Opera still unhappy with browser-ballot

Hakon Wium Lie, Opera's chief technology officer, told The Register that the ballot screen is hidden when users download Internet Explorer and the ballot screen at the same time.

Opera demonstrated the problem at The Register's offices in San Francisco, using a Thinkpad X31 running Windows XP SP2. 

IE configuration screen obscuring the browser-ballot.

A spokesperson said, "This scenario is very easy to reproduce in a test lab, but would occur only in unusual cases in the real world. For it to occur with the Browser Choice screen, the user would need to have IE set as their default browser and have never configured it for use. Opera’s example, where a Windows XP user has rejected installation of IE 8 for the year it has been available but suddenly decides to install it is not realistic".

Lie also added, "When you've been through the 10 screens of IE settings, you are limited with what you can be bothered doing next". 

This news coming just two days after Net Applications reported that Opera had gained only 0.02% market share for the month of March.  

Opera has not yet decided if they will file a formal complaint with the EU. The EU already sued Microsoft for $1.44bn and could do again if they find Microsoft guilty of not following the antitrust law. 

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What a bunch of whiners I see in these comments.

How is it right that the IE8 intro screen blocks the ballot screen? That you have to click through IE to get to the ballot?

That seems like a very obvious problem, and I really don't understand all the people whining about someone pointing out the obvious.

It's a crazy world.

How come no one complains that Apple doesn't allow anything other than Safari/Webkit into their iPhone 'walled garden'? Imagine a browser-ballot the first time you load Safari on the iPhone!!

brittosa said,
How come no one complains that Apple doesn't allow anything other than Safari/Webkit into their iPhone 'walled garden'? Imagine a browser-ballot the first time you load Safari on the iPhone!!

Edited by ilev, Apr 6 2010, 7:12am :

IE usage in europe is down
Alt browser is up (firefox being the bread winner)
Ms can "fix" this with a simple tweak and does look un-intended.

It's amazing how most of you seem to be completely blinded by irrational hate.

This has nothing to do with Opera. It has to do with Microsoft breaking the law. Whether you like Opera or not has nothing to do with anything. This is not a lawsuit between Opera and Microsoft. It is between Microsoft and the EEA. As long as Microsoft continues to break the law and refuses to comply with the courts, they will continue to be punished. Just like they should.

The fact that Opera or anyone else points out bugs is something that should be just welcomed. Not on Neowin, though. No, here people are almost ready to hunt down and murder every last Opera employee. It's pathetic.

If Microsoft does not want to be convicted, they need to stop breaking the law, and they need to comply with the punishments that are handed down to them. It's very simple.

All you fanboys need the biggest reality check in the universe. Microsoft is not your friend. Microsoft is a corporation that exists to make money off of you. A corporation with a long history of abusive behavior. Just because they bestow upon you the honor of being allowed to pay hundreds of dollars for their products does not mean we should ignore that this is a corporation that has violated the law on most continents of the planet, been convicted of it, and then failed to comply with the requirements of the courts.

One wonders if you people also show up outside of prisons to protest the imprisonment of guilty criminals and criminals who violate probation.

hdood said,
One wonders if you people also show up outside of prisons to protest the imprisonment of guilty criminals and criminals who violate probation.

If they were imprisoned for violating BS eurotrash laws like Microsoft than I absolutely do. Idiots with such irrational hatred for Microsoft just because they are successful and don't give you their products for free have no room to accuse anyone else of not thinking clearly.

Osirus23 said,

If they were imprisoned for violating BS eurotrash laws like Microsoft than I absolutely do.

You mean, unlike the US where.. Oh wait, Microsoft was convicted there for the same thing (although in much more detail, with more serious stuff.)

If you want to protest the laws of the United States and the EEA, then that is fine, but then what does that have to do with Opera? Nothing.

Osirus23 said,

Idiots with such irrational hatred for Microsoft just because they are successful and don't give you their products for free have no room to accuse anyone else of not thinking clearly.

Nice to see that the point went right over your head. It was not that Microsoft should give anything away for free, it was that there is no reason to defend Microsoft illegal activities. It's not like there's anything in it for you. It's nice to see that you firmly believe that being "successful" should count as a get out of jail free card though. I'm not really surprised. Personally I think celebrities should be allowed at least four killing sprees a year.

hdood said,

You mean, unlike the US where.. Oh wait, Microsoft was convicted there for the same thing (although in much more detail, with more serious stuff.)

If you want to protest the laws of the United States and the EEA, then that is fine, but then what does that have to do with Opera? Nothing.

Nice to see that the point went right over your head. It was not that Microsoft should give anything away for free, it was that there is no reason to defend Microsoft illegal activities. It's not like there's anything in it for you. It's nice to see that you firmly believe that being "successful" should count as a get out of jail free card though. I'm not really surprised. Personally I think celebrities should be allowed at least four killing sprees a year.

Or maybe the laws are arbitrary and are not wielded to provide justice. Companies deserve "get out of jail free" cards just as much as they deserve to be punished for their success. I despise IE with a deep, deep passion, but it seems pretty clear to me that the solution is to offer a better product.

Osirus23 said,

Idiots with such irrational hatred for Microsoft just because they are successful and don't give you their products for free

But MS do give their stuff away for free.

IE, bye Netscape
WMP, bye Winamp + Real Player
Windows/MSN Messenger, bye AOL, ICQ
Windows Gallery/Photo Viewer, bye ACDSee
Microsoft Security Essential, pack your bag Norton

When the netbook craze first took off, many people are excited for the future of Linux. Especially when MS latest OS Vista don't have a chance to enter netbook market. What did MS do? They were forced to start selling XP again and they sold the licence cheaply to netbook manufacturer (reportedly around $10/licence). All this happen in the last 24 months.

http://en.windows7sins.org/

Microsoft hopes charity push will spur IE downloads. Would Opera or Firefox have the fund to do this?
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10263790-56.html

Oh dear looks as though Mucrosoft has done it again. Opera has a right to complain, that is downright naughty of Microsoft. Although, I do not agree with the ballot, mainly because it is up to the End User which browser he/she want to use. I personally cannot see why the EU install MSIE8 and then go to Opera, Firefox, Safari, Google Chrome downdload and install whatever browser they want to use as their default. Because of my work I use all of them and Firefox is my default browser. To stop the message coming up in MSIE8 tell to to ignore the message Internet Explorer is not your default browser.

Microsoft IS NOT a monopoly.
A monopoly means that there's only one competitor and no one else.
That's not the case because:
1) no one is preventing anyone from buying other computrers with other operative systems installed;
2) no one is preventing from using different browser and there's plenty of advertisings about that;
3) no one is preventing people from buying a notebook and installing linux instead;
4) no one is preventing, for example, hp from selling linux-based pcs;

Microsoft is only dominant in the market which has a completely different meaning in economy.
Democracy in business/capitalism is really dangerous, believe me. And trying to "balance" the market with these kind of rules reminds me painly of the soviet union communist rulings in trying to control the russian economy: they epicly failed.
Put simply: forcing an enterprise to advertise competitor products is pure madness/nonsense in absolute terms. There's no "if" or "but". It's really nonsense.
If competitors are feeble they need, in the western economy, to advertise and build better products. And, in fact, when they do this, they cna be really competitive uncaring of a strong competitor.
If Opera complains about something, it only has to blame itself.
It's fool to ask for creating laws to force people to use a product that has a ridiculous market share.

OSX has not a monopoly but Apple is, for example, strongly dominant in iPods market.
Apple FORCES you to use iTunes (which is unaccessable via web) to sync your iPod. So, why don't study a ballot screen in order to have alternatives to iTunes?
Sounds crazy isn't it? Because IT IS.

DaveGreen said,
Microsoft IS NOT a monopoly.
A monopoly means that there's only one competitor and no one else.
That's not the case because:
1) no one is preventing anyone from buying other computrers with other operative systems installed;
2) no one is preventing from using different browser and there's plenty of advertisings about that;
3) no one is preventing people from buying a notebook and installing linux instead;
4) no one is preventing, for example, hp from selling linux-based pcs;

As of October 2009, Windows had approximately 91%. ALL of them have Internet Explorer installed and set as default.

1. Can you get a PC with Linux pre-installed as the default OS from the shop? Not unless you custom build order it. Most of them won't even do that.

2. Have you seen a non-IE browser ad in print, on TV, on the radio, at the cinema? Those are the accessible medium of the average folk who have no interest in technology. Sure Mozilla manage to run 1 ad in the New York Times back in 2004 to celebrate the launch of Firefox 1.0, funded by the donation 10,000 users. No one else outside the US get to see it.

3. Sure you can buy any machine and install Linux on it yourself but you can't buy one off the shelf without Windows already on it, which you can't get a refund on the Windows licence you don't plan to use.

4. Did you know at one time Microsoft has agreement with shop/company which ban them from selling PC with other OS. Company who does not sign up for to this agreement can't buy any from Microsoft. This doesn't happen anymore because the law step in and put a stop to this anti-competitive practice.

How do you thing Norton, MacFee, Kaspersky feel when Microsoft start giving away their Microsoft Security Essential for FREE. Suddenly, mom and pop users don't have to pay $90 annual subscription for antivirus/spyware protection. 5 years from now the antivirus market will probably dwindle to just a few players. Norton will have to go back to adding more software to add values to their package.

Jaron said,

How do you thing Norton, MacFee, Kaspersky feel when Microsoft start giving away their Microsoft Security Essential for FREE. Suddenly, mom and pop users don't have to pay $90 annual subscription for antivirus/spyware protection. 5 years from now the antivirus market will probably dwindle to just a few players. Norton will have to go back to adding more software to add values to their package.

No MS is evil because their products are so more expensive than others, but now they are evil because they're distributing software for free? And why is it MSE that's going to kill Norton, McAfee, and other horrible antivirus makes? What about AVG and avast? Why aren't they the harbingers of doom as well? Oh, becuase they aren't made by Microsoft so its ok I suppose.

Osirus23 said,

No MS is evil because their products are so more expensive than others, but now they are evil because they're distributing software for free? And why is it MSE that's going to kill Norton, McAfee, and other horrible antivirus makes? What about AVG and avast? Why aren't they the harbingers of doom as well? Oh, becuase they aren't made by Microsoft so its ok I suppose.

The really irony is that if Microsoft did their job right, these companies and their products wouldn't even be necessary.

Osirus23 said,

but now they are evil because they're distributing software for free? And why is it MSE that's going to kill Norton, McAfee, and other horrible antivirus makes?

Let me clarify it to you. When MS offer MSE with a price tag of $0.00. Norton and the likes won't be able to compete. Antivirus company business model is to sell you subscription. When the subscription numbers drop, many of them will be force out of the market. Eventually when the market is stabilised again with MS owning the lionshare of the market, 80-90%+. They can start charging whatever price they want cause you don't have the CHOICE anymore.

Example: Netscape vs Internet Explorer. Netscape was the superior product up to v3. In the beginning, Netscape was charging for the browser. MS start offering IE free in Win95 and integrated tightly into Win98. Netscape market share disappear over the next 2 years until it stop development completely. MS having succeeded rest on the behind for many years until Firefox came along and made them get off their said behind to catch up.

It's nice to see Ars Technica pickup this story and wrote a much more balance piece. The user comments there are much more even and mature too.

http://arstechnica.com/microso...mes-hidden-by-ie-wizard.ars

Edited by Jaron, Apr 7 2010, 11:49am :

When I worked for the defense industry I used to hear about the approach the HP took with the government when they told them they wanted to buy calculators and that they wanted HP to give them all kinds of competitive information regarding their products so they could send out competitive bids. At this time the only US company making high-level calculators was Texas Instruments. HP responded that this was a commercial product and it had a commercial price. If they wanted to buy an HP calculator then the price was already set (they might be able to get a quantity discount) but they're weren't willing to bend over backwards to be agreeable with the government.

I've often thought that Microsoft has handled the EU's issues with Windows, Office and Internet Explorer the wrong way. The majority of desktop computers in the world run on some form of Windows. Yes, you can buy Macs, or run Linux, or Solaris, Unix and who knows what other operating systems if you choose. But there's a reason that so many people have gone to Windows in some form or another. It works surprisingly well, even with all of the security concerns, malware attacks and the failure of some versions like Windows ME and Vista. It would cost Microsoft a lot of money, but at some point I would think of telling them "Fine, we'll stop selling Windows (and Office) in your countries since we can't seem to make you happy." How many computers would be running bootleg or illegal copies of Microsoft's products after a few years? Maybe Apple would be willing to work with the EU and have them direct their product development?

No chance in hell of Opera making a dent against Chrome, IE or even Firefox at this point. The only people savvy enough to have given Opera a fair chance would likely turn their backs on them now. Well, maybe not everyone but I certainly will. I can't support a browser developed by a snobby little company full of sore losers.

The level of whining on Neowin regarding this issue far exceeds any "whining" that Opera may be doing. Some of the comments here appear to be written by 12 year old boys.

Zer0_II said,
The level of whining on Neowin regarding this issue far exceeds any "whining" that Opera may be doing. Some of the comments here appear to be written by 12 year old boys.

I love how any comment someone doesn't agree with must have been written my twelve year olds.

Sometimes I'd like that Microsoft falls tomorrow.
I's like to see, for example, how is to have Apple as a predominant pc maker/os maker.
It would be real fun. Really.

hmm. SP2 and the "end user" hadn't downloaded IE8 for over a year. I thought this "ballot" screen was for users with new PCs...to choose what browser they wanted? If that isn't the case...then the "ballot" screen should be forced on all Windows operating systems...including Windows 3.1

Really Opera...just shut up already. Time to equate that company to a whiny kid.

buckboii said,
so basically Microsoft cheated out all other browsers.

Nope, not even close. Do a little homework on the topic

This is really pretty silly. Opera has been crying to the EU about Microsoft not being fair by including a browser with their OS, but don't complain that Apple includes one (Safari) with OS 10 and almost every Linux distro comes with a built-in browser and/or Firefox. I think that Microsoft has been pretty good about this - they probably should've just not included ANY browser in the Windows versions destined for the European nations - let the user try to figure out how to get on the internet without one. I doubt that you'd see McDonald's promoting Burger King or Wendy's or Toyota being forced to advertise Ford or Honda products. Why is it Microsoft's responsibility to tell people about alternatives to their product.

I understand that many people never move from IE to another browser because it's the one that comes with the operating system (even if many of them are better than IE). I would assume the majority of Microsoft's market share in the browser market is based upon users who have never tried another product. I've used IE, Firefox, Safari, Chrome, Opera and many other browsers over the year and still have a couple on my Windows 7-based system. But Opera is NOT one of those since I've found it doesn't work any better than Firefox (my default choice) and isn't good enough to make me drop IE or Comodo Dragon.

Actually in Europe when we go to McDonalds and ask for a cheeseburger - we get the bun only. Then asked if we want a McDonalds beef burger, Burger King beef burger, KFC chicken burger (wtf - I want a cheeseburger, and why is the chicken burger installing iTunes?), or the option of the mysterious random late night kebab shop burger.... Of course if we really wanted the late night dodgy burger we would have gone their in the first place (mind we would also be blindly drunk to go taste Opera, i mean that burger).

Following the link in the news - it's 2% not, 0,02%. That means actual usage of Opera is close to 5%, if taking in account markets where Opera is main player.

coth said,
Following the link in the news - it's 2% not, 0,02%. That means actual usage of Opera is close to 5%, if taking in account markets where Opera is main player.

Take a look at the link again. It says in February Opera had a share 2.35%, then in March it had 2.37%. Now lets subtract: 2.37-2.35 = 0.02% gain.

Edited by GoodStuff!!!, Apr 4 2010, 5:31pm :

GoodStuff!!! said,

Take a look at the link again. It says in February Opera had a share 2.35%, then in March it had 2.37%. Now lets subtract: 2.37-2.35 = 0.02% gain.

growth then, not gain.

I don't think it really matters. The casual user can get away with the latest IE, anyone wanting something more will know what browsers are out there but still uses FF or Chrome.

Opera has never really been an option for me, and thats not because of a browser ballot screen, its because Ive used it.

Magallanes said,
But Opera is asking for a fair trade. is it that so hard?

Nope but they've had "fair trade" as much as IE's major competitors - Chrome and FireFox. And look how well they're doing without bawling their eyes out to the EU.

Are Opera and SCO run by the same group of leeches? It sure seems like it. The ONLY thing in my house that has Opera installed is my Wii.

I think the 0.02%, that is me

But I have to agree that Opera is a bit whiny on that matter.
Next thing they might complain about that there might be people that don't look on the screen, press a mouse button and accidentally choose another browser.

Next Week: Opera complain about every software installer for every product obscuring the ballot screen.

Seriously Opera, STFU, GTFO and get a life!!!!

I used Opera, once. But whenever i ran it in full screen i couldn't see my desktop underneath which was so unfair.......had a lovely picture of the ocean as well........ Shame on you Opera!

Dave68 said,
I used Opera, once. But whenever i ran it in full screen i couldn't see my desktop underneath which was so unfair.......had a lovely picture of the ocean as well........ Shame on you Opera!

+1
roflol

they enforcing opera users to boycott their product by this kind of behaves and they already making bad impression about their company for the new user who think about installing it i was opera user before but now i really don't like their attitude and i stopped using their browser for infinite time . greedy company.

DaveGreen said,

This is simply untrue.
The update comes optional only with IE as default.
If you have other browsers the update dosen't even come.

The problem is reporting fact or using reputable sources is something theregister struggle with, let alone that this is one users experience. If what was posted was true, it would be all over the internet.

I'm an Opera user but this kind of neatpicking is just stupid. The ballotscreen is very much visible despite the rare cases this happens.

The Browser Ballot isn't about YOU, the reader of Neowin. It's about the people who have never know a world beyond Internet Explorer.

Jaron said,
The Browser Ballot isn't about YOU, the reader of Neowin. It's about the people who have never know a world beyond Internet Explorer.
Then Opera can do what every other company does, pay to promote their product. Since they can't afford to do that, they use the "law" to force another company to do it for them.

If you can't compete, you don't need to be in business.

It makes perfect sense to me. Those loosers at Opera will never be satisfied. Nobody want their crappy products, so lets use EU commision to force them our software in some way.

Right ok, I didn't want to install Opera in the first place, so please stop trying to be in my face and make me install opera when I didn't choose you.

Next week: Opera demands Browser ballot screen should be set to "always on top", because an IE window could be covering it, and the chance of educating poor ignorant users to use Opera could be gone forever!

Opera needs to go and kill themselves. This is way beyond reason and well into idiotic. They're even worse than OSS extremists now.
If this had been posted on April 1st, I would seriously have thought it would be a joke.

Fair enough, defeats the purpose of having a ballot screen to pick and install a browser if your strongly suggesting that users 'install' a browser before hand.

i know they want more market share but cmon there is only so much you can do.at least opera beats and owns Internet Exploder er Internet Explorer.

Opera demonstrated the problem at The Register's offices in San Francisco, using a Thinkpad X31 running Windows XP SP2.

Probably doesn't happen on SP3 then?

Support for Windows XP with Service Pack 2 will end on July 13, 2010 anyway...

I can see all of the posters say negative things about Opera; just because Opera takes a stand and fight. I would think that many users on Neowin thinks much more critical and logical, but it turns out, many of the users on this site are very biased. The news is no longer something to ponder but something to mock at. With such a huge crowd that think this way, there's no room for logical talk with neither of them. Look at some of the post; they are outright childish. Only contains one word at times. Either it's a "+1" or "Wahaaaaa!"

I thought this site has many brilliant tech savvy users, but it turns out that right now a lot of 13-17 years old kids posting senseless, illogical phrase, and clueless assumptions. Maybe those brilliant tech savvy people realized that the majority of the children are taken over this site and they've gone to somewhere else?

Krome said,
I can see all of the posters say negative things about Opera; just because Opera takes a stand and fight. I would think that many users on Neowin thinks much more critical and logical, but it turns out, many of the users on this site are very biased. The news is no longer something to ponder but something to mock at. With such a huge crowd that think this way, there's no room for logical talk with neither of them. Look at some of the post; they are outright childish. Only contains one word at times. Either it's a "+1" or "Wahaaaaa!"

I thought this site has many brilliant tech savvy users, but it turns out that right now a lot of 13-17 years old kids posting senseless, illogical phrase, and clueless assumptions. Maybe those brilliant tech savvy people realized that the majority of the children are taken over this site and they've gone to somewhere else?

Try reading most of the articles about Apple. Ha! Can I get a +1 on that? Waahaa!

Krome said,
I can see all of the posters say negative things about Opera; just because Opera takes a stand and fight. I would think that many users on Neowin thinks much more critical and logical, but it turns out, many of the users on this site are very biased. The news is no longer something to ponder but something to mock at. With such a huge crowd that think this way, there's no room for logical talk with neither of them. Look at some of the post; they are outright childish. Only contains one word at times. Either it's a "+1" or "Wahaaaaa!"

I thought this site has many brilliant tech savvy users, but it turns out that right now a lot of 13-17 years old kids posting senseless, illogical phrase, and clueless assumptions. Maybe those brilliant tech savvy people realized that the majority of the children are taken over this site and they've gone to somewhere else?

Yeah that is real mature calling everyone kids with no seriousness while opera keeps whining like kid the whole time. You don't appear smart by calling others kids and dismissing their opinion. For starters what is the point in using SP2 for demo purposes while the OS has moved on to SP3 and beyond ? They couldn't even get the demo platform right. Who is the kid now ?

dazhu said,
I wonder if the people who commented above actually lives in the European Union?

Yes, I do. So what?

I have all four major browsers installed, but I'll switch permanently to whichever posts a Picard facepalm pic on their homepage first.

"This news coming just two days after Net Applications reported that Opera had gained only 0.02% market share for the month of March. "

Really? LOL... That's the most epic fail ever. Opera executives probably are beating their heads over this.

tooshpz said,
"This news coming just two days after Net Applications reported that Opera had gained only 0.02% market share for the month of March. "

Really? LOL... That's the most epic fail ever. Opera executives probably are beating their heads over this.

Net Applications does not count world-wide statistics. They count only few western counties where Opera is not popular.

that's enough opera. people have done everything to make you popular and yet you are not. you are just not popular. now accept that FACT so everybody else can move on.

For someone who has used the ballot, what happens after you made a choice? Does the ballot screen icon disappear from the taskbar?

If so, that's an incredibly stupid decision. What if someone wanted to try out what other browsers there are, and then figured out they did not like it and want to go back?

I don't use Windows but at this point I'm ready to delete Opera off my Mac due to the fact that they keep complaining over and over again.

The IE screen is to make Google happy. (Select the default search engine)
The Ballot screen is to make Opera happy.

Which to keep that is indeed a good question?

figgy said,
The IE screen is to make Google happy. (Select the default search engine)
The Ballot screen is to make Opera happy.

Which to keep that is indeed a good question?

It's randomised - Opera could be in the first slot as well, but that wouldn't really help their cause if they posted a screenshot like that.

Less crying (seriously, the very next time Opera mentions the word "ballot," I'm done), more getting the egregious bugs out of 10.5, which was rushed out the door in time for the ballot. So rushed that even 10.51 doesn't cut it. Neither does 10.52 beta yet (yes, I know, it's just a beta, but so are 10.51 and 10.5). The real 10.5 final may come one day....

My site has had 271,000 visitors this month from all around the world here's my stats:
Internet Explorer 47.44%
Firefox 36.21%
Chrome 8.96%
Safari 4.5%
Opera 1.6%

Opera has jumped a little tiny bit, but a few months ago chrome was sitting at 4%, IE has fell from 52%, firefox has lost just under 1%

OMFG, any MORE complaints? They should just ban Opera and do away with ballots. This is effin ridiculous now.

Raa said,
OMFG, any MORE complaints? They should just ban Opera and do away with ballots. This is effin ridiculous now.

...then they would just complain more...

I would choose any browser of IE8, it just not reliable for some reason now it lags terribly for me whenever I accidentally boot it up. Nothing major here but where is opera for the iphone ? That is a must safari browser has had basically no work done to it by lazy apple who have been outdone truly by opera.

The number of IE6 users on my site has basically fell to 0% the only visitors now are people in offices and colleges.

Gaffney said,
Nothing major here but where is opera for the iphone ? That is a must safari browser has had basically no work done to it by lazy apple who have been outdone truly by opera..
You know, I believe Opera actually said they've finished their iPhone browser and had submitted it to Apple, who will of course deny the submission... maybe they'll finally be going after Apple next, it'd make sense, since I can't believe for a second that Opera would expect their browser to be released. I mean, people are always wondering why Apple never get pestered by the EU... maybe Opera are gonna try to get back some of the Microsoft fanboys, by becoming the enemy of their enemy.

We should all just boycott opera completely. Just because they are a bunch of cry babies. Grow up
opera. Learn how to do business!

dimithrak said,
We should all just boycott opera completely.

We don't need too. We're already doing it, globally.

Hey EU... A web browser it's part of OS today! YOU Basterds!!!

What's next?! Remove explorer, start menu, file system, kernel...

mentas said,
Hey EU... A web browser it's part of OS today! YOU Basterds!!!

What's next?! Remove explorer, start menu, file system, kernel...

You know nothing was removed, right?

I tested Oprea on my friend's laptop but no special toolbar for Mafia Wars, so I removed it. She stick with firefox and IE 8 both. I only use IE 8 on my computer.

gameboy1977 said,
I tested Oprea on my friend's laptop but no special toolbar for Mafia Wars, so I removed it. She stick with firefox and IE 8 both. I only use IE 8 on my computer.

You should get a hint and use FF like your smart friend

gameboy1977 said,
I tested Oprea on my friend's laptop but no special toolbar for Mafia Wars, so I removed it. She stick with firefox and IE 8 both. I only use IE 8 on my computer.

While I think FF is better, IE 8 really isn't that bad IMO.

gameboy1977 said,
I tested Oprea on my friend's laptop but no special toolbar for Mafia Wars, so I removed it. She stick with firefox and IE 8 both. I only use IE 8 on my computer.
For browser games Firefox is currently the best because of the available add-ons/scripts.

Hey stupid EU...

Where is the f*** "browser-ballot" on Mac OS, iPhone, iPad, Android, Linux?!?! Where?!!?

EU want $$$ $$$ $$$! It's all about it $$$!

mentas said,
Hey stupid EU...

Where is the f*** "browser-ballot" on Mac OS, iPhone, iPad, Android, Linux?!?! Where?!!?

EU want $$ $$ ${0}#33; It's all about it ${0}#33;


OSX has too little market share to matter. That's why they don't force the ballot screen on it too. On mobile devices, they can't do that. And Linux is open-source, so...

mentas said,
Hey stupid EU...

Where is the f*** "browser-ballot" on Mac OS, iPhone, iPad, Android, Linux?!?! Where?!!?

EU want $$ $$ ${0}#33; It's all about it ${0}#33;

There isn't one because none of the others you mentioned do not have a huge market share unlike Microsoft IE. For the EU, it is not about money, it is about fair play. They want competition, not monopoly. Atleast they had the guts of taking on big American companies when they break EU laws. They are just implementing the law. For all the American's who think that US is the world, this might sound strange. Remember how they took on Honeywell and GE. Microsoft is not an exception.

You know the whole "Apple has no marketshare" argument is getting very old and tired. Their marketshare is completely irrelevant. The principle is the same. You force a ballot on Windows, force it on Mac OS X and Linux next.

The EU has proved over and over again that they care only about lining their pockets with cash from successful American companies. If they had any consideration for the European consumer there wouldn't be a ballot box - Opera would be required to fight for their own marketshare just as Mozilla did.

Andrew Lyle said,
all these lawsuits and complaining, and no one still wants Opera.. (except 2% of the market) shame Opera.. time to take a hint?

They can't. They believe that if people use their browser on mobile devices, they SHOULD use it on PCs too.

TDT said,

They can't. They believe that if people use their browser on mobile devices, they SHOULD use it on PCs too.

... and the irony being a lot of their mobile market share comes from pre-installs - I don't know anyone who changes the default browser on their mobile.

Waaaaa waaaa we need mobile ballot screen

lt8480 said,

... and the irony being a lot of their mobile market share comes from pre-installs - I don't know anyone who changes the default browser on their mobile.

Waaaaa waaaa we need mobile ballot screen

Your tech community must be small then.

ArKeYa said,
Your tech community must be small then.

A "tech community" is not the generally mass of the real world though it accounts for <1% of people. Most people I know don't live on the internet through their phones, people I know generally only look at information like news / sport results / train times / flight information and maps sporadically on their phone. It hardly warrants organising bookmarks in your favourite way and needing a browser of choice.

Anyway my point was... 99% of people won't change their mobile browser... and most of Operas mobile usage comes from the preinstalls.

lt8480 said,

A "tech community" is not the generally mass of the real world though it accounts for <1% of people...


I was kidding. I was taking a poke using Mike's definition of "tech community". See this related comment- http://www.neowin.net/news/ope...wser-ballot#comment-1037347

And I quote..

Mike Chipshop said,
When i say 'tech community' i was more talking about my closer group of friends and geeks who now just laugh at Opera every time they pull another stunt like this.

Edited by ArKeYa, Apr 5 2010, 12:48pm :

Recon415 said,
And even the Opera fanboys are speechless!

I am an Opera fanboy! I don't give a **** to IE or Mozilla. I just use Opera for real work and Chrome for quick browsing. All of this Flashless if possible. And I personally think that many things you get for granted in a browser now first appeared in Opera (take tabs, sessions, gestures, whatever). Despite that, do I agree with the crazy Opera company jihad against Microsoft? Certainly not!!! Do I agree with the totally dumb filings of Real Networks against Microsoft? Even less!! And do I find EU attitude against Microsoft totally crazy?? ( despite being European myself) Completely!! Never I'll buy a crappy Windows N version just because the EU managed to get this crap out!! Do you still want to describe me as a speechless Opera fanboy?? Why not... I don't care you being a Mozilla or Safari fanboy tho.

My implication was that everyone is speechless, specifically mentioning the Opera fanboys, because fanboys are known to defend their company no matter what. The stupidity of the company and the EU is completely over the top compared what used to be. I've used the Opera browser, I consider it a superb software, but their behaviour doesn't necessarily have to reflect their developing skills, now does it?

Edited by Reacon, Apr 4 2010, 1:38am :

Recon415 said,
My implication was that everyone is speechless, specifically mentioning the Opera fanboys, because fanboys are known to defend their company no matter what. The stupidity of the company and the EU is completely over the top compared what used to be. I've used the Opera browser, I consider it a superb software, but their behaviour doesn't necessarily have to reflect their developing skills, now does it?
Another example of where it's clear to see that the only intelligent lifeforms present in most companies reside within the IT department

Kashaar said,

And I personally think that many things you get for granted in a browser now first appeared in Opera (take tabs, sessions, gestures, whatever).

Haha, fanboy fail. Tabs were in InternetWorks and NetCaptor years before Opera had them. So STFU.

Kashaar said,

And I personally think that many things you get for granted in a browser now first appeared in Opera (take tabs, sessions, gestures, whatever).

For the gazillionth time, _Opera did not invent tabbed browsing, nor did it first implement it!_

Damn these unbustable tech myths! I'm not even going to bother pointing to the browser that did introduce it anymore.

Edited by k7of9, Apr 4 2010, 6:09am :

Wait, did I miss something?

They are 'proving' this at a San Francisco office, and the browser ballot is an EU thing.

Opera, if you want to 'prove' something, at least run the 'test' in a location where it is valid.

Nightwind Hawk said,
Can't Microsoft buy opera and just kill it?

True, it would cost them less money than they're paying to the f-ing EU...

I have to say, I've still never seen this screen. I'm in the EU, and I've installed that update on a fresh XP install (with IE as default). Weird.

hotdog963al said,
I have to say, I've still never seen this screen. I'm in the EU, and I've installed that update on a fresh XP install (with IE as default). Weird.

And I'm getting the ballot screen as an important update from Windows update on Win 7 x64. LOL.

TDT said,

And I'm getting the ballot screen as an important update from Windows update on Win 7 x64. LOL.
I got it as an important update on 7 (32bit), never saw it though, but I was already using Chrome as default.

Wow at some of the comments here. A bug that causes a window to overlay on top of the other, blocking it is not worth fixing?

chAos972 said,
Wow at some of the comments here. A bug that causes a window to overlay on top of the other, blocking it is not worth fixing?

As per the article, the "user" was trying to install IE, of course it has to overlap the retarded ballot screen, actually the bug should be that it didn't close once the user selected a browser

I still feel Opera is the best browser out there, but I cannot say the same about the companies views on things like this....

Oh my god, haven't we had enough of this already?

And to think I nearly f'in switched to Opera a year or two back, well they can be sure Ill never be thinking about that again -- bunch of babies!

The maker of the crappiest browser on Earth is still moaning like a 5 year-old, hoping to get people to download that **** called Opera. What a bunch of idiots.

TDT said,
The maker of the crappiest browser on Earth is still moaning like a 5 year-old, hoping to get people to download that **** called Opera. What a bunch of idiots.
It's not the crappiest browser on Earth, it's actually a fairly decent product.

Now had you said "crappiest company", I might have agreed with you

TCLN Ryster said,
It's not the crappiest browser on Earth, it's actually a fairly decent product.

Now had you said "crappiest company", I might have agreed with you


Well, I was thinking about the "major" players here, not extremely less known browsers. From that selection, Opera IS the crappiest browser. And yes, also the crappiest company for pulling stunts like this. There's fierce competition between MS and Google, Apple and others, but you don't see them moaning like idiots.

thealexweb said,
Fail at Opera 1) for moaning 2) for failing to gain even a moderate amount of market share despite your moaning.

This.

Mike Chipshop said,
They've lost so much respect from the tech community already because of their whining... why wont they just learn!?!
If you look around the actual tech community, stuff like this makes them smile. We're in a bubble here at NeoWIN, if we venture out into the world of the geek (most notably Slashdot), it's not so pretty.

UHYVE said,
If you look around the actual tech community, stuff like this makes them smile. We're in a bubble here at NeoWIN, if we venture out into the world of the geek (most notably Slashdot), it's not so pretty.

I quite agree. I really can't see no reason to oppose this. The least one can do is not support it. And Neowin being a bubble - spot on.

When i say 'tech community' i was more talking about my closer group of friends and geeks who now just laugh at Opera every time they pull another stunt like this.

LOL.. that's just ridiculous... Opera needs to f*ck off already... if the users download IE8, they CHOSE to. And even if they didn't choose to, this scenario is very unlikely and it's so stupid... they're just taking every chance they can get to get their crappy browser to the top when really they're just making themselves look like whiners. They should market their product more if they really want it to rise.

Not really Opera's fault, EU already has MS bent over and competitors will take every opportunity to take advantage of it.

08993 said,
Not really Opera's fault, EU already has MS bent over and competitors will take every opportunity to take advantage of it.

Over course it's their fault if they choose to have a problem with every implementation of the ballot screen. Why isn't any other competitor whining as much as Opera??

Bhav said,

Over course it's their fault if they choose to have a problem with every implementation of the ballot screen. Why isn't any other competitor whining as much as Opera??

Because Opera can smell weakness? This isn't petty squabbling between friends it's a cut throat, multi million dollar industry. Cause and effect, the situation that has made this all possible is directly responsible.

Bhav said,

Over course it's their fault if they choose to have a problem with every implementation of the ballot screen. Why isn't any other competitor whining as much as Opera??


Because they want Opera to take the initial backlash while they stay under the radar and then they enjoy the fruits. You know like what happened the last time.

ArKeYa said,

Because they want Opera to take the initial backlash while they stay under the radar and then they enjoy the fruits. You know like what happened the last time.

+1

ArKeYa said,

Because they want Opera to take the initial backlash while they stay under the radar and then they enjoy the fruits. You know like what happened the last time.

Funny that the Firefox fanboys who are spamming this thread with "qq opera" don't mention that... I wonder why
Hypocrites bashing Opera for taking the first step but then shut up when their beloved god (Mozilla) does it. Double facepalm for them, I actually feel sorry for these sad, sad children.

Edited by rpsgc, Apr 4 2010, 9:13am :

agreenbhm said,
Does anyone else think Opera should just shut up already?

Yep... I actually really like (the new) Opera, but I ain't using in until they stop with this crap... :\

I think Opera is run by 12 year-olds.

If the user had downloaded IE8 at the same time then isn't that a indication that the user knows what they're doing?

DonC said,
If the user had downloaded IE8 at the same time then isn't that a indication that the user knows what they're doing?

+1

Indeed, it also indicated that the user WANTED IE8 and made that choice. What does it matter in that circumstance if the choice screen is obscured?

TCLN Ryster said,

+1

Indeed, it also indicated that the user WANTED IE8 and made that choice. What does it matter in that circumstance if the choice screen is obscured?

Maybe they want a wallpaper with the browser choices out there.

I'm always testing new browser versions, but I decided I had enough with Opera and their whining. I will still install new versions of Chrome and safari just to keep testing them, but my default still is Firefox and for some bank sites here I use TheWorld instead of IE8 but that's just because of its startup speed and default settings.

IE8 does a more than decent job. Chrome is showing a promising future but until I can replace all my firefox extensions I won't keep it as the default.

Maybe if Opera marketed their browser more, they'd get more users. Bitching and whining about other more successful browsers isn't going to help Opera get any more popular. Make a good product, and then people will use it.

Bhav said,
*facepalm* opera...we're sorry most people think you suck, but please just accept it and move on

i used to put opera in the ranks of netscape hehe... down she goes.

SHoTTa35 said,
"Whaaaaaaaaaaa - they aren't playing fair, i'm taking my ball and going home!"
No they're not going home. They're staying and crying. LOL

Hell-In-A-Handbasket said,
why dont they just ome out and say they wont stop complaining until their browser is the default and the only browser on the list

+1

They should be happy about their share in the mobile market. Maybe if they spent less time complaining and more time improving the browser, people might start using it. 10.5 is like a wannabe Chrome, I was happier with their 9.x versions. Firefox is my favorite mainly because of the addons.

Billus said,

10.5 is like a wannabe Chrome

Woah woah there. Yeah, Opera is a bunch of namby pamby crybabies spending more on whining than it would cost for a modest ad campaign, but 10.50 is worlds beyond being a Chrome wannabe. It does an awful lot out of the box that Chrome simply doesn't (farking bookmarks menu without a farking bookmarks toolbar you farking stupid browser).

It also has an almost overwhelmingly customizable interface. Admittedly, yes, I deeply enjoyed being able to switch Chrome from native to themed, that only makes it slightly more customizable than a non-jailbroken iPhone.

Billus said,

+1

They should be happy about their share in the mobile market.


Not to mention the fact that they have 100% market share for browsers on the Wii.

Uh, yes. Like I said, you can't have a bookmark menu without the whole toolbar turned on. thanks for responding...with a picture of the bookmark toolbar. I'm...totally...corrected? Amazing someone even agreed with you too.

Of course, if you can find a way to configure chrome to have access to bookmarks from a regular dropmenu icon like Opera, IE, and FF do, out of the box, you win a cookie. Until then, go fail at reading somewhere ele.

Edited by Joshie, Apr 5 2010, 4:37am :

Joshie said,

Uh, yes. Like I said, you can't have a bookmark menu without the whole toolbar turned on. thanks for responding...with a picture of the bookmark toolbar. I'm...totally...corrected? Amazing someone even agreed with you too.

Of course, if you can find a way to configure chrome to have access to bookmarks from a regular dropmenu icon like Opera, IE, and FF do, out of the box, you win a cookie. Until then, go fail at reading somewhere ele.

You mean this? http://imgur.com/cWHsz.png

Just add the "--bookmark-menu" switch to the end of your shortcut path. Not sure why it's not in the Options (could still be under development), but it's there.

Now, where's my cookie?

I love Chrome and all, but there are so many other things you could have picked on. You choose a drop down bookmarks menu. lol

Dale said,
thats a shame opera... a real shame..

looks like they thought their uncompetitive browser would be a success after people started hearing about it, yet their market share remained unchanged

Dale said,
thats a shame opera... a real shame..

sick of opera now... what do they expect every one use opera?????? not going to happen... it sucks and they have to live with it.....
I agree with most comments here..... they agree that this happens in unusual case so that means its rare.... so its not unfair in any mean...

forgot to say this few weeks ago they were happy about many downloading opera after the ballot but now since they have no increase in market share they cry..... btw, many didnt like it so they stopped using it.

Edited by still1, Apr 4 2010, 7:02am :

Vveazel said,

Yeah really.. cry.

Doesn't anyone check news article sources anymore? The Neowin original poster left out a very important fact. This bug happen when the user is getting the Ballot and IE8 at the same time (automatically) via Windows Update. This is important because some people are under the impression from the screenshot that the user CHOSE IE8 when the fact is they never made any choices. They were just running Windows Update.

Even if this bug only affect 1% of Windows users, that's equal to hundred of millions of people.

I think sometimes we geeks forget that we are the minority. There's one of us to 100+ other people who know nothing about computer. Who only ever use Microsoft Windows and Microsoft Office, the version that came with their machine. The Browser Ballot was design to tell these people that they have choices. There are better, faster and more innovative browser out there.

Edited by Jaron, Apr 4 2010, 10:57am :

Jaron said,

Even if this bug only affect 1% of Windows users, that's equal to hundred of millions of people.

Actually if all 6,692,030,277 people on the planet used Windows 1% would still only be 66,920,302.77 people...

kthx bye...

Edited by xendrome, Apr 4 2010, 12:54pm :

Jaron said,

Doesn't anyone check news article sources anymore? The Neowin original poster left out a very important fact. This bug happen when the user is getting the Ballot and IE8 at the same time (automatically) via Windows Update. This is important because some people are under the impression from the screenshot that the user CHOSE IE8 when the fact is they never made any choices. They were just running Windows Update.

Even if this bug only affect 1% of Windows users, that's equal to hundred of millions of people.

I think sometimes we geeks forget that we are the minority. There's one of us to 100+ other people who know nothing about computer. Who only ever use Microsoft Windows and Microsoft Office, the version that came with their machine. The Browser Ballot was design to tell these people that they have choices. There are better, faster and more innovative browser out there.


This is on Windows XP, dude. Either way you slice it, they will always have IE and the Trident engine installed to do certain things. Windows is just making sure they're as secure as possible by pushing it out in Windows Update.


Also, it's totally fair that the ballot only shows up when IE is the default browser, right? The browser ballot is not an example of choice by definition, but choice by force.

Edited by Trong, Apr 4 2010, 4:41pm :

koppit said,

Not even - not every person has a computer, and according to this: http://www.worldometers.info/computers/
We can estimate what ... 1.3 b? 1% of 1.3b is 13 million. Not. Even. Close.

Exactly, I am using my number based upon a "IF everyone on the planet had access to a computer" it 1% would still only be 66 million people.. this guy says it would be hundreds of millions...