Piracy is just fine, Swiss government says

If the Swiss government is to be believed, piracy is actually good for business. According to a report from the Swiss government, they have decided that the current copyright laws are sufficient, because consumers end up spending what money they save from piracy on other entertainment anyway.

As much as a third of Swiss over 15 regularly pirate music, movies and games. What's more, the report says that the majority of them don't realize that they're breaking the law, despite the wide media coverage on the subject. And even though such a large percentage of people pirate content, the amount they spend on entertainment doesn't really change.

The money they save by piracy ends up being spent on other forms of entertainment, so content creators end up recouping their losses through concerts, cinema and merchandising. Even though they aren't paying for content per se, they still end up paying for the 'experience' that goes along with that content, which is something that you'll never be able to download.

And what about the studios and record labels who make their livelihood off of content? The Swiss government doesn't have much to say to them in the report, other than that they have to “adapt to the changing consumer behavior.” The Swiss are basically saying that it's your fault, not ours.

Switzerland already has very lax piracy laws, and that's not going to change any time soon. Perhaps studios and record labels aren't losing quite as much as they would have us believe; they're just not making as much as they would like.

It looks like piracy remains perfectly legitimate -at least in Switzerland. So, is this the right move? Is it possible for content creators to remain profitable while coexisting with piracy? Tell us what you think on the Neowin Forums. Meanwhile, you can view the full report in all of its German glory right here.

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Main points discussed in this thread:

- "...Perhaps studios and record labels aren't losing quite as much as they would have us believe; they're just not making as much as they would like."
I truly think this is the case. It's what all the fuss is about.

- "If someone decides not to pay for copyrighted material, they would be stealing from the content creator"
No. The creator doesn't lose ANYTHING just because someone downloads pirated material.

- "The Swiss are basically saying that it's your fault, not ours."
Well it is, isn't it? People just need to get creative with their solutions. Look at the music industry and how much iTunes helped it. He was the most powerful man in music industry. He made paying a very small fee to download high quality MP3 files (and getting rid of DRM, by the way) the industry standard because it worked. Because it is brilliant. Same with Blizzard's newly released games and the monthly subscription system. (Although I don't really like the idea of not having the LAN game option... but that's another topic) For movies and TV shows, see Netflix.

- Switzerland is not a 3rd world country. Get your facts straight.
Direct democracy is the best type of democracy. It's a shame it simply cannot work in countries with much higher population.

You guys can keep your blindfolds, believing everything thrown on your way. Big companies get richer day by day. They will always make more than enough to be profitable, always. Even if pirating increases by 1000%, they will still make profit, which is good, I'm all for it! I just don't like their greed. Big companies always make a killing by i.e releasing a movie, and many people get richer in the process. It is the fear, that one day, they might be making less than a fortune, that drives this crazy idea.

I will keep pirating as long as actors get $20m per movie and singers goodness knows how much. But more importantly, the more action they take to prevent it, the more motivated I get to pirate.

skullo said,

I will keep pirating as long as actors get $20m per movie and singers goodness knows how much. But more importantly, the more action they take to prevent it, the more motivated I get to pirate.

Honestly, that depends on the movie/artist/actor. Most of the music I listen to, and some of the movies, they really aren't getting that rich. I'm happy to support what I like. Regardless of the companies, I have to support the artists, and hopefully some of it reaches then. That's what drives them to do more. If we stop paying, everything stops.

THolman said,

Honestly, that depends on the movie/artist/actor. Most of the music I listen to, and some of the movies, they really aren't getting that rich. I'm happy to support what I like. Regardless of the companies, I have to support the artists, and hopefully some of it reaches then. That's what drives them to do more. If we stop paying, everything stops.

Oh, so that's why no one ever makes music or does anything productive if they don't get paid...

Beaux said,
Oh, so that's why no one ever makes music or does anything productive if they don't get paid...

Well, there are plenty of artists who care about things other than money, but in order for them to get their work out there, they generally do need funds. It's just reality. Some of my favorite artists are people who have never really made tons of money, but that's besides the point.

Video games, and most movies, are all about profit, though. Not to say that the designers don't put soul and care into them, but they would never be able to pull it off without the higher ups, and that's all that they're after.

THolman said,

Well, there are plenty of artists who care about things other than money, but in order for them to get their work out there, they generally do need funds. It's just reality. Some of my favorite artists are people who have never really made tons of money, but that's besides the point.

No, it's not reality. It's the system we're currently living under, which is NOT inherent in reality.

Video games, and most movies, are all about profit, though. Not to say that the designers don't put soul and care into them, but they would never be able to pull it off without the higher ups, and that's all that they're after.
No, that's not all that they're after. Years ago, a whole team of video game developers left one of the biggest, most profitable video game companies in the world, just because the company wasn't letting them express their art how they wanted. They gave up their big paychecks for their art.

People often confuse piracy with counterfeiting or bootlegging.

If you are able to use the internet or copy a physical medium to acquire your new film without paying anyone then theres no money lost.

If you buy your movies from buddy down the street who has a bunch of silvers for $5, then there IS money lost - as someone would pay for that item. Same as if you download a movie and burn 20 copies to sell for profit....

Thats the difference.
Im curious the law on counterfeit goods or selling copyrighted works for profit. This is what needs to be fought.

As for tying up the courts with arguments based around IP addresses that have been proven very unreliable to track to a said individual, easily spoofed and wireless security that is incredibly insecure - why not fight the battle of gangs, rapes, robberies, murders, etc?

I am confused I guess on the companies or loosing money . If the person only has $500 to spend on entertainment, and spends it on entertainment, but then downloads $1000 pirated material. then all i see is the person getting $1000 more entertainment, because he would not be spending it on the entertainment anyway since he did not have it. The companies would never have gotten the money even if he had not pirated . You can not say the company lost money from this person AT ALL. you could say they gained maybe advertisement, because if the content was good he may tell others who MAY spend there money on it.

With all the total crap that the studios are putting out today. Piracy is what works. I will not pay the outlandish costs to go see a movie in the theater. Not until I download and watch it to see if it is worth my money or if it is crap. If it is good then I go see it, otherwise... I avoid WASTING my money on the crap they make.
I feel the biggest reason for a decline in pirated movies is Netflix. Why pirate when you can pay a set fee and watch it as often as you like? But the movie studios whine and complain because they want more profits to line their fat cat pockets.

The article doesn't mention, that although it is not illegal to download copyright protected material in switzerland, uploading it is. The argument was that most people can't distinguish legal download sources from illegal ones.

there are two sides to "Piracy" - the one that never gets mentioned is the gigantic marketing tool it provides giving unprecedented exposure for $0 - if a video, song or software is that good, a large percentage of "Pirates" will eventually buy it or purchase a legal subscription. Nobody will fork out money for mediocrity.

I have always been arguing that most of the people who pirate software wouldn't purchased it anyway - either because they can't afford it, can't justify spending money to buy it or don't really need it. Same with audio/video.

I wish more governments were as enlightened as the Swiss, but alas, even my own government's (the UK) copyright policies are effectively written by the BPI/IFPI/MPAA/RIAA et al.

Joey S said,
I wish more governments were as enlightened as the Swiss, but alas, even my own government's (the UK) copyright policies are effectively written by the BPI/IFPI/MPAA/RIAA et al.

Ah, the UK at least has an entertainment industry. Switzerland has not and this fact makes their statement almost worthless.

Swiss: Content creators may not be losing as much money as they say they are, but they're just not making as much profit as they'd like to. It's not the job of the Swiss government to tend to private corporation's greed.

Meanwhile in America....

US Senate: *gasp* Private multimedia corporations are not being greedily satisfied enough! Quick, we must pass anti-civilian-representative legislation on internet control to make sure that the companies are still on our side!

^---- And that, my friends, is why the US is called the "Land of the Free." </s>

+1
You're not alone my friend. The UK, France, and others are run by the copyright lobby/big business.

I think we can safely say, representative democracy no longer works in our respective countries. For if it did, policies would be designed to benefit the citizens, not the corporations.

Joey S said,
+1
You're not alone my friend. The UK, France, and others are run by the copyright lobby/big business.

I think we can safely say, representative democracy no longer works in our respective countries. For if it did, policies would be designed to benefit the citizens, not the corporations.

Where I live I don't think the politicians are corrupt and in the hands of the the media companies but just hugely naive and believe that they're doing it for the good of 'local industry'. The MPAA/RIAA have crafted their campaigns overseas in terms of 'protecting local industry and jobs' in much the same way in the US agricultural subsidies are marketed to the masses as helping the small family farm when in reality it is helping by industrial farms like Conagra.

Joey S said,

I think we can safely say, representative democracy no longer works in our respective countries. For if it did, policies would be designed to benefit the citizens, not the corporations.

Do you have a better solution?

THolman said,

Do you have a better solution?

Direct Democracy is slightly better, albeit still imperfect. The ultimate solution is to have no government at all.

Joey S said,

Direct Democracy is slightly better, albeit still imperfect. The ultimate solution is to have no government at all.

Good point, 7 billon people would much better off unregulated and bartering their way with no standard currency or protection. Brilliant.

Joey S said,

Direct Democracy is slightly better, albeit still imperfect. The ultimate solution is to have no government at all.

The problem with direct democracy is that you end up with the majorities ruling everything. Generally, that's not really a good thing. And I don't just mean for ethnic minorities; religious, regional, whatever.

As for no government... I don't think so.

so typical of third world countries, rules and laws can be bent as long as it doesn't affect their assets. I say the creators of media content need to add their losses to media pricetag they sell to Switzerland. Since they have gone official with a statement now medica creators can be official about increasing the pricetag on media to that country.

trashoner said,
so typical of third world countries, rules and laws can be bent as long as it doesn't affect their assets. I say the creators of media content need to add their losses to media pricetag they sell to Switzerland. Since they have gone official with a statement now medica creators can be official about increasing the pricetag on media to that country.

Maybe not increase prices but make content not directed at them: movies and TV shows will no longer have Swiss dubs or subtitles.

trashoner said,
so typical of third world countries, rules and laws can be bent as long as it doesn't affect their assets. I say the creators of media content need to add their losses to media pricetag they sell to Switzerland. Since they have gone official with a statement now medica creators can be official about increasing the pricetag on media to that country.

mh.. unlike other countries, Swiss people can actually vote on laws ... third world country... ha.. my golden Swiss ass... ;-)

dpro said,

mh.. unlike other countries, Swiss people can actually vote on laws ... third world country... ha.. my golden Swiss ass... ;-)

Ah that explains it then. Direct democracy clearly works then. Now we just need to do away with representative democracy and adopt a more rational model of government like the Swiss.

PeterTHX said,

Maybe not increase prices but make content not directed at them: movies and TV shows will no longer have Swiss dubs or subtitles.


Subtitles??? Swiss - at least the German speaking part - gets it's dubs directly from Germany as does Austria…

This ignores the topic of ethics and is a dangerous precedent. While I don't disagree with their findings in the context of digital content, where there is no actual loss of resources (assuming consumers would not buy the product regardless), it's still stealing.

thornz0 said,
it's still stealing.

it's impossible to deprive someone else of the said item when it can be duplicated ad infinitum at near zero cost, therefore it can't be deemed stealing:

Stealing
Verb: Take (another person's property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it: "thieves stole her bicycle".

That's why they call it copyright infringement. It's all about monopolising the right to reproduce the said work. In the modern digital world though, it's a obsolete notion

If something is created by someone else and they do not give you permission to use it, and you do, then its stealing. It's irrelevant in what medium it is.

thornz0 said,
If something is created by someone else and they do not give you permission to use it, and you do, then its stealing. It's irrelevant in what medium it is.

Their property is not being changed, taken, or denied. Only the bits on my physical property, the hard drive, are flipped to match their bits. Therefore, a copyright infringement is about a third party laying claim to someone's property just because it matches theirs, not because theirs is missing.

If I were to speak aloud the long string of bits that forms a copyrighted mp3 and you were to input them into a computer, that would be copyright infringement. Thus, nullifying freedom of speech.

If someone wears a blue t-shirt and black pants and then another person copies that same outfit, is that stealing? Call that a ridiculous example, but where exactly does the line get drawn? The current line is, in fact, arbitrary.

Edited by nvllsvm, Dec 4 2011, 7:00am :

Draje said,

Their property is not being changed, taken, or denied. Only the bits on my physical property, the hard drive, are flipped to match their bits. Therefore, a copyright infringement is about a third party laying claim to someone's property just because it matches theirs, not because theirs is missing.

If I were to speak aloud the long string of bits that forms a copyrighted mp3 and you were to input them into a computer, that would be copyright infringement. Thus, nullifying freedom of speech.

If someone wears a blue t-shirt and black pants and then another person copies that same outfit, is that stealing? Call that a ridiculous example, but where exactly does the line get drawn? The current line is, in fact, arbitrary.

Is it arbitrary if the content you spent months/years to create is suddenly duplicated by the millions and you don't receive anything for your labor, especially when you were counting on that income to create more or different creations? Meanwhile you have bills to pay as well, but no money's coming in because some knucklehead on the internet thinks piracy doesn't hurt anyone. How many more independent game studios have to close before people get a clue?

Edited by PeterTHX, Dec 6 2011, 12:48am :

giantpotato said,
Makes sense for the Swiss, by pirating their money stays in the country, instead of getting sent to America.

Yeah and in a few years we probably have to help China send rice and medicine to the US because they went bankrupt without those billions the Swiss would spend on US entertainment

most movies now make enough off of opening theater week to be considered a success. hollywood doesn't lose that much money off of piracy because physical copies arent being stolen, just shared. then if the movie deserves it, the pirates will go out, buy physical copies, and then hollywood makes even more money. see it happen all the time. moreso with video games, but movies, music etc same idea. not all pirates are out to get free stuff and leave. some just want to watch and see if it's good before they spend 30+ dollars on a bluray/dvd combo pack. also the price of admission at the movie theater is ridiculous and should be boycotted. over 10 bucks just for the ticket, then at LEAST 4 bucks per soda is crazy. that's what drives most pirates to "sampling" XD

Lorddresefer said,
most movies now make enough off of opening theater week to be considered a success. hollywood doesn't lose that much money off of piracy because physical copies arent being stolen, just shared. then if the movie deserves it, the pirates will go out, buy physical copies, and then hollywood makes even more money. see it happen all the time. moreso with video games, but movies, music etc same idea. not all pirates are out to get free stuff and leave. some just want to watch and see if it's good before they spend 30+ dollars on a bluray/dvd combo pack. also the price of admission at the movie theater is ridiculous and should be boycotted. over 10 bucks just for the ticket, then at LEAST 4 bucks per soda is crazy. that's what drives most pirates to "sampling" XD

Stop making ignorant excuses for piracy.

For one thing, you complain about food prices at the theater: that pays for the theater to stay open and pay employees. Studios don't get a dime of that.

Theater admission prices, adjusted for inflation, have remained relatively consistent.

As far as "sampling" goes there's a little thing called RENTING.

PeterTHX said,

Stop making ignorant excuses for piracy.

For one thing, you complain about food prices at the theater: that pays for the theater to stay open and pay employees. Studios don't get a dime of that.

Theater admission prices, adjusted for inflation, have remained relatively consistent.

As far as "sampling" goes there's a little thing called RENTING.

When our salaries and paychecks are finally adjusted for inflation, I might stop pirating. Companies can keep raising their prices, but they refuse to raise what they pay their workers. That is all over the board in almost every sector, except the sectors that are already basically rigged to win.
Since stuff keeps going up in price, but pay remains the same, they can't hardly expect everyone to keep the same pace up.
I like to use my flawed logic for this... I pay for cable service, I pay for Netflix and Hulu. Basically every movie made will be shown on these at sometime, so I might as well just download it now and watch it, save myself some time. The companies are already getting my money through these services, but I'm dictating how I want to use it. As I said, It's my flawed logic

shakey said,

When our salaries and paychecks are finally adjusted for inflation, I might stop pirating. Companies can keep raising their prices, but they refuse to raise what they pay their workers.

EXCEPT IN THE ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY. The actors, artists, writers, etc. are always getting more and more and that adds to the cost of a film/album/TV show.

You must be happy getting crap because that's why we see endless sequels and remakes. The studios will no longer risk money on originals that might fail or make so little money it's not worth making. Music is getting worse. Why make new stuff if people will just steal it?

You really like the state of the PC market? It's dying because of piracy. Independent and innovative small game studios are being shut down because they can't make money on a release to pay for their talent and facilities.

Flawed logic = just keep killing the golden goose.

PeterTHX said,

EXCEPT IN THE ENTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY. The actors, artists, writers, etc. are always getting more and more and that adds to the cost of a film/album/TV show.

You must be happy getting crap because that's why we see endless sequels and remakes. The studios will no longer risk money on originals that might fail or make so little money it's not worth making. Music is getting worse. Why make new stuff if people will just steal it?

You really like the state of the PC market? It's dying because of piracy. Independent and innovative small game studios are being shut down because they can't make money on a release to pay for their talent and facilities.

Flawed logic = just keep killing the golden goose.

Music getting worse? Na, only what they play on the radio and tv. If you would listen to local and underground bands, you would find a lot better than what is being put into the public eye. Rhymesayers is a perfect example of some of the best music around, with little to no publicity given to them.
Movies getting worse? That is opinion. We could also say that with how many movies have been produced, that we are just running out of original content that "wows" us. There are other mediums of entertainment that are still producing great stories, such as foreign movies and anime/manga.
PC market dieing? Not in the slightest. If you can show proof of that, I would change my mind, but Valve, Blizzard, and many others will gladly show otherwise that the PC market is dieing.
A golden goose? You just stated how you thought everything was bad and dieing... that sir, is no golden goose.

Lorddresefer said,
most movies now make enough off of opening theater week to be considered a success. hollywood doesn't lose that much money off of piracy because physical copies arent being stolen, just shared. then if the movie deserves it, the pirates will go out, buy physical copies, and then hollywood makes even more money. see it happen all the time. moreso with video games, but movies, music etc same idea. not all pirates are out to get free stuff and leave. some just want to watch and see if it's good before they spend 30+ dollars on a bluray/dvd combo pack. also the price of admission at the movie theater is ridiculous and should be boycotted. over 10 bucks just for the ticket, then at LEAST 4 bucks per soda is crazy. that's what drives most pirates to "sampling" XD

The solution is actually stop paying actors $100million for a single movie.

shakey said,

PC market dieing? Not in the slightest. If you can show proof of that, I would change my mind, but Valve, Blizzard, and many others will gladly show otherwise that the PC market is dieing.

Dude, you can't even spell "dying" correctly.

All the big games are console based now. The PC market is getting hit from 3 sides now: consoles as the development platform with sloppy PC ports as the result...Smartphone games like "Angry Birds"...and piracy. Blizzard makes their money from cloud based micro-transactions and subscriptions: things that are pretty much impossible to pirate. Even then, due to piracy upcoming games like "Diablo III" require an always on internet connection.

PeterTHX said,

You must be happy getting crap because that's why we see endless sequels and remakes. The studios will no longer risk money on originals that might fail or make so little money it's not worth making. Music is getting worse. Why make new stuff if people will just steal it?

Utter nonsense. Do you seriously think the money men at the movie studios wouldn't be making these cash-in sequels/remakes if there was no piracy? It's got nothing to do with piracy it's got everything to do with money.

And people whine far too much about sequels and remakes. There are still plenty of original films being made all over the world. And if you think music is getting worse then perhaps you are out of touch.

I think it's ironic how piracy can be considered by some as a crippling unethical act and yet it is essentially just mass sharing.

PeterTHX said,

You must be happy getting crap because that's why we see endless sequels and remakes. The studios will no longer risk money on originals that might fail or make so little money it's not worth making. Music is getting worse. Why make new stuff if people will just steal it?

What complete NONSENSE. You're going to blame piracy for crappy movies? What about television?? AMC for instance has started making new television series that are quite different from anything else we see on TV. Walking Dead, Hell on Wheels, Breaking Bad... That's just a very minor example. How is it that television series are staying successful at creating interesting content while movies are falling flat? Also, I'm pretty sure people are tired of spending money on crappy sequels and remakes, not that there are crappy sequels and remakes BECAUSE of piracy. You don't have to be a genius to see that terrible sequels were quite prevalent in the past, before the internet made piracy easy...

Also, you're really going to use MUSIC as an example? I may not be content with today's music, but any person who's been around for just a bit can see that many of these kids grow up enjoying the music of their generation, only to hate everything new that comes out around the age of 18-20, clinging to the things they grew up with. That just can't be helped, and trying to use it as an example against piracy just boggles my mind.

I say that not because I'm incapable of understanding that someone would actually believe this nonsense, but that you, PeterTHX, are the one spouting it. I've always thought you to be a more logical person but right now you're just proving to me that piracy has also ruined your posts...

dead.cell said,
I say that not because I'm incapable of understanding that someone would actually believe this nonsense, but that you, PeterTHX, are the one spouting it. I've always thought you to be a more logical person but right now you're just proving to me that piracy has also ruined your posts...

However you feel, there is no excuse for piracy especially when the "legit" media is relatively cheap and available. Nobody has a right to "entertainment". The providers who do pay to make the entertainment and the talent involved deserve some kind of compensation. These days when somebody can just clone a perfect digital copy and upload it to the internet is NOT the same as the piracy problems pre-1999 (or so).

And it is killing the PC gaming market, despite some who think it isn't. Been watching it for 25 years now, it's like post-crash 1985 again...except now for the PC instead of the Atari 2600.

PeterTHX said,
However you feel, there is no excuse for piracy especially when the "legit" media is relatively cheap and available. Nobody has a right to "entertainment". The providers who do pay to make the entertainment and the talent involved deserve some kind of compensation. These days when somebody can just clone a perfect digital copy and upload it to the internet is NOT the same as the piracy problems pre-1999 (or so).

And it is killing the PC gaming market, despite some who think it isn't. Been watching it for 25 years now, it's like post-crash 1985 again...except now for the PC instead of the Atari 2600.

However you feel, there is no excuse for trying to criminalize sharing, and trying to make people pay for an outdated distribution model.

The copyright industry is killing culture.

Beaux said,
However you feel, there is no excuse for trying to criminalize sharing, and trying to make people pay for an outdated distribution model.

It is criminal to steal what others created without permission. Period. "Outdated distribution model"? Physical media is still almost always of higher quality than downloads and streaming.

The copyright industry is killing culture.

You're perfectly able to share all the content you've created YOURSELF.

Don't call allowing others to clone copyrighted works "sharing", because it's not. Because it exists doesn't give you the right to have it.

PeterTHX said,

It is criminal to steal what others created without permission. Period. "Outdated distribution model"? Physical media is still almost always of higher quality than downloads and streaming.


You're perfectly able to share all the content you've created YOURSELF.

Don't call allowing others to clone copyrighted works "sharing", because it's not. Because it exists doesn't give you the right to have it.

The word "steal" doesn't fit into this discussion at all. Stealing is removing an object from someone's possesion so they don't have it any more.

The only reason physical media is higher quality, is because the general public has been brainwashed by your idea of "stealing".

Don't call allowing others to clone copyrighted works "stealing", because it's not.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard yet. So... I have $500.00 to spend on entertainment, but I download $1000.00 worth of pirated stuff, then still go spend my $500.00. So someone is still out $1000.00.

Tuishimi said,
That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard yet. So... I have $500.00 to spend on entertainment, but I download $1000.00 worth of pirated stuff, then still go spend my $500.00. So someone is still out $1000.00.

Makes more sense then claiming to have received nothing.

Digitalx said,

Makes more sense then claiming to have received nothing.

right.. i know not everyone downloads illegally some of them buy... talking about livinghood they 're not dying they're living luxurious life

Tuishimi said,
That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard yet. So... I have $500.00 to spend on entertainment, but I download $1000.00 worth of pirated stuff, then still go spend my $500.00. So someone is still out $1000.00.

That makes no sense. If you pirated $1000 worth of stuff you would have $1000 saved because you didn't spend it on legit products.

Stop, read, read again, get it right.

Someone IS out $1000, sort of but not really because that is an accumulated sum, eg a game from NZ costs around $80-$110 which is a small fraction of the $1k stated. Part of that 80-110 is GST (15%) part of it goes to the store which sold it to cover services/rent/pay etc. Some of it goes to producing the product (disk packaging) and more goes to using the licensed material eg if it was stored on a CD (copyright to sony)

So after you take of GST, store costs, licensing rights for storage media and packaging you get down to what the product itself is worth because if you pirated it all those things are bypassed. The final sum i presume is around 20-40 dollars (may be less tho, this is an estimate)

Tuishimi said,
That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard yet. So... I have $500.00 to spend on entertainment, but I download $1000.00 worth of pirated stuff, then still go spend my $500.00. So someone is still out $1000.00.

That makes no sense. If you pirated $1000 worth of stuff you would have $1000 saved because you didn't spend it on legit products.

Stop, read, read again, get it right.

Someone IS out $1000, sort of but not really because that is an accumulated sum, eg a game from NZ costs around $80-$110 which is a small fraction of the $1k stated. Part of that 80-110 is GST (15%) part of it goes to the store which sold it to cover services/rent/pay etc. Some of it goes to producing the product (disk packaging) and more goes to using the licensed material eg if it was stored on a CD (copyright to sony)

So after you take of GST, store costs, licensing rights for storage media and packaging you get down to what the product itself is worth because if you pirated it all those things are bypassed. The final sum i presume is around 20-40 dollars (may be less tho, this is an estimate)

Auzeras said,

That makes no sense. If you pirated $1000 worth of stuff you would have $1000 saved because you didn't spend it on legit products.

Stop, read, read again, get it right.

Someone IS out $1000, sort of but not really because that is an accumulated sum, eg a game from NZ costs around $80-$110 which is a small fraction of the $1k stated. Part of that 80-110 is GST (15%) part of it goes to the store which sold it to cover services/rent/pay etc. Some of it goes to producing the product (disk packaging) and more goes to using the licensed material eg if it was stored on a CD (copyright to sony)

So after you take of GST, store costs, licensing rights for storage media and packaging you get down to what the product itself is worth because if you pirated it all those things are bypassed. The final sum i presume is around 20-40 dollars (may be less tho, this is an estimate)

Well to add to that most artists actually make from sales are in double digit cents per song so even you pirate their music 1000 times over that only about $100-200 in lost sales not to mention most mainstream artists who are generally targeted by pirates are bank rolled by music labels to tune of (hundreds of) thousands so there's nothing even remotely personal with them to be interfered with.

On top of that pirating vs shop items is the only thing losing money is the supply chain as you stated in which case as with history if you don't adapt then you get left behind so it's their fault anyhow.

So until they decide to become consumer and artist friendly then of course pirating will continue and the Swiss are right about benefiting from the rest which IS better then claiming you've got nothing in return due to it if someone buys a $15-20 band t shirt instead of their CD then there's an example of trading one off for the other.

Tuishimi said,
That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard yet. So... I have $500.00 to spend on entertainment, but I download $1000.00 worth of pirated stuff, then still go spend my $500.00. So someone is still out $1000.00.
Note likely. As an example, I have probably downloaded millions of dollars of content as a kid. But now that I am in College, and I'm actually participating in the market, I find myself paying more and more for content, simply because it is convenient. So in short, you cannot say just because you pirate x amount of content, that that person would have bought it anyway, the firm didn't lose any money on it.

PotatoJ said,
Note likely. As an example, I have probably downloaded millions of dollars of content as a kid. But now that I am in College, and I'm actually participating in the market, I find myself paying more and more for content, simply because it is convenient. So in short, you cannot say just because you pirate x amount of content, that that person would have bought it anyway, the firm didn't lose any money on it.

^ This!

PotatoJ said,
Note likely. As an example, I have probably downloaded millions of dollars of content as a kid. But now that I am in College, and I'm actually participating in the market, I find myself paying more and more for content, simply because it is convenient. So in short, you cannot say just because you pirate x amount of content, that that person would have bought it anyway, the firm didn't lose any money on it.

Yea, I think its good to have an ethic that you buy content if you have the money to buy it. But my guess is, by and large, most people act that way already, and the vast majority of people who pirate are either people who can't buy the games or don't want to buy the games, so don't end up costing the content producers any money. Really, if you earn a decent wage, spending $60 every so often on a game will not be a big deal. I doubt many people treat it as a big deal, and go and pirates games they would buy even if they have cash lying around.

Tuishimi said,
That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard yet. So... I have $500.00 to spend on entertainment, but I download $1000.00 worth of pirated stuff, then still go spend my $500.00. So someone is still out $1000.00.

The estimations are always BS in the end because it automatically assumes that if the pirated version didn't exist that every downloader would buy it - I know many people who use a pirated version of Photoshop but if push came to shove they would use Paint.net if there was no other option.

Tuishimi said,
That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard yet. So... I have $500.00 to spend on entertainment, but I download $1000.00 worth of pirated stuff, then still go spend my $500.00. So someone is still out $1000.00.

But what you pirate, buy anyway, so they are not at a loss.

Tuishimi said,
That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard yet. So... I have $500.00 to spend on entertainment, but I download $1000.00 worth of pirated stuff, then still go spend my $500.00. So someone is still out $1000.00.

And because of this, movie stars are having to wait years before buying the next sports car, musicians are sleeping rough, because this new-fangled technology is DESTROYING their industry just like audio casettes have murdered radio, and home VHS tapes have slaughtered cinema! Software developers are stealing just to keep their families fed, because people NEVER pirated floppy discs or optical media!

Oh wait.

This has been going on for approximately a decade and the worst thing for all of the above was the credit crunch. Now wonder what to say in return and call me out for an inevitable typo or grammar mistake, I dare ya XD

Edit: And Hollywood would probably do well to remember that they were once underdogs, 'pirates' until the greed and lack of inspiration took over.

Tuishimi said,
That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard yet. So... I have $500.00 to spend on entertainment, but I download $1000.00 worth of pirated stuff, then still go spend my $500.00. So someone is still out $1000.00.
That's like saying I'm out $1000.00 because people use other napkins instead of buying my $1000.00 napkin.

with all the money Swiss make one would have thought they wouldnt mind paying for software and media instead of stealing

guru said,
with all the money Swiss make one would have thought they wouldnt mind paying for software and media instead of stealing

think the Swiss is trying to make amends with real people after stealing from them all these years.

PatrynXX said,

think the Swiss is trying to make amends with real people after stealing from them all these years.

Yeah... I just robbed a tourist yesterday... shame he was from the US and just had a pocket full of debts because he let his bosses and the ""elected"" government (oh yeah, your two parties would both be considered right-winged populists in most of Europe) take all his money....

guru said,
with all the money Swiss make one would have thought they wouldnt mind paying for software and media instead of stealing

piracy is not stealing!

guru said,
with all the money Swiss make one would have thought they wouldnt mind paying for software and media instead of stealing

Did you read the article . . . ?

guru said,
with all the money Swiss make one would have thought they wouldnt mind paying for software and media instead of stealing
It said that they don't mind paying, and there's nothing here about stealing. Your entire comment is extremely ignorant.

dpro said,

Yeah... I just robbed a tourist yesterday... shame he was from the US and just had a pocket full of debts because he let his bosses and the ""elected"" government (oh yeah, your two parties would both be considered right-winged populists in most of Europe) take all his money....

If he was a tourist maybe he was broke because he spent all his money on accommodation, travel insurance, plane tickets, tour guides, etc etc

Swiss banking, Swiss watches, Swiss neutrality, Switzerland not being a part of EU. And now this? Could it really be possible that there's some reasonable people left over there?

cralias said,
Swiss banking, Swiss watches, Swiss neutrality, Switzerland not being a part of EU. And now this? Could it really be possible that there's some reasonable people left over there?

Please. Reason has nothing to do with it. The article already states the Swiss are clueless over breaking the law.

Switzerland has no entertainment industry so it's perfectly fine for them. They have nothing to lose.

cralias said,
Swiss banking, Swiss watches, Swiss neutrality, Switzerland not being a part of EU. And now this? Could it really be possible that there's some reasonable people left over there?

I truly don't get it... I can't think of a smarter PROSPER "Nation" as Switzerland is. Every country would like to be in Switzerland's position. Sure, their banking system ain't transparent at all and they benefit a lot, but this is a job for all other European Nations to apply some policy against. Also, seemingly at least, they woke up and complain many about Islamism. They want to be the only ones who will enjoy "effortesly" ( not generalisation ) the benefits. I like 'em!

cralias said,
Swiss banking, Swiss watches, Swiss neutrality, Switzerland not being a part of EU. And now this? Could it really be possible that there's some reasonable people left over there?

yeah it's a shame we're not in the EU, since they're doing so well... And it's also a shame that we're not a borderline third world state controlled by some big companies like our dear friends in Northern America where only the literacy rate is lower than the unemployment rate... there are many things wrong here, like in every country, but come on you probably live in the US... oh well maybe you could privatize the government... that would get things done!

PeterTHX said,

Please. Reason has nothing to do with it. The article already states the Swiss are clueless over breaking the law.

No we just produce chocolate and cheese here... only for the US, and like all the universe, we revolve around the united states....

Switzerland has no entertainment industry so it's perfectly fine for them. They have nothing to lose.

cralias said,
Swiss banking, Swiss watches, Swiss neutrality, Switzerland not being a part of EU. And now this? Could it really be possible that there's some reasonable people left over there?

Swiss chocolate, Swiss cheese,

PeterTHX said,
Please. Reason has nothing to do with it. The article already states the Swiss are clueless over breaking the law.

Switzerland has no entertainment industry so it's perfectly fine for them. They have nothing to lose.

You do read, don't you:

As much as a third of Swiss over 15 regularly pirate music, movies and games.

It isn't just music, it also includes software as well - last time I checked the Swiss so have some software companies of their own, I'd also hazard to guess that they have their own local music industry which is hit harder by piracy than large multi-national corporations operating out of America.

dpro said,
come on you probably live in the US... oh well maybe you could privatize the government... that would get things done!

Quite the opposite in fact. I'm from post-USSR. So I'm jelly of nearly every more advanced country there is.

PeterTHX said,
Please. Reason has nothing to do with it. The article already states the Swiss are clueless over breaking the law.
And the U.S. has a clue about breaking the law, right?

The Swiss charged Bush with war crimes as everyone should, but in the U.S. we just ignore the laws.

Beaux said,
And the U.S. has a clue about breaking the law, right?

The Swiss charged Bush with war crimes as everyone should, but in the U.S. we just ignore the laws.

As everyone should? Don't start a political argument.

PeterTHX said,

As everyone should? Don't start a political argument.

You said "The swiss are clueless about breaking the law." How is that not political.

My statement is not any more political. It's just a statement on who upholds the rule of law and who doesn't, just like your comment.