Report: Microsoft and PC OEMs privately debate causes of slow Windows 8 PC sales

Later today, Microsoft is scheduled to announce its financial results for the final quarter of 2012. Just a few hours before that highly anticipated event, there are reports that Microsoft has privately been complaining that PC makers did not do a good job with releasing new Windows 8-based touchscreen tablets and PCs during that quarter.

The Register reports, via unnamed but "well-placed" sources, that Microsoft gave advice to PC OEMs on the kinds of hardware it would like to see inside Windows 8 products for the launch of its latest OS. However, the story claims that Microsoft is not happy that there were enough of these touchscreen PCs to go around.

It quotes one unnamed source as saying:

Microsoft is very frustrated with major OEMs who didn't build nearly enough touch systems and are now struggling to find parts and ramp up. Microsoft says they provided very specific guidance on what to build.

There is evidence that PC makers could not make enough Windows 8 products to meet demand. Dell and Lenovo had a number of Windows 8 touchscreen laptops and tablets in place for the launch of the OS but their systems suffered from shipment times that stretched out several weeks.

However, the article also says PC makers have talked to Microsoft, saying that if they have followed Microsoft's advice, their Windows 8 tablets and notebooks would have been too expensive and thus would have sat on store shelves. We should learn a lot more about sales of Windows 8 later today and it will be interesting to see if Microsoft puts any kind of spin on those results.

Source: The Register | Image via Asus

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Microsoft, shut up and bring your Surface with Windows 8 Pro to Singapore. Period.

Never look at other devices since its debut.

tkaw220 said,
Microsoft, shut up and bring your Surface with Windows 8 Pro to Singapore. Period.

Never look at other devices since its debut.


Exactly. MS may be frustrated at their OEM's, but I think this is absolutely the wrong opportunity for Microsoft to point fingers with their OWN hardware having shipping problems.

It should be not surprise. Windows-8 is competing in an already crowded consumer field with Apple and smartphone vendors. Businesses and serious consumer users certainly, are not embracing it and sticking with Windows-7.

TsarNikky said,
It should be not surprise. Windows-8 is competing in an already crowded consumer field with Apple and smartphone vendors. Businesses and serious consumer users certainly, are not embracing it and sticking with Windows-7.

Nice to see a smart comment once in a while...

Though I would like to point out that businesses never "embrace" a new OS. Many still stick to XP... Jumping on an early train can have all sorts of difficulties for businesses...

On the "serious consumers" part I would disagree. There are many of us who upgraded right away, and don't look back for a second. For me and many of my friends/colleagues, Windows 7 now just seems too old (like how it was in the Win7 days if we had to work on XP).
But obviously there are also those who don't like W8 for one reason or another...

This ones easy... there weren't any touch first tablets to be seen in most UK retails stores. Flood the market at every size & price point

I'm using Windows 8 on my main desktop system and like it. However, I'm in a very small minority it seems.

I think it's time for Microsoft to face the truth. The vast majority doesn't want the change they're forcing and they need to leave the existing desktop alone. I understand the need for a tablet play, but maybe its not the best approach to force it on everything.

I also think that a large majority of people want nothing but the cheapest hardware their budget allows and won't be sold on anything fancier.

I'll now put on my flame retardant suit and prepere to do battle with the trollers.

Don't mistake a vocal minority for a silent majority. Users I've moved to Windows 8 are right at home w/i a day or so and frankly, they like using the metro apps for their bull****.

MrHumpty said,
...

Agree.
Most people who don't like something about a product feel the need to complain about it (sometimes there are valid reasons for it, but a lot of times not), while those happy with their products rarely go through the trouble to comment/review.
Same thing with everything: new Windows, new peace of hardware or whatever...
And the "majority don't like it" illusion is born. The "beuty" of the internet...

MrHumpty said,
Don't mistake a vocal minority for a silent majority. Users I've moved to Windows 8 are right at home w/i a day or so and frankly, they like using the metro apps for their bull****.

It's tough to tell really who's little world more closely resembles the majority. Between my friends and I, we are making some good cash downgrading people back to Win7 because that is what people we know want.

Does that mean the haters are correct? Or does it mean that older people "who don't like change" (many of which are people I deal with) truly don't like change? Does it mean that I live in that one area where all the haters live? Or does it mean something else entirely?

MrHumpty said,
Don't mistake a vocal minority for a silent majority.

Clearly, the sales figures directly counter your position. The silent majority you speak of is voting with their wallets and they are not buying into Windows 8 on the desktop.

excalpius said,

Clearly, the sales figures directly counter your position. The silent majority you speak of is voting with their wallets and they are not buying into Windows 8 on the desktop.

I wouldn't be so sure about that (not saying that I'm 100% right... time will tell).

Anyway, judging by sales figures, "windows 8 outpaced windows 7 in early upgrades". That's gotta be something: Windows 7 was the most successful OS, the PC market is in a strong decline for years... (that "argument" about "most licences are sold to OEM's" is just ridiculous, since those numbers were included in any other Windows sales report before, or any OS in general)...

The Windows 8 PC's not selling as much as hoped for shouldn't be confused with Win8 doesn't sell... Many were kinda hoping that "Windows 8 will re-kindle the PC sales". Unrealistic imo...
Most people just don't need a full blown PC... so they buy tablets.
Many have perfectly fine PC's that cover all their needs, so they don't upgrade. Even I bought a new laptop 2 years ago, and a new desktop maybe 7 months ago... there is no way I'll upgrade again shortly.

I don't see were not liking Windows 8 could come in with PC sales. As many like to mention, the average Joe doesn't follow new tech releases or such. If they need a new PC, they go to the store and buy one, without even asking what version of Windows runs on it (most have no idea what that would even mean)...

The potential downgrade requests would speak against W8 (I heard of none yet around here... doesn't need to mean anything tho), but I'm quit sure that many of those could easily be avoided with just a little bit of consumer "education" (just show the customers quickly how it all works).

excalpius said,
Clearly, the sales figures directly counter your position. The silent majority you speak of is voting with their wallets and they are not buying into Windows 8 on the desktop.
I won't argue the sales numbes. Although, I will continue using my intellect to further analyze the situtation. Major factors include, when Windows 7 came out, what everybody compares this rollout to, desktop tech was still advancing quite quickly. Many were still on XP due to poor driver handling of many companies at the launch of Vista, that combined with the FUD surrouding Vista caused everybody to wait for 7. People replaced computers much like they do the phones of today.

Now, in Windows 8 land you're not seeing many people replacing their machines every 2-3 years. I'm on my 4th year of my two custom workstations. I'll be replacing them both later this year. Previously, as they are my main source of revenue for my household, I replaced them, in full, every 2 years. Since people aren't buying new machines, they aren't getting into Windows 8 as quickly. In like manner, it's not normal to do in place upgrades within Windows. So doing an in place upgrade is something people will tip-toe into. That is happening. And the 7->8 upgrade works nicely. I went Vista->7->8 just recently and it worked great on my primary workstation.

So, yes. If I limited the scope of my analsis to just sales figures like a journalist or a kid or someone with bias. You're right. But, I choose to use a few more synapses and see the whole picture and realize that Windows 8 is a success.

More importantly, I've rolled it out to to plenty of users who have been fed the FUD. After a few days, they are off and running playing Angry Birds and all the other crap.

Condere said,
It's tough to tell really who's little world more closely resembles the majority. Between my friends and I, we are making some good cash downgrading people back to Win7 because that is what people we know want
My experience has been the opposite. In fact, most have simply asked me for advise on new features etc. My only compliant about Windows 8 at this point is they need a full blown tutorial front and center on the start screen and desktop for every new user. IMO, you'd be better off being paid to explain the OS seeing as it runs significantly better than Windows 7. But, if that's what people want, you're welcome to take their cash... lord knows there are still plenty of poorly informed people running Windows XP so it's not without precedent that users just dont' know what's best for them in my eyes.

Windows 8 has completely bombed with consumers, people just don't like metro and want nothing to do with it.
In their defense however they should be upset that there are not enough touchscreens coming out since that is really the only place windows 8/metro is usable or worth anything.

Tons of your posts here, and all are pretty much bull****...
You, and a small number of others, can't accept any change, and are flaming on the internet about how "the new thing sucks". Unfortunately, all that rent has quite a bit of influence on a lot of non-tech people (can't blame them, if you see tons of comments that something sucks, it's easy to fall for it)...

It's fascinating how much hate a few people can spread... and how much influence it has...

Meanwhile, smart people enjoy their new tech (or maybe just stick to what they have, because they really don't need to upgrade their system yet)...

@nenki31,

99% of computer users are not SMART technologists. These users are the ones rejecting Windows 8 on the desktop for all the reasons myself and others have been saying for years now.

You only seem to see the world through your own eyes. Those of us that correctly predicted Windows 8 would be the "New Coke" of operating systems have been seeing things through the eyes of the general population.

excalpius said,
You only seem to see the world through your own eyes.

Not really true. I installed Win8 on a bunch of PC's, for a bunch of people. The fact that "I" installed it for them speaks for itself. As of yet, none of them had any complaints, or wanted Win7 back...

My parents for example pretty much never use the PC (occasional skype, and maybe read some news on pre-bookmarked sites). I had to show them how to send an e-mail for more times than I can remember - no english knowledge whatsoever, no computer "expertise"... I installed W8 for them, set everything up as it was before (you know, some shortcuts on the desktop and such, to be familiar), and gave them a 2 min "tutorial" (click here to get to desktop, click here to open skype, here are your photos...). Last weekend when I visited, my mom wanted to show me some web sites she found, in the Modern UI (before, I had to write a script for her to automatically open a website with some results that requires log-in... she couldn't open gmail if it asked for the password...).

Anyway, no, I don't "only see the world through my own eyes". Everyone who is willing to give W8 a try can get used to it quickly... The problem isn't there at all.

MS did make a mistake for not including a short "get started" guide (like in previous versions of windows, or any other of their products)... That "guide" would just need to show the hidden features in corners, and a few other "important" things. Just assuming that everyone will "figure it out" or have someone to show them how to wasn't a good move...

Although that wouldn't solve the negative press problem, that's a whole different beast and has nothing to do with usability or anything like that...

The main problem are these factors:

Press and lack of understanding.

MOST of the people who complain are those who have been influenced by the Press and /or have "raged quit" using the OS after they couldn't figure out how to do the basic task they were used to.

From the dozens of videos from YouTube, I only see people complaining about stuff you can do in Windows 8, but in a different manner. Henceforth, bashing the OS and saying how crap it is.

Don't be ridiculous. Your comments ONLY refer to people who are techno-literate like those here on Neowin.

99% of computer users don't understand Windows 8 right out of the box and that is an EPIC FAIL for a modern GUI-based interface.

NO ONE likes or needs touch screens on the desktop as more than a novelty for a few minutes. It's uncomfortable and offers no advantage to the user or productivity.

Touch is for tablets and phones because they are on hand devices. It's as simple as that.

Like someone said before, they changed too much too fast, and caused resentment and confusion. To top it off, like someone else said, they were trying to fix something that no one thought was broken. I really like Microsoft stuff, I'm a Windows developer, so I'm not an Apple fan boy.

That being said, I think Apple really struck the right balance here. Now was there a way of knowing this before hand? In Apple's case, no. They were the first company to really introduce a mobile OS based on the underpinnings of their desktop OS. In Microsoft's case however, yes. Yes because for Microsoft they had the benefit of Apple's example-- and they should have knew better. I can almost be certain that there was a war at Microsoft over this. Apple's example is that you slowly pull in nice touch features, motifs from your touch OS to the desktop OS when they are appropriate and feel right. Not to force them down the throats of your user in a weird and confusing way. That never works. Apple understood (and Microsoft should have recognized) that the tablet experience is completely different from the desktop experience.

IMHO there was one fatal mistake they made that caused 99% of the complaints and confusion. Windows had an ingenious and universally recognizable UI device in the Start Menu's "Start Button". Everyone knew what it was. The irony is that they didn't get rid of it-- they just made it occupy the lower 1x1 pixel of the task bar. If they had simply left the Start Button there-- it only occupied 64x64 pixels or something-- people would have instantly recognized the start screen for what it really is-- an much improved Start Menu. People wouldn't have felt so confused. Was it really worth 64x64 pixels on a screen to cause all these problems?

Edited by bitslasher, Jan 24 2013, 8:59pm :

Unfortunately, there's much more on the 1x1 pixel shrunk. There are many changes on the interface that have moved the "usual stuff" from the "usual spot". Take for example Shut Down Option, Log in/out, devices and printers, etc.

Totally agree with the thought that they should have left the start button. I've managed to talk people into giving Windows 8 a second shot before I acquiesce and downgrade them to Win7 by;

- Install one of the Start Menu replacements
- Get them a Logitech T650 if they have the additional cash.

I think a good progression would have been;
Win8 - leave Start Menu as it is.
Win9 - Perhaps by default auto hide the Start Button or perhaps even the entire taskbar
Win10 - bye bye Start button.

Gradually phase it out.

Condere said,
auto hide the Start Button or perhaps even the entire taskbar

but, auto-hide taskbar already exist since Windows 95 ...

Yeah there is just not enough choice. I do not want a premium PC. I want budget. To use all of windows 8 features on a good machine (good screen, ram, processor) that costs big bucks.

Sorry for now. my win7 machine is fine until prices come down

moloko said,
Yeah there is just not enough choice. I do not want a premium PC. I want budget. To use all of windows 8 features on a good machine (good screen, ram, processor) that costs big bucks.

Sorry for now. my win7 machine is fine until prices come down

Given time the price of touch screens will come way down. Many key parts needed to properly support Vista and 7 came down alot once the OS hit the market for a while.

The good news, is that Win 8 would force Pc makers to release more touch device, just like Vista forced Pc makers to use more Ram.

bigmehdi said,
The good news, is that Win 8 would force Pc makers to release more touch device, just like Vista forced Pc makers to use more Ram.

hurray more devices that you can wave your finger around like a idiot, sit close to your screen, damage your eyes more and leave smears all over your screen.

nekrosoft13 said,

hurray more devices that you can wave your finger around like a idiot, sit close to your screen, damage your eyes more and leave smears all over your screen.

I'm curious, how far away from yoru screens do you sit? I'm within arms reach of all 4 of my monitors.

i would need another 2 feet to touch the screen. but then again i never would, i don't want snugges on my IPS screen that I use for photo editing.

MrHumpty said,
I'm curious, how far away from yoru screens do you sit? I'm within arms reach of all 4 of my monitors.

I work in IT. It's rare that I see a user that has a monitor anywhere near to a position that they could comfortably touch it.

I'm over 6' tall and with a reach that goes with that, my monitors as I type are another foot and a half away.

nekrosoft13 said,

hurray more devices that you can wave your finger around like a idiot, sit close to your screen, damage your eyes more and leave smears all over your screen.

Unfortunately that is the current trend with Kinect and similar devices.

What's to debate. This issue is simple. Anyone who has bought a Windows 7 PC, likely doesnt want to buy a new PC, just to be able to touch the screen to use Windows 8. I would say many people buying a Windows 8 system likely maybe didnt buy a Windows 7 system and so 8 is perfect.

Windows 8 requires new hardware to use. Without a touchscreen Windows 8 is a drag for keyboard/mouse. But with a bit of time you can work with it. But touching is faster on the skin.

Economic issues....money is tight, taxes went up, people are unsure of finances...why rush to bye a pc you really dont need. Windows 8 really doesnt offer anything compelling unless you are coming from Windows XP or Vista.

Any Windows Vista or 7 PC can run Windows 8. I chose to buy to copies of 8 for 39.99 as oppose to spending $1000 for a new laptop. I was also waiting for the Surface Pro.

Windows 8 really doesnt offer anything compelling unless you are coming from Windows XP or Vista.

even then... stick with Windows 7 if you ask me as then you got a properly functioning "PC" instead of a handicapped interface with Win 8. or at the very least with Windows 8... it's interface is too much of a change from what we are used to for ages now as even with Vista/7, while those changed vs XP etc, the core function of the interface was mostly the same to where it's not a drastic change like Windows 8 is. Windows 8's interface is just not made for a Laptop/PC with mouse+keyboard. it's more suited for those simple internet devices, like IPAD's and the like (basically those devices which are touchscreen and offer basic internet function), which are basically a very basic PC and not a full functioning PC.

TechieXP said,
What's to debate. This issue is simple. Anyone who has bought a Windows 7 PC, likely doesnt want to buy a new PC, just to be able to touch the screen to use Windows 8. I would say many people buying a Windows 8 system likely maybe didnt buy a Windows 7 system and so 8 is perfect.

Windows 8 requires new hardware to use. Without a touchscreen Windows 8 is a drag for keyboard/mouse. But with a bit of time you can work with it. But touching is faster on the skin.

Economic issues....money is tight, taxes went up, people are unsure of finances...why rush to bye a pc you really dont need. Windows 8 really doesnt offer anything compelling unless you are coming from Windows XP or Vista.

Any Windows Vista or 7 PC can run Windows 8. I chose to buy to copies of 8 for 39.99 as oppose to spending $1000 for a new laptop. I was also waiting for the Surface Pro.

Windows 8 does not require new hardware. For the most part everything can be easily accessed using the keyboard and mouse including the side charms bars. I am sure they will be coming out with touch overlays for old laptops eventually though...

P.S. - if you had gotten a computer with Windows 7 within the qualifying period you could of gotten a Windows 8 license for $15. I paid like $35 shipped for a DVD just so I had it on hand.

ThaCrip said,

even then... stick with Windows 7 if you ask me as then you got a properly functioning "PC" instead of a handicapped interface with Win 8. or at the very least with Windows 8... it's interface is too much of a change from what we are used to for ages now as even with Vista/7, while those changed vs XP etc, the core function of the interface was mostly the same to where it's not a drastic change like Windows 8 is. Windows 8's interface is just not made for a Laptop/PC with mouse+keyboard. it's more suited for those simple internet devices, like IPAD's and the like (basically those devices which are touchscreen and offer basic internet function), which are basically a very basic PC and not a full functioning PC.

Yea except Windows 8 is a full OS. Windows 8 RT is a version targeted at ARM processors so it can't run legacy apps (different architecture) but it will run any current Windows 8 app in the market at this point.

Oh and here is a tablet that was shown at CES and will become a very real product.

http://www.razerzone.com/gaming-systems/razer-edge-pro

It is a tablet/console/laptop targeted at gamers.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. This report is very skeptical, The Register has always bashed any and all Microsoft products, and I wouldn't be surprised if this article was entirely made up or taken drastically out of context.

singularity87 said,
I think it's very simple. Windows 7 PCs are really good. People don't see any point in changing a good thing or even care.

It's got nothing to do with Win7. It has more to do with what people use their PC for, and how whatever PC that currently have does that job they need it to do reasonably well enough.

I had a guy recently come to me asking me to set up some software and transfer data from his old PC to a new one her just purchased. He shows up at my door with an old Gateway PC and a Dell GX520. The Dell was purchased refurbished from an online retailer (TigerDirect?). I look at him cross eyed, but he told me that he was already doing a bunch of work on it and it suited him fine. A PENTIUM 4 PC!!!!

singularity87 said,
I think it's very simple. Windows 7 PCs are really good. People don't see any point in changing a good thing or even care.

Change is necessary for forward progress. Sometimes change comes at a cost and we all know that no one likes change.

It's their own fault, they fixed something that wasn't broken and by doing so alienated a whole desktop OS. May this serve as a lesson, they should make something with their touchscreen features for touch devices. Nobody asked to be drowned in their metro bs crap. They should have at least have given us the choice to disable all this touch nonsense. And why was Aero Glass removed? This makes no sense on a PC.. 'Windows 8 was designed with touchscreen in mind' - To hell with that, well they will now feel the effects of their failed OS and blaming manufacturers is just pathetic. The demand for windows-based touchscreen devices is too low because people don't simply want those crappy underpowered tablets/AIOs.

I'd say they missed an opportunity. By forcing users to use that metro thing, there was rejection.
And I don't like their plan to ditch the old desktop interface, instead of finding a right synergy.

yowanvista said,
It's their own fault, they fixed something that wasn't broken and by doing so alienated a whole desktop OS. May this serve as a lesson, they should make something with their touchscreen features for touch devices. Nobody asked to be drowned in their metro bs crap. They should have at least have given us the choice to disable all this touch nonsense. And why was Aero Glass removed? This makes no sense on a PC.. 'Windows 8 was designed with touchscreen in mind' - To hell with that, well they will now feel the effects of their failed OS and blaming manufacturers is just pathetic. The demand for windows-based touchscreen devices is too low because people don't simply want those crappy underpowered tablets/AIOs.

excactly

yowanvista said,
It's their own fault, they fixed something that wasn't broken and by doing so alienated a whole desktop OS. May this serve as a lesson, they should make something with their touchscreen features for touch devices. Nobody asked to be drowned in their metro bs crap. They should have at least have given us the choice to disable all this touch nonsense. And why was Aero Glass removed? This makes no sense on a PC.. 'Windows 8 was designed with touchscreen in mind' - To hell with that, well they will now feel the effects of their failed OS and blaming manufacturers is just pathetic. The demand for windows-based touchscreen devices is too low because people don't simply want those crappy underpowered tablets/AIOs.
How to cripple the most successful operating sytem ever produced: Make it's start screen go from 1/8th the screen to the entire screen and add features to it. You're right. It's useless.

yowanvista said,
It's their own fault, they fixed something that wasn't broken and by doing so alienated a whole desktop OS. May this serve as a lesson, they should make something with their touchscreen features for touch devices. Nobody asked to be drowned in their metro bs crap. They should have at least have given us the choice to disable all this touch nonsense. And why was Aero Glass removed? This makes no sense on a PC.. 'Windows 8 was designed with touchscreen in mind' - To hell with that, well they will now feel the effects of their failed OS and blaming manufacturers is just pathetic. The demand for windows-based touchscreen devices is too low because people don't simply want those crappy underpowered tablets/AIOs.

I actually think Microsoft is trying to make a predictive move at a potential and (I'm sure) calculated cost. They are betting on the trend toward more touch screen environments. I mean if you think about it the current generation is probably using their smart phone and possibly an android tablet or ipad more than they use their laptop for casual tasks. This is also their 2nd attempt at entering the tablet market. Their first attempt was with Windows XP Tablet PC Edition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W..._editions#Tablet_PC_Edition) and that one flopped very badly. They tried to alter a desktop OS to work on touch screens but it never worked out because the areas you had to hit were too small.

With Windows 8 they did the opposite. They built a touch oriented OS then adjusted it to work as well as possibly on a Desktop.

For Aero Glass.... Remember when it was introduced in Vista? The first thing people started doing was disabling it and moaning how much of a resource hog it was. Granted it wasn't well optimized and got alot better on Windows 7 but people acted like they didn't need the extra visuals. Many reverted the UI back to XP as best as they could. Now we got people complaining asking why was it removed? Probably to save resources so the Windows OS doesn't need as much.

99% of all quick routes I took in Windows 7 work in Windows 8. For common control panel applets I use the filename for it (hasn't changed since Windows XP). For any program of function I just hit start and start typing. If it is something I know is in the control panel I click settings on the right to get the results from that area. Searching is tons faster than on Windows 7 (I had to wait there... not on 8).

Boot times... Well on Windows 7 I probably waited a minute or two. On Windows 8 it is under 10 seconds easy with Fast Boot and a SSD. Sometimes less than 5 seconds. This is from a cold boot (I always tell it to do a shutdown).

shinji257 said,

For Aero Glass.... Remember when it was introduced in Vista? The first thing people started doing was disabling it and moaning how much of a resource hog it was. Granted it wasn't well optimized and got alot better on Windows 7 but people acted like they didn't need the extra visuals. Many reverted the UI back to XP as best as they could. Now we got people complaining asking why was it removed? Probably to save resources so the Windows OS doesn't need as much.


Actually Aero Glass has a very little memory footprint, it doesn't even consume much resources. It's also not like modern GPUs can't run it, I think that they removed it for more power savings on portable devices, but still they should have kept it on desktops, power issues do not concern PCs. There was really no need to sacrifice the traditional UI just for tablets and the like.

yowanvista said,

Actually Aero Glass has a very little memory footprint, it doesn't even consume much resources. It's also not like modern GPUs can't run it, I think that they removed it for more power savings on portable devices, but still they should have kept it on desktops, power issues do not concern PCs. There was really no need to sacrifice the traditional UI just for tablets and the like.

You can restore Aero Glass fully with 3rd party apps pretty easily. As it stands it still lives in the taskbar.

shinji257 said,

You can restore Aero Glass fully with 3rd party apps pretty easily. As it stands it still lives in the taskbar.


Can't since the whole Aero 'blur/Glass' code was removed from WDM, those 'utilities' use the high contrast hack which ain't even close to the real deal.

yowanvista said,

Actually Aero Glass has a very little memory footprint, it doesn't even consume much resources. It's also not like modern GPUs can't run it, I think that they removed it for more power savings on portable devices, but still they should have kept it on desktops, power issues do not concern PCs. There was really no need to sacrifice the traditional UI just for tablets and the like.
Apparently, to cripple and OS, you must not only remove a button but take away transperancy on window borders. Thanks for clearing that up.

Asus 11.6" touch screen: $449
Acer 15.6" touch screen: $579
Toshiba 14" touch screen: $579

3 models to choose from at Best Buy under $600. Windows buyers expect a lot of choice in that price range, that's what Windows is all about. Affordability. There is not enough choice at the moment. Plus the UI makes a lot of peoples heads explode. No Video Tutorial planted on the Start Screen. Just plain stupid MS. If you are going to make a massive UI change you need to make a massive education effort.

jimmyfal said,
a massive education effort.

Well, you see. Microsoft believe the new system is more intuitive and thus people should be able to pick it up without such an effort.

The 60 million of us who have taken the plunge will tell you, it's not that difficult.

My only issue with the new UI is that 'some' things do require refinement, such as naming start menu groups with keyboard and mouse. not as intuitive as they would have you believe.

However, if more touch systems were present at launch, my concern becomes moot.

"deadonthefloor said"
The 60 million of us who have taken the plunge will tell you, it's not that difficult.

Nope it is not difficult. But it's not "on the spot". There are many UI maneuvers that you need to "know" beforehand to do it, because Windows 8 works differently than other OSes people are used to.

What Dead Said... (lulz).

Sat my mom down with Windows 8 and within minutes she was off and going and not looking back. She asked how to turn it off and I just told her to hit the power button.

deadonthefloor said,


The 60 million of us who have taken the plunge will tell you, it's not that difficult.

My old mom still didn't assimilate how to perform a basic copy/paste. So win 8 is out of question for her.

The 60 million of us who have taken the plunge will tell you, it's not that difficult.

i am sure it's not difficult for those who have little to no experience with a PC. but it's like it's over simplified and those of us who actually like to use the PC end up getting screwed over as a result as they killed the core of Windows that we have been used to for ages and stuff seems like more of a chore to do unlike Windows 7 stuff just works the way we have been used to for ages now.

but hopefully with Windows 9 they will get it right and find some sort of balance between Windows 7/8.

deadonthefloor said,


The 60 million of us who have taken the plunge will tell you, it's not that difficult.
.

60 million people are not using windows 8, 60 million licenses were sold to OEMs to be installed on PCs, that then sit in store, out of that only a small percentage actually was sold and used.

bigmehdi said,
My old mom still didn't assimilate how to perform a basic copy/paste. So win 8 is out of question for her.
Does this mean my mom is smarter than your mom?

nekrosoft13 said,
60 million people are not using windows 8, 60 million licenses were sold to OEMs to be installed on PCs, that then sit in store, out of that only a small percentage actually was sold and used.

Yes, the PC market is dominated by pre-built machines that are on shelves somewhere.

And NO ONE wants or needs a touch screen on the desktop. So with that and the price difference, or no way to buy a new Windows 7 PC, users are just passing for now.

As they should. Until MS fixes the asinine "Start Screen by default" for normal Desktop PCs fiasco, Windows 8 will continue to drag down the entire PC industry.

I humbly suggest that MS fix this with the Blue release by this summer or they will lose the 2013 Holiday sales season like they just lost this one in 2012.

ThaCrip said,

i am sure it's not difficult for those who have little to no experience with a PC. but it's like it's over simplified and those of us who actually like to use the PC end up getting screwed over as a result as they killed the core of Windows that we have been used to for ages and stuff seems like more of a chore to do unlike Windows 7 stuff just works the way we have been used to for ages now.

but hopefully with Windows 9 they will get it right and find some sort of balance between Windows 7/8.

I've been using Windows since 3.1. I'm well versed in DOS (so I'm actually more comfortable there), Linux (including both Bash and KSH shells), and Mac OS X. I had zero trouble adjusting to Windows 8. For the most part it actually works well once you sit down and actually use it rather than staring at it. The issue with it is that it doesn't present well but anyone at work that didn't like it at first converted and admitted later that it is a very good OS. I know plenty of users at work that would of switched back to Windows 7 if they didn't like it. At least 2 of the work installs (not including my laptop) were upgrades so they could of gone back if they wanted to.

jimmyfal said,
[snip]
No Video Tutorial planted on the Start Screen. Just plain stupid MS. If you are going to make a massive UI change you need to make a massive education effort.

There is a "tutorial" before you login for the first time. It is replayed when you create a new user account so assuming one person per user account everyone gets to see it at some point. You just won't get to see it on the store display much. Some OEMs are including a basic tutorial application with their Windows 8 computers.

People are stupid, especially consumers, they don't get it once, and what if they went to get a cup of coffee while the totally inadequate tutorial played. No excuse in 2013 to not have a video tutorial placed front and center. Asinine. That tutorial doesn't do anything for the user that should have a decent mail program, and photo apps out of the box ready to go. Ms tossed the baby into the swimming pool. I love Windows 8, but you can't do this to consumers, it's stupid, because they are not savvy.

shinji257 said,
There is a "tutorial" before you login for the first time. It is replayed when you create a new user account so assuming one person per user account everyone gets to see it at some point. You just won't get to see it on the store display much. Some OEMs are including a basic tutorial application with their Windows 8 computers.
Lets be honest. I think Win8 is an amazing operating system. But that "tutorial" is simple "hey bro, swipe from a side to do things." By NO means does it explain the gesture support of Modern. A small, 2-3 minute video you could bypass on first login (and access later as a default tile on the desktop) would have done Win8 a HUGE service without any question.... what they have now is a punt at best.

Two Duds don't make a right...... (sorry but I really hate metro). I honestly don't think new hardware will help. Its not the hardware that has the bad rap, its windows 8.

Sorry, but I really hate non-metro. And apparently because one person's opinion applies to all users, my preference is why there was 60 million licenses of Win8 sold.

nohone said,
Sorry, but I really hate non-metro. And apparently because one person's opinion applies to all users, my preference is why there was 60 million licenses of Win8 sold.

With 56 million of them still sitting on the shelves apparently...

Order_66 said,

With 56 million of them still sitting on the shelves apparently...

You are confused. Those are millions of Macs sitting on store shelves. The numbers from yesterday showed that.

nohone said,

You are confused. Those are millions of Macs sitting on store shelves. The numbers from yesterday showed that.

Actually being a manager at a large retailer that sells both apple and microsoft products I get to see just how many are really sitting on the shelves, while we do have quite a few apple machines and ipads etc in stock they usually don't last very long and are replenished regularly, we still have many of the same windows 8 machines sitting on the shelves that we received around the time windows 8 was released, not to mention the ones we recently received, those machines outnumber the apple products 15 to 1 when it comes to sitting in stock.

People just don't like windows 8, very few people are buying them at the store I work at and of the other 3 stores in my area they are reporting the exact same thing.

Order_66 said,

Actually being a manager at a large retailer that sells both apple and microsoft products I get to see just how many are really sitting on the shelves, while we do have quite a few apple machines and ipads etc in stock they usually don't last very long and are replenished regularly, we still have many of the same windows 8 machines sitting on the shelves that we received around the time windows 8 was released, not to mention the ones we recently received, those machines outnumber the apple products 15 to 1 when it comes to sitting in stock.

People just don't like windows 8, very few people are buying them at the store I work at and of the other 3 stores in my area they are reporting the exact same thing.

Oh, I am sorry. You work at a retailer (so I am assume Best Buy, since there are not many places that sell both Macs and PCs), so your one store reflects the market better than Apple's own financial results, and Timmy Cook's own admission that Mac sales are down. Meanwhile, Microsoft just announced that sales for the Windows division is up 24% YOY.

But you are a manager at (I assume BB), so you know everything. Do you still have Snow Caps in stock up by the register?

Order_66 said,
...

And I like your claims over on Engadget that Microsoft is lying in their reports. Which to the SEC is fraud and penalties include prison time. Care to back up your claims that Ballmer etc. should be arrested, or does your job at the Best Buy mean that you know better than the management at Microsoft how much they sold?

nohone said,
Sorry, but I really hate non-metro. And apparently because one person's opinion applies to all users, my preference is why there was 60 million licenses of Win8 sold.

60 million licenses sold to OEMs, on PCs that no one wants to buy

nekrosoft13 said,

60 million licenses sold to OEMs, on PCs that no one wants to buy

But I say that people do want those PCs with Win8. And my opinion is more important than yours, so what I say is true and what you say is false.

nohone said,

But I say that people do want those PCs with Win8. And my opinion is more important than yours, so what I say is true and what you say is false.


oh yeah, you are right. that why there are so many reports that win8 pcs sell like crap.

nekrosoft13 said,

60 million licenses sold to OEMs, on PCs that no one wants to buy

because Microsoft told them they'd better get in quick before the price went up (in an attempt to drum up interest that doesn't exist).

Sonne said,

nohone, are you upset?

I think he is, he's gone from standard internet trolling to stalking following me from engadget and back.
And naturally there's no accountability here since he's arguing in favor of microsoft.

Regardless of who wants to believe whatever it is they want to believe, the microsoft zealots are online saying one thing while some of us in the real world are witnessing something completely different live and in person every day.

Order_66 said,

I think he is, he's gone from standard internet trolling to stalking following me from engadget and back.
And naturally there's no accountability here since he's arguing in favor of microsoft.

Regardless of who wants to believe whatever it is they want to believe, the microsoft zealots are online saying one thing while some of us in the real world are witnessing something completely different live and in person every day.

You mean I read engadget and noticed your avatar and name but did not reply over there makes me a stalker? I read TheVerge also, do you post there? If so, I will stop reading it because I wouldn't want to appear that I am stalking you.

With that said.. also, people who bought computers 3-4 years ago don't need to upgrade.. Computers today last longer than the ones 5-7 years ago.

Fus10n said,
With that said.. also, people who bought computers 3-4 years ago don't need to upgrade.. Computers today last longer than the ones 5-7 years ago.
Look. Something intelligent.

^^ This is absolutely true! I still have a desktop from 2007 and it's running Windows 8 with no problems at all. I've done a few upgrades such as a new video card, ram and SSD. This thing is going to last at least another 3-4 years. That's 10 years of life.

Here Lappy from 2008. Running 8 with no slowdowns.

The Core brand has done an amazing job surpassing software bug downs. It even ran Vista quite good, to be honest.

Fus10n said,
With that said.. also, people who bought computers 3-4 years ago don't need to upgrade.. Computers today last longer than the ones 5-7 years ago.

Also quite possible that the cheap $40 upgrade price convinced many they didn't need to buy a new computer. Jack the upgrade price to $200 and they might be more inclined to just buy a new PC rather than waste so much money on upgrading their clunker.

I will say that MS is also making a huge mistake not putting more emphasis on apps that require more power. I would put heavy duty apps front and center in the app store and make people feel like their current machine is slow.

My laptop is 2.5 years old, and I put Win8 on it. Runs better than Win7 and feel I can get another year or two of life out of it. I think this, plus people moving to non-traditional computing devices (phones, tablets) are really the cause of lackluster sales. I note from an article on the Verge that Mac sales are down upwards of 20% over last year, so this is not unique to Microsoft.

Agreed. computers now don't really need upgrades 24/7 like they used to in the old days. even gamers don't really need to upgrade nearly as much as this point but i suspect that will start all over for them once the new consoles arrive. but as far as general use PC's nowadays can last quite a while i suspect.

plus, Windows 8's interface is what really kills it for me as Windows 7 is just all around better. Windows 8's interface is just to much of a drastic change from the tried and true interfaces we have had for a long time now as with Windows 8 stuff is just more of a chore to do as i tried it (the RTM) briefly in a virtual machine just to get a rough feel of it and i dumped it pretty quickly as i doubt ill bother with Windows 8. lets just hope Windows 9 they finally get it right, like find some sort of balance between Windows 7/8.

Fus10n said,
With that said.. also, people who bought computers 3-4 years ago don't need to upgrade.. Computers today last longer than the ones 5-7 years ago.

That is true. Still rocking my first gen core 2 duo here... and I'm an enthousiast! Just not running any games. Lots of media and photoshopping tho. That thing will even last me some more years. Even I am impressed!

A lot of people who never really needed a PC have 'upgraded' to a tablet and its not a tablet running any version of Windows.

PC makers realised (like most users) that Windows 8 is rubbish. Microsoft can huff and puff all it likes, but everyone from the early beta's has been telling them its rubbish, yet they continues to ignore them.

Who would have expected it would flop!