited by Pygmy_Hippo, Mar 9 2012, 1:52am :

Pygmy_Hippo said,
Sounds as if they are at least aware of the issues people are facing and aren't just trotting out the "You're holding it wrong" explanation.[...]

Maybe I was reading this article wrong, but actually that's just what they are doing!

GS:mac

Glassed Silver said,

Maybe I was reading this article wrong, but actually that's just what they are doing!
GS:mac

I felt it was a more conciliatory than just inferring that the target audience is at fault. Let's face it, Windows has hardly changed since 1995 (and it has had a lot of stick for being so traditional) so it is going to be a steep learning curve when migrating to a new system, we're just too comfortable. I've not found it easy to translate all of my knowledge of Microsoft OS's when using OSX or other Linux flavours - but hey, that's what makes it fun!!

Pygmy_Hippo said,
At this point I can honestly see Microsoft putting back the release date so that they can work on both the OS itself and getting the new ways of doing things out into the media

Here is the thing. By now we've all had one week to play with Windows 8. People love it or hate it. We've read stories on how good it is and how bad it is. But here is the thing, this OS was clearly designed for a touch environment and neglected the desktop environment. It seems like Microsoft is trying to get their foot in the tablet market. But guess what yesterday was? It was the iPad announcement day. Seems like I'm going off topic doesn't it?

But what does this have to do with anything? Well, Apple was brilliant yesterday. They came out with a tablet called the New iPad and will continue to sell the iPad 2 at a discount price. Two things here. One, the name "New" is tapping into peoples psychology (OK that one was off-topic but it had to be mentioned). People want "New" so people will buy spend money on a "New" tablet. Second, people that aren't susceptible to this kind of marketing now have a cheaper option to go with. The iPad 2 just killed the competition. Yes, I said the iPad 2 not the New iPad.

People know that the iPad right now is the tablet to get, but now they can get it for cheaper. When Windows Tablets come out will they be priced at $399? NO!

Bottom line, Microsoft needs to assess what is happening here. A lot of people are not liking it on the desktop. When people say Windows 8 sucks, they are mostly talking about the desktop. Very few people have a tablet to test this on. So the name will be tarnished and yesterday the bell has tolled for Microsoft's tablet dreams.

Just my two cents.

Edit: Not just for Windows 8 Tablets but for Android as well.

Pretty good analysis. Only MS hasn't begun the modern tablet fight yet. I think Metro on Windows tablets running Windows apps will be a huge success. However, forcing it on the desktop will, as you mentioned, tarnish the name and keep Apple and Android in the game as meaningful players for years to come.

MorganX said,
Pretty good analysis. Only MS hasn't begun the modern tablet fight yet. I think Metro on Windows tablets running Windows apps will be a huge success. However, forcing it on the desktop will, as you mentioned, tarnish the name and keep Apple and Android in the game as meaningful players for years to come.

MorganX said,
Pretty good analysis. Only MS hasn't begun the modern tablet fight yet. I think Metro on Windows tablets running Windows apps will be a huge success. However, forcing it on the desktop will, as you mentioned, tarnish the name and keep Apple and Android in the game as meaningful players for years to come.

The thing is, Apple just gave a big fat FU*k YOU to it's competitors. Right now that is Android. And of course they will continue this till next year when Windows 8 is released. Your average consumer will have no choice but to go with Apple.

How can I recommend anything but the iPad 2 or New iPad? Nothing at it's level can compete with it. It has an established name, lots of apps, and now a great price. Android can't compete until the manufactures wake up. If Android can't do it, Windows 8 surely won't.

UndergroundWire said,

Here is the thing. By now we've all had one week to play with Windows 8. People love it or hate it. We've read stories on how good it is and how bad it is. But here is the thing, this OS was clearly designed for a touch environment and neglected the desktop environment. It seems like Microsoft is trying to get their foot in the tablet market. But guess what yesterday was? It was the iPad announcement day. Seems like I'm going off topic doesn't it?

But what does this have to do with anything? Well, Apple was brilliant yesterday. They came out with a tablet called the New iPad and will continue to sell the iPad 2 at a discount price. Two things here. One, the name "New" is tapping into peoples psychology (OK that one was off-topic but it had to be mentioned). People want "New" so people will buy spend money on a "New" tablet. Second, people that aren't susceptible to this kind of marketing now have a cheaper option to go with. The iPad 2 just killed the competition. Yes, I said the iPad 2 not the New iPad.

People know that the iPad right now is the tablet to get, but now they can get it for cheaper. When Windows Tablets come out will they be priced at $399? NO!

Bottom line, Microsoft needs to assess what is happening here. A lot of people are not liking it on the desktop. When people say Windows 8 sucks, they are mostly talking about the desktop. Very few people have a tablet to test this on. So the name will be tarnished and yesterday the bell has tolled for Microsoft's tablet dreams.

Just my two cents.

Edit: Not just for Windows 8 Tablets but for Android as well.


I could actually see Windows tablets being priced at well below the 400$ point, even close to launch. By 2013 isn't Acer going to release an Ultrabook near the 500$ point? and that's with x86 CPU, full hard drive, etc. Now try ARM CPU, relatively small SSD drive or a pretty big but cheap HDD, and take away the keyboard/mouse, plus Microsoft will most likely sell the ARM version of 8 much cheaper (from what I understand of it, they won't actually be selling the ARM version as a standalone product, it'll be sold straight to OEM, thus making it easier to create mass-market deals). So yeah, if Acer can make a pretty good Ultrabook under the 500$ price point, I don't see why other companies can't make mediocre Windows 8 tablets that'll sell under the $400 price point. my 2 cents

Yes Microsoft, we are well aware of where the start button moved to. This isn't the complaint though and does not address the complaint at all.

Walkie/Talkie said,
Yes Microsoft, we are well aware of where the start button moved to. This isn't the complaint though and does not address the complaint at all.

This.

lol, their defense is a pretty hard fail.

GS:mac

Glassed Silver said,

This.

lol, their defense is a pretty hard fail.

GS:mac

Not sure why everyone is complaining about this... Just press the windows key and type in the application you want. It's faster and has better search than the start menu ever did.

It's also in the bottom left corner where it previously was... just click in the bottom left corner and it opens the Start Screen. I find that faster than using the charm bar.

Love it

j2006 said,
It's also in the bottom left corner where it previously was... just click in the bottom left corner and it opens the Start Screen. I find that faster than using the charm bar.

Love it

no that's diffrent. the one on the right shows all your apps (like the old start button but one less click) the one at the bottom left only shows the programs/apps you have pinned

dafin0 said,

no that's diffrent. the one on the right shows all your apps (like the old start button but one less click) the one at the bottom left only shows the programs/apps you have pinned

Just tried it and they both take you to the same place.

Stetson said,

Just tried it and they both take you to the same place.

my bad i was thinking of the "search" button

dafin0 said,

my bad i was thinking of the "search" button


Yea, the big problem here isn't how you get to the start screen, it's how you have to then right-click the start screen and select its single menu item to see all the apps.

Good thing search is as great as ever.

but we already knew this... since the moment we saw that the start button was gone, we knew the start button moved to the right hand side..

Azies said,
but we already knew this... since the moment we saw that the start button was gone, we knew the start button moved to the right hand side..

Exactly! Problem lies in the absence of start menu rather than the start button.....and Microsoft refuses to address that....very bluntly in fact!

Mohitster said,

Exactly! Problem lies in the absence of start menu rather than the start button.....and Microsoft refuses to address that....very bluntly in fact!

very true, and they lost my sale

Mohitster said,

Exactly! Problem lies in the absence of start menu rather than the start button.....and Microsoft refuses to address that....very bluntly in fact!
The start menu has moved to a start screen.

nekrosoft13 said,

very true, and they lost my sale

Boohoo Now, I am sure MS will work as hard as they can to get you back.. But wait.. I will bet you will be running WIN8 in a year..

paulheu said,
Boohoo Now, I am sure MS will work as hard as they can to get you back.. But wait.. I will bet you will be running WIN8 in a year..

You know what, they lost a sale with me as well, but a sale worth 1200 desktops.

No plugins in Metro IE means no corporate apps running in it and constant roundtrips between the start panel and the desktop whenever users (for example) need to hit an app's or the system's file open MRU.
Basic users (not us) will be completely lost and the additional training costs are gonna be through the roof (you should have seen their faces when Office 2010 rolled out on our machines after their training...)
FOUR steps to reboot/shutdown your computer? Most users will be lost at the second if they ever manage to get the charms bar to show up in a timely and constant manner. (which it doesn't right now...)
This release is a disaster in waiting from a UI point.

I've made that clear to our MS Account manager and he had diddly squat to reply, perfectly knowing many other enterprise IT managers are thinking the same.

Even Apple had it right damnit ! Take the same kernel, develop a touch centric UI for touch devices, and THEN bring some of the releveant features to the desktop OS without totally overhauling it.

We are gonna stick to Windows 7 for as long as this nonsense will be maintained by Microsoft.

Arkos Reed said,

You know what, they lost a sale with me as well, but a sale worth 1200 desktops.

No plugins in Metro IE means no corporate apps running in it and constant roundtrips between the start panel and the desktop whenever users (for example) need to hit an app's or the system's file open MRU.
Basic users (not us) will be completely lost and the additional training costs are gonna be through the roof (you should have seen their faces when Office 2010 rolled out on our machines after their training...)
FOUR steps to reboot/shutdown your computer? Most users will be lost at the second if they ever manage to get the charms bar to show up in a timely and constant manner. (which it doesn't right now...)
This release is a disaster in waiting from a UI point.

I've made that clear to our MS Account manager and he had diddly squat to reply, perfectly knowing many other enterprise IT managers are thinking the same.

Even Apple had it right damnit ! Take the same kernel, develop a touch centric UI for touch devices, and THEN bring some of the releveant features to the desktop OS without totally overhauling it.

We are gonna stick to Windows 7 for as long as this nonsense will be maintained by Microsoft.

But you still have desktop IE, with all your plugins. You don't need to use Metro IE at all.

The desktop apps still use the same old MRU. They don't pop up Metro MRUs at all.

This will be unfamiliar to basic users but big tiles to click on and no window management are easier to learn for those new to computers (aka basic users) than the desktop is. However, since you're sticking with the desktop in your company, training is virtually identical to before. Pin your line-of-business apps to the taskbar and that's all they'll click on all day erry day.

Four steps? Reboot on 7 is
Mouse to bottom-left -> click -> mouse to little arrow beside power button -> click -> select reboot
Reboot on 8 is
Mouse to top or bottom right -> mouse to settings -> click ->mouse to power (which should already be near your mouse) -> click -> select reboot.
Doesn't really seem longer to me, for an action you almost NEVER need to do. Are your employers really rebooting all day?

burnblue said,

But you still have desktop IE, with all your plugins. You don't need to use Metro IE at all.

The desktop apps still use the same old MRU. They don't pop up Metro MRUs at all.

This will be unfamiliar to basic users but big tiles to click on and no window management are easier to learn for those new to computers (aka basic users) than the desktop is. However, since you're sticking with the desktop in your company, training is virtually identical to before. Pin your line-of-business apps to the taskbar and that's all they'll click on all day erry day.

Four steps? Reboot on 7 is
Mouse to bottom-left -> click -> mouse to little arrow beside power button -> click -> select reboot
Reboot on 8 is
Mouse to top or bottom right -> mouse to settings -> click ->mouse to power (which should already be near your mouse) -> click -> select reboot.
Doesn't really seem longer to me, for an action you almost NEVER need to do. Are your employers really rebooting all day?

Let's not forget that on top of doing the above you can apparently remove the start screen with GP so they can only have the desktop / pinned apps.

Bertch said,

Let's not forget that on top of doing the above you can apparently remove the start screen with GP so they can only have the desktop / pinned apps.


Only on the server version, the GP doesn't work on clients

Have you ever walked a clueless user through this process? I handle 40-45 help Desk requests a day, I don't have time to explain a convoluted process. Windows 7 is simple, and almost the same as XP in the UI (for the general user). Windows 8 is not, and developed for Tablets, Windows 8 needs two flavors desktop, and tablet. Enterprise, and Home for hobbits like yourself.


burnblue said,

But you still have desktop IE, with all your plugins. You don't need to use Metro IE at all.

The desktop apps still use the same old MRU. They don't pop up Metro MRUs at all.

This will be unfamiliar to basic users but big tiles to click on and no window management are easier to learn for those new to computers (aka basic users) than the desktop is. However, since you're sticking with the desktop in your company, training is virtually identical to before. Pin your line-of-business apps to the taskbar and that's all they'll click on all day erry day.

Four steps? Reboot on 7 is
Mouse to bottom-left -> click -> mouse to little arrow beside power button -> click -> select reboot
Reboot on 8 is
Mouse to top or bottom right -> mouse to settings -> click ->mouse to power (which should already be near your mouse) -> click -> select reboot.
Doesn't really seem longer to me, for an action you almost NEVER need to do. Are your employers really rebooting all day?

virtorio said,
Well that changes everything. I'm sold.

I lost a bit of faith when I first saw Windows 8 and all the UI changes but mainly this is what bothered me... but then I thought about it for a while and I thought hm when do I really use the start menu.. I found I mainly use application shortcuts from the taskbar and very rarely the start menu (which could just be moved to the desktop).

Maybe Windows 8 wont be such a problem, I know people say the devil lies in the details but maybe it's just peoples natural fear of change.

Whats the big deal?, exactly the same thing happened with the early Windows 7 beta's. No "Start Button", everyone panicked!

By the time Win7 was released, everything, including the "Start Button" was back as normal.

dvb2000 said,
Whats the big deal?, exactly the same thing happened with the early Windows 7 beta's. No "Start Button", everyone panicked!

By the time Win7 was released, everything, including the "Start Button" was back as normal.

You definitely are a martian.

Classic start menu is missing in Windows 7 but Microsoft compromised screwing users over and didn't make 7 use ALL your RAM the first moment you got to use 7, just 80% of it.

Of course I'm using XP and I don't have ANY OF THESE ISSUES! =)

JAB Creations said,
Classic start menu is missing in Windows 7 but Microsoft compromised screwing users over and didn't make 7 use ALL your RAM the first moment you got to use 7, just 80% of it.

Of course I'm using XP and I don't have ANY OF THESE ISSUES! =)


Go learn how superfetch works.

Making use of the RAM you payed good money for is a good thing, and Windows 7 does this by preemptively caching data that you are likely to load from disk at some point into memory, which improves performance greatly. There's NO DOWNSIDE to this extra memory usage because the cache is held at low low priority and will be purged from RAM when something else needs it.

By contrast, Windows XP just lets all that RAM sit there, empty, being wasted...