No Boot Clean Installs Using Windows Vista Upgrade Discs

Although it has been discussed to death here, some official coverage on the front page is needed. Thanks to Ambiance for posting a direct response from Microsoft about the issue.

Unlike with the Windows XP Upgrade CD, with Windows Vista users are forced to have a valid install of Windows XP Home or Professional on their machines before upgrading with a Vista Upgrade DVD. This typically isn't a big deal for the majority of users on the first install of Vista; but think about the necessary steps if you already have Vista installed or no operating system on the computer:

  1. Install a genuine copy of Windows XP Home/Professional
  2. Activate Windows XP through Microsoft
  3. Upgrade to Windows Vista from within Windows XP
Either shell out the extra cash for the full version or be prepared for the extended process of installing XP, and then Vista. Of course there is always the OEM road, but remember that such a copy is limited to the computer it is first activated on.

News source: DailyTech (Thanks RAID 0)

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From reading all these posts, I surmise that because I have an upgrade disk for XP, I cannot upgrade to the Vista Premium home?

Also, could trying to install Vista, somehow have erased or hid all my logical partitions? Now I can't even make a partition to add Vista as a separate OS.

Also, I notice that the aborted install changed some of my XP application's (in Control panel) names to say Vista.... Hmmm!?

This video link shows my results from the last 3 days and frustrating experience so far.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVJfuFfpbIU
(Vista upgrade, should I or shouldn't I?)

I have changed my mind, not because of the no boot time installation, but because the possibility of hardware failure in the future as well as upgrading of hardware.

When you purchase the upgrade it invalidates your license of XP. If you want to transfer your copy to another machine it will prove a headache as it might not be possible unless you have ghosted an image of your HD.

Vista was supposed to bring more clarity, yet under the hood the fine print is so small the hubble couldn't read it.

I am glad I asked about transferring my license in the Vista communities as I almost wasted a good sum of money.

I sent an email to Paul Thurrott of "WindowsITPro" Magazine and "WinSuperSite.com", he did a lengthy review of Vista and claimed it was possible to do a clean install booting from the Vista Upgrade CD. My email explained to him that this may not be possible, this is his responce:

"Actually, this is how you do it, according to Microsoft’s internal documentation. I’ll have to test this, but this is what they’re saying internally.

"The following steps provide a workaround if you need to clean install Windows Vista provided with these conditions:
- You have an upgrade product key for Windows Vista
- There is not a supported operating system installed on the computer
- You are required to install Windows Vista by booting to the DVD to start the installation.
Method/workaround:
1. Boot to the Windows Vista DVD
2. Start the setup routine by clicking on Install Now
3. When prompted for the product key, do not enter a product key and click next.
4. You will be prompted to confirm that you wish to continue with the install without entering a product key. Click on No, to continue.
5. When prompted for the edition of Windows Vista, select the edition corresponding to your Windows Vista upgrade product key.
6. Continue with a clean installation.
7. Once the installation has been completed successfully, restart the setup routine within the Windows Vista. This is also known as an in-place upgrade.
8. When prompted for the product key, enter your Windows Vista upgrade product key.""

I am not sure if this works or not, but it seems possible... can anyone with an upgrade disc verify it is at least bootable?

I thought all versions except for Starter shipped with a 32bit and x64 version on the disc. How is this possible if the x64 and 32bit images would not fit on one DVD (I had to download separate ISOs during the preview)? Is it available only with the Ultimate edition?

The retail Ultimate (both upgrade and full install) comes with both a 32-bit and a 64-bit DVD, from what I have read on the net. No other retail version has both in it like Ultimate. No OEM version has both in it either.

lets remember that the upgrade throws the old install of windows into a seperate folder so there's no chance of having old or buggy drivers/system files causing trouble. but still, it would be nice to have a clean partition table.

You can do it only once and never do it again.
Install Xp, upgrade to Vista, and image the damn partition on a DVD, make it bootable by acronis or ghost and voila.

So if I get a virus on my Vista install and have to reformat, I have to reformat to XP, then re-upgrade to Vista (that's assuming I haven't over-used my no. of activations for XP?)

You know why they're doing this, don't you? So you can buy the retail version. You know, the one that's almost double the price of the upgrade version (and before this was announced, could do the same thing).

Last time I checked, there was no such thing as an "upgrade" key, only retail and OEM keys. Go "find" a retail disc and see if that doesn't solve some problems.

I will get flamed for this but people should stop complaining. You buy an upgrade copy expect to have to upgrade a copy of windows.

What is the problem with that?

So... What will happen for the next version of Vista (let's call it Blackcomb), if we buy the upgrade version of that ?

In 2011, we'll have to install XP, activate it, install Vista, activate it, and the install Blackcomb ?? Chances are XP won't event boot on 2011 hardware

Exactly. They will have to change the system to just allow the previous product key to be input, rather requiring an install. I don't know why they didn't do that this time.

Flippin' heck, read the rest of the comments. YES, you can do a clean install from within XP. NO, you can't do a clean install from boot. The title says "No Boot Clean Installs", which explains that you can't do a clean install from boot.

Don't waste time posting comments if you're not going to bother reading a) the article, or b) other comments.

screw having to install vista from within windows... ill just get a shady copy when it's time to move on from xp... but for now ill stick with xp.

I can't believe you people are advocating trying to use a copy of Windows Vista on any other machine than the one it was first installed on!!! You guys are talking like pirates! Did you not read the EULA where it specifically states that for each machine you own or use you MUST buy a SEPARATE Vista license?
It's people like you what makes software so expensive!

hapbt said,
I can't believe you people are advocating trying to use a copy of Windows Vista on any other machine than the one it was first installed on!!! You guys are talking like pirates! Did you not read the EULA where it specifically states that for each machine you own or use you MUST buy a SEPARATE Vista license?
It's people like you what makes software so expensive!

Greetings!
It's year 2007 now and WWII is ended..yes you can come out from your cave.

hapbt said,
I can't believe you people are advocating trying to use a copy of Windows Vista on any other machine than the one it was first installed on!!! You guys are talking like pirates! Did you not read the EULA where it specifically states that for each machine you own or use you MUST buy a SEPARATE Vista license?
It's people like you what makes software so expensive!

ok so what your saying is if my pc dies or i build a new one and break the old one or format and donate it then i should be forced to buy a new copy of vista
that not talking like a pirate thats talking like a person who own's a legit copy / lic.

ps

i rad all the comment's and all they want to do is upgrade but on a clean formated install from dos/boot instead on vista on top of xp

blanger said,
Now I'm even more confused. Specifically from a Vista Business installation can you upgrade directly to Vista Ultimate? It seems that Vista Business is omitted from the list of Vista versions you cannot upgrade from here:
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx/kb/930985/en-us

You can upgrade using the Anytime upgrade to ultimate or buying a Vista Ultimate upgrade disc. Basically any version of vista can be upgraded to the Ultimate Edition.

I'd say its just not THE BEST reason to avoid Vista, but it's still technically a good reason.
A better reason would be that it sucks, and will crush your PC.

hapbt said,
I'd say its just not THE BEST reason to avoid Vista, but it's still technically a good reason.
A better reason would be that it sucks, and will crush your PC.

Hmm, my pc is in fact not crushed yet. My copy of Vista must be broken.

g0wg that's the simplest solution. I am trying to find out if after the vista installation if you can reinstall it without first installing XP. WHen I get teh upgrade I will do a clean installation then backup the installation so I will never have to reinstall.

erm ... can't you install xp, install vista, install drivers, activate, stick in Ghost, do image of boot drive and everytime you want to format you just reuse the disk image?

That applies to if you want to upgrade from booting from the DVD. You can still do a clean installation on all versions by booting to Xp first.

Well before I go buy the OEM version instead of the upgrade version because of this and several other reasons (didn't realise it nuked the xp license and I dont want to waste our only copy of xp pro), are the recovery tools still available on the OEM disk? Also can a put my XP Pro OEM on a different computer?

Thanks

You don't have to activate the xp you upgrade from.........
Well, I didn't (my XP Pro is legit, MSDNAA) - i installed it, and then 'upgraded' clean install to vista business, not installing anything (no lan drivers - no activation) and it didn't complain.
BTW I still think this is stupid, i want to be able to dvd boot, format and then install vista, but my u/g copy is free, so i'll make do for the sake of £300!

Same here, and if you create another user when vista is installed and delete the user you used to upgrade from you will practically have a clean install.

Exactly. The thing is, I assume they are doing this because they want to make sure you had a legit copy, and not just a copy, of XP. As for 2000, I don't know, since that didn't have activation. If they aren't doing this to make sure you had a legit copy, it makes NO sense.


Again, an example of anti-piracy measures as the ultimate way to **** consumers off

Julius Caro said,
Exactly. The thing is, I assume they are doing this because they want to make sure you had a legit copy, and not just a copy, of XP. As for 2000, I don't know, since that didn't have activation. If they aren't doing this to make sure you had a legit copy, it makes NO sense.


Again, an example of anti-piracy measures as the ultimate way to **** consumers off

Legit copy = legit license key.

edit: also the thing is: boot clean installation can STILL check for your "legit" copy of windows xp. Hell, there are MANY ways to have BOTH boot clean installation PLUS checking "legit" windows copy. M$ is deliberately crippling legit users.

Why can't the Windows Vista Upgrade install just ask for a valid Windows XP key along with the media and "activate" it or whatever?

What happens with the next version of Windows when I want to upgrade from my Vista upgrade? Am I going to have to install Windows XP, then Windows Vista Upgrade, and then Windows bull**** edition?

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/getr...pgradeinfo.mspx

God, somebody please edit this news title!!!
If that Microsoft page is right...
You CAN perform a clean install if you start the installer from within XP. The title of the news suggests that you can't perform a clean install AT ALL.

Can people just make a difference between INSTALLING IT FROM BOOT UP and INSTALLING IT FROM WINDOWS?

What microsoft has changed is the "insert a CD of the previous version of windows you own". Now, since they don't want you to be eligible for a vista upgrade (let's say "upgrade discount cause we know you are good customer that spent many dollars in a previous version of windows) if you had a pirated version of XP, they require now that you install it from an activated copy of XP.

The ability of performing clean installs is still there, I suppose. If that "upgrade planning" page is correct.

I know having to install xp before vista anytime is a pain down *there* , but God you can still have your shiny clean install !! The title of this news suggests: upgrade versions means your installation will ALWAYS be a windowsxp "upgraded".

1. Clean installs from XP... POSSIBLE!
2. Clean installs with an UPGRADE key by booting the disc. NOT POSSIBLE.

You know what's funny? This "direct response from microsoft" doesn't even SUGGEST the idea of not being able to perform a clean install.

Julius Caro said,
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/getr...pgradeinfo.mspx

God, somebody please edit this news title!!!
If that Microsoft page is right...
You CAN perform a clean install if you start the installer from within XP. The title of the news suggests that you can't perform a clean install AT ALL.


Clean to me means there's nothing on the disc. If you start the "clean" install from within XP, files are written to the disc you're installing onto, just like when you do it in 2000 going to XP. You don't get the choice to format the disc, and those files are still there.

Good point. On the Neowin page, I like the idea of installing to another partition. I don't really get what is meant on the Microsoft page.

I agree with you ambiance. What a good way to confuse everyone Neowin. You can do a clean install by loading into xp first. It's called a wipe-and-reload andf it's in the vista product guide.

Way to confuse me yet again!

I am purchasing an upgrade version and was planning to do a clean install from within windows and all of a sudden that is not possible.

I am glad I skimmed through the article to find you can do a clean install with an upgrade copy, you just have to do it through the windows environment.

What this article should say is you can't do a boot time installation with an upgrade, but you can do a clean install. It just requires the windows environment.

Thanks Deihmos.


You can upgrade from your current edition of Microsoft Windows XP or Windows 2000 to a corresponding or better edition of Windows Vista by purchasing and installing an upgrade copy of Windows Vista. Depending on which edition of Windows you are running and the edition of Windows Vista you would like to install, you have two options for the installation process:

In-place upgrade
You can upgrade in-place, which means you can install Windows Vista and retain your applications, files, and settings as they were in your previous edition of Windows.

Clean install
Upgrading to Windows Vista with a clean install means that you should use Windows Easy Transfer to automatically copy all your files and settings to an extra hard drive or other storage device, and then install Windows Vista. After the installation is complete, Windows Easy Transfer will reload your files and settings on your upgraded PC. You will then need to reinstall your applications.

You can still do a clean install with the upgrade edition people.

My two cents: I think Vista will be a big fiasco, since it is so hardware intensive, and with all these roadblocks, not too many people will be eager to switch.

Hold it, lets say one purchased a full retail version of Vista Home Premium or Vista Business and later on decides to upgrade to Vista Ultimate and goes out and purchases the retail Vista Ultimate upgrade, you cannot upgrade directly from the legitimate retail Home Premium or Business installation that is already on the PC without first reverting back to XP? I just want to make sure I have this right.

You don't go out and purchase Vista Ultimate upgrade in that case. You use the Windows Anytime Upgrade program instead, over phone or internet. You use the original disc (home premium or business in this case) and just purchase a different key.

Ugh, I just bought a new 500 gig drive and was going to buy Vista Ultimate Upgrade this week and install to the new drive, copy what I needed over from the old 120 gig XP drive, then after a month or so of not needing anything off the old drive, reformat the old drive as additional storage.

Guess that scenario isn't on MS's list of valid methods of upgrading to Vista.

While I have to do it this way anyway (as my Toshiba laptop comes with a restore disc containing a disc image, not an actual Windows installation CD), it is still a pain to have to go though all this. I wonder if they've improved the Vista upgrade installation in terms of cleaning up the previous OS files and registry settings.

COMPLETELY RETARDED... It makes absolutely no sense that you can't make a clean install. Who the hell anyway "upgrades" within another version of windows?!??!? NOBODY! I really hope someone will make a disk that accepts upgrade keys that you can clean install with.... damn this company is getting on my nerves

um? Vista upgrade works fine for me with a blank hard drive? And yes this is with an Upgrade disc Got it from MS at the MS Campus the other week... its a retail Vista Pro Upgrade disc

neufuse said,
um? Vista upgrade works fine for me with a blank hard drive? And yes this is with an Upgrade disc Got it from MS at the MS Campus the other week... its a retail Vista Pro Upgrade disc

which version is vista pro?

BUT it says on the Vista Ultimate Upgrade box- Installation will require the a pre-formatted hdd to install.

i work in retail and i have been confused even more with this upgrade issue.

and since the upgrade ultiamte will contain 32-bit and 64-bit in hte box- does the key only work with one type? or can the 64bit be also used in the future with the same key?

All you need to do is choose clean install within XP, then it'll dump the Vista image on your harddrive, move the windows directory to windows.old, and delete everything else...

If what evolution says it's true, then the news title is totally misleading.
It makes sense if you CAN perform the clean install... but microsoft should have thought of another way of checking for legit XP copies...

What Evolution said is true. When you insert Vista into a XP machine the disc will ask you if you wanna do a custom install(clean) or upgrade.

Julius Caro said,
If what evolution says it's true, then the news title is totally misleading.

The title says no boot clean installs. I will assume they mean no booting with the Vista disk and installing on a clean HDD. The title isn't misleading.

What an absolute waste of time. I have a valid XP licence. I was hoping to upgrade to Vista with an Upgrade disc.

I think I won't install Vista until they come out with a new installer / DVD for the upgrade edition.

DrunkenMaster said,
What an absolute waste of time. I have a valid XP licence. I was hoping to upgrade to Vista with an Upgrade disc.

I think I won't install Vista until they come out with a new installer / DVD for the upgrade edition.


Then you will never install Vista! The only way for Microsoft to verify your XP is legal is to make you install it and activate it first, then running the upgrade. It is impossible to tell just by scanning your XP cd during the setup.

TCLN Ryster said,

Then you will never install Vista! The only way for Microsoft to verify your XP is legal is to make you install it and activate it first, then running the upgrade. It is impossible to tell just by scanning your XP cd during the setup.

Maybe they should have thought ahead a bit more. Why not just have them check the serial number on their fancy authentication servers after Vista is installed (since it needs a Network connection)? since they have all the lockout features in Vista, they can disable your connection if you can't put your XP serial and your Vista one within a certain number of days. Heck they should be happy that their customers are upgrading from their previous OSes.

Then you will never install Vista! The only way for Microsoft to verify your XP is legal is to make you install it and activate it first, then running the upgrade. It is impossible to tell just by scanning your XP cd during the setup.

Which is pretty stupid.

They should've just had it double-check the XP key and the upgrade key (and possibly the XP CD in the drive) instead. It would save a lot of time.

I'm sure some clever person will release a special disk that allows you to install from boot but accepts an upgrade key =)

When I read the title I thought "Ermm... old news", good thing you guys realize that urselves.

1. I have Vista Ultimate Edition (Full), so I kinda don't care
2. I would never upgrade my system, a clean install is most oftenly (if not always) better
3. If you can't afford Vista, stick with XP
4. If you can afford Vista, you will obviously have the brain capacity to go with option 2
5. If none of this applies to you, still go with option 2 :)

Edit: ok there is one reason to use the upgrade, if the buggy Vista setup gives you BSODs when you boot from it :). But then again, you don't care, and the news item won't bother you.

youve missed the point

2. I would never upgrade my system, a clean install is most oftenly (if not always) better

With XP upgrade cd's you CAN do a clean install. The 'upgrade' was more a reference in that you are upgrading your license or something. You have the option to do an install over the previous OS to retain settings OR do a full clean install. You also didnt need the previous OS to be installed at the time, just the disk and cd key.

I'm still wondering.. that post with the direct response from Microsoft says that you'll have to run the installer FROM WITHIN XP.
Does that mean you can't perform CLEAN installs from within xp?

Only on another partition? Can't the installer "put the installation files" on the current partition and wipe the rest or something? You can perform XP clean installs running the installer from within windows, if I'm not mistaken... even with windows 2000 you could ...

Kushan said,
You can, you can still install to another partition. So really this makes no sense =

Actually it makes perfect sense. The whole point behind this is that it would be next to impossible to verify your XP cd as legal or not if you didn't have to install it and activate it first. Making people first install XP and activate it before allowing an upgrade is simply a way to verify you are not updating a pirated copy of XP, thereby fraudulently getting upgrade prices.

TCLN Ryster said,

Actually it makes perfect sense. The whole point behind this is that it would be next to impossible to verify your XP cd as legal or not if you didn't have to install it and activate it first. Making people first install XP and activate it before allowing an upgrade is simply a way to verify you are not updating a pirated copy of XP, thereby fraudulently getting upgrade prices.

why couldnt they just allow the "activation" process to be part of the vista installation. Make you connect online or something durring the install and provide the necessary info + have an xp cd in the drive without asking for the full OS to be installed.

I would call that a major inconvenience. Why should i need to go through all that hassle to put it on a new machine. Talk about control. Where does the customer come first? People are going to pirate this whether they like it or no but they insist on making it difficult for paying customers. I love they way company's are trying to protect themselves at the cost of the costumer. I wouldnt cal it myth busted, how many non tech people will get through all the hoops to move it to a new pc.

Mekun said,
I would call that a major inconvenience. Why should i need to go through all that hassle to put it on a new machine. Talk about control. Where does the customer come first? People are going to pirate this whether they like it or no but they insist on making it difficult for paying customers. I love they way company's are trying to protect themselves at the cost of the costumer. I wouldnt cal it myth busted, how many non tech people will get through all the hoops to move it to a new pc.

How many non-tech people would even buy and install a new OS? (Though, from the looks of it, it's almost exactly the same as activating XP after you run out of online activations.)

"People are going to pirate this whether they like it or no but they insist on making it difficult for paying customers."

Right. Burglars are going to break into your house anyway, so why bother locking it up at all and causing yourself all the inconvenience of having to unlock your house every time you come home?

And while you're at it, why not just leave all your valuables in plain sight in the living room so the burglars don't have to strain themselves trying to find them? Maybe a big red neon arrow pointing at your cash would also help!

Octol said,
"People are going to pirate this whether they like it or no but they insist on making it difficult for paying customers."

Right. Burglars are going to break into your house anyway, so why bother locking it up at all and causing yourself all the inconvenience of having to unlock your house every time you come home?

And while you're at it, why not just leave all your valuables in plain sight in the living room so the burglars don't have to strain themselves trying to find them? Maybe a big red neon arrow pointing at your cash would also help!

So i should make my family climb down the chimney to get in the house? I think think your fanboi shirt is showing. Come up with a reasonable argument. I tell the doctor i have a wart on my big toe does he remove the foot?? Idiot.

Mekun said,

So i should make my family climb down the chimney to get in the house? I think think your fanboi shirt is showing. Come up with a reasonable argument. I tell the doctor i have a wart on my big toe does he remove the foot?? Idiot.

No, you let your family in through the front door, what are you some kind of idiot? *I just had to say it since you seem to think throwing insults around is cute*

You're coming up with scenarios that don't even compare.

People don't seem to understand.

OEM or Full version copies work just like they always did.

The only difference is with an Upgrade copy they actually require you to prove that you are eligible.

Just admit it, you're a pirate and that's why you have to insult Microsoft, you're a freeloader who's ****ed that your free ride is over.

Why don't you just grow up.

"So i should make my family climb down the chimney to get in the house? I think think your fanboi shirt is showing. Come up with a reasonable argument. I tell the doctor i have a wart on my big toe does he remove the foot?? Idiot. "

Fanboi? Yes, I'm a fanboy of intellectual honesty rather than self-serving deception and spin.

You are the one with the unreasonable argument: that Microsoft should not inconvenience its paying customers by protecting its intellectual property because the scumbags are going to steal it anyway. Well that is exactly analogous to leaving the house open to everyone because burglars are going to come in anyway.

And don't say activation is tantamount to making your "family climb down the chimney to get in the house." It's more like you having to pass through an extra-secure door the first time you enter the house. After that, your family can enter using a simple key (password).

If people depended on the honor system instead of locks to protect their valuables, they'd soon enough not have any because there's no shortage of dishonest individuals willing to steal them.

This philosophy applies whether or not Microsoft is involved. One doesn't need to be a Microsoft fanboy to approve of any company or individual taking whatever steps are necessary to protect their property from thieves.

[quote
Just admit it, you're a pirate and that's why you have to insult Microsoft, you're a freeloader who's ****ed that your free ride is over.

Why don't you just grow up.

Nice troll you accuse me of pirating. I own my copy of Vista. Try reading what i was talking about then reply.

Ms has plenty of protection without the need of calling home every 6 months or having to call ms to put it on a new pc. And yes the chimney does work using your key to go in the front door isnt enough anymore. Your more for corporations than the user, which is a shameful attitude. Heres your scenario, Bad people use guns so to protect the police from getting shot we are going to take away guns. You dont need a gun unless your a bad "pirate" person. Bad guys still have guns though........