RIAA: Those CD rips of yours are still "unauthorized"

Those MP3 and AAC files that you've ripped from your CD collection are still "unauthorized copies" in the eyes of the recording industry. In a brief filed late last week, the RIAA said that the MP3 files on a PC owned by a file-sharing defendant who had admitted to ripping them himself were "unauthorized copies."

Atlantic v. Howell is a bit unusual because the defendants, husband and wife Jeffrey and Pamela Howell, are defending themselves against the recording industry's lawsuit without the benefit of a lawyer. They were sued by the RIAA in August 2006 after an investigator from SafeNet discovered evidence of file-sharing over the KaZaA network.

The Howells have denied any copyright infringement on their part. In their response to the RIAA's lawsuit, they said that the MP3 files on their PC are and "always have been" for private use. "The files in question are for transfer to portable devices, that is legal for 'fair use,'" reads their response.

After several years of litigation and nearly 30,000 lawsuits, making a copy of a CD you bought for your own personal usage is still a concept that the recording industry is apparently uncomfortable with. During the Jammie Thomas trial this fall, the head of litigation from Sony BMG testified that she believed that ripping your own CDs is stealing.

When asked by the RIAA's lead counsel whether it was wrong for consumers to make copies of CDs they have purchased, Jennifer Pariser replied in the negative. "When an individual makes a copy of a song for himself, I suppose we can say he stole a song," said Pariser. Making "a copy" of a song you own is just "a nice way of saying 'steals just one copy'," according to Pariser.

News source: Arstehnica.com

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This so called "legal counsel" is a freakin' idiot. End of story. It's not illegal to copy songs from your own CDs.

"Making a copy of a CD you bought for your own personal usage is still a concept that the recording industry is apparently uncomfortable with"

Too bad. That is legal. Deal with it.


'"When an individual makes a copy of a song for himself, I suppose we can say he stole a song'" said Pariser. Making "a copy" of a song you own is just "a nice way of saying 'steals just one copy'"

Looks like someone should have researched the law before letting their mouth open up and demonstrate their unbelievable stupidity. In the "old" days I recall quite clearly, copyright warnings that said you couldn't make any illegal copies except your own for backup/archival purposes. It is perfectly legal to back up your own media if it's for your own use and not for distribution on any scale (that means lending or P2P). I back up ALL my media and play the copies so it they get scratched up or lost I can burn another one. Think how this applies to families with children. Do you really think DVDs can withstand kids? Sooner or later discs get scratched, smudged, lost, or broken. You've already paid for a license to play the movie for home use so there's no reason you should have to go out and buy it again. That's why you play a COPY of the movie you already own.

I pirate nothing. I am happy to support artists and movies that I like. However, I have no tolerance for bully tactics or organizations that have forgotten what my rights are as a PAYING CUSTOMER.

Piracy is a terrible crime.

Organizations taking away our rights is worse.

I'm glad we don't have to deal with this in Canada.

You want to stop the RIAA? Really? There is only one way. STOP BUYING MUSIC. Don't buy another CD. It is as simple as that. We hold the power. We have the money. Stop buying their product and they will go away.


This is getting quite tiresome.


I don't think piracy is really the problem as such... I feel as though the RIAA are playing on a small problem to create a new age business model, increasing the revenue of the record companies associated with it. What they are clearly attempting to do here is revoke fair use, forcing copyright law to become more strict. By doing this, they force people to buy multiple copies of one song. As it stands this is a grey area, and it feels as though over the past few years, they have been using these court cases to slowly alter both public opinion and the law with regards to the sale and use of media, bending everything to their favour. Sad fact is, I can forsee this all getting a lot worse.


Whilst I don't agree with piracy, I also don't agree with the removal of "fair use". They are walking down a path which will irritate a lot of music and film fans. We need some people with very deep pockets to stand up to these guys and speak for the majority who are tired of being bullied and coerced.

ccuk said,
This is getting quite tiresome.


I don't think piracy is really the problem as such... I feel as though the RIAA are playing on a small problem to create a new age business model, increasing the revenue of the record companies associated with it.

Piracy is not the issue. GREED is. The RIAA want complete control of artist and people wonder why a lot of new music out there is generic and just su*ks. The RIAA fear piracy because they know they are not needed anymore.

Artists, or should I say good artists make their money from concerts. These artists give a damn about their fans and tour. Realistically an artist can then charge nothing or next to nothing for their music if they would go independent and just tour as usual. They want be hurting, fans get what they want and RIAA will be eliminated.

Well, if I'm going to be accused of being a thief simply for making fair use of something I've paid for, then I may as well not actually bother with the paying part and just go with downloading it for free.

After all, I'm already tried and convicted as a a thief according to the RIAA, so I may as well actually DO the crime I'm pre-convicted of.

And another thing... THE RIAA should spend some more time releasing quality artists instead of all the crap ones you see on mtv and hear on the radio. Music died right after nsync and britney came along.

**** I should sue them for making me listen to crappy artists.

So a quick question.

If I rip a cd I am stealing from myself. So if I did'nt press any charges against myself why should I be tried in court for it?

That isn't how the RIAA see it. The way they see it is you don't own the CD, all you have done is purchase a license that allows you to listen to it on a CD player and that is all your allowed to do (according to them). If you copy said CD to your computer, you are stealing from the artist/record company and depriving them from getting the 21" rims for thier solid gold Hummer and such :P but seriously, it is all getting too much and I wouldn't be surprised if they start putting unskipable tracks on CDs (much like how they do on some DVDs) going on about how piracy is bad. When will this madness stop?!? (I'm guessing never....)

Could you guys explain something to me?

Why are you posting here?

For it seems that after posting here, most people will STILL go out and buy cds.

The ONLY way to stop these guys is to hit them where it hurts, their pockets! Do you think anyone in the RIAA cares about people posting in a forum? But I am sure if a thousand people decided not to buy any music for a few months, or even if a million people decided not to buy and cds for a month or two, we will see the results of this consumer boycott.

This is just my opinion, but most music these days is utter bull****. So why do we need to buy this music? The most effective solution to this would be to boycott ALL cds that have the RIAA symbol...

Support the independant artists and downloads, but boycott anything to do with the RIAA.

If enough people give the RIAA the finger, they may break from their archaic business model...

Could you guys explain something to me?

Why are you posting here?

For it seems that after posting here, most people will STILL go out and buy cds.

The ONLY way to stop these guys is to hit them where it hurts, their pockets! Do you think anyone in the RIAA cares about people posting in a forum? But I am sure if a thousand people decided not to buy any music for a few months, or even if a million people decided not to buy and cds for a month or two,

The Gunslinger said,
Could you guys explain something to me?

Why are you posting here?

For it seems that after posting here, most people will STILL go out and buy cds.

The ONLY way to stop these guys is to hit them where it hurts, their pockets! Do you think anyone in the RIAA cares about people posting in a forum? But I am sure if a thousand people decided not to buy any music for a few months, or even if a million people decided not to buy and cds for a month or two,

I did my part ;)

Edit:
I had to cross out what you said because I didn't get your authorization to quote and copy it for my personal amusement:

The ways of the RIAA are unconstitutional. The USA's purpose was to be free but frankly the RIAA is like the opposition of that statement. Why not end these sons of b!tches and have the country a little closer to what the founding fathers wanted. I bet if this was said at the class actions, they would be PWNED since it is in the amendments I believe i my memory serves me right.

The RIAA is the biggest thief in the industry. They sign artists to make albums. The studio will make millions off the sales of that album and the artist themselves will only get a very, VERY small fraction of that. Hence why they'll do large tours because they get most of that money. The artists are the ones creating the music. Yes, the studios provide the things needed to do that, but the studios wouldn't exist at all without the artists.

This is why more bands are going independent. To have complete control of their creations and get what they deserve.

My biggest beef with them is that they call copyright infringement "theft".

While we're changing one crime into another, why don't we just declare larceny to be murder, extortion to be treason, and jaywalking to be sex with a minor?

I hate how they get away with declaring that one minor crime is another more serious one.

Whatever. They're just holding on to the last threads of a dying industry...

The only reason I buy CDs anymore is so I can rip them to my computer, because quite frankly, the quality offered by online (legal) services is pathetic.

Teach the RIAA who is boss by boycotting the purchase of all forms of recordings until they are willing to accept that they are just plain wrong.

Funny that they do not go against the companies who enable consumers to rip CDs with several kinds of devices.
The only thing the RIAA can rely on is the fear they try to spread with **** like that.

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Even my Bose GSX system allows un-authorized copying of my CD collection.

Playing GTA with RIAA in mind gives purpose ti everything ... now the only thing left to do is find a molotov ****tail and the riaa headquorters ... (oops my bad it was a GTA rip so it is illegal for me to kill them) oh well .. i'll just listen to that awesome song called ... I ran ... oh man .. nice ****, nice **** ... i am busy guys recording that with a mike found in my webcam so i can listen to it while masturbating (hope that is not illegal) ...

stupid riaa ... since when are WE people lead by morons ... come on guys ... lets make a stand ... THEY cannot through 4bilion people in jail .. or pay some 10 gajilion dollars (or maybe euros cause it is worth more) because of one lousy song ... pfffffff (i'm off drinking some pirated beer and melt some silicone so i can make my wife's boobs bigger ... BIGGER i say ... if u do look at them u will see that damn I ran song so buzz off man ...

This world is going crazy. All that songs protection, sharing and all that crap. After you paid for songs you are so limited with where and how you are using your music. Same thing with the software. So much noise about all that crap. What about my new bike witch one despaired from my garage. Someone is “cleaning” my garage every 2 months and nobody cares about that. WTH is that? I want back my new bike. :disappointed:

Danrarbc said,

If that's not sarcasm there's something wrong with you.

Dude. That cut and paste copy of my post was unauthorized. I suggest you report yourself to the local authorities for grand theft and not make matters worse.

“People should just buy a cd and rip it. You are legal then.” - Bill Gates (Dec 2006)

I'd love to see the RIAA take on ol' Bill.

Screw the RIAA I bet you anything that those sorry people download music all the time and rip their CD collection just like us. Screw them!!!!

I assume they would like us to purchase the song for each device we own? If so, Bite me!

People have been copying music since cassette tapes came out (and possibly before). Why didn't the music industry do something about it 30+ years ago?

hagjohn said,
I assume they would like us to purchase the song for each device we own? If so, Bite me!

People have been copying music since cassette tapes came out (and possibly before). Why didn't the music industry do something about it 30+ years ago?

Piracy sky rocketed when file sharing networks became accessible to the masses.

The RIAA is being very bold here. According to the RIAA, what Microsoft's and Apple's media players allow the users to do is illegal. If courts side with the RIAA with this, will CD ripping be removed from our favorite media players?

On an off topic that is why the writers guild went on strike because the MPAA is not paying them their royalties for when the view the show online or sell it. Basically they are stealing from the writers' pockets but yet when you own a CD and make a copy for personal use then it is doing the same thing.

Funny if you purchased a CD and you own the "license" so if something happens to your CD that it is unplayable how come your license does not give you the right to get a free version due to malfunction?

Canada's law is fine the way it is. It is just a minority of people who download stuff do not end up buying it. Downloading for PRIVATE viewing is legal but not file sharing (uploading).

This makes no sense. They've asked a body that represents *some* artists how they interpret the law under testimony. Its my understanding that courts should not ask a witness, wether an expert or not, how the law is or should be interpreted. This is for the lawyers to argue and for the judge to decide how it should be interpreted.


for those living in Canada, hold your breath cause Ottawa is discussing the copyright bill.

we might become like the US, or we will be free 4ever.

You pay for something, you have every right to do what you want with it, including reselling it, even if the "law" says otherwise.

Things like this crap are the very reason why warez still exists today. People are sick of it.

Ok. Of course the record companies have never and never will "authorise" people to rip their own CDs which they bought themselves - hence they are correct that the CD rips are "unauthorised". However, who said we needed their authorisation to rip CDs for personal use?

They can't even compare this to "stealing". If I bought and legally own the product already, when I make a copy of it for personal use, as long as I don't distribute or make profit out of it, how can that constitute "stealing"?

This whole issue has massive ramifications for the electronics industry. If this line of legal precedent continues, it should natually continue to the point where the RIAA should sue every electronics manufacturer that manufactures MP3 players. Imagine the RIAA filing lawsuits against Sony, Samsung, Apple, Matsu****a/Panasonic, et. al - Can you then immagine the entire recording industry going belly-up because the companies that colluded with the evil filesharing defendants would be sued by the RIAA for millions upon millions of dollars, putting those companies at points where they won't make any consumer electronics that could be used for copying CDs.

I've been a proponent of two ways to resolve the entire filesharing issue: the first would be to enact laws that prohibit any hardware or software that can produce a digital copy of the music contained on a CD with a sample rate & frequency higher than 128kbps / 44.1 kHz.

The second idea: Use a high-quality cassette deck to make an analog recording of the music on the CD and then convert the analog signal into digital. Since there is no digital information copied to the MP3 file, you've circumvented the whole RIAA position.

So what their saying is...I can be sued....for backing up something....that I bought. Hmmm, so I guess that when the cd gets scratches and becomes unreadable, the will send me a free replacement. [/sarcasm]

Sadelwo said,
So what their saying is...I can be sued....for backing up something....that I bought. Hmmm, so I guess that when the cd gets scratches and becomes unreadable, the will send me a free replacement. [/sarcasm]

There is no way the RIAA can prove that you ripped it. You can always says you downloaded from a DRM free online store. And if there is some sort of tag on the song for the source you can always say well I re tagged everything last time I checked that was legal

The RIAA can't sue Zune, Creative, Samsung, iPod, etc. The reasoning is simply stupid. What RIAA is saying is, it is illegal to make copies of your CD's they never said anything against downloading songs from Itunes, Zune Market place, amazon, etc. Besides, how can they prove you didn't download instead of rip? Many sites now offer DRM free tracks.

The RIAA is simply bullies. Harvard has the right idea by standing up to them and not letting them have control.

Also, when will musicians learn, the RIAA is not needed anymore on so many different levels.
1. Having a medium of CDs is completely useless. When MP3 players were fairly new to the market, I bought one. The first thing I did when I bought a CD was rip it.

2. RIAA got an artist name out there and they were a middleman to distribute their music. Know with the Internet, you only need to know the artist website and download their music from their site. This technique will eliminate the need for physical music stores and the RIAA. New artist can promote themselves on Internet radio stations or through other big artists. Similar to what R&B/Rap artists do, they collaborate with big musicians to make a name for themselves. Radio stations will pick it up because it features a big artist name.

If only musicians can just be as bold as Trent Reznor, Saul Williams, and Radio Head, we can eliminate the RIAA in time.

I am so glad I don't buy CDs (take that for whatever it means to you).

All this stuff going on reminds me of the early 80's when the VHS recorder came out. exactly same thing was said its illegal to record anything off the tv for your own use. I think i remember that it was taken to court and it was over ruled. I think in time this will happen with Music CDs and downloads over the net. every thing you try to do will be illegal in he eyes of these companies how you meant to listen o music on a mp3 player, buy the right to download it , then buy it again to stick it on your mp3 player?? I think if that happen most people would turn to other means anyway.

Seriously what the record companies are doing is reverting the technological innovations of our world. If they get their way, what's the point of inventing any MP3 music players when all they could use is a bulky CD Discman?

Why not go at the source and sue MP3 device maker? Sue Apple (iPod, iPhone), Creative, SanDisk, .....

Every song on those device are "illegal" copie of songs on your own CD or that you downloaded (legaly) from a services like iTMS. The only device that could be legal is the iPhone, since you can buy and download music directly on the iPhone. It's not the same at home, while using iTune, the song is downloaded to your hard drive first and then copied on your iPod (or other device).....

It's simply crazy.... SUE! SUE THEM ALL!

These guys are a ****in joke. I can't believe they get away with half the **** they are saying. If you buy a CD then you OWN that cd. So if you take the cd you OWN and make a copy of it, your somehow stealing from something you own. Now where the hell is the logic in that.

Now their thinking is you pay for the cd not the music on it. So you own the cd and not the music. If that were the case, then shouldn't we pay like 50 cents that cd's cost?

Besides who the hell uses a walkman these days, hell most people I know don't even use cd's in their car, just use their iPod with an iTrip or something. Saying we are limited to only using the cd is bull****, cd's wear, cd's scratch, the format is crappy and dated, digital versions will last forever (if u don't delete it) cd's won't.

Hopefully the americans will get their **** together once someone new is in control because this is **** getting ridiculous, and thank god we don't have their bull**** in Canada.

"When an individual makes a copy of a song for himself, I suppose we can say he stole a song," said Pariser.

???

But you already HAD the song.

Not to mention that sometimes we buy CDs only because ONE or TWO of the songs inside it. And how many times we bought a DVD claimed as a special edition full of extras or something and few months later they release another copy of the same DVD with more extras just for us to spend more money. In my point of view this is GREED.

Its all about them and their money and how much control they can get over us. You can copy a cd, I have posted the link in other articles and or post in the forum. You can make a backup copy of any digital media games music cd software etc... And 17 USC 1008 says

No action may be brought under this title alleging infringement of copyright based on the manufacture, importation, or distribution of a digital audio recording device, a digital audio recording medium, an analog recording device, or an analog recording medium, or based on the noncommercial use by a consumer of such a device or medium for making digital musical recordings or analog musical recordings.

You can find that here or here or here lol. Riaa does not care about anyone but themselves.


I buy CD's, as soon as I get the CD home I rip it and put the CD away for safe keeping. I own some CD's that have never been played as music. I play all my music on my PC and iPod. If they are going to pull this sh** then what is the point of me paying for the CD in the first place. I should just download it from P2P instead of giving them my $30 for a European import.
I try to support the artists I like by actually buying the CD's, then the RAIA comes along and tries to screw us all over. They really need to change their tactic.

is it me, or is this just very boring now!

its my property, i own that CD, therefore I own what I do to it... If i want to copy, destory or give it to my friends, I will...

they should be happy that I actually paid to buy the CD in the first place. Maybe if they promoted that, rather than discouraging people, they might sort themselves out.

bunch of greedy f***s

I just did a little research, and the RIAA's lawyer is dead wrong. In fact, it's explicitly covered under the law to make personal rips/copies of digital media in 17 USC 1008, from the Audio Home Recording Act of 1992, signed into law by Papa Bush.

Non-commercial copying by consumers of digital and analog musical recordings is *NOT* stealing, it's *NOT*, copyright infringement, and it's PERFECTLY LEGAL. PERIOD. END OF SUBJECT.

The B***H needs to go back and read the LAW and stop spouting her B.S.

Last time I checked the law has more authority than an organization of record companies so you can go suck my legitimatley copied for self use backup CDs

Damn it, I just ripped two today! Better keep low for a few weeks, thank goodness I went to the supermarket recently.

LOL What a joke! I'm going to rip my CD's all I like, and there's nothing you can do to stop me.

Ripping Format: MP3
Ripping: 0%....25%.....50%.....75%....100%
Ripping Complete!

Those MP3 and AAC files that you've ripped from your CD collection are still "unauthorized copies" in the eyes of the recording industry. In a brief filed late last week, the RIAA said that the MP3 files on a PC owned by a file-sharing defendant who had admitted to ripping them himself were "unauthorized copies."
And theyre still greedy, money and power hungry jackoffs wiith too much time on their hands in my eyesl

In Spain for every hard drive, mp3 player, mobile phone.. you are paying a tax to "compensate" the spanish riaa's counterpart for "private copy". Therefore I'm more than entitled to do whatever the hell I want :P

If the RIAA had its way you'd have to buy a copy for each time you listen to it, or pay a royalty when you hum it to yourself. They even consider it illegal sharing when you play your radio to loud so that others can hear it.

Foub said,
If the RIAA had its way you'd have to buy a copy for each time you listen to it, or pay a royalty when you hum it to yourself. They even consider it illegal sharing when you play your radio to loud so that others can hear it. :rolleyes:

Yes, I know this is in the UK, but I'll post it anyways:

The action against the Kwik-Fit Group has been brought by the Performing Rights Society which collects royalties for songwriters and performers.

At a procedural hearing at the Court of Session in Edinburgh a judge refused to dismiss the £200,000 damages claim.

Kwik-Fit wanted the case brought against it thrown out.

Lord Emslie ruled that the action can go ahead with evidence being heard.

The PRS claimed that Kwik-Fit mechanics routinely use personal radios while working at service centres across the UK and that music, protected by copyright, could be heard by colleagues and customers.

More of the story in the link

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinbu...ast/7029892.stm

It's legal in the UK, the government said so...

"Copying CDs

If you've bought a CD in a shop, you can make a copy for your own personal use and you will not be breaking the law. You can also lend the CD that you bought to your friends if they want to listen to it.

However, it is illegal to make copies of CDs and give them to your friends or to sell pirate copies of CDs for a profit."

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/YoungPeople/Cr...ime/DG_10027978

I think it means you can keep one physical copy, but anyway - no ones exactly going to know are they lol?

Dunno about you, but I've yet to have a police officer come into my house and inspect my computer for rips.

Sazz181 said,
I think it means you can keep one physical copy, but anyway - no ones exactly going to know are they lol?

Dunno about you, but I've yet to have a police officer come into my house and inspect my computer for rips.

I pray to God that day never happens.

Maybe they're doing this intentionally. They're exposing to the world that such a distribution method exist, and anybody who finds their insistence on legal CD for every person is ridicolous will be tempted to defy the institution and rip the CD or pirate. In the end, they're actually the ones driving people away from the traditional distribution method, and that's a really good thing.

Of course, maybe they're not even that smart in a back-ass-ward method to drive progress, and are simply retards.

ok, ok... so ripping a mp3,ogg,ect. ect.. is illegal, does that mean that all companies who produce the software that people install on their computer are guilty of facilitating users with the ability to do so? that means Microsoft, Apple, nero, roxio, ect. ect. will be getting sued correct?... and does that also mean every single producer of personal mp3 players are guilty also? we would not be in this mess if they had not made the *evil evil* devices and impliments of destruction of the whole worlds morals...

I get the feeling the RIAA is going to be the next SCO.... They certainly are not building any support for themselves right now.

That's bad ... is RIAA so stupid and thinks that this will make people more legal and go buy CD AND MP3 ?
LOL, of course this will only bring more piracy for sure !!!

Here's the rub...

Are we paying for the license to listen to the songs on the cd, or are we paying for the cd and the contents thereof?

Either way, we've done our obligitory purchase of the songs in question. What is done with the data on the CD after that for personal, non-profit, non-broadcast, non-public performance reasons is NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS.

Once the sale has gone through of the CD, it's YOUR property. What you do with it, as long as you're not trying to capitalize monetarily on it, is your business.

I don't buy RIAA supported artists anymore. I ardently support any organization that opposes their BS.

"When an individual makes a copy of a song for himself, I suppose we can say he stole a song," said Pariser. Making "a copy" of a song you own is just "a nice way of saying 'steals just one copy'," according to Pariser.

Right, and statements like this don't make sales go up, either. Please, call your customers thieves more, then start suing because you aren't getting the sales you think you are "entitled" to.

It amazes me that people don't see through the BS when a company says they failed to make their "projected sales figures" and then blame something else for it, like people copying their CD's to mp3 format for playback on their portables.

What makes them so entitled to the sales figures they quote? Who says that their products are even WORTH purchasing??? The numbers are "predictions" based on THEIR anticipation of how THEY think sales will go. If they don't make the sales, they need to stop and look at THEIR processes and see what THEY have done to NOT earn those sales, not go off on some wild goose chase and sue 30000 people/entities.

People, the RIAA is evil, they REPRESENT THE LABELS. Don't take your anger out on RIAA. BOYCOTT THE LABELS themselves and make it well known in blogs, posts, web pages, etc, that the reason why their sales are down is A) their product, and B) RIAA calling them thieves. When the Labels realize that the RIAA is a liability, they will reign them in. Until then, the extortion, bribery of public officials, violation of privacy rights, unlawful hacking of computer networks, unlawful placement of malware/spyware on private individual's systems, and racketeering continues unabated.

People, the RIAA is evil, they REPRESENT THE LABELS. Don't take your anger out on RIAA.

Why not?

To a degree, you'd expect an industry association to be smart enough to distance itself from "frothing dog" members. It seems instead, they put them in charge of policy. As a result, they deserve some attention for not appropriately minding their own ranks.

It's getting to the point that I'm starting to think that the RIAA and its lawsuits is actually some grand bit of trolling by some bored lawyers. Their position is too absurd for it to be anything else.

I can only imagine what conversion led up to this.

RIAA CEO - Look team, i need another Ferrari in my garage by summer of 08. Find a way to make lots of money to get my Ferrari and you all will receive a big bonus!

RIAA Team - Ok guys, lets find a way to make people think copying a cd they purchased to their computer for use for use on their iPod or Zune is illegal so we can get their money!


This is outrageous. Guess i have no reason to buy cd's now and might as well download music if buying music is going to be illegal soon the way things are going!

Not particularly interested in what the RIAA thinks. You'd think they'd be trying to find ways to make their industry MORE attractive to consumers, not less.

Thank god I live in Canada.

1. Ripping your own CDs to a playable format for your player is *NOT* stealing. It never was, and it never will be.

2. Downloading CDs that you don't own a physical copy of, is *NOT* stealing. It never was, and it never will be.

Stealing implies that one has lost property of some sort. When downloading an album, the record companies and bands have not lost any property whatsoever. In fact, it is basically invisible to them, and they have no way of knowing without using dirty tricks.

RIAA justifies this as stealing by counting it as a lost sale. This is simple mathematics. downloading does not imply not buying the CD which in turn would imply lost sale. You cannot guarantee that someone who downloads an album will not purchase it later. Many of you will argue that once someone downloads an album, they will never buy it. But the truth is, you have no idea what someone will do. Even if all your friends, or if you knew 100 people, and they NEVER buy a CD they downloaded, that does not accurately represent the entire population of people who download albums. I, in turn, cannot argue that more people will buy the CD afterwards. But what I can say, is that a downloaded album does not guarantee a lost sale.

Therefore, it cannot be considered stealing. And i hope its clear that ripping CD's you've purchased is even less related to stealing.

Many of the albums I've downloaded I have bought as real cd's. Including Poets of the Fall, which I'd never heard of, but was so enthralled by their music I shelled out $31 to have it imported from Finland. Money isn't really the problem here. It's the lack of good music. That I have to go to Finland to find some good music is pretty sad.

WICKO said,
Thank god I live in Canada.

1. Ripping your own CDs to a playable format for your player is *NOT* stealing. It never was, and it never will be.

2. Downloading CDs that you don't own a physical copy of, is *NOT* stealing. It never was, and it never will be.

Stealing implies that one has lost property of some sort. When downloading an album, the record companies and bands have not lost any property whatsoever. In fact, it is basically invisible to them, and they have no way of knowing without using dirty tricks.

RIAA justifies this as stealing by counting it as a lost sale. This is simple mathematics. downloading does not imply not buying the CD which in turn would imply lost sale. You cannot guarantee that someone who downloads an album will not purchase it later. Many of you will argue that once someone downloads an album, they will never buy it. But the truth is, you have no idea what someone will do. Even if all your friends, or if you knew 100 people, and they NEVER buy a CD they downloaded, that does not accurately represent the entire population of people who download albums. I, in turn, cannot argue that more people will buy the CD afterwards. But what I can say, is that a downloaded album does not guarantee a lost sale.

Therefore, it cannot be considered stealing. And i hope its clear that ripping CD's you've purchased is even less related to stealing.

<snipped>

Have you heard of intellectual property, in which the owner of that "property" has exclusive rights, called copyrights, on which the owner has control on the reproduction of such property.

They never say that you are stealing, it just says that it is an unauthorized copy, because you don't have the right to make that copy. The only thing said about stealing is a personal opinion by Pariser.

bolix said,
Hey genius,

Have you heard of intellectual property, in which the owner of that "property" has exclusive rights, called copyrights, on which the owner has control on the reproduction of such property.

They never say that you are stealing, it just says that it is an unauthorized copy, because you don't have the right to make that copy. The only thing said about stealing is a personal opinion by Pariser.

<snipped>

Have you heard of this concept called reading? Whoever's opinion it is, she's the lead counsel for the RIAA. Her opinion actually makes a difference, and she clearly stated said she thinks its stealing. In fact, she said "we", and I have no doubt she speaks for quite a number of people. And I argued that it wasn't. Even if it *was* her opinion and hers alone, that doesn't mean I can't argue it.

And by saying "You don't have the right to make that copy", you meant "I don't have the right", because I sure as hell have that right, living in Canada and all.

And with regards to intellectual property, thanks. I had no idea. What will they come up with next??

By definition, it is still not stealing. There is still no loss of property. You can, however, call it "copyright infringement", I'm sure you're familiar with the term, you intellectual property expert you. My post was mainly arguing the terms they use. Not once did I say it was legal, or even morally right or wrong.

PatrynXX said,
Many of the albums I've downloaded I have bought as real cd's. Including Poets of the Fall, which I'd never heard of, but was so enthralled by their music I shelled out $31 to have it imported from Finland. Money isn't really the problem here. It's the lack of good music. That I have to go to Finland to find some good music is pretty sad.

Yeah, I've done the same. But theres also a matter of taste I guess, I mean I think a lot of the music out today is absolute ****, and most of it probably is, but then I'm sure there are many people older than myself who thought the music I listened to in the 90's was absolute **** as well.

The one thing that downloading albums has done for me is opened up my taste to bands I've never heard of and never get radio time, at least around where I live. The number of artists I listen to has expanded greatly. And I believe this is a good thing, and the RIAA should maybe try to manage something similar to Oink's. But I guess they are oblivious to this because they've shot themselves in the foot, many times now.

WICKO said,

<snipped>

Have you heard of this concept called reading? Whoever's opinion it is, she's the lead counsel for the RIAA. Her opinion actually makes a difference, and she clearly stated said she thinks its stealing. In fact, she said "we", and I have no doubt she speaks for quite a number of people. And I argued that it wasn't. Even if it *was* her opinion and hers alone, that doesn't mean I can't argue it.

And by saying "You don't have the right to make that copy", you meant "I don't have the right", because I sure as hell have that right, living in Canada and all.

And with regards to intellectual property, thanks. I had no idea. What will they come up with next??

By definition, it is still not stealing. There is still no loss of property. You can, however, call it "copyright infringement", I'm sure you're familiar with the term, you intellectual property expert you. My post was mainly arguing the terms they use. Not once did I say it was legal, or even morally right or wrong.

He never wasn't talking on behalf of the RIAA. He said "I suppose we can say he stole a song". And why would I be talking about Canada? RIAA represents only the recording industry on USA. Plus, what are you trying to say? That the author doesn't has copyrights over his creation on Canada?

bolix said,
He never wasn't talking on behalf of the RIAA. He said "I suppose we can say he stole a song". And why would I be talking about Canada? RIAA represents only the recording industry on USA. Plus, what are you trying to say? That the author doesn't has copyrights over his creation on Canada?

You're going to have to rephrase your first two sentences because I'm not entirely sure if you're using a double negative or you made a typo.

You're missing the entire point of my original post. I'm arguing semantics basically.

And I'm trying to say that in Canada, its perfectly legal to make personal copies of your music for private use. Therefore, I am still authorized to rip my CD's. I'm well aware that the RIAA represents american record companies, but trust me their views are synonomous with the CRIA. If an author wants to sell his product in our country, he must follow our laws. He definitely has copyrights over his creation but the rights are not exactly the same.

Maybe you thought I was sayings its okay to infringe copyright in Canada, but I'm not. I'm strictly refering to ripping CD's for personal use.

WICKO said,

You're going to have to rephrase your first two sentences because I'm not entirely sure if you're using a double negative or you made a typo.

You're missing the entire point of my original post. I'm arguing semantics basically.

And I'm trying to say that in Canada, its perfectly legal to make personal copies of your music for private use. Therefore, I am still authorized to rip my CD's. I'm well aware that the RIAA represents american record companies, but trust me their views are synonomous with the CRIA. If an author wants to sell his product in our country, he must follow our laws. He definitely has copyrights over his creation but the rights are not exactly the same.

Maybe you thought I was sayings its okay to infringe copyright in Canada, but I'm not. I'm strictly refering to ripping CD's for personal use.

Ok, sorry for missing the point.

bolix said,
He never wasn't talking on behalf of the RIAA. He said "I suppose we can say he stole a song". And why would I be talking about Canada? RIAA represents only the recording industry on USA. Plus, what are you trying to say? That the author doesn't has copyrights over his creation on Canada?

Actually, with regards to international law and treaties, the realm of intellectual property does not automatically carry into sovereign nations other than the nation of creation and copyright. By corporate alliances, record companies cross-file copyright ownership of content in other alliance countries; physical property that is distributed by these alliances have the various stamps or disclaimers proclaiming the nations under which a particular printing is covered by whichever applicable copyright laws.

In other words, what is considered "piracy" is America may be legal in Israel or Iran only because the multinational treaties may not be in place which recognize the other country's intellectual property laws. Heck, even the EU is trying to establish their laws as their member nations have differing policies.

There is also a distinction to be made between "recognizing" and "enforcing" potentially differing interpretations of copyright laws. Although Canada recognizes American copyright, it does not follow the same rules of enforcement; this also boils down into different constitutions and interpretations and precedents thereupon. As such, "infringement" and "piracy" are terms slapped around but with different meanings.

But back to the original topic: even in the United States, "fair use" has precedents and so does the requirements of prosecution for piracy. As argued against Napster, the original "sharers" are only as responsible as Napster facilitates the process; the same basic argument is here against sharers on Kazaa. However, Napster was not uploading content for community-understood "fair use" -- meanwhile, in this case, that was strictly their intent. Should chat logs or computer logs reveal that the sharers uploaded from their personal collection per-request, then they're in deep doodoo... otherwise, it's all hearsay.

By virtue of Napster facilitating the process, all audio-playing devices (no matter their creators or licensees) which permit the playback of potentially redistributable sound files [read: beyond live radio] on media not physically purchased with all copyright-related logos [read: similar to the Canadian surcharge on blank media] are thence facilitators of potential copyright infringement and piracy and should all be sued reverse-class-action-style. Because, otherwise, that makes the entire "back-up" industry vulnerable to claims of aiding piracy (bye-bye EMC).

The RIAA just reached a new low. Hey, I rip all the CD's I buy and put them on an external drive to listen to in the car. COME GET ME!!!

Buying a CD grants you a license to listen to that recording. If I wanna listen to it in AAC form on my Mac or my iPod then that is my right as a consumer. I've got 14,000 tracks and every single one of them are ripped from CDs (which I still own), so the RIAA can suck it!

Reprehensible Industry Abounding in Atrocities

Simply unbelievable that they would state that ripping a song is the same as stealing a song.

RIAA (Retarded Industry of America Association)... luckily im in Canada.... WOOOHOOO!!! Here the RCMP and Parliament declared that piracy is legal as long as its for personal use and non-profit.

Neo-Lenin said,
RIAA (Retarded Industry of America Association)... luckily im in Canada.... WOOOHOOO!!! Here the RCMP and Parliament declared that piracy is legal as long as its for personal use and non-profit.

id like to see a link of them declaring this...

all ive heard is that we have outdated copyright laws, and the rcmp think its a waste of resources to follow up on piracy.

It was actually a supreme court ruling, not parliment or the RCMP. The fact that the justice came up with the ruling was due to the way present copyright rules are written. unfortunately, the present government is due to table a bill that is eerily similar to the DCMA act in the United States

ghostwind said,
It was actually a supreme court ruling, not parliment or the RCMP. The fact that the justice came up with the ruling was due to the way present copyright rules are written. unfortunately, the present government is due to table a bill that is eerily similar to the DCMA act in the United States

It appears that bill may be quashed after all:
link to cbc

Manuroc said,
So why did the CRIA shut down Demonoid.com and various other Canadian websites?

Their upstream providers feared litigation would be more costly than keeping their customers. Lawyers are expensive even when you win your battles.

i dont know how you americans put up with such utter twaddle like that its just amazing that the riaa think like this lol

The RIAA is nothing but a bunch of stuffed shirts trying to line their pockets with their customer's money. The only thing they are doing is promoting piracy and showing people just how greedy they are by doing these kinds of things. 30,000 lawsuites! That is insanity. Wasnt there some kind of law passed to prevent this kind of frivilous waste of taxpayer's money?

It's amazing that they werent doing this 20 years ago when people were taking cassette tapes and making their own mixes to listen to... there are tons of software out there designed to make your own mix CD's. Why not go sue little jonny for making a mix tape for his kidergarden girlfriend back in 1985... I mean seriously. It's all about greed. I dont care what format the media is in that I PAID for, but the fact is that I PAID for it, and I have the right to use my property (digital or hard copy) however I see fit.

Go screw yourselves RIAA, get a life and go do something to BENEFIT society.

+1 I think you have the best comment so far, I like it and let me tell you that I agree totally, I totally believe that they are a corrupted organization, the reason that the supreme court does not do anything to the RIAA is because money have power, they can buy lawyers, judges, people, companies etc, etc. That's why they have such power to be greedy, they don't care about people, they don't care if you bought cd's, if you are the owners of cd's that nothing, you don't have a ****ing right to use it for personal copy use. RIAA can kiss my ass, I am never ever going to spend a cent in CD'S for RIAA to became with more power, **** you bitch

Same thing I've been saying for a while now. It's no different than back when I was younger and would tape songs that I liked off the radio. They weren't saying anything about the millions upon millions of people that were doing that. It's just stupid.

I mentioned this further down, but it's the RIAA and the studios that are the biggest thieves here. They'll sign an artist and put their album out. That album goes on to make millions and the artists themselves only see a very small fraction of that. Now I know people will mention "well usually the artist gets a contract and a good amount of money up front" and don't forget that most of that money they get in the beginning goes right back to the studio when they start recording the album. This is why most new artists that get a hit song do long tours because almost all of that tour money goes right to the artist and that's where they make the real money at. This is also why more and more artists are going independent and doing it all themselves. So they have complete control over everything they create.

Personally, I think the amount of bull**** the RIAA spews from it's putrid mouth is unauthorised. Maybe I should sue.

Kushan said,
Personally, I think the amount of bull**** the RIAA spews from it's putrid mouth is unauthorised. Maybe I should sue.
Well, technically, the RIAA is right. The ripping to MP3 (or OGG) is not "authorized".

Now, I believe (as most others do, I suspect) that the ripping of CDs complies with "Fair Use" of copyright. This specific example is just not court-tested, as far as I am aware.

I was once told by a lawyer friend exactly the same (as far as the UK is concerned), that ripping a CD to mp3 isn't legal. Hence, according to the letter of the law, all mp3 players are illegal, as they exist to reproduce illegally ripped contents. Hence, if mp3 players are illegal, they shouldn't even be allowed to be sold anyway, etc.. etc..

Actually, the same goes for the TV. You are allowed to tape something off of it, but, again according strictly to the law, you have to erase tat same tape the latest after 7 days. You are not allowed to keep tapes longer than that.

Odom said,
I was once told by a lawyer friend exactly the same (as far as the UK is concerned), that ripping a CD to mp3 isn't legal. Hence, according to the letter of the law, all mp3 players are illegal, as they exist to reproduce illegally ripped contents. Hence, if mp3 players are illegal, they shouldn't even be allowed to be sold anyway, etc.. etc..

Actually, the same goes for the TV. You are allowed to tape something off of it, but, again according strictly to the law, you have to erase tat same tape the latest after 7 days. You are not allowed to keep tapes longer than that.

What about people who buy an mp3 player and purchase music through online stores (ie. apple itunes store).

qwexor said,

What about people who buy an mp3 player and purchase music through online stores (ie. apple itunes store).


According to the RIAA that would be authorized use so you'd be fine. It never ceases to amaze me how idiotic the RIAA is.

QuarterSwede said,

According to the RIAA that would be authorized use so you'd be fine. It never ceases to amaze me how idiotic the RIAA is.

Buying the mp3 through online stores would be the only way to go, as it is the only legal way to get to an mp3....as ridiculus as it sounds.

I think there is a higher chance of hell freezing over than the RIAA getting some common sense and accepting that copying a music track that you have bought regardless of the medium it exists on for your own use on your own device is fair use.

I wonder if the RIAA is aware of the amount of hatred and utter contempt that they seem to generate.

If I post here that I rip my CDs, then am I not admitting to piracy (copyright infringement), which is against forum rules?

I guess it isn't official until upheld in (US) court. Other courts have already ruled on this.

Ridiculous, simply ridiculous. I can't rip MY OWN CDs THAT I PAID FOR, even for personal use? They really are an awful company. If they disappeared of the face of the planet, who the hell would care?

"When an individual makes a copy of a song for himself, I suppose we can say he stole a song"

Wow. So, you suppose so do you? No, it's nothing even close to stealing. Morons.

Next on the RIAA agenda: self-destructing CDs, forcing you to repurchase CDs every three months; owning a permanent copy isn't a right, it's a privilege. Soon to be followed by lawsuits against anyone who plays music loud enough to be recorded with a $2 microphone.

aren't the RIAA sick and tired of this goose chase?

For God sake when I buy a CD, I believe I have the right to listen to its content whenever I want and i dont always carry my laptop.

I know we dont "own" the content but we have the right to listen to it even in our sleep and MP3 players made that so much easier.

Its not like the recording industry are not making billions already. GET A LIFE RIAA.

abulfares said,
aren't the RIAA sick and tired of this goose chase?

For God sake when I buy a CD, I believe I have the right to listen to its content whenever I want and i dont always carry my laptop.

I know we dont "own" the content but we have the right to listen to it even in our sleep and MP3 players made that so much easier.

Its not like the recording industry are not making billions already. GET A LIFE RIAA.

RIAA don't care if you think you have the right to do this or to do that. The law says you don't and they are there to apply it.

I would like to kill my boss, but it's illegal.

Pip'

Pippin666 said,
RIAA don't care if you think you have the right to do this or to do that. The law says you don't and they are there to apply it.

I would like to kill my boss, but it's illegal.

Pip'

That's an argument. That isn't the law. Even judges have gotten irritated at the RIAA for bending the law. Basically thru some odd sort of events, fair use has ceased to exist. Shall I assume then that all those new fangled record players with a USB port out the back might be encouraging bad behavior. I converted several 78's for some of my Senior relatives. Obviously they don't have a 78 player and those almost 100 year old 78's probably are long out of print.

At least for now I'm on an off music moment. Sometimes on mostly off (although I certainly wouldn't want a REAL cd sitting in my car. That might encourage some bad behavior from actual thieves.)

Have plenty of movies, books and video games to keep me entertained. As well as some adult fare to keep me busy. Just the same old RIAA I guess. Running things like organized crime. Much like Bush did. Hey it's legal.. cause I told my attorney general to make it legal. :P

Pippin666 said,
RIAA don't care if you think you have the right to do this or to do that. The law says you don't and they are there to apply it.

I would like to kill my boss, but it's illegal.

Pip'


Don't you just love some of the RIAA fanboys who post in these threads supporting what they do. Its just sickening. How do you guys live with yourself?

And even if it was "law", that doesn't make it right. If they pass a law telling you to jump off a bridge, would you do it? Well, you probably would from your reply.

PatrynXX said,

That's an argument. That isn't the law. Even judges have gotten irritated at the RIAA for bending the law. Basically thru some odd sort of events, fair use has ceased to exist. Shall I assume then that all those new fangled record players with a USB port out the back might be encouraging bad behavior. I converted several 78's for some of my Senior relatives. Obviously they don't have a 78 player and those almost 100 year old 78's probably are long out of print.

At least for now I'm on an off music moment. Sometimes on mostly off (although I certainly wouldn't want a REAL cd sitting in my car. That might encourage some bad behavior from actual thieves.)

Have plenty of movies, books and video games to keep me entertained. As well as some adult fare to keep me busy. Just the same old RIAA I guess. Running things like organized crime. Much like Bush did. Hey it's legal.. cause I told my attorney general to make it legal. :P


Wow, that is the most rediculous argument Ive ever heard.

Pippin666 said,
RIAA don't care if you think you have the right to do this or to do that. The law says you don't and they are there to apply it.

I would like to kill my boss, but it's illegal.

Pip'


Ever hear the phrase 'fair use'?

No? Apparently neither has the RIAA.

Pippin666 said,
RIAA don't care if you think you have the right to do this or to do that. The law says you don't and they are there to apply it.

I would like to kill my boss, but it's illegal.

Pip'

Using your logic then any kind of portable player like a Zune or an iPod would also be illegal to own.

Once I hand over cash when I buy an album, I will listen to that album any way I choose. I don't care what any (twisted/fake) law says. I'm not putting it out on the internet for millions to download and it's complete BS that anyone who owns a computer and keeps music on it is treated like a criminal.

I mean it's complete BS. I like having everything on my computer because you can make it sound much better and everything is right there with a click of a mouse. You don't have to go hunting through stacks of CD's to hear a specific song. It's all right there.