Samsung Q2 profit down 25%; blames smartphone growth slowdown

Samsung has forecasted a third consecutive loss in profit, this time for the second quarter in the months between April and June, down 25% for the same period last year due to a slowdown in the smartphone market and a strong Korean currency.

It expects to make an operating profit of 7.2 trillion won ($7.1bn; £4.2bn) for the second quarter, down from 9.5 trillion won a year ago.

Samsung said in a statement that it "witnessed a slowdown in the overall smartphone market growth and saw increased competition in the Chinese and some European markets" during the period.

At the same time, a stronger Korean currency also dampened Samsung's earnings during the period; the Korean won rose more than 11% against the US dollar and nearly 7% against the Euro between July 2013 and the end of June this year.

Samsung relies heavily on exports, after which it repatriates the overseas earnings against a stronger Korean won. Samsung has stated that it "cautiously expects a more positive outlook in the third quarter."

In other bad news for Samsung, the company took a forced $36m USD loss in electronics equipment after their Campinas plant in Brazil was robbed by a gang of up to 20 men last night, in which police described was most likely "an inside job."

Source: BBC | Image: Samsung

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The problem with Samsung is they got to greedy.
I know Samsung doesn't read these blogs but here is some advice anyways.
STOP MAKING O MANY PHONE MODELS.

All you need is 3 model. For the low end, the Galaxy Duos. For the mid/highend the Galaxy S and for the top the Galaxy Note.

Do the same with tablets. Just make 2 models - the recently release Galaxy Tab S is a keeper and then the Galaxy Note Pro.

Those are all the phones they need. The S can come in 3 flavors, the Active which is a good idea, and the Mini for those who want a smaller option, but don't skimp on specs. The Note can just stay the same, but double the internal storage to at least 64Gb.

Stop wasting money on making a few thousand cheap phones no one is buying.
As far as the smartphone marking leveling out? I doubt it.

There are 7B people on this planet. 1B have android about 500k have iPhone's. The rest is everyone else. At least half the population still needs a phone of some sort.

Samsung is suffering from market saturation. They have so many devices, that they aren't seeing a return. If they just concentrate on 3 models of phones that is all they need.

If Samsung only sold the Galaxy S and the Note, they would be selling 500,000 phone every year by now. The S would easily double, triple of even quadruple the sales of many other flagships.

People who say Samsung phones suck, are typical just fans of other platforms who basically have no idea what a good phone really is. After all, how can you if you keep buying feature phones every year with fruity logos on the back.

Hi_XPecTa_Chens said,
The problem with Samsung is they got to greedy.
I know Samsung doesn't read these blogs but here is some advice anyways.
STOP MAKING O MANY PHONE MODELS.

All you need is 3 model. For the low end, the Galaxy Duos. For the mid/highend the Galaxy S and for the top the Galaxy Note.

Do the same with tablets. Just make 2 models - the recently release Galaxy Tab S is a keeper and then the Galaxy Note Pro.

Those are all the phones they need. The S can come in 3 flavors, the Active which is a good idea, and the Mini for those who want a smaller option, but don't skimp on specs. The Note can just stay the same, but double the internal storage to at least 64Gb.

Stop wasting money on making a few thousand cheap phones no one is buying.
As far as the smartphone marking leveling out? I doubt it.

There are 7B people on this planet. 1B have android about 500k have iPhone's. The rest is everyone else. At least half the population still needs a phone of some sort.

Samsung is suffering from market saturation. They have so many devices, that they aren't seeing a return. If they just concentrate on 3 models of phones that is all they need.

If Samsung only sold the Galaxy S and the Note, they would be selling 500,000 phone every year by now. The S would easily double, triple of even quadruple the sales of many other flagships.

People who say Samsung phones suck, are typical just fans of other platforms who basically have no idea what a good phone really is. After all, how can you if you keep buying feature phones every year with fruity logos on the back.

I hope you realize that their profits would not go down if the sales of low end models were down as much. It's the sales of their high end phones that can impact these numbers the most.

People will buy low end androids no matter what. But if you don't make much improvements to your high end phones your numbers will suffer.

stevan said,

I hope you realize that their profits would not go down if the sales of low end models were down as much. It's the sales of their high end phones that can impact these numbers the most.

People will buy low end androids no matter what. But if you don't make much improvements to your high end phones your numbers will suffer.

Yes and No. In principle what you said is exactly right. In this case with Samsung I don't think it applies. Here is why. The sales on Samsung's flagships have improved year over year. They sold 50M+ GS3's, they sold 70M GS4's in just 6 months. I don't have a years tally on the S4, But I am sure it exceeds 90M easy. All of the recent Galaxy Notes also increase in sales. In fact the Note 3 sales exceeded both the first and second model combined and its still selling.

I know the GS5 sales were pretty high, but I haven't seen any numbers.

But Samsung is suffering from market saturation. To many models, to many markets trying to sell a phone to everyone.

All they need is 3 model. One for the low end, one for the mid and one for the high end. The Duo for the low, the S in the middle, the Note at the top. Stop making 20 versions of the Galaxy. The branding has been hurt because Galaxy thanks to the S is seen as a flagship. They should have used that branding on the low end.

If Samsung only made one phone the S, it would certainly outsell any single model. However, for the Samsung Electronics, one phone simply isn't enough to sustain a division of that size, especially since Samsung Electronics is not helped in anyway by Samsung LTD. They mush make enough money to sustain their part of the company. One phone simply won't make them enough cash.

The low end in this case is hurting Samsung.

Hi_XPecTa_Chens said,

Yes and No. In principle what you said is exactly right. In this case with Samsung I don't think it applies. Here is why. The sales on Samsung's flagships have improved year over year. They sold 50M+ GS3's, they sold 70M GS4's in just 6 months. I don't have a years tally on the S4, But I am sure it exceeds 90M easy. All of the recent Galaxy Notes also increase in sales. In fact the Note 3 sales exceeded both the first and second model combined and its still selling.

I know the GS5 sales were pretty high, but I haven't seen any numbers.

But Samsung is suffering from market saturation. To many models, to many markets trying to sell a phone to everyone.

All they need is 3 model. One for the low end, one for the mid and one for the high end. The Duo for the low, the S in the middle, the Note at the top. Stop making 20 versions of the Galaxy. The branding has been hurt because Galaxy thanks to the S is seen as a flagship. They should have used that branding on the low end.

If Samsung only made one phone the S, it would certainly outsell any single model. However, for the Samsung Electronics, one phone simply isn't enough to sustain a division of that size, especially since Samsung Electronics is not helped in anyway by Samsung LTD. They mush make enough money to sustain their part of the company. One phone simply won't make them enough cash.

The low end in this case is hurting Samsung.

Sorry but that's wrong. You make the majority of money on high end and you loose the majority of money on high end. Analysts were expecting the sales of S5 to be lower. Now that's not a fact but it would go hand in hand with what Samsung is reporting.

It's common sense that competition is the low end can't hit your profits 25%, but a drop of sales in the high end will.

Astra.Xtreme said,
Maybe people are finally sick of Samsung's garbage software. LG has had much better Android products for years now.
You mean that useful garbage that no other Android phone has? It has better display, better cameras, better audio, better features? That garbage?

Astra.Xtreme said,
Maybe people are finally sick of Samsung's garbage software. LG has had much better Android products for years now.
You wouldn't know a good phone is it slapped you in the face.

Hi_XPecTa_Chens said,
You mean that useful garbage that no other Android phone has? It has better display, better cameras, better audio, better features? That garbage?

The S5 has one speaker, so nothing remarkable to say about it. The screen has terrible color reproduction and mediocre brightness, so it absolutely doesn't have a remarkable screen. The only plus is that it's big. The camera has been tested to death and is almost identical in quality to the iPhone 5S. Features? Like what?

It's pretty laughable if you think that Touchwiz is a good piece of software.
Stock Android runs massively better.

Hi_XPecTa_Chens said,
You wouldn't know a good phone is it slapped you in the face.

Another one of your brilliant opinions... Sorry, but your opinion is worthless to anybody except your own selfless ego...

Astra.Xtreme said,

The S5 has one speaker, so nothing remarkable to say about it. The screen has terrible color reproduction and mediocre brightness, so it absolutely doesn't have a remarkable screen. The only plus is that it's big. The camera has been tested to death and is almost identical in quality to the iPhone 5S. Features? Like what?

It's pretty laughable if you think that Touchwiz is a good piece of software.
Stock Android runs massively better.

Again, as I stated as an opinion which you have now proven as fact, you wouldn't know a good phone is it slapped you in the face.

Several tech blogs have report that the display on the Galaxy S 5 is the best one on a smart phone to date... THAT IS FACT.

The 16MP shooter is the best in its class for this phone genre. To get something better you need a Lumia. Even the HTC One's terrible 4MP junk pales. Taking better pics in low light means nothing. Most people don't take pics in the dark, they simply don't.

First off, let me be frank; I don't like TouchWiz. My first time using it on a Droid Charge, it was terrible. But that phone also had terrible specs. However, any Galaxy device that has ICS or better TouchWiz has improved. I like it more now than before, but I would be happy with it or not. But see that is what is great about Android. TouchWiz is just a launcher, I can download my own.

TouchWiz however does offer nicer features over phones with stock android that I find very useful based on MY usage. Example, when I need screenshots, swiping my hand is faster than pressing 2 buttons, smart stay always works and its nice the display doesn't turn off while I am reading, the S5 is IP67 certified against water and dust damage, the new flatten UI is nice and fast, the browser is still faster than any on any device including iPhone all models.

What Samsung did was got to gimmicky with to many features that were useless and yes did bog down the UI, well so did HTC with Sense which I use to love. While many say TouchWIz is cartoony in looks with funny color schemes, look at the iOS UI now. It looks like Disney got in and colored the UI.

My Note 3 blows the iPhone 5S out the water in daily usage for the thinsg that matter to me.

But unlike you, I can see past the bad because every phone no matter which one you like will have more good things vs bad. I don't focus on any bad. I don't consider useless features as bad per se, when I can turn them off.

Oif you don't like Samsung phones, I have no problem with that. I had iPhones before and IMO all of them after the 3GS have sucked in more ways that one which is why I switched. But unlike you, I am platform agnostic. I don't think any OS is any better or worse per se. Whoever has what I need I switch. PERIOD. IOS was fun for games, I don't play games on phones that much. The 2 I do play, look better on my device thanks to full HD and vivid colors. Not gonna go blind trying to look at the itty bitty screen on some phones that try to cram a high res into a smaller space. Its stupid and a complete waste of money.

Even with the iPhone finally growing in size, its to late in my opinion. Its to late in that they criticized everyone else and now they are doing the exact same thing. And now all the hypocrites are out in droves talking about how great the iPhone 6 is going to be. I cant get excited because the things the next iPhone is getting has been avail everywhere else since 2009.

Its not the size of the phone that counts, but what it does with its power and size; and for my money the iPhone lacks in more ways that matter to me.

Hi_XPecTa_Chens said,
Again, as I stated as an opinion which you have now proven as fact, you wouldn't know a good phone is it slapped you in the face.

Several tech blogs have report that the display on the Galaxy S 5 is the best one on a smart phone to date... THAT IS FACT.

The 16MP shooter is the best in its class for this phone genre. To get something better you need a Lumia. Even the HTC One's terrible 4MP junk pales. Taking better pics in low light means nothing. Most people don't take pics in the dark, they simply don't.

First off, let me be frank; I don't like TouchWiz. My first time using it on a Droid Charge, it was terrible. But that phone also had terrible specs. However, any Galaxy device that has ICS or better TouchWiz has improved. I like it more now than before, but I would be happy with it or not. But see that is what is great about Android. TouchWiz is just a launcher, I can download my own.

TouchWiz however does offer nicer features over phones with stock android that I find very useful based on MY usage. Example, when I need screenshots, swiping my hand is faster than pressing 2 buttons, smart stay always works and its nice the display doesn't turn off while I am reading, the S5 is IP67 certified against water and dust damage, the new flatten UI is nice and fast, the browser is still faster than any on any device including iPhone all models.

What Samsung did was got to gimmicky with to many features that were useless and yes did bog down the UI, well so did HTC with Sense which I use to love. While many say TouchWIz is cartoony in looks with funny color schemes, look at the iOS UI now. It looks like Disney got in and colored the UI.

My Note 3 blows the iPhone 5S out the water in daily usage for the thinsg that matter to me.

But unlike you, I can see past the bad because every phone no matter which one you like will have more good things vs bad. I don't focus on any bad. I don't consider useless features as bad per se, when I can turn them off.

Oif you don't like Samsung phones, I have no problem with that. I had iPhones before and IMO all of them after the 3GS have sucked in more ways that one which is why I switched. But unlike you, I am platform agnostic. I don't think any OS is any better or worse per se. Whoever has what I need I switch. PERIOD. IOS was fun for games, I don't play games on phones that much. The 2 I do play, look better on my device thanks to full HD and vivid colors. Not gonna go blind trying to look at the itty bitty screen on some phones that try to cram a high res into a smaller space. Its stupid and a complete waste of money.

Even with the iPhone finally growing in size, its to late in my opinion. Its to late in that they criticized everyone else and now they are doing the exact same thing. And now all the hypocrites are out in droves talking about how great the iPhone 6 is going to be. I cant get excited because the things the next iPhone is getting has been avail everywhere else since 2009.

Its not the size of the phone that counts, but what it does with its power and size; and for my money the iPhone lacks in more ways that matter to me.

Blah blah blah... another one of your novels of unbacked opinions. It's not even worth reading since it's nothing but your blind thoughts. We've all read the million reviews and none of them claim it's an amazing phone. It has major flaws on both the hardware and software. You're not fooling anybody...

In theory this makes sense, a lot of people are waiting to see what the iPhone 6 brings before purchasing a new phone. Also, the entire market is starting to flatten, and it seems that this will become the norm. People aren't switching phones every 6 months to a a year any more, this is similar to whats happened with the PC/Mac industry.

Samsung haters gonna hate.

In my case, i love my Note 3, however (and it is the big difference with Apple's users), i don't mind switching in the future over Apple or WP or LG if it suits my needing. I buy my Note3 because i was able to buy it for a cheap (and unlocked) and i liked the features and nothing more.

tablet sales sliding, smart phone growth capping, and PC growth resuming. I think that was about it for the POST-PC world huh.

neonspark said,
tablet sales sliding, smart phone growth capping, and PC growth resuming. I think that was about it for the POST-PC world huh.

Umm, if you actually looking beyond Samsung you will see that the smartphone market is still growing, as is the tablet market. And pc market is rebounding but not seeing much growth. So, wrong on all accounts.

Can't go "post PC" until you can put 4 Nvidia GTX Titans into your smartphone... and by the time you can, we'll have the Nvidia GTX Goliath, which is 170 more times powerful than the Titan.

Apple will also slow down next quarter, I believe it's already forecasted. But Apple has new phones in next quarter whereas Samsung just release new ones few months ago. That's the worrying part about Samsung.

It's funny how people make fun of Apple for just having the iPhone when Samsung has more models. Look at what happened now...

unfortunately for apple, they are still losing the war on phones and the tablet space is following the phone trend. one quarter will not turn the tables around for apple which seems unable to catch the glory days of steve jobs.

neonspark said,
unfortunately for apple, they are still losing the war on phones and the tablet space is following the phone trend. one quarter will not turn the tables around for apple which seems unable to catch the glory days of steve jobs.

They have always been loosing the war on phones and tablets. We all knew ios will have a small Marketshare compared to android. But they win hands down in their ecosystem, sell more phones and tablets each year and take most profits.

As long as Apple's profits increase year over year, they won't give a damn about marketshare. Since the beginning, they've always been about offering high quality and high margin products. They don't flood the market with garbage like Samsung does, and that's a good thing.

stevan said,
Apple will also slow down next quarter, I believe it's already forecasted. But Apple has new phones in next quarter whereas Samsung just release new ones few months ago. That's the worrying part about Samsung.

It's funny how people make fun of Apple for just having the iPhone when Samsung has more models. Look at what happened now...

Samsung has lots of phones. They have one flagship device which still only comes out each year. What does the S have to do with other phones? Everyone cant buy a high-end device.

After all, if everyone could have a highend device, Apple would have sold more than 150M phones in 2013.

stevan said,

They have always been loosing the war on phones and tablets. We all knew ios will have a small Marketshare compared to android. But they win hands down in their ecosystem, sell more phones and tablets each year and take most profits.

Profits aren't everything. Apple spends the least money vs almost any Android OEM. Samsung actually has to make their phones, that cost money. Samsung has a much larger distribution channel, that costs money. Samsung sells through more carriers and more countries vs Apple, which all cost more money. Samsung makes close to half of the parts in their phone, which also cost them money. Apple doesn't make anything that goes into their devices. Apple branded is not equal to Apple manufactured. Apple doesn't make chips, they design them. Samsung does both.

I do agree that Samsung making a lot of phones is not good. But then again, Samsung has equal brand regonition as Apple and Samsung phones are avail in more places in the world. Most people in other countries can't afford an iPhone. What other option do they have now that Nokia is basically a non-contender? All that is left is Samsung and a few others.

I also think new comers like Huwei (wrong spelling I am sure), ZTE and others are starting to cut into a lot of Samsung low end sales in certain markets, especially in Asia and Europe.

Hi_XPecTa_Chens said,
Profits aren't everything. Apple spends the least money vs almost any Android OEM. Samsung actually has to make their phones, that cost money. Samsung has a much larger distribution channel, that costs money. Samsung sells through more carriers and more countries vs Apple, which all cost more money. Samsung makes close to half of the parts in their phone, which also cost them money. Apple doesn't make anything that goes into their devices. Apple branded is not equal to Apple manufactured. Apple doesn't make chips, they design them. Samsung does both.

I do agree that Samsung making a lot of phones is not good. But then again, Samsung has equal brand regonition as Apple and Samsung phones are avail in more places in the world. Most people in other countries can't afford an iPhone. What other option do they have now that Nokia is basically a non-contender? All that is left is Samsung and a few others.

I also think new comers like Huwei (wrong spelling I am sure), ZTE and others are starting to cut into a lot of Samsung low end sales in certain markets, especially in Asia and Europe.

I'm sorry for saying this but you are not very smart. The first part of this essay is complete nonsense.

Designing something costs money as well. You also have to pay someone to build it.

You realize that Samsung pays itself less than what Apple would to make it for them. You really don't get how the world works.

Apple has highest budgets in the entire smartphone industry. The only place Samsung beats them is advertising which doesn't seen to be working well for them lately.

Hi_XPecTa_Chens said,
Profits aren't everything.

Actually profits are everything, especially in a publicly traded company. Profit is the most fundamental piece of any business and any business that doesn't recognize that, doesn't last long.

Ask those Samsung investors how they feel about that 24% profit decline...

Astra.Xtreme said,

Actually profits are everything, especially in a publicly traded company. Profit is the most fundamental piece of any business and any business that doesn't recognize that, doesn't last long.

Ask those Samsung investors how they feel about that 24% profit decline...

Spot on.

Slow market growth? Its your phones Samsung. They are getting as dull and boring as you are. All that gimmicky crap you put on your devices didnt help much and TW is a major contributor of lag on your devices.

techbeck said,
Slow market growth? Its your phones Samsung. They are getting as dull and boring as you are. All that gimmicky crap you put on your devices didnt help much and TW is a major contributor of lag on your devices.

Which model is lagging?. which model is boring?.

It is the main difference with Apple, Samsung has several models so you will never get tired with a model, do you want a cheap one? or a big one?, or a powerful one?, they have it. Apple instead has two models, an expensive one and a plastic one.

Brony said,

Which model is lagging?. which model is boring?.

It is the main difference with Apple, Samsung has several models so you will never get tired with a model, do you want a cheap one? or a big one?, or a powerful one?, they have it. Apple instead has two models, an expensive one and a plastic one.

Expensive compared to what? Last I checked the iPhones were priced the same or less than the Samsung upper-tier phones.

Brony said,
Which model is lagging?. which model is boring?.

It is the main difference with Apple, Samsung has several models so you will never get tired with a model, do you want a cheap one? or a big one?, or a powerful one?, they have it. Apple instead has two models, an expensive one and a plastic one.


Why can no one be critical of Samsung or Microsoft without someone jumping in to talk about Apple?

Techbeck, as far as I've known him, is largely an Android user. Why should either of us care about what Apple is doing??

It's bothersome that the anti-Apple folks seem to talk about Apple more than anyone else. We get it, Apple sucks, but what does that have to do with the context of what's being said? Can we go five minutes without talking about Apple?

I don't mean to jump on you, but it's becoming such a common trend on Neowin...

dead.cell said,

Techbeck, as far as I've known him, is largely an Android user. Why should either of us care about what Apple is doing??

I mostly use Microsoft products. Then Google. Then Apple.

Astra.Xtreme said,

Expensive compared to what? Last I checked the iPhones were priced the same or less than the Samsung upper-tier phones.

Price doesn't tell the whole story does it.
Now that iPhone's are sold on retail, they can be more readily compared.

Just because an iPhone equal price, doesn't mean you are getting equal value. The 16GB iPhone off contract is $650, so is the Note 3 for example. On contract, the carriers chose to not subsidize as much on the Android device. Hasn't slowed the sales much though.

Hi_XPecTa_Chens said,
Price doesn't tell the whole story does it.
Now that iPhone's are sold on retail, they can be more readily compared.

Just because an iPhone equal price, doesn't mean you are getting equal value. The 16GB iPhone off contract is $650, so is the Note 3 for example. On contract, the carriers chose to not subsidize as much on the Android device. Hasn't slowed the sales much though.

Try again...
The Note 3 is near $800 off contract and $300 with contract. Both considerably more expensive than the iPhone.

Astra.Xtreme said,

Try again...
The Note 3 is near $800 off contract and $300 with contract. Both considerably more expensive than the iPhone.

Astra you're on fire today buddy. I hope you serve burn medicine with your posts. Well done.

stevan said,

Astra you're on fire today buddy. I hope you serve burn medicine with your posts. Well done.

Haha, yeah while it made for good humor, I feel a little dumb for wasting that much of my time. Oh well. :)

Astra.Xtreme said,

Try again...
The Note 3 is near $800 off contract and $300 with contract. Both considerably more expensive than the iPhone.

To be fare, you get more hardware with the Note 3. And off contract prices I have seen are around $600 - $700 for the Note on Verizon. Guess it depends on where you can get it.

Edited by techbeck, Jul 8 2014, 10:19pm :

Astra.Xtreme said,

Expensive compared to what? Last I checked the iPhones were priced the same or less than the Samsung upper-tier phones.

Maybe expensive compared to what you can get elsewhere. I agree, the iPhone is no more expensive than Samsung or anyone else for a flagship model.

But it is expensive compared to many phones that still offer more than an iPhone at a better price on or off contract. Example, even though I personally don't like Google Nexus devices, they are cheaper than any iPhone on or off contract and they still over some better capabilities without massive specs. After all, massive specs mean nothing if you don't even have software to show off what those specs can do.

Even an older Galaxy S 3 for example will still give the 5S a run for its money. It has a HD display, the iPhone still doesn't. It takes better pictures, it larger in size without being to big, has near equal battery-life and the device simply offers things that Apple has turned its back on.

Iphone 6 is an iPhone 5s with a bigger screen (and two flavors no less this time). iPhone 6 will also be (substantially) more expensive.

It is no secret Apple sales for new models is slowing down year over year. their huge numbers come from the older models which are ' free'.

paulheu said,
Iphone 6 is an iPhone 5s with a bigger screen (and two flavors no less this time). iPhone 6 will also be (substantially) more expensive.

It is no secret Apple sales for new models is slowing down year over year. their huge numbers come from the older models which are ' free'.

I dont understand your point. Apple has not announced their third profit warning in a row. Does Apple break down individual phone model sales numbers? Where are your facts coming from and what are you saying?

I'm by no means an Apple fan boy, just got rid of my iPhone for a Z1 Compact but your statement about the upcoming iPhone 6 just being a bigger iPhone 5S is stupid. Of course its a bigger iPhone just like the Galaxy S5 is a bigger phone than the S4, s**t what we you expecting them to release a round phone next time round.

paulheu said,
Iphone 6 is an iPhone 5s with a bigger screen (and two flavors no less this time). iPhone 6 will also be (substantially) more expensive.

It is no secret Apple sales for new models is slowing down year over year. their huge numbers come from the older models which are ' free'.

That would make no sense since they see growth or at least even profits. Math doesn't add up in your post.

paulheu said,
Iphone 6 is an iPhone 5s with a bigger screen (and two flavors no less this time). iPhone 6 will also be (substantially) more expensive.

It is no secret Apple sales for new models is slowing down year over year. their huge numbers come from the older models which are ' free'.

Umm... where did you pull that opinion from? Last I checked, there were 9 million of the new iPhones sold in their opening weekend. And you were saying...

paulheu said,
Iphone 6 is an iPhone 5s with a bigger screen (and two flavors no less this time). iPhone 6 will also be (substantially) more expensive.

It is no secret Apple sales for new models is slowing down year over year. their huge numbers come from the older models which are ' free'.

That is 100% correct.

When Apple first released the iPhone 5, several carriers stated that the iPhone 4S still had higher sales and it took nearly 3 quarters for the iPhone 5 sales to finally pass the 4S sales.

stevan said,

That would make no sense since they see growth or at least even profits. Math doesn't add up in your post.

It does make sense. Again why don't you stop and actually think. We already know you're a fan of Apple, but you dismiss every factual point people bring up.

What YOU pay the carrier for the phone on contract is not what the phone cost them. Facts show that for at least 2 quarters after a new iPhone is released, the previous model still has the highest sales.

Here ever Raymond James commented on this - http://bgr.com/2013/03/11/ipho...-lifetime-sales-est-368459/

Even tho the iPhone 5 has record breaking pre-order sales over the iPhone 4S, it sales didn't remain at that pace for very long. In fact several carriers report for over 6 months, the iPhone 4S was still outselling the 5.

More proof here - http://bgr.com/2012/12/14/iphone-5-sales-iphone-4s/

When Apple releases a new phone, carriers subsidize more of the price, so the price appears lower to you.. When those carriers ordered their iPhone 4S models, they order a significant quantity. Apple requires they pay for all of them upfront. once they are sold to them, APple has made their money. If you get an iphone for $99 or free, it si because the carrier is subsidizing more of the cost to give you that lower cost, which they make up with data plans and other services. I'm sure you know this.

In fact, when the iPhone 4S was release, the iPhone 4 continued to outsell the 4S for several months. Even while the 5/5S were on sell, didn't Apple bring back the iPhone 4 to India?

This is why Apple beaver reports iPhone sales by model, if they did you would get a huge surprise.

Lets talk about those numbers you keep speaking of. Apple sold 150M iPhones that is based on 4 selling model in the year 2013. That includes the resurrected iPhone 4. With 2 older models selling plus the new model, for the first several months the older model which cost less will sell more especially in other countries outside the USA.

Why don't you acknowledge the fact the poster was right. Just because APple makes more money year over year has nothing to do with the fact. The facst show that even tho APple does sell more devices over the previous year, they are not selling as many over the previous year as they were before. And even with 4 selling models, they can't sell enough to compete against other platforms where more than one OEM uses the same OS.

Apple marketshare with the iPhone is falling, and yes they are increasing sales. But those sells are low compared to multiple OEM's using one OS.

Again as per usual you dismiss surrounding facts that suppor peoples areguments. Same with the iPad. Apple only sold 1M more iPads this time around versus last year. Yes they sold more, yes they made more money, but they still lost marketshare and they didn't have a huge gap in sales over the previous year. It is easy to sell 1M tablets for Apple. But that is all they sold over the previous year even with a new model that isn't even new at all.

You need to stop treating people like you do. Just because you want to cheerlead for apple certainly doesn't make you right all the time. You are so quick to dismiss anyone who doesn't agree with how you see things. For every good side there is another side.

The iPhone fad has worn off significantly due to lots of reasons. One the iPhone hasn't changed much in 7 models. Other OEM's have saturated the market to the point the iPhone is no longer growing its marketshare, features and a capabilities people want now are on other devices and people are buying them at a rate of 4 to 1 over iPhone. Over 1M activations of Android devices everyday for a full year nearly doubles iOS device activations.

Whether facts are in your favor or not, you fans need to accept them.

Hi_XPecTa_Chens said,
That is 100% correct.

When Apple first released the iPhone 5, several carriers stated that the iPhone 4S still had higher sales and it took nearly 3 quarters for the iPhone 5 sales to finally pass the 4S sales.

How is that correct? The 5 sold 5 million in the opening weekend. The 5S and 5C sold 9 million in the opening weekend. That and the FACT that Apples sales are increasing year over year. Are you just that ignorant, or just too lazy to look at the numbers?

These are enough to prove that you're full of sh*t like usual...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sci...records-launch-weekend.html
http://www.theverge.com/2014/1...0106/apple-q1-2014-earnings
http://www.statisticbrain.com/iphone-5s-sales-statistics/ (old data)

Astra.Xtreme said,

How is that correct? The 5 sold 5 million in the opening weekend. The 5S and 5C sold 9 million in the opening weekend. That and the FACT that Apples sales are increasing year over year. Are you just that ignorant, or just too lazy to look at the numbers?

These are enough to prove that you're full of sh*t like usual...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sci...records-launch-weekend.html
http://www.theverge.com/2014/1...0106/apple-q1-2014-earnings
http://www.statisticbrain.com/iphone-5s-sales-statistics/ (old data)

What? Go read the facts. Apple stated, they sold 9M iPhones on the opening weekend. Here is the facts. The iPhone 5C was release before the 5S. A breakdown shows that between the 5C release and the 5S release, Apple only sold 2M iPhone 5C's. Right after that in the next quarter, Apple drop manufacturing of the 5C to 1/2. It was widely reported. The 5S yes took off as Apple said they would increase manufacturing on the 5S.

PREORDER SALES DONT REPRESENT THE WHO YEAR. Appel sold 150M iPhones as a whole in 2013. Do you agree or not? That 9M means nothing. There are 12 months in a sales year. Not one month.

Edited by Hi_XPecTa_Chens, Jul 8 2014, 7:11pm :

Hi_XPecTa_Chens said,
What? Go read the facts. Apple stated, they sold 9M iPhones on the opening weekend. Here is the facts. The iPhone 5C was release before the 5S. A breakdown shows that between the 5C release and the 5S release, Apple only sold 2M iPhone 5C's. Right after that in the next quarter, Apple drop manufacturing of the 5C to 1/2. It was widely reported. The 5S yes took off as Apple said they would increase manufacturing on the 5S.

PREORDER SALES DONT REPRESENT THE WHO YEAR. Appel sold 150M iPhones as a whole in 2013. Do you agree or not? That 9M means nothing. There are 12 months in a sales year. Not one month.

And? Was there a point in there somewhere? Clearly you didn't even bother to look at the numbers yet again...

Not sure why I waste my time with a brick wall, but I'll have one more whack at it.
Q1 Sales: 51 Million
Q2 Sales: 43.7 Million
For reference:
Q3 2013 Sales: 31.2 Million
Q4 2013 Sales: 33.8 Million

You know basic math, right?
If Apple would do so insanely poorly in the last half of the year that they only match last years sales numbers, they would still smash the 2013 sales as a whole. Common sense and how the trend currently looks would say that they are on track for a huge increase in sales this year.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/...as-iphone-still-strong.html
http://investor.apple.com/results.cfm

So I'll ask you again... are you simply ignorant or just too lazy to look at the numbers?

Astra.Xtreme said,

How is that correct? The 5 sold 5 million in the opening weekend. The 5S and 5C sold 9 million in the opening weekend. That and the FACT that Apples sales are increasing year over year. Are you just that ignorant, or just too lazy to look at the numbers?

These are enough to prove that you're full of sh*t like usual...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sci...records-launch-weekend.html
http://www.theverge.com/2014/1...0106/apple-q1-2014-earnings
http://www.statisticbrain.com/iphone-5s-sales-statistics/ (old data)

READING AND COMPREHENSION FAILURE!

The poster said the following:
"It is no secret Apple sales for new models is slowing down year over year. their huge numbers come from the older models which are ' free'."

Stevan says:

"That would make no sense since they see growth or at least even profits. Math doesn't add up in your post."

I stated the previous poster was correct based on this very simple fact - Apple releases a new phone in the last quarter of the year, which is Apple's first quarter for their fiscal year. Those sales in 3 months, will not exceed a previous model that has been selling for 8 months. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE.

When a fiscal year is ended, it runs from January 1 to December 31st...PERIOD. No matter when Apple counts it. From Sept to Dec, Apple is not going to sell more or a new phone vs a previously selling model and, since the other models drop in cost they retain high sales for a full quarter more. Apple even report that it took 2 quarters for the iPhone 5 sales to finally past the iPhone 4S sales.

WE AREN"T TALKING PREORDER SALES DUDE. LEARN TO READ BEFORE YOU CALL SOMEONE IGNORANT.

Hi_XPecTa_Chens said,

READING AND COMPREHENSION FAILURE!

The poster said the following:
"It is no secret Apple sales for new models is slowing down year over year. their huge numbers come from the older models which are ' free'."

Stevan says:

"That would make no sense since they see growth or at least even profits. Math doesn't add up in your post."

I stated the previous poster was correct based on this very simple fact - Apple releases a new phone in the last quarter of the year, which is Apple's first quarter for their fiscal year. Those sales in 3 months, will not exceed a previous model that has been selling for 8 months. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE.

When a fiscal year is ended, it runs from January 1 to December 31st...PERIOD. No matter when Apple counts it. From Sept to Dec, Apple is not going to sell more or a new phone vs a previously selling model and, since the other models drop in cost they retain high sales for a full quarter more. Apple even report that it took 2 quarters for the iPhone 5 sales to finally past the iPhone 4S sales.

WE AREN"T TALKING PREORDER SALES DUDE. LEARN TO READ BEFORE YOU CALL SOMEONE IGNORANT.

*facepalm* Wow, just wow. Do you even listen to yourself? I think it's up to 5 times now that you don't read what I post and simply reply with meaningless ramble... And you think I fail at reading comprehension? This is hilariously pathetic...

I've posted discreet hard numbers multiple times now. FACTS. And yet you're still completely clueless about what I'm presenting. So very sad...

None of this matters because Apple is not issuing profit warnings because of slowing sales. Samsung is. Whatever Apple is doing is working, whatever Samsung is doing is not working.

derekaw said,
None of this matters because Apple is not issuing profit warnings because of slowing sales. Samsung is. Whatever Apple is doing is working, whatever Samsung is doing is not working.

Apple issued profit guidance already. Stop the bs already.

Astra.Xtreme said,

*facepalm* Wow, just wow. Do you even listen to yourself? I think it's up to 5 times now that you don't read what I post and simply reply with meaningless ramble... And you think I fail at reading comprehension? This is hilariously pathetic...

I've posted discreet hard numbers multiple times now. FACTS. And yet you're still completely clueless about what I'm presenting. So very sad...

Don't loose your nerves over him, he simply doesn't get it. He switches the topic every time he gets proved wrong. Thinking that the majority of sales are older phones which are sold for "free" when sales and profits are going up is a fail at grade 9 math.

Astra.Xtreme said,

*facepalm* Wow, just wow. Do you even listen to yourself? I think it's up to 5 times now that you don't read what I post and simply reply with meaningless ramble... And you think I fail at reading comprehension? This is hilariously pathetic...

I've posted discreet hard numbers multiple times now. FACTS. And yet you're still completely clueless about what I'm presenting. So very sad...

What you posted was BS. It wasn't even a direct response to what the guy even said. He wasn't taking about pre-order sales. What Apple sales in 3 months doesn't represent a full year.

The poster stated that Apple's Year over years of the iPhone were dropping which is fact. Compare, When Apple first released the iPhone 4, it has a significant amount of sales over the previous year model. After that Year over year sales of the iPhone have fallen from where they were for the 4 and 4S. That si simply fact. Just like iPad sales have also fallen. Last time I heard it announced, Apple had only sold 1M more iPads than it had sold the previous year for the same time frame. That 1M sales is lower than they were the previous year for year over year sales.

Your reading and comprehension is a failure as you don't even directly answer a post you call yourself reply too.

Is is a direct quote from the guys post again:

"It is no secret Apple sales for new models is slowing down year over year. their huge numbers come from the older models which are ' free'."

The key words bro is YEAR OVER YEAR. HE said NOTHING ABOUT PREORDER SALES.

There are 365 days in a year...there aren't 365 days in a month or 2.

***FACEPALM*** - Holy blind as a bat - Batman

Hi_XPecTa_Chens said,
What you posted was BS. It wasn't even a direct response to what the guy even said. He wasn't taking about pre-order sales. What Apple sales in 3 months doesn't represent a full year.

The poster stated that Apple's Year over years of the iPhone were dropping which is fact. Compare, When Apple first released the iPhone 4, it has a significant amount of sales over the previous year model. After that Year over year sales of the iPhone have fallen from where they were for the 4 and 4S. That si simply fact. Just like iPad sales have also fallen. Last time I heard it announced, Apple had only sold 1M more iPads than it had sold the previous year for the same time frame. That 1M sales is lower than they were the previous year for year over year sales.

Your reading and comprehension is a failure as you don't even directly answer a post you call yourself reply too.

Is is a direct quote from the guys post again:

"It is no secret Apple sales for new models is slowing down year over year. their huge numbers come from the older models which are ' free'."

The key words bro is YEAR OVER YEAR. HE said NOTHING ABOUT PREORDER SALES.

There are 365 days in a year...there aren't 365 days in a month or 2.

***FACEPALM*** - Holy blind as a bat - Batman

Omg this is the 2nd dumbest post from you after claiming that a Fortune 500 company is one with 500 workers. These are the words of an analyst, key word being analyst:

The analyst believes that lifetime sales of the handset will likely be respectable, but he outlines three reasons why iPhone 5 sales will ultimately be disappointing relative to initial expectations.

It's just his opinion which has been proven wrong by several websites.

Are you going to claim that analyst predictions are now facts? Look at how many people are starting to call you out on your stupidity.

amnesiality said,
The world would be a better place without Samsung's cheap, crappy, overpriced and laggy phones.
There's nothing cheap, crappy or laggy about my Galaxy Note 3.

amnesiality said,
The world would be a better place without Samsung's cheap, crappy, overpriced and laggy phones.

I will only agree to that if you are talking about the original firmware...... If you want a better experience, then custom roms are the way to go...... My S4 voided warranty on the first day I bought it.

Overpriced? Slightly I would say.... then again, my country currency had rocked bottomed, so it's overpriced for all phones in my country.....

amnesiality said,
The world would be a better place without Samsung's cheap, crappy, overpriced and laggy phones.

Personally I'd like them to push tizen. kick google to the curb as the middle man they are and take hold of their own destiny. few, if anybody picks android. it just comes with the samsung device. it stands to follow that samsung has all it takes to usher the next dominant mobile OS and this time, it will not be tied in any way to the agenda of a western company playing rivals against each other.

neonspark said,

Personally I'd like them to push tizen. kick google to the curb as the middle man they are and take hold of their own destiny. few, if anybody picks android. it just comes with the samsung device. it stands to follow that samsung has all it takes to usher the next dominant mobile OS and this time, it will not be tied in any way to the agenda of a western company playing rivals against each other.

I think they should go with OS/2 Warp.

amnesiality said,
The world would be a better place without Samsung's cheap, crappy, overpriced and laggy phones.
I have a Note 3, it is certainly not laggy. And every iPhone running iOS 7 is laggy even after Apple tried to update the performance issues, it is still very laggy and the battery dies even faster than before.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=iPhone+5S+lag - there are over 96,000 results for lag on all models of the iPhone running iOS 7

Now to be fair, when I searched Android lag, I got 108,000 hits. However in the videos you will see, the laggy devices they show were not Samsung devices. Many were also older devices.

Also to be even more fair, a computer that has full multi-tasking and a bundle of features can be slightly slower than a computer with less capability and features. Even though mu Note's GPU has to push millions of more pixels vs an iPhone, it still does many things way faster. Web browsing is faster, apps open faster, scrolling on a web page is faster and I don't get those checker board squares either. One flick and I can almost scroll and entire webpage while on the iPhone you cant. The type on the display is sharper, clearer, easier to read since its bigger and more.

Just because YORU car may have a bigger engine, doesn't mean it runs more efficient. After all, my device has a quadcore CPU and you have a dual core in the iPhone, and yet I get better battery-life, faster charging, I can draw/write with a real stylus and more.

theyarecomingforyou said,
There's nothing cheap, crappy or laggy about my Galaxy Note 3.
The iPhone 5S with its 64Bit chip is still laggier than any phone I've ever used under Android. Videos prove it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY-KuPhC0Y0 - The iPhone 5S vs an older Nexus device which has lesser hardware capability, yet it was not laggy compared to the iPhone which is a recent model and running a recent OS version.

I expect Apple will have their biggest year ever with the iPhone 6. This looks like a Samsung thing and the word Karma comes to mind.

I give you this, apple will not YET slip in the sub 10% global market share this year, but after the fad of the big iphone wears off in a few months, they will be officially out of tricks to copy from the android OEMs.

A big iphone isn't going to take apple to its past glory days. they are long gone.

neonspark said,
I give you this, apple will not YET slip in the sub 10% global market share this year, but after the fad of the big iphone wears off in a few months, they will be officially out of tricks to copy from the android OEMs.

A big iphone isn't going to take apple to its past glory days. they are long gone.

Dude people have been saying the iPhone fad will wear off for years now. Aren't you tired of being wrong?

stevan said,

Dude people have been saying the iPhone fad will wear off for years now. Aren't you tired of being wrong?


Except he isn't wrong - it is wearing off. According to the statistics, if they can be believed.

Raa said,

Except he isn't wrong - it is wearing off. According to the statistics, if they can be believed.

Which statistic? The slowing down growth or the YOY sales increase?

stevan said,

Which statistic? The slowing down growth or the YOY sales increase?

Windows Phone also has a YOY sales increase but that gets thrown out the window when people say iOS and WP market share is down.

neonspark said,
I give you this, apple will not YET slip in the sub 10% global market share this year, but after the fad of the big iphone wears off in a few months, they will be officially out of tricks to copy from the android OEMs.

A big iphone isn't going to take apple to its past glory days. they are long gone.

I guess you are confusing market share and profits; Android and WP operate in the low, mid and high end segments, Apple in the high end only.

Raa said,

Except he isn't wrong - it is wearing off. According to the statistics, if they can be believed.

Didn't Apple just have their biggest quarter ever in Q1? Aren't they showing growth percentage wise too, despite the increasing market?

Legitimately curious, as my reading and research has shown the opposite of what you're saying...

Cosmocronos said,

I guess you are confusing market share and profits; Android and WP operate in the low, mid and high end segments, Apple in the high end only.

The iPhone is not a highend phone. It just isn't. How can you claim its high end, when there are more than one phone that cost exactly the same that offer more?

I am not talking gimmicks. I am talking useful things. Example. Compare the iPhone 16GB model which is $650 off contract to the Galaxy Note 3 which is also $650 off contract. The first apparent thing you see is the Note has a much larger display, its also brighter and the colors are more vivid. It has a better camera, the display is full HD which is a support industry standard, which the iPhone has never used. The battery lasts long, and even tho the iPhone battery is half the size, it takes double the time to charge. The Note 3 can be fully charged in 2 hours and last a full day and a half on a single charge with average usage.

Metal cases and a fancy logo doesn't make a phone highend. Yes the iPhone has a better GPU, but since the iPhone doesn't have any features to even show it off, it is nothing more than marketing hype. When compared side by side, the iPhone 5S and the Note 3, the Note still offers way more. Triple the RAM, double the storage, expandible storage, open file system and more.

dead.cell said,

Didn't Apple just have their biggest quarter ever in Q1? Aren't they showing growth percentage wise too, despite the increasing market?

Legitimately curious, as my reading and research has shown the opposite of what you're saying...


I would assume most companies say they have their biggest quarters every quarter to please investors.

Having said that, the last few monthly mobile statistics showed Apple had declined, except for last month where Apple picked up 0.6% (Blackberry had dropped the same amount in that time IIRC)

Overall Apple has been in decline in the mobile arena for a while now, I thought it was fairly even between Google/Apple, but apparently not, which was a legitimate surprise to me.

Raa said,

I would assume most companies say they have their biggest quarters every quarter to please investors.

Having said that, the last few monthly mobile statistics showed Apple had declined, except for last month where Apple picked up 0.6% (Blackberry had dropped the same amount in that time IIRC)

Overall Apple has been in decline in the mobile arena for a while now, I thought it was fairly even between Google/Apple, but apparently not, which was a legitimate surprise to me.

Umm, this may also be a surprise to you, but companies can't just say they had the biggest quarter ever. They show numbers in their quarterly conference calls and those numbers can be compared to previous quarters/yearsz

Hi_XPecTa_Chens said,
The iPhone is not a highend phone. It just isn't. How can you claim its high end, when there are more than one phone that cost exactly the same that offer more?

I am not talking gimmicks. I am talking useful things. Example. Compare the iPhone 16GB model which is $650 off contract to the Galaxy Note 3 which is also $650 off contract. The first apparent thing you see is the Note has a much larger display, its also brighter and the colors are more vivid. It has a better camera, the display is full HD which is a support industry standard, which the iPhone has never used. The battery lasts long, and even tho the iPhone battery is half the size, it takes double the time to charge. The Note 3 can be fully charged in 2 hours and last a full day and a half on a single charge with average usage.

Metal cases and a fancy logo doesn't make a phone highend. Yes the iPhone has a better GPU, but since the iPhone doesn't have any features to even show it off, it is nothing more than marketing hype. When compared side by side, the iPhone 5S and the Note 3, the Note still offers way more. Triple the RAM, double the storage, expandible storage, open file system and more.


Maybe you missed what I said:"High end segment" which means segment of the market. You might not find it worth the price, others do but it has nothing to do with my comment. Personally I find Lamborghini junk cars, still the brand operates in the high end of the market.

stevan said,

Umm, this may also be a surprise to you, but companies can't just say they had the biggest quarter ever. They show numbers in their quarterly conference calls and those numbers can be compared to previous quarters/yearsz


No, that's not a surprise.
But I'm talking about marketing disclosure, it's almost always a lie. :p

Raa said,

No, that's not a surprise.
But I'm talking about marketing disclosure, it's almost always a lie. :p

Yeah, you're right about that :)

Maybe if you'd stop releasing so many damn phones and start producing actually useful features, people wouldn't get so tired of you.

Mr.XXIV said,
Maybe if you'd stop releasing so many damn phones and start producing actually useful features, people wouldn't get so tired of you.

Even though Apple only released two phones, soon to be a possible four phones, Apple hasn't exactly come up with any useful features itself either. I find iPhones completely boring.

Mr.XXIV said,
Maybe if you'd stop releasing so many damn phones and start producing actually useful features, people wouldn't get so tired of you.

They should learn from Apple. Make less phones but make them top notch and focus on the ecosystem.

stevan said,

They should learn from Apple. Make less phones but make them top notch and focus on the ecosystem.

But they aren't top notch. And about the ecosystem, it is self build. In fact, is Apple who is throttling back new changes.

Brony said,

But they aren't top notch. And about the ecosystem, it is self build. In fact, is Apple who is throttling back new changes.

Of course their metal phones are not top notch. Samsung totally isn't about to release a metal phone and charge more for it. :p

Who are you kidding, iPhones have had amazing build quality every year and all the reviews prove it. Besides they have built their ecosystem to supplement their hardware and are improving it constantly.

Gergel7077 said,

Even though Apple only released two phones, soon to be a possible four phones, Apple hasn't exactly come up with any useful features itself either. I find iPhones completely boring.

Can't be any more boring than Windows Phones. They're still playing catch up with their feature set.

As a Samsung user, I still want to see them step their game up. Don't really care about what Apple did.

stevan said,

They should learn from Apple. Make less phones but make them top notch and focus on the ecosystem.

For once I can agree. What sells phones now is not what they can do just on the hardware, but the services, One thing that I think helped with the Galaxy phones is Samsung does back them with some very good services. They have the money to provide music, video and more services.

The previous phones sold mostly because they had better feature sets vs some of the competition. But now that they have crammed all they can into a phone, that is no longer a selling point.

Samsung will still sell more phones vs any OEM using Android because they have the marketing capital, but they need to give more substance. I think the Galaxy S 5 shows they can offer such with no problem and that filling a phone with to many gimmicks to fast doesn't give customers anything to look forward too.

Simplistic is boring. We want a phone that is simple to use, but offers a fair amount of bells and whistles for what it costs. The Galaxy S 3 is a perfect example of a smartphone, that was a perfect size, had nice features, is easy to use and felt great in the hands. The S4, Samsung got to greedy and dumped in a bunch of BS and the phone simply ran bad until you turned useless stuff off. The S5 is nearly perfect.

Yeah, BBC TV chan. also said this morning that they are "blaming" Chinese low priced phones at this point. Lets be honest, most of them suck and there are quite good ones as well for around €200.

Torolol said,
so WP & iPhone gonna going down too? i hope so.

hopefully it will force fresh innovation rather than the stale 1 year spec bumps

Torolol said,
so WP & iPhone gonna going down too? i hope so.

according to IDC, there is about single digits % spread in marketshare from iphone to windows phone. IIRC 9%. Which means if apple keeps going down and WP holding steady, both ecosystems will have roughly the same numbers as predicted long ago by IDC. The difference off course that the idea was they would meet somewhere higher and not in the single digits share which is a testament to the googlopoly's power.

both companies need to be very disruptive. MSFT has a better chance at clonning the google model if they take the right tones with WP and offer it as an android counterbalance to OEMs looking for leverage against the googlopoly. Apple OTOH wouldn't license iOS ever so they are in an innovate or die dilemma.