Nokia claims virtually all Apple devices violate its patents

Nokia began a legal fight with Apple in October this year when they announced their plans to sue Apple over the iPhone.

Today Nokia filed a complaint with the International Trade Commission (ITC) saying almost all of the company's products violate its patents not just the Apple iPhone. According to Reuters, Nokia believes Apple's iPhone, iPods and computers all violate its intellectual property rights.

Nokia, the world's giant in the manufacturing of mobile phone technology, sued Apple in October for infringing patents on mobile phone technology used in the iPhone. According to Nokia the patent breach applied to all iPhones since its launch in 2007. Nokia accused Apple of "trying to get a free ride on the back of Nokia's innovation". These alleged infringements, of which there were ten- involved wireless data, speech coding, security and encryption. Nokia have said that they hold agreements with roughly forty firms who use the technology which Nokia has worked hard to develop, including most mobile phone handset makers - allowing them to use the firm's technology. Apple however, have not signed any such agreement with Nokia and as such find themselves in this situation.

The ITC is expected to make a decision on whether to pursue the case by the end of January.

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GO nokia you blast them with that anti reality distortion ray zzzzt zzzzzzzzzzzaaaaaaaat take that jobs

now back to reality it'll be interesting to see where this leads if it makes it to court

oh and I'm a PC actually strike that im an home built personal office photo video audio manipulation and games machine there that sounds better :P

No ideas are original any more. I hope Nokia wins because this "does" seem like a pretty blatant violation, but we all have to face the fact that every good idea is going to be stolen, modified, and reproduced by somebody else, if not now then in the future, and a lot of times not even intentionally.

I'm usually against frivolous patent disputes, like the very generic patent of Custom XML that was somewhat conceeded to a company called i4i when XML has became a standard for custom description of data and they are now suing Microsoft's Word for using it. That's ridiculous, if it is a standard you can't patent it. But I digress. I thought Nokia might be suing for some frivolous generic concept that they might have invented in the world of cellphones, but I read that Apple is infriging patents not only on the phone but also on "user interface, camera, antenna and power management technologies" and also "wireless data, speech coding, security and encryption". So, it does not appear to be an isolated case. This is for us all to learn a bit of modesty. No single person or company can claim to be the only source of great innovation; everybody builds upon the existing technologies developed by others.

What get me is the point that they were in discussions, this shows that Apple was aware of the situation.

legally they are bound to doing 2 things.

1-walk away and not use the IP (or whatever)
2-find an alternative solution

Since Apple walked away from the table and still used the IP (or whatever), they are and did know they are breaking the rules. Deciding its costs to much (or they wanted it cheaper) so they can use it anyway without paying isn't there decision to make.

If anyone else had done the same to Apple I am sure they would have done the exact same thing, but the overall outcome will be Apple losing, they made the decision to use something they knew they had to pay for. It doesnt matter on the cost or anything else, they used it without consent.

The interesting thing is when people started defending apple people claim bias and 'fanboyism'

Im a PC fanboy... up until recently i hated everything Apple released, did or tried to do. I disliked it more then anything. Now i share between the two because both sides have merits.

This is turning into a PC vs Mac debate which it's not meant to. Whether Nokia started this before the iPhone release (how many years ago now?) the reality is the iPhone is hugely successful. And despite Nokias market penetration (even here in Australia) Apple sells their phones at a price that equals multiple Nokia phones, so of course Nokia is most definately going to enjoy the idea of attacking Apple. Apple is taking away their market share. Nokia's market is the phone business, and apple has come along and said you are doing this wrong, and so far the market is agreeing.

Of course Nokia is going to look like they are suffering sour grapes. Because even if they do have legal grounds on this, i'm sure they do infact feel jealous of Apples success. Who wouldn't be.

The patent argument will come to whether or not Apple actually used idea which conflict with the patent. And with the current very open and loose patent laws, i have no doubt they will have.

The question also of whether Apples whole product line violates it's patents? If so, then perhaps so do PC Manufacturers. Cause let's face it, a Mac is a PC with Mac OSX on it. So unless they're taking on the operating system, they need to be less broad in their attacks then their patents appear to be and do not just look at Apple. It only makes the perception of jealousy worse.

No, this actually isn't truning into a PC vs Mac debate, evo_spook just got overwhelmed that people were calling him out on a lot of the stuff he believes, and therefore he's crying out that everyone is hating on him in the same way it happens with 'Microsoft'. Pretty pathetic.

hal90001 said,
This is what happens when you CAN'T compete with your product line, you litigate, NOKIA are such desperate losers!


i dont see how they arnt competing when they have the biggest marketshare

Firstly all you saying this is a money grab from nokia think again.
Nokia total Revenue for was 50.72 billion euros so like 60 billion us
Apples 2008 revenue was 32.billion us.

So apple which sells Computers,monitors,software,mice,keyboard , phones makes 32 billion total iphone probably makes up 10-20% of this figure. so lets be generous and say 6billion.

compare this with nokia 99.9% of thier revune is from telecommunication equipment.

Also many of you american posters need to remember USA is only about 300million poulation, there is 5.7 BILLION other people on this planet, so what you see in your neighbourhood represents 5% of the world, Nokia is doing ok in the rest of the world.

Secondly since all nokia does is telcommunication i would be surprised if apple hasnt infringed on a patent, a company with 60billion dollar revenue has a few patents up its sleeves to get that kind of market share cause other companies pay them to use the technology!

I hope apple loses. their products in general although nice looking lack lots of functionality and are way overpriced across the board of all their products.
I remember a while back one of my freinds iphone lacked some mms and email and other office type things anywyas he ended up gettign a proper phone liek the black berry.

Nokia makes great phones. Look, the N97 is a very good phone, but Nokia was caught offguard by the price competition. Too expensive.

Apple IPhone is a great handheld computer at a good reduced price, but it is a very lousy phone. I don't know how many times iPhone dropped calls and hung when u press the numbers, and has the lousy voice quality.

The problem is that touch screen caught on. People suddenly like to use 2 hands to hold a phone to type something. I can't understand it. With a keypad, you can feel the keys and can use 1 hand to type, but this touchscreen **** really amuses me. I hope it's just a fad.

The phone is great if the network doesn't drop calls. Voice quality is good, imo, as well. Maybe not as good as Nokia would do, but around here, Nokia phones are few and far between.

Post of the year I think, so much comments so quick!!!!

I wonder when companies are going to sue Apple for there what, iSlate? or the most successful tablet just because they don't try hard enough?

but anyway, I hope Nokia wins it.

Can't understand why people are picking sides in this. If there were some facts on the table, sure. But there aren't. Just 2 greedy companies fighting a court case that will probably be settled outside for an undisclosed amount, unless Nokia is wrong in which case Apple wins.

Hopefully apple get it stuck to them. Losing battle if you guy up against or violate licensed stuff from Nokia Siemens or the likes of Alcatel and stuff in relation to phone technology. Apple will hopefully realise then they didn't invent the smartphone.

@evo_spook - are you from Apple's PR department? 25% of all comments on this page up to this point are by you, and you seem to go out of your way to defend Apple. I can't see why anyone would care that much.

On topic, this article just states what Nokia claims, it doesn't give Apple's side of the story. I don't see why so many people automatically assume that Apple is at fault.

Maybe you are both happy with the constant bashing by little kiddies who act like windows and apple are football teams


The things is, if this was windows, everyone on here would be defending them and that would be OK, but this isn't because it is Apple?

Its ok to go out of the way to defend Windows but not Apple without being called up on it and slagged off in countless posts by peoples who can be summed up by:


Apple Sucks LOL +1


Give me a break.

evo_spook said,
Maybe you are both happy with the constant bashing by little kiddies who act like windows and apple are football teams


The things is, if this was windows, everyone on here would be defending them and that would be OK, but this isn't because it is Apple?

Its ok to go out of the way to defend Windows but not Apple without being called up on it and slagged off in countless posts by peoples who can be summed up by:


Apple Sucks LOL +1


Give me a break.

And....what exactly are you doing different?

LiquidSolstice said,

And....what exactly are you doing different?


Tell me where I slagged off Windows?


Tell me where I slagged off Nokia?


Most of the people here are not interested in the story, they are here to bash apple (plus anyone who defends them) the story doesn't matter.

evo_spook said,


Tell me where I slagged off Windows?


Tell me where I slagged off Nokia?


Most of the people here are not interested in the story, they are here to bash apple (plus anyone who defends them) the story doesn't matter.

You seem to be incapable of admitting that Apple *might* have possibly done anything remotely wrong, and by so doing, what was the phrase you used? Oh yeah, destroying any "cred" you have.

At least I have the cajones to admit that Microsoft and Nokia are not picture perfect, and can name instances of shady deals or stupidty in both cases.

You're still too immature and hopelessly obsessed with Apple to even imagine that you're oh-so-perfect "Think Different" company is the zenith of ethics and has never done anything wrong, is not doing anything wrong, and will never do anything wrong.

It's really pointless talking to you, you get way too defensive.

Who really cares about this? Does it really matter which company comes off victorious in yet another pointless lawsuit? Can we not all agree on the sentiment that both companies are just as obnoxious and money grabbing as one another?

I think it's just too delicious for some people to pass this up. I mean, the Apple community has spent probably the last twenty years whining that Microsoft stole from Apple, while Windows users mocked them for being sore losers.

It's pretty much what this sounds like now, only Apple is playing the role of Microsoft in the story. The opportunity to enjoy this kind of spite is hard to pass up, you know?

LiquidSolstice said,
Pointless? Really? Perhaps you didn't see the part that said infringing by EVERY SINGLE APPLE PRODUCT.

The point I was trying to make is... WHO CARES? Do you really have nothing better to worry about but some companies interest in making money?

TSO said,
The point I was trying to make is... WHO CARES? Do you really have nothing better to worry about but some companies interest in making money?

It's.....called a news site. If you weren't interested in news, GTFO. It seems to be a trend that each time a news article comes out someone inevitably says something along the lines of "Who cares". Well, smartass, if nobody cared, there wouldn't be 188 comments on it, and it wouldn't be a news article, would it?

Do you have nothing better to do than to try and tell people following news in the tech world what matters and what doesn't?

I dunno, I think Apple has what... $23 billion in reserves? There would be no "owning" involved, just a small chunk of Apple's money paid out and then higher licensing fees.

i4i doesn't own Microsoft, does it?

Simon said,
I dunno, I think Apple has what... $23 billion in reserves? There would be no "owning" involved, just a small chunk of Apple's money paid out and then higher licensing fees.

i4i doesn't own Microsoft, does it?

This is assuming they are suing for money. What if they are want the products removed from the market and will NOT offer any licensing options to Apple?

(Go look up Polaroid - Kodak for an example.)

hotdog963al said,
Yes, if they use that work to create something new and exciting. Nokia clearly did **** all with their patents.

It doesn't matter what they do with their OWN patents. If I make a certain type of cheesecake and I patent it, it's my damn cheesecake and whether or not it takes me 5 minutes or 5 years to go somewhere with it, it's still very much MY cheesecake.

Fail.

Okay, let's summarize this before too many people sound any more ignorant than they already do.

1) Nokia did not wait for the iPhone to become successful before suing. Talks have been taking place in the background for a very long time, and only after having broken down has Nokia decided to take the legal route. Products become 'successful' very quickly. If talks were taking place a month before RTM, and took six months to be reduced to legislation, the iPhone would have had five months to take the market 'by storm', at which point any fanboy could sit on his iDildo and claim Nokia just waited for Apple to have marketshare to care. The fanboy would still be wrong.

2) Apple did not invent multitouch. Apple was not the first company to use multitouch.

They pioneered the hand-held multi-touch boom, there's no denying that. Before the iPhone, you rarely saw anyone in public with touch screen mobile phones, let alone multi-touch. Now a whole heap of handsets have a "grid-like" multi-touch interface. I wonder why? -_-

hotdog963al said,
They pioneered the hand-held multi-touch boom, there's no denying that. Before the iPhone, you rarely saw anyone in public with touch screen mobile phones, let alone multi-touch. Now a whole heap of handsets have a "grid-like" multi-touch interface. I wonder why? -_-

No and No... Statements like this make me realize most of the population is either clueless or semi-retarded.

There are people that were touch phones for YEARS before the iPhone, especially the PocketPC/WinCE/WinMo devices that supported pen and touch since the mid 90s.

You are entitled to your own opinion, you are NOT entitled to your own facts.

hotdog963al said,
They pioneered the hand-held multi-touch boom, there's no denying that. Before the iPhone, you rarely saw anyone in public with touch screen mobile phones, let alone multi-touch. Now a whole heap of handsets have a "grid-like" multi-touch interface. I wonder why? -_-

So what if they helped popularize something. It has no relevance whatsoever.

thenetavenger said,
There are people that were touch phones for YEARS before the iPhone, especially the PocketPC/WinCE/WinMo devices that supported pen and touch since the mid 90s.

Yeah because you saw these everyday, oh wait- no you didn't. They started a boom, only an ignorant anti-Apple (aka "typical neowinian") would disagree.

Kirkburn said,
So what if they helped popularize something. It has no relevance whatsoever.

They forced all the other manufacturers to raise the bar. How is that not relevant?

This is what I hate about patent law, Apple has been in these markets for years now and now, after they've firmly established themselves, Nokia decides to sue. If Nokia's patents are really valid, what took them so long to enforce them?

Tin Man said,
This is what I hate about patent law, Apple has been in these markets for years now and now, after they've firmly established themselves, Nokia decides to sue. If Nokia's patents are really valid, what took them so long to enforce them?

I find it hard to believe Nokia have more computer patents then apple, Apple is one of the forefathers of modern computers

Nokia have been developing tech for a LONG time on a wide spectrum of tech fields. Apple are a focused company. They develop some, license some and package it all up in some damn pretty devices.
It doesnt surprise me that Nokia hold many patents, at a guess Id say ony IBM hold more.

I don't Understand why Everyone is saying Nokia isn't doing well because If I'm not mistaken I remember Reading a article a couple weeks back about Nokia being the on top in the Global Market...they may not be anywhere close in the US but I'm pretty confident that I remember reading that article...So I really don't believe the accusation about them being Desperate is at all plausible. If I find the article again Ill post it here...

this should be fine, if either side wins it means EVERY phone maker is going to sue each other, which wont end well.........

we'll basically have featureless phones for a while! think back to what happened with sony and dualshock 3 for a bit!

No, that was because Sony was retarded and put more research into "Sixaxis" which you'll never hear ANY PS3 owner brag about because it's a waste of time and money, and then they realized people wanted their controllers to vibrate in FPS games and racing games when they were hit or crashed.

Honestly, if anyone bother to read the original story about the lawsuit, there would be less of the 'Patent Troll' remarks. Here is a breakdown of the original claim and clarification of each - Original Patent Claims

Like it or not, these are legit patents and are enforceable. Apple doesn't have the right to other patents.

Have you actually bothered reading that article and what apple is suing for?

Here's some quotes for you:

'the market changed suddenly and [Nokia was] not fast enough changing with it.' (citation)...In response, Nokia chose to copy the iPhone, especially its...patented design and user interface."

I don't see any nokia phone that uses an interface / design similar to the iphone. What next? Apple is going to claim they invented the main menu?

The frequent ellipses in the above quotes are sections containing references to Apple's "innovative," "enormously popular," and "revolutionary" products. This section of the complaint ends up reading something like Apple's incredible, amazing, awesome keynotes.

I'm sorry but that made me laugh.

Apple singles out the 5310, E71, N900 by name, but includes the Series 40, S60 and Symbian platforms, Carbide C++ (because it's developed in an environment that enables the compiler to generate a GUI)

So now a complier that generates a GUI goes against some sort of patent apple holds when they didn't even invent the GUI and just ripped it off xerox?

and any Nokia product that identifies itself through USB.

Apple invented identification through USB? I guess its time for them to start suing every company that makes a product that uses the USB port. Hell even sue Intel and the USB consortium for making the USB port.

I'm not sure what it's talking about about USB identification. Vendor and product IDs are part of the USB specification.

/- Razorfold said,
Have you actually bothered reading that article and what apple is suing for?

Here's some quotes for you:

I don't see any nokia phone that uses an interface / design similar to the iphone. What next? Apple is going to claim they invented the main menu?

I'm sorry but that made me laugh.

So now a complier that generates a GUI goes against some sort of patent apple holds when they didn't even invent the GUI and just ripped it off xerox?

Apple invented identification through USB? I guess its time for them to start suing every company that makes a product that uses the USB port. Hell even sue Intel and the USB consortium for making the USB port.


Stop please! evo_spook is starting to smell like a horse :P

How about you actually read the article and my post before supporting him like he's your best friend or something.

What apple is countersuing for is even more absurd than this.

"Ford Family" and they have a "Out of a Job yet? Keep buying Foreign" stickers hey buddy i happened to work for Ford of canada those stickers are meant to wake up people about a more balanced trade effort with the japanese for every ToyaDA sold in canada we are only allowed to sell a miniscule amount of Fords in that country because their government protects their auto industry from imports and competition.. its all about FAIR trade which they don't apply too but we some how have too..... And as for Apple , i'm a huge apple supporter and yes they make huge mistakes with some of their business tactics but lets get all the info before we turn this into a "apple sucks PC rules debate" which some people have tried to make it.........Happy New Year

That makes this all shadier.
If Apple have effectively admitted that Nokia own a patent by trying to license it then chose not to because it was too exspensive, Appel could be in the poo.

Its not 'fair' that Nokia tried to charge them more, but if they own it, its up to them how much they sell it for.

Mayn1ac said,
That makes this all shadier.
Its not 'fair' that Nokia tried to charge them more, but if they own it, its up to them how much they sell it for.


Actually, I do think there is a law protecting such practices.

evo_spook said,
I've read that apple are paying for the patents but Nokia want them to pay 3 times as much as anyone else

Read where, your secret Apple fanboy forum? You've been protecting Apple everywhere in the comments here like it's some sort of saint.

evo_spook, hes' got a point... youve been defending Apple a fair bit !!

Re the law protecting some practices and pricing. Anti-trust only comes to play in the form everyone is talking about in the US. And it would apply here as there are other manufacturers that it has been released to.
If I invent something and I seel it to 'Bob' for $1 doesnt mean I have to sell it to anyone else for $1. That would risk adding up to price collusion.

evo_spook said,
I've read that apple are paying for the patents but Nokia want them to pay 3 times as much as anyone else

Source? Facts?


You have been saying this all over the comments and havent given any yourself.

It just sounds like the tech is there to be licensed and Apple just didnt bother to buy the license. Licensing of IP happens all over the place and is really common. There isnt a consumer electronics device that doesnt have licensed software or hardware in it.

If Apple didnt bother getting license on appropriate IP they deserve to have their arse handed to them.
If Nokia are pulling a fast one, there should be costs awarded to Apple.
BUT, it could well be a case of patents being granted where they shouldnt, unfortunately with tech the US Patent office does this quite frequently.

You guys that are focusing on the brand, Apple or Nokia, its irrelevant. Your prejudicing your views by brand.

This is a simple Company A sues Company B for alledged IP breach.

As for multi-touch. Apple dont own that IP, they license it.

Mayn1ac said,
It just sounds like the tech is there to be licensed and Apple just didnt bother to buy the license. Licensing of IP happens all over the place and is really common. There isnt a consumer electronics device that doesnt have licensed software or hardware in it.

If Apple didnt bother getting license on appropriate IP they deserve to have their arse handed to them.
If Nokia are pulling a fast one, there should be costs awarded to Apple.
BUT, it could well be a case of patents being granted where they shouldnt, unfortunately with tech the US Patent office does this quite frequently.

You guys that are focusing on the brand, Apple or Nokia, its irrelevant. Your prejudicing your views by brand.

This is a simple Company A sues Company B for alledged IP breach.

As for multi-touch. Apple dont own that IP, they license it.


Wait for the facts

I have heard various things

1. Apple do license the tech but Nokia are demanding 3 times as much as other companys


As for mutli-touch, I take it you missed where they have several patents? They might license some, but they have there own patents on it.

It also seems that Nokia want apple iphone patents.

Mayn1ac said,
Interesting... I stand corrected...
I hope these alleged patents infringements have clearerer ownership than multi-touch

I think Apples just apply to mobile phones, and don't Microsoft and Apple have a patent-non-sue agreement anyway?

evo_spook said,
I think Apples just apply to mobile phones, and don't Microsoft and Apple have a patent-non-sue agreement anyway?

They have to. They both stole GUI from Xerox. If one sued the other, I'd imagine Xerox would come in and sue both.

Bemani Dog said,
They have to. They both stole GUI from Xerox. If one sued the other, I'd imagine Xerox would come in and sue both.


Apple licensed technology from Xerox, no stealing.

Interesting


"In contrast, Nokia made a different business decision and remained focused on traditional mobile wireless handsets with conventional user interfaces. As a result, Nokia has rapidly lost share in the market for high-end mobile phones. Nokia has admitted that as a result of the iPhone launch, 'the market changed suddenly and [Nokia was] not fast enough changing with it.' (citation)...In response, Nokia chose to copy the iPhone, especially its...patented design and user interface."

http://www.betanews.com/article/Apple-coun...ents/1260559533

Probably what it is all about

Nokia's insistence on sticking with Symbian and not using something better like Android doesn't help either, Symbian is starting to become outdated.

Frank Fontaine said,
Nokia's insistence on sticking with Symbian and not using something better like Android doesn't help either, Symbian is starting to become outdated.

Excuse me? They are going to use Maemo FYI.

I hope Nokia wins, this is just like the whole Ford vs Toyota public relations ordeal.

For example, my gf owns a Ford Fusion Hybrid. Even though her family is a "Ford Family" and they have a "Out of a Job yet? Keep buying Foreign" stickers on all their cars, their Fusion does not, because they have to go to Toyota to get their hybrid engine serviced since the technology is on "loan" from Toyota. Yes, Toyota has a patent on hybrid technology, while GM has patent for Flexfuel technology.

May seem out of topic, but it relates. The most likely scenario here is that Apple will get a "loan" on Nokia technology.

Titoist said,
I hope Nokia wins, this is just like the whole Ford vs Toyota public relations ordeal..

I'd like to hear the facts before declaring a winner

Your GF's family are pretty ignorant then. Many "foreign" cars are made right here in the US, while many "American" cars are made in other countries. There is a Nissan plant that builds their trucks, SUVs and I think the Altima just north of me in Canton, MS and a couple of my wife's relatives work there.

There are very few American cars that are totally made in the US, and there are a lot of foreign cars that are made here.

Nokia is full of ****.
Just a case of company losing profits and starts suing companies for "patent infringement" to get in extra money.

Glendi said,
So when Apple does this, it's right, huh?

And visa versa, when its Microsoft doing it, the other company is a patent troll, huh?

We ought to call out patent trolls. To me they are companies the patent something and then do nothing with the patent. Im not saying thats the case in any of the examples on this forum, but those are the companies that stiffle development.
The courts ought to ask "so what exactly have you done with your patent in the last 5 years" and if the answer is 'Nothing' they ought to be paid a flat fee and it become open and unpatentable in the future.

Mayn1ac said,
We ought to call out patent trolls. To me they are companies the patent something and then do nothing with the patent. Im not saying thats the case in any of the examples on this forum, but those are the companies that stiffle development.
The courts ought to ask "so what exactly have you done with your patent in the last 5 years" and if the answer is 'Nothing' they ought to be paid a flat fee and it become open and unpatentable in the future.

+1.

Xilo said,
Nokia is full of ****.
Just a case of company losing profits and starts suing companies for "patent infringement" to get in extra money.

Finally someone who get it. It took long enough to find a comment with some actual intelligence rather than Apple bashing inside, because, well, "Apple sucks and I'm a PCQ!11!".

It's a well-known fact Nokia has been doing pretty damn horrible lately, and it's no coincidence this lawsuit comes at this exact moment. What's worse is that they'll send signals of panic to their shareholders now as well. Exactly what they needed. Not.

The only upside to this annoying ignorance is that we'll at least get the final laugh here. :-p

A patent troll is someone who files a patent based on nothing but a vague idea, then sits on it until a few years after people start using it. Nokia don't meet this definition. They've invested billions of Euro's developing their cellphone technologies, and they sure as hell haven't just sat on the patents either, as they are THE leading cellphone maker in the world.

So, you fail on both your points there, sorry. :p

If the shoe was on the other foot and Nokia had stellar sales and was making tons of profits, I seriously doubt they'd willingly go to Apple and give them plenty of money for the patents they are using. They'd most likely tell them to **** off. When I find myself unusually short on money, I start to calculate the amounts I've loaned out to friends/family. It's not surprising that when they can't keep up and are losing more and more money/market share they suddenly want to cash in on some lawsuits. I'm sure if there were any other equally successfully competitor they'd be suing them too. Apple has a LOT of money, they are an easy target for lawsuits.

If they weren't doing so poorly I wouldn't think the same way. It's because they are doing much worse compared to everyone else that makes this seem like a desperate attempt to recover lost revenue.

@ FloatingFatMan, they may have the largest market share, but its been plunging quicker than a fat kid in a pool all year long.

evo_spook said,
And visa versa, when its Microsoft doing it, the other company is a patent troll, huh?

That probably has happened in your dreams.

Jugalator said,

Finally someone who get it. It took long enough to find a comment with some actual intelligence rather than Apple bashing inside, because, well, "Apple sucks and I'm a PCQ!11!".

It's a well-known fact Nokia has been doing pretty damn horrible lately, and it's no coincidence this lawsuit comes at this exact moment. What's worse is that they'll send signals of panic to their shareholders now as well. Exactly what they needed. Not.

The only upside to this annoying ignorance is that we'll at least get the final laugh here. :-p

Go read up on the entire lawsuit first. Nokia and apple have been in discussion over the patents since before the iphone launched. Those discussions lead nowhere, so naturally the next step is to sue them?

Or do you expect nokia to keep going over to apple and talking with them?

What is so wrong with this lawsuit? When every other phone manfacturer have paid the money for the patents, apple hasn't. And now suddenly Nokia is the bad guy? If Microsoft did this, the very same people defending apple here will be jumping down microsoft's throat.

/- Razorfold said,

Go read up on the entire lawsuit first. Nokia and apple have been in discussion over the patents since before the iphone launched. Those discussions lead nowhere, so naturally the next step is to sue them?

Or do you expect nokia to keep going over to apple and talking with them?


Or to quote some one above

"Nokia had not offered fair licensing terms, demanding reciprocal access to iPhone-related patents not relevant to industry standards."

Naturally its Apple's fault for not giving them everything they want under the sun.

Actually considering most of what is being said is based on rumors how do you know thats a fact?

Also, if you make a product / own a patent I think that gives you the right to charge whatever the hell you want for it? If apple wasn't willing to pay the price Nokia was asking for, then don't use their products?

Qualcomm, Ericsson, Nokia and 1 other company (forgot the name, could be Motorola) all hold patents for GSM/UMTS technology. If you want to make a phone that uses GSM or UMTS techology, you have to license it from one of those companies (they all share the patents between them to make things easier for manufacturers). If Apple didn't like the terms of the Nokia version, don't use it and go license it from Qualcomm or one of the other companies.

Every other phone manufacturer has managed to do this, why can't Apple? Also I'm sure access to iphone related patents weren't in the original agreement, it's just when things come down to lawsuit companies/people start asking for everything under the sun just to see how much they can get.

/- Razorfold said,
Actually considering most of what is being said is based on rumors how do you know thats a fact?

Also, if you make a product / own a patent I think that gives you the right to charge whatever the hell you want for it? If apple wasn't willing to pay the price Nokia was asking for, then don't use their products?

Qualcomm, Ericsson, Nokia and 1 other company (forgot the name, could be Motorola) all hold patents for GSM/UMTS technology. If you want to make a phone that uses GSM or UMTS techology, you have to license it from one of those companies (they all share the patents between them to make things easier for manufacturers). If Apple didn't like the terms of the Nokia version, don't use it and go license it from Qualcomm or one of the other companies.

Every other phone manufacturer has managed to do this, why can't Apple? Also I'm sure access to iphone related patents weren't in the original agreement, it's just when things come down to lawsuit companies/people start asking for everything under the sun just to see how much they can get.

As you said, how do you know whats fact, you don't


And actually there is a law I believe about charge one company one charge for a patent and another a much higher price, so it would be invalid of Nokia to do so, and by doing so they could potentially lose rights to that patent I once read.

Here let me quote from my own post for you:

Qualcomm, Ericsson, Nokia and 1 other company (forgot the name, could be Motorola) all hold patents for GSM/UMTS technology. If you want to make a phone that uses GSM or UMTS techology, you have to license it from one of those companies (they all share the patents between them to make things easier for manufacturers). If Apple didn't like the terms of the Nokia version, don't use it and go license it from Qualcomm or one of the other companies.

/- Razorfold said,
Here let me quote from my own post for you:


And this applys to this story how exactly? It doesn't say anything about it, again, you don't know any full facts anymore then anyone else. Come back when you do.

evo_spook said,
And this applys to this story how exactly? It doesn't say anything about it, again, you don't know any full facts anymore then anyone else. Come back when you do.

Actually what I said came from BBC news and newsweek.

So let me rephrase it for you. Apple used Nokia patents that they weren't willing to pay for because nokia was asking for too much.

Now rather than go ahead and continue using it (which would eventually lead to a lawsuit), why not go license it from another company? I mean maybe all of the companies were asking for the same price, and then Apple is screwed..but I doubt that was the case.

/- Razorfold said,
Actually what I said came from BBC news and newsweek.

So let me rephrase it for you. Apple used Nokia patents that they weren't willing to pay for because nokia was asking for too much..


I read when this broke that to charge a lot more for patents for one company then for others is against certain rules.

evo_spook said,


I read when this broke that to charge a lot more for patents for one company then for others is against certain rules.

Except we don't know if that was the case though. That bit of information is still missing. For all we know, Nokia was charging the exact same as it did for other manufacturers, and Apple just thought that was too much for them to pay

Regardless though, Apple should have done the right thing and gone to another vendor and none of this would have happenned.

/- Razorfold said,

Except we don't know if that was the case though. That bit of information is still missing. For all we know, Nokia was charging the exact same as it did for other manufacturers, and Apple just thought that was too much for them to pay

Regardless though, Apple should have done the right thing and gone to another vendor and none of this would have happenned.

In your haste to bash Apple you keep contridicting yourself, one minute you're saying we don't know if this happened then next, Apple should have done this and none of this would have happened, seeing how we don't know what apple did or did not do, or what Nokia did or did not do, then I don't see how you can come out and say Apple should have done the right thing.

Ok because you apparently cannot understand english or read let me put it in the simplest way possible for you.

1. Maybe Nokia was charging too much. If that was the case, Apple should have gone with another vendor.

2. Maybe Nokia had unreasonable licensing terms. If that was the case, Apple should have gone with another vendor.

3. Maybe nokia wasn't overcharging and Apple just didn't want to pay that much. If that was the case, Apple should have gone with another vendor.

I was saying we don't know the terms of the potential licensing agreement between Nokia and Apple. But REGARDLESS of what Nokia was asking for or what was in that agreement, if Apple didn't like it, they should have licensed it from another vendor.

HTC licenses it from Qualcomm. Samsung, I believe from Nokia. Sony Ericcson, well from Ericcson of course. Nobody is forcing you to license the patents from Nokia.

What they did was. Oh we don't like the Nokia agreement, but we'll keep using their products till they sue us and then we'll counter sue and claim it was unreasonable.

Razorfold, for someone who keeps saying, "have you read...", it doesn't seem like you've done much reading.

First, this is a new ITC patent dispute. All stories at the moment are based almost solely on Nokia's press release so details are thin, but they seem to imply that every Apple product in production infringes on 7 new patents not subject to the previous dispute. Any reference to that matter in regards to this case are completely useless.

Second, your claim that Apple could go to another vendor is nonsensical. In the case you are referring to, Nokia's argument is they are core patents to international standards like wifi and 3G. There are no other vendors. A patent covers ideas and concepts -- there cannot be another vendor who isn't likewise infringing the patent. Moreover, Apple has, in part, argued exactly that: they have purchased components from suppliers with licenses to the Nokia patents.

Thirdly, you claim Apple claims are one side of the story and aren't necessarily to be believed but seem to eat up everything Nokia is shoveling: while Nokia is the largest patent holder in these international standards, they aren't the only ones -- why aren't Siemens, Phillips, Qualcomm, and a hundred others suing Apple? Could it be that, of course, Apple respects thousands of patent holders and pays them fairly when they aren't being extorted?

Fourthly, the initial suit was brought in U.S. Court over core international standards patents. The ITC, which essentially acts as an arbitrator and can act more quickly and can impose international import bans, was not brought in on this case, where Apple alleges that Nokia was asking for unfair rates. Why not? If these are clearly essential patents that everyone else respects, why wouldn't that case be brought to the ITC rather than this wholly new and distinct case of 7 patents which allegedly affect every Apple product in production?

While Apple is always aggressive in its legal filings, its argument seems fairly clear: they will pay the same rates for essential standards patents as everyone else.

Nokia's initial claim of only wanting FRAND rates for essential patents seemed reasonable -- then Apple's reply seemed to make it very clear that that was probably ********* (Apple is bold but not bold enough to lie about not only being handed higher rates than others but for the rates to continue to go up throughout the negotiations without a fairly reasonable proof of such an allegation). This newest case that EVERY Apple product in production infringes on Nokia patents seem fairly weak -- even if accurate because of the timing and the lack of transparency.

/- Razorfold said,
Ok because you apparently cannot understand english or read let me put it in the simplest way possible for you.

1. Maybe Nokia was charging too much. If that was the case, Apple should have gone with another vendor.

2. Maybe Nokia had unreasonable licensing terms. If that was the case, Apple should have gone with another vendor.

3. Maybe nokia wasn't overcharging and Apple just didn't want to pay that much. If that was the case, Apple should have gone with another vendor.

I was saying we don't know the terms of the potential licensing agreement between Nokia and Apple. But REGARDLESS of what Nokia was asking for or what was in that agreement, if Apple didn't like it, they should have licensed it from another vendor.

HTC licenses it from Qualcomm. Samsung, I believe from Nokia. Sony Ericcson, well from Ericcson of course. Nobody is forcing you to license the patents from Nokia.

What they did was. Oh we don't like the Nokia agreement, but we'll keep using their products till they sue us and then we'll counter sue and claim it was unreasonable.

But again you are making presumptions, as yet again nobody knows the full details.

Thanks for playing.

WOW.....you smell that? Smells like someone just ****ted all over you :P

nokiaxion said,
WOW.....you smell that? Smells like someone just ****ted all over you :P

Considering that in every single Apple teardown (of which, there has been multiple for EVERY single product they have made in the last decade) there has never been a single Nokia component identified in a single Apple product and that Siemens, Ericcson, Qualcomm, et al. are not suing Apple and since his claims that others do not license the patents from Nokia are factually wrong and disputed by Nokia -- No, I don't smell that.

I do see someone who doesn't know what he's talking about getting bluster-y by numbering a bunch of repetitive, nonsensical sentences.

First, this is a new ITC patent dispute. All stories at the moment are based almost solely on Nokia's press release so details are thin, but they seem to imply that every Apple product in production infringes on 7 new patents not subject to the previous dispute. Any reference to that matter in regards to this case are completely useless.

My post was in reference to the ORIGINAL lawsuit against apple, not this one. Because this one is absurd to say the least.

Second, your claim that Apple could go to another vendor is nonsensical. In the case you are referring to, Nokia's argument is they are core patents to international standards like wifi and 3G. There are no other vendors. A patent covers ideas and concepts -- there cannot be another vendor who isn't likewise infringing the patent. Moreover, Apple has, in part, argued exactly that: they have purchased components from suppliers with licenses to the Nokia patents.

Maybe you need to do some readings. The UMTS/GSM specifications and patents are all shared/licensed between Qualcomm/Nokia/Ericcson and i think Motorola.

They all LICENSE it from each other, and as a result anyone can license it from either of those vendors. Nokia is NOT the only one. So if nokia was charging retardedly excessive amounts, Apple can just as easily license the technology from Qualcomm and they would be fine.

---

I'm not trying to say what nokia did was right. Yeh they "might" have been asking for absurd licensing fees. But that doesn't mean Apple is in the right. They had other options to get out of this mess. They chose to stick with it.

/- Razorfold said,
Maybe you need to do some readings. The UMTS/GSM specifications and patents are all shared/licensed between Qualcomm/Nokia/Ericcson and i think Motorola.

They all LICENSE it from each other, and as a result anyone can license it from either of those vendors. Nokia is NOT the only one. So if nokia was charging retardedly excessive amounts, Apple can just as easily license the technology from Qualcomm and they would be fine.

This is 100% factually wrong. There are many patent holders with the big 5 representing the bulk of them. All of these patents and their patent holders are a part of a pact to use the patents the same and fairly for others because they are required standards. But your fantasy that if Apple didn't like Nokia's price (or their looks), they could have gone to Ericcson for a better deal is silly. You cannot pick and choose who you pay a license to and licensees cannot pick and choose what rate they then license it out at unless granted that right by the original patent holder. Each patent holder is not a licensing body who then distributes individual royalty payments to each other patent holder based on their fair share. Hell, there isn't even an independent consortium that acts as a pool for all the patents and does all the collection and then distributes the shares of licensing fees to individual patent holders like with mpeg-la or other patent pooling consortiums.

Each patent holder is responsible for collecting and issuing licenses for their own patents alone. That is it (well, unless otherwise granted which there is no such agreement in this case as you describe).

Note that nowhere in Nokia's statements do they mention that Apple isn't paying other standards patent holders either nor do they say "essential Nokia patents... that any of a hundred or so patent contributors to 3G and 802.11 could otherwise license."

Sigh...let me explain this another way.

The 3g patents and stuff are related, for the most part, to the radio and chipset onboard the phone.

Now when you buy a qualcomm radio / chipset, qualcomm already has licensing agreements with Nokia (and the other patent holders) for the production of chipsets using their technology. Hence you don't have to pay any royalities to nokia. Qualcomm does, and you just pay qualcomm. (Like HTC does with pretty much all their phones)

In this case however, apple did something (or didn't do something) that infringed on one of the patents that Nokia own. Nokia gave them the licensing terms, they didn't like it but they went along and continued production.

What apple could have done, is gone to qualcomm and licensed the chipset/radio from them. Then qualcomm deals with nokia, and apple doesn't infringe on any patents.

There was an entire BBC article on this back in october when it happenned. Maybe that would make more sense to you.

evo_spook said,
But again you are making presumptions, as yet again nobody knows the full details.

Thanks for playing.

Nobody knows the full details? You certainly don't seem to fall under that category, seeing as you're pulling facts from thin air.

Xero said,
@ FloatingFatMan, they may have the largest market share, but its been plunging quicker than a fat kid in a pool all year long.

So I make an amazing brand of lemonade, someone steals it and markets it better, and because of that, I'm not selling much lemonade, I don't get to sue for said person stealing my recipe?

Fail.

/- Razorfold said,
There was an entire BBC article on this back in october when it happenned. Maybe that would make more sense to you.

If it was factually correct, and you DVRed it, and uploaded it to YouTube, and I could follow a link to it, then maybe. But right now you are talking out of your behind. Saying: someone else said something and I watched it, that proves my point -- is silly. Your theory that Apple is the only company in the world buying unlicensed components and that somehow the 100s of other patent holders don't care or are being paid, but for Nokia... nonsense.

First of all, it was on their website, but that's besides the point.

Now read my post again and did where I said apple is using unlicensed stuff without paying for it. I said they COULD be using something they havent paid for from Nokia, SPECIFICALLY not from everyone. I'm just saying they could have gone about this differently. for example lets believe that nokia was charging them more than others why wait two years to make big deal about it and only after nokia sues them?

you just seem incapable of admitting apple MAY have done something wrong

I'm not a Microsoft Fanboy... but I'll tell you I despise Apple in every which way possible (except for OSX).
I hope Nokia wins the battle and courts make apple pay them from here to tim buck two.

Just so you know. Blackberry and Nokia have several technology lisence agreements. I work for RIM.

This is VERY nice..... the company that says that Microsoft has stolen thier tecnologies (which it is a proven lie) is being sued for having stealing important patnents.........

tsitouridis said,
This is VERY nice..... the company that says that Microsoft has stolen thier tecnologies (which it is a proven lie) is being sued for having stealing important patnents.........


Really where is it a proven lie?

evo_spook said,
Really where is it a proven lie?

The comparisons drawn on how similar Vista was to OSX. Then we've got the "I'm a PC" ads which are complete utter rubbish. Hope Nokia wins, the iPhone is overrated crap.

Billus said,
The comparisons drawn on how similar Vista was to OSX. Then we've got the "I'm a PC" ads which are complete utter rubbish. Hope Nokia wins, the iPhone is overrated crap.


the iPhone is far from crap, its probably the most polished phone out there, say you don't like it, fair enough, but to call it crap just destroys any cred you have.

Billus said,
The comparisons drawn on how similar Vista was to OSX. Then we've got the "I'm a PC" ads which are complete utter rubbish. Hope Nokia wins, the iPhone is overrated crap.

A lot of Macs got similar things Windows has had before. None of them is stealing technologies, so it is irrelevant to this.

evo_spook said,
the iPhone is far from crap, its probably the most polished phone out there, say you don't like it, fair enough, but to call it crap just destroys any cred you have.

Polished when jailbroken, yes.

evo_spook said,
the iPhone is far from crap, its probably the most polished phone out there, say you don't like it, fair enough, but to call it crap just destroys any cred you have.

No, to call it crap somehow seems to mortally offend you, which is to be expected, seeing as you're probably on Apple's Payroll.

evo_spook said,
Really where is it a proven lie?

As it is known, the window-like UI was not created by Apple. It begin back to the Unix era..... It was created in a lab as an experiment. Jobs saw it and asked his develpoers to create something similar (as he has admitted himself). This is way the are is also no patent about the window-like GUI, and this is the reason why, Apple was never able to win over microsoft, almost 20 years ago, simply enough cause it was not something created by them. When we are talking about OS looking like an other what do you generally mean? That they do both have glass-like surfaces? This is a means of comparison to say that something is stolen or not? If that is the case, then where did linux steal it UI from? Apple or Microsoft?

Generally speaking there is no UI claims and there will never be, unless there are some actaull tecnologies - code stolen.

I agree. It is pretty hard to tell who is in the right and who is in the wrong with such vagueness. Its pretty funny how opinionated people are with very little information.

Shadrack said,
I agree. It is pretty hard to tell who is in the right and who is in the wrong with such vagueness. Its pretty funny how opinionated people are with very little information.

Indeed. Who really knows... I'd be VERY curious.

seriously if all Apple devices have violated their patents why did they wait this long. Once again people it's company vs. company "frivilous" lawsuits that clog our justice systems, not individual vs company cases as politicians would have you believe. You better believe tort reform will have no effect on companies suing each other.

Probably because of this comment by Apple:

"“Other companies must compete with us by inventing their own technologies, not just by stealing ours,” said Bruce Sewell, Apple’s General Counsel and senior vice president."

Someone needs to tell their lawyers that while the Reality Distortion Field works on consumers, it doesn't work on a company as big as Nokia. Who will just prove you an idiot and fight back.

Fillado said,
Probably because of this comment by Apple:

"“Other companies must compete with us by inventing their own technologies, not just by stealing ours,” said Bruce Sewell, Apple’s General Counsel and senior vice president."

Someone needs to tell their lawyers that while the Reality Distortion Field works on consumers, it doesn't work on a company as big as Nokia. Who will just prove you an idiot and fight back.

+1

also they will wait a while for the device / software etc to gain a lot of sales, as they can then claim compensation for every unit sold with the patented technology inside.

At the end of the day, its a company, so its all about the money....

Fillado said,
Probably because of this comment by Apple:

"“Other companies must compete with us by inventing their own technologies, not just by stealing ours,” said Bruce Sewell, Apple’s General Counsel and senior vice president."

Someone needs to tell their lawyers that while the Reality Distortion Field works on consumers, it doesn't work on a company as big as Nokia. Who will just prove you an idiot and fight back.


LOL, yeah, go on and tell yourself that. Nokia will lose this and spiral into a crisis. This is just one step on the path they were already on *before* suing Apple.

Jugalator said,

LOL, yeah, go on and tell yourself that. Nokia will lose this and spiral into a crisis. This is just one step on the path they were already on *before* suing Apple.

You know something that we don't?
Is Apple is loading cash into their RDF emitter and focusing it on the judge (like they probably did when they were sued for using the "Apple" trademark in music industry)? Or maybe they bet on the crowd of angry "think different...think different...think different..." people to take over the court?

RealFduch said,

You know something that we don't?
Is Apple is loading cash into their RDF emitter and focusing it on the judge (like they probably did when they were sued for using the "Apple" trademark in music industry)? Or maybe they bet on the crowd of angry "think different...think different...think different..." people to take over the court?


Quality response, given that by all accounts Nokia were having discussions with Apple before suing, and that Nokia still make some of the most widely used tech in the industry and there own phones that are still doing quite well, I would have thought Nokia were doing OK, and this is just a case of Apple receiving some Karma.

macrosslover said,
seriously if all Apple devices have violated their patents why did they wait this long.
Previous articles on this have stated that Nokia was in talks over the patents but the dealings fell apart over time. They didn't just decide three years later to sue.

Also this is hardly new news...pretty sure a similar story was run around six months ago and shortly after Apple counter sued/made similar allegations.

Fillado said,
Probably because of this comment by Apple:

"“Other companies must compete with us by inventing their own technologies, not just by stealing ours,” said Bruce Sewell, Apple’s General Counsel and senior vice president."

Someone needs to tell their lawyers that while the Reality Distortion Field works on consumers, it doesn't work on a company as big as Nokia. Who will just prove you an idiot and fight back.

Oh good grief... The arrogance in the way they even word things... lol

Smigit said,
Previous articles on this have stated that Nokia was in talks over the patents but the dealings fell apart over time. They didn't just decide three years later to sue.

Yeah, it always surprises me that people think nothing was being done just because they didn't hear about it...

not once in my blackberry did i see a copyright from nokia. Doesn't that mean they should sue RIM too? How about my old LG VX6000? I don't see a copyright from nokia in there either. Not even a thanks.

darkmanx21 said,
Didn't Apple, just recently, counter sue Nokia? Also, besides endless litigation - what is going to come out of this?

The lawsuit was gibberish. It claimed they were targeting every Nokia device that identified itself over USB, which is part of the USB specification.

Bemani Dog said,
The lawsuit was gibberish. It claimed they were targeting every Nokia device that identified itself over USB, which is part of the USB specification.

Oh jeez... LOL

You do realise that Nokia developed the first mobile phones not Apple. I hope Nokia win this because it will show Apple that they can't steal ideas from other companies and get away with it.

And yes I know that other companies do the same thing.

neo158 said,
You do realise that Nokia developed the first mobile phones not Apple. I hope Nokia win this because it will show Apple that they can't steal ideas from other companies and get away with it.

And yes I know that other companies do the same thing.

If you know other companies are involved in it, probs Nokia aswell then why make the statement about Apple?

neo158 said,
You do realise that Nokia developed the first mobile phones not Apple. I hope Nokia win this because it will show Apple that they can't steal ideas from other companies and get away with it.

And yes I know that other companies do the same thing.

But here's the thing, if Nokia made the first mobile phones, then why are they just suing Apple. And if they are making mobile phones, then why are they suing over all of Apple's products, for example laptops or desktops?

They're only suing them now, because they've been in negotiations with Apple since before they launched the iPhone, and they're just refusing to pay up. The first step in cases like this is always negotiation first, litigation second.

As for the other devices, I don't think they've said what the problem is with those, unlike their case with the iPhone; so it's really difficult to tell what their beef is with those.

FloatingFatMan said,
They're only suing them now, because they've been in negotiations with Apple since before they launched the iPhone, and they're just refusing to pay up. The first step in cases like this is always negotiation first, litigation second.

As for the other devices, I don't think they've said what the problem is with those, unlike their case with the iPhone; so it's really difficult to tell what their beef is with those.


Well, I've read many things, don't know what is true, eg: apple bought patents but nokia want 3 times as much from apple

or Nokia want some patents apple has so that they can build a iphone like phone

"Nokia had not offered fair licensing terms, demanding reciprocal access to iPhone-related patents not relevant to industry standards."

Naturally its Apple's fault for not giving them everything they want under the sun.

Its funny, when Apple play everyone else for chumps, nobody blinks an eyelid, but when somebody else tries to make Apple play by their terms, suddenly they are the worst company in the world. Some of you iFans just have no sense of balance or reasoning.

Frank Fontaine said,
Its funny, when Apple play everyone else for chumps, nobody blinks an eyelid, but when somebody else tries to make Apple play by their terms, suddenly they are the worst company in the world. Some of you iFans just have no sense of balance or reasoning.

That works the other way round aswell, moreso on this forum.

Maybe so, but the fact that others do it doesn't make you any less wrong than they are when they do it. Fact is, it's Nokia's I.P and they have the right to license it under any terms, they could just screw Apple over completely and refuse to license it at all. In simple terms, Apple, for once are in a position that they have put many other people and companies, and people just can't hack the fact that a little Karma has caught them.

neo158 said,
You do realise that Nokia developed the first mobile phones not Apple. I hope Nokia win this because it will show Apple that they can't steal ideas from other companies and get away with it.

And yes I know that other companies do the same thing.

Actually I believe Motorolla made the first mobile phone...

Xero said,
"Nokia had not offered fair licensing terms, demanding reciprocal access to iPhone-related patents not relevant to industry standards."

Naturally its Apple's fault for not giving them everything they want under the sun.

If that's the case it changes everything... Hopefully more will be made clear about this soon. It's very intriguing...

So, this is something that most all other phone manufacturers acknowledge and pay for? I'd be interested in knowing what exactly these technologies are. Is this just some money grab over an "idea" they "own" or legit tech they (nokia) funded and developed, which apple is stealing?

thornz0 said,
So, this is something that most all other phone manufacturers acknowledge and pay for? I'd be interested in knowing what exactly these technologies are. Is this just some money grab over an "idea" they "own" or legit tech they (nokia) funded and developed, which apple is stealing?

I don't think its to do with stealing, I think someone mentioned a possible reasons are
a) Apple already got a license from someone else
B) They are asking a lot more from Apple then from other companys
or
Nokia want something, multi touch?


Until both release some type of statement defining it all, we are in the dark.

It just sounds like the tech is there to be licensed and Apple just didnt bother to buy the license. Licensing of IP happens all over the place and is really common. There isnt a consumer electronics device that doesnt have licensed software or hardware in it.

As for multi-touch. Apple dont own that, they license it.

Mayn1ac said,
It just sounds like the tech is there to be licensed and Apple just didnt bother to buy the license. Licensing of IP happens all over the place and is really common. There isnt a consumer electronics device that doesnt have licensed software or hardware in it.

As for multi-touch. Apple dont own that, they license it.

Or as I said, they already licensed it from someone else.

As for multi-touch, have you got links to say they just license it as they have multiple patents on it.

Ill try and dig 'em out. I know that it was licensed to MS (of all people) for tablet tech in the early 00's but they dropped the ball as they didnt see the potential.
Ill get back to you.

thornz0 said,
So, this is something that most all other phone manufacturers acknowledge and pay for? I'd be interested in knowing what exactly these technologies are. Is this just some money grab over an "idea" they "own" or legit tech they (nokia) funded and developed, which apple is stealing?

I think it's mostly because Nokia isn't doing very well lately.

evo_spook said,
As for multi-touch, have you got links to say they just license it as they have multiple patents on it.

Multiple patents on something invented 20-30 years ago? That's Apple for you!

RealFduch said,
Multiple patents on something invented 20-30 years ago? That's Apple for you!


really multitouch invented 20-30 years ago, I think you are bull****ting, besides they have done it

What group of dim-wits would allow patents on stuff where there is clear prior art ?.. Oops the US Patent Office.. (AGAIN !)

Mayn1ac said,
It just sounds like the tech is there to be licensed and Apple just didnt bother to buy the license.


The didn't like the terms so they willfully infringed

RealFduch said,
Multiple patents on something invented 20-30 years ago? That's Apple for you!

Yep, and let's all pretend other companies like Microsoft and Nokia aren't exactly the same way. On Neowin that's just so much cooler!

Mayn1ac said,
What group of dim-wits would allow patents on stuff where there is clear prior art ?.. Oops the US Patent Office.. (AGAIN !)

Insane isn't it? And not an isolated case either... *sigh*

.Neo said,
Yep, and let's all pretend other companies like Microsoft and Nokia aren't exactly the same way. On Neowin that's just so much cooler!

Well, when there's prior art they aren't supposed to issue patents...

veternan said,
(snipped)

Thats what it boils down to, It would be nice if people could just discuss it as a topic rather then football teams.

pielor said,
so?

Imagine someone explained a new finding in the "E=MC2" but gave no credit at all to the original man to found it and just called "E=MC2" (and his own finding) his own.

How would the "founding father" even though he is dead feel?

ekw said,
I hope nokia wins, they are like one of the founding fathers of telecommunications.

I hope nokia wins too. I'm PC.

nokiaxion said,
Imagine someone explained a new finding in the "E=MC2" but gave no credit at all to the original man to found it and just called "E=MC2" (and his own finding) his own.

How would the "founding father" even though he is dead feel?

it's E=mc^2

I hope nokia wins too.... I'm a PC.

So Apple steals Ideas too. I was wondering how they got innovative ideas form. From Nokia

nokiaxion said,
Imagine someone explained a new finding in the "E=MC2" but gave no credit at all to the original man to found it and just called "E=MC2" (and his own finding) his own.

How would the "founding father" even though he is dead feel?

It's unrelated, but almost every equation out there has been derived from somebody elses' work without due credit. So that's a pretty bad analogy, fyi.

I'm a PC.

I didn't know that PCs could enter responses to comment sections all by themselves without a user. OH NO! ITS THE BEGINNINGS OF SKYNET. RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!!

I refuse to make a judgement one way or the other before knowing the whole story. I want to know how Apple's computers infringe on patents that Nokia has, when Nokia is a mobile phone manufacturer.

Nokia won't win much at all, silly "PC's". :-p

They're doing this because this company is NOT doing well lately. :-/

They're desperate. It's not because they have a solid case, it's because they have to do something.

Jugalator said,
Nokia won't win much at all, silly "PC's". :-p

They're doing this because this company is NOT doing well lately. :-/

They're desperate. It's not because they have a solid case, it's because they have to do something.

Exactly. Now that they are unable to come out with a competitive product for the iPhone, all of a sudden this lawsuit appears out of nowhere. Guess they were saving litigation for a rainy day.

Mythmaker said,

Exactly. Now that they are unable to come out with a competitive product for the iPhone, all of a sudden this lawsuit appears out of nowhere. Guess they were saving litigation for a rainy day.

Nokia, desperate?

They control over 50% of the worlds mobile market. They have phones like the n900, n97 etc to compete with the iphone.

The amount of iphone users is nothing compared to the number of nokia users.

veternan said,
(snipped)

I'm also a PC, so?

I dont understand why Nokia should win as they are the "fathers of telecommunications" wow big deal, GM are the fathers of motors and they went bankrupt just because of bad management, so what! this is life!

pielor said,

I'm also a PC, so?

I dont understand why Nokia should win as they are the "fathers of telecommunications" wow big deal, GM are the fathers of motors and they went bankrupt just because of bad management, so what! this is life!

father of telecommunications should really got to the guy who invented the phone.. or Motorola lol

Jugalator said,
Nokia won't win much at all, silly "PC's". :-p

They're doing this because this company is NOT doing well lately. :-/

They're desperate. It's not because they have a solid case, it's because they have to do something.


Is Nokia desperate???Nokia has more than half the market share. even if they are desperate SO WHAT??? we want Nokia to win because I'm a PC

Well Nokia has over half the market share but they are failing to penetrate the states and I believe that market share has started to decline in recent times.

I don't think they are desperate but they do need to reinvent somewhat. They make great hardware but Symbian has long since begun to feel aged. I think they also need to determine where they want to go...I don't see a future for them where both Symbian and Maemo are both in use. They should either continue Symbian exclusively or drop it for Maemo sooner rather than later before they spread themselves too lightly, **** off app developers and confuse consumers by supporting multiple OS's.

still1 said,
Is Nokia desperate???Nokia has more than half the market share. even if they are desperate SO WHAT??? we want Nokia to win because I'm a PC

Umm, so what if you are a PC? All the iPhone owners I know use PC's and not Macs.

Escalade_GT said,

It's unrelated, but almost every equation out there has been derived from somebody elses' work without due credit. So that's a pretty bad analogy, fyi. ;)


fyi, it was used as a example. If you are religious (for example), then Einstein would have needed to given credit to god for creating © light and giving it speed....

Atmos42 said,
Umm, so what if you are a PC? All the iPhone owners I know use PC's and not Macs.

Who cares!! Nokia should win

open_coder said,
I didn't know that PCs could enter responses to comment sections all by themselves without a user. OH NO! ITS THE BEGINNINGS OF SKYNET. RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!!

Now you know

- this PC is clearly running Windows 7


Mythmaker said,

Exactly. Now that they are unable to come out with a competitive product for the iPhone, all of a sudden this lawsuit appears out of nowhere. Guess they were saving litigation for a rainy day.

Or, as it sounds, they were trying to work out a licensing agreement with Apple, as they have with everyone else, and that fell apart. Or Apple refused to license the technology. Who knows. Just because they're filing now doesn't mean they were just waiting...

Smigit said,
Well Nokia has over half the market share but they are failing to penetrate the states and I believe that market share has started to decline in recent times.

I don't think they are desperate but they do need to reinvent somewhat. They make great hardware but Symbian has long since begun to feel aged. I think they also need to determine where they want to go...I don't see a future for them where both Symbian and Maemo are both in use. They should either continue Symbian exclusively or drop it for Maemo sooner rather than later before they spread themselves too lightly, **** off app developers and confuse consumers by supporting multiple OS's.

I agree. Maemo is a confusing thing in and of itself... It would be one thing if they were very different, but they don't appear to be... I haven't actually used Maemo though, so I may very well be missing something.

hotdog963al said,
You have got to be joking.
Yeah man, I hope Nokia sues everyone, so we have no innovating competition! *facepalm*

Nokia allows companies to license this technology. Apple apparently opted not to do so. That doesn't stifle innovation in the way that many of these patent cases does. It is allowing use of these technologies, just for a fee.

Jugalator said,
Nokia won't win much at all, silly "PC's". :-p

They're doing this because this company is NOT doing well lately. :-/

They're desperate. It's not because they have a solid case, it's because they have to do something.

They are still the biggest phone maker in the world, so I hardly doubt that they are in any way desperate

pielor said,
I'm also a PC, so?

I dont understand why Nokia should win as they are the "fathers of telecommunications" wow big deal, GM are the fathers of motors and they went bankrupt just because of bad management, so what! this is life!


actually Ford are not GM

nokiaxion said,

Imagine someone explained a new finding in the "E=MC2" but gave no credit at all to the original man to found it and just called "E=MC2" (and his own finding) his own.

How would the "founding father" even though he is dead feel?

He wouldn't, because he's DEAD. The point of patents is not protect feelings, it's to encourage new ideas by providing some guarantee to the innovator that the fruits of their labor will be rewarded.