Sony sues GeoHot for hacking the PS3

Sony has been on a legal rampage lately, filing lawsuits against anyone who hacks their PS3, or posts the "master key" which was leaked recently, and now is going after infamous hacker GeoHot for hacking his own PS3. GeoHot is infamous in the hacking scene, for initially jailbreaking the iPhone, and then he released the PS3 master key, and a "jailbreak" that allows homemade games to be played on the PS3.

GeoHot posted on his blog today that the company is suing him for hacking his personal PS3, even though he never used it online, and is against mass piracy. In his post, GeoHot writes that;

"I am an advocate against mass piracy, do not distribute anyone's copyrighted work but my own, do not take crap lying down, and am even pro DRM in a sense. For example, I believe Apple has every right to lock down their iPhone in the factory as much as they want, but once it's paid for and mine, I have the right to unlock it, smash it, jailbreak it, look at it, and hack on it. Fortunately, the courts agree with me on this point."

He goes on to mention that his goal was to "provide users with a legitimate path to homebrew" which is "100% legal." Apparently the lawsuit has been in motion for over a month now, and GeoHot was waiting until he had talked to his lawyers before making a statement.

Now, GeoHot is asking for help from the internet -- and the media -- in getting his message out there. Obviously an individual could not afford as many lawyers as Sony has on the case (Which is 5, by the way), so he asks that anyone who supports the cause to donate as much as they can to help support the fight.

Since the case was launched, Sony has also changed the Terms of Service on the playstation network which now allows them to monitor any activity on the service and record it for 'legal purposes' and can take action against users if required to. The 'action' in question is being blocked from Sony Online Services themselves.

For more information or to support GeoHot's fight against Sony, visit his new blog here.

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All I want to say about this...
That youtube rap he posted isn't going to help his case one ****ing bit.

No one should be surprised by any of this foolishness considering its Sony. This is a company that secretly put rootkits on people's computers without their knowledge or consent. They want to control you.

Davo said,
No one should be surprised by any of this foolishness considering its Sony. This is a company that secretly put rootkits on people's computers without their knowledge or consent. They want to control you.

Wouldn't be a good time now to release new machine? They are so outdated now (PS3 more than other since it was late in the game).. anyway..

ryoohki said,
Wouldn't be a good time now to release new machine? They are so outdated now (PS3 more than other since it was late in the game).. anyway..

Ummmm... Wouldn't being LATE in the game imply that the PS3's tech was further ahead than the other next-gen consoles, not less so?

I don't recall anyone networking a whole bunch of 360's or Wii's together to do cluster computing like what was done with the PS3, nor would they be powerful enough comparatively.

tanjiajun_34 said,
http://www.ngohq.com/news/1413...ender-software-pirates.html
Hey, they bought their own Windows or Office and hack it. What is wrong about that? They bought the disc and they hack it? The Windows or Office is their own properly as well. So why is Microsoft suing?

Nope, Windows and Office are Intellectual Property of MS - they are not yours to modify, only use. It's in their EULA Btw, you are permitted to make legal backup copy of media that holds either Windows, or Office (in some countries, that is), if you own legally bought original copy. Guys from you link were selling illegal copies. However, if you find that you can run, lets say Office, in infinite trial by simply resetting your PC clock, you are also permitted to do so - you haven't poked any of the MS code and for that matter, haven't violate the EULA.

I've hacked mine for the emulators, I haven't pirated any PS3 games because literally none of them interest me
Hacking the console open is a GOOD thing. Geohot was a retard for doing it so publicly though, should have remained anonymous.

Everyone keeps overlooking the point. This was made for homebrew. The jailbreak did not allow for pirated material to be installed/played on consoles. Other hackers reviewed the exploit and made changes for that to happen. Besides, why can't I do what I want with my console after buying it?

I do agree with Sony on one thing, hacked consoles should not allowed to join online games through PSN. Obviously this leads to cheating on games and other misfortunes. One way to get around this is have an alternative network similar to the ps2 and other consoles that was made to play with the hackers/cheaters and take your risk there.

@Quapps - Not if you picked your own lock...

For someone who passionately nourishes personal property laws (USA citizens), they seem to fail in defending them from time to time. Console, when bought by you, is yours, you can grow flowers in if you like, as long as you make no harm to someone by doing that - then your actions subject to other laws. You're permitted to reveal any information regarding your own property, for instance if violets grow better when planted on top of your PS3, or daisies! You get my point with the flowering stuff! If someone uses that information, then his action subject to his violation of amenable law.

Regardless of how he hides behind the whole "Didn't do it for piracy" story it is a FACT that he allowed hackers an easy way to do so.

He is responsible for the PS3 piracy whether he agrees to it or not.

If I picked the lock on a door which allowed burglars entrance I become an accessory to that burglary. Simple!

Quapps said,
If I picked the lock on a door which allowed burglars entrance I become an accessory to that burglary. Simple!

Yeah, except in this case, it's MY OWN DOOR that I picked, and I'm telling everyone else with the same lock how to open it when they're locked out.

You must have never seen all those lockpicking videos up in youtube Yes, they should all be caught as accessory to burglary.

GreenMartian said,

Yeah, except in this case, it's MY OWN DOOR that I picked, and I'm telling everyone else with the same lock how to open it when they're locked out.

You must have never seen all those lockpicking videos up in youtube Yes, they should all be caught as accessory to burglary.

Well, I haven't had much need to search YouTube for that as it happens. I'm not going to even ask why you have seen them.

BTW, If you pick your own lock to allow burglars in you are still an accessory!

I take a harsh view on piracy because it directly affects me and my business. Not so much on PS3 but that is besides the point.

By all means, hack your own goods but DON'T tell everybody else how to do it and provide tools/keys/code to do it yourself because then it is not doing it for your own benefit but just to cause damage and this is essentially what GeoHot has done.

Quapps said,

Well, I haven't had much need to search YouTube for that as it happens. I'm not going to even ask why you have seen them.

BTW, If you pick your own lock to allow burglars in you are still an accessory!

I take a harsh view on piracy because it directly affects me and my business. Not so much on PS3 but that is besides the point.

By all means, hack your own goods but DON'T tell everybody else how to do it and provide tools/keys/code to do it yourself because then it is not doing it for your own benefit but just to cause damage and this is essentially what GeoHot has done.


Wow, you suck... Thats the reason why we have to continually "jailbreak" and hack into our things just to get functionality that could have been implemented in the first place. If I find a way to make homebrew on the PS3 why should I not be allowed to tell everyone how to do it? Btw stop whining about piracy and how it affects you, although piracy is not a good thing people who usually pirate things are people who would have never bought them in the first place so calm your horses son

danisflying527 said,

Wow, you suck... Thats the reason why we have to continually "jailbreak" and hack into our things just to get functionality that could have been implemented in the first place. If I find a way to make homebrew on the PS3 why should I not be allowed to tell everyone how to do it? Btw stop whining about piracy and how it affects you, although piracy is not a good thing people who usually pirate things are people who would have never bought them in the first place so calm your horses son

Typical pirates response! No clue.

Quapps said,
Typical pirates response! No clue.

Typical corporate moron. I am glad you busyness suffered. Please PM me your products' names so I can pirate them some more to help.

Quapps said,

Well, I haven't had much need to search YouTube for that as it happens. I'm not going to even ask why you have seen them.

BTW, If you pick your own lock to allow burglars in you are still an accessory!

I take a harsh view on piracy because it directly affects me and my business. Not so much on PS3 but that is besides the point.

By all means, hack your own goods but DON'T tell everybody else how to do it and provide tools/keys/code to do it yourself because then it is not doing it for your own benefit but just to cause damage and this is essentially what GeoHot has done.

A person picking his own door MIGHT be an accessory. To be an accessory before the fact, he'd have to be aware that there were burglars there BEFORE they broke in and knowingly assist them.

He brings out a tool that on its face cannot be used to pirate games, and someone else alters that tool afterward to make it capable of doing so, he's not an accessory.

It's fairly common knowledge that criminals will whittle down plastic utensils and such in prison to make shanks, yet the producers of those utensils are not accessories.

And like it or not, one pirate does not equate to one lost sale. Many who pirate software couldn't afford to pay if they wanted to. No they definitely shouldn't pirate, but all those pirate copies wouldn't magically turn into revenues. Some, but hardly all.

krasch said,

A person picking his own door MIGHT be an accessory. To be an accessory before the fact, he'd have to be aware that there were burglars there BEFORE they broke in and knowingly assist them.

He brings out a tool that on its face cannot be used to pirate games, and someone else alters that tool afterward to make it capable of doing so, he's not an accessory.

It's fairly common knowledge that criminals will whittle down plastic utensils and such in prison to make shanks, yet the producers of those utensils are not accessories.

And like it or not, one pirate does not equate to one lost sale. Many who pirate software couldn't afford to pay if they wanted to. No they definitely shouldn't pirate, but all those pirate copies wouldn't magically turn into revenues. Some, but hardly all.

The shank analogy isn't quite right but I also understand that point.

If the developers of the toothbrush had said "Hey, these could make great shanks" before the criminals used them to make shanks then yes they would be an accessory.

GeoHot KNEW it was leading to piracy and he is hiding behind the fact he didn't allow that off the bat.

Quapps said,

The shank analogy isn't quite right but I also understand that point.

If the developers of the toothbrush had said "Hey, these could make great shanks" before the criminals used them to make shanks then yes they would be an accessory.

GeoHot KNEW it was leading to piracy and he is hiding behind the fact he didn't allow that off the bat.


Luv ur last response, btw
Typical pirates response
I never pirate and your posts are extremely moronic
How about reading and learning? Geohot actually stopped the part of the PS3 that is used to pirate games actually availble for use. Other people hacked and broke it. How is it his fault? So why should we have to suffer without homebrew when its right in front of us. Is that what you do with your software? Lock it down so customers can only directly use it for what you made it for? The Customer bought the software, if he/she wants to mod/edit the program and distribute the way how to do it then why is this such a bad thing.
Pirates will always pirate
Why should we be denied the functionality of homebrew? I would very much want to run linux on my PS3 again and your the kind of person that took it away from me in the first place <

Quapps said,

The shank analogy isn't quite right but I also understand that point.

If the developers of the toothbrush had said "Hey, these could make great shanks" before the criminals used them to make shanks then yes they would be an accessory.

GeoHot KNEW it was leading to piracy and he is hiding behind the fact he didn't allow that off the bat.


Luv ur last response, btw
Typical pirates response
I never pirate and your posts are extremely moronic
How about reading and learning? Geohot actually stopped the part of the PS3 that is used to pirate games actually availble for use. Other people hacked and broke it. How is it his fault? So why should we have to suffer without homebrew when its right in front of us. Is that what you do with your software? Lock it down so customers can only directly use it for what you made it for? The Customer bought the software, if he/she wants to mod/edit the program and distribute the way how to do it then why is this such a bad thing.
Pirates will always pirate
Why should we be denied the functionality of homebrew? I would very much want to run linux on my PS3 again and your the kind of person that took it away from me in the first place <

Thats not the master key, its the key to let those usb key fobs be recognized by the ps3.

And other os was removed in response to Geohotz claim to have exploitedthe ps3 through it and other prior hacks involving it.

I'm all for opening the system up for homebrew and customisation, but anyone who uses that to play pirated games is just an idiot, plain and simple.

Anarkii said,
I'm all for opening the system up for homebrew and customisation, but anyone who uses that to play pirated games is just an idiot, plain and simple.
Why are they an idiot if they do? What's your reasoning?

LuckyCasper said,
Didn't the Army hack a bunch of PS3s and turn them into a super computer?

nope, just cascaded them all for their processing power. A feature sony later removed rendering their experiment a waste of money

Ruciz said,

nope, just cascaded them all for their processing power. A feature sony later removed rendering their experiment a waste of money

Only if the army decided to stop their computing and update the PS3s to play Killzone online.

Azies said,
I don't get it, if your PS3 is unplugged, and offline, how can Sony monitor communication from the PS3?

The updated terms of use are inrelation to sony online services... but it wouldn't surpise me if the ps3 collected data offline about what games you play, any system files that have been changed etc and send them back the first chances it gets when connected to the internet.

Azies said,
I don't get it, if your PS3 is unplugged, and offline, how can Sony monitor communication from the PS3?

They can't. Anyways some homebrew want internet access so there is potential for Sony to intervene and monitor.

sagum said,

It wouldn't surpise me if the ps3 collected data offline about what games you play, any system files that have been changed etc and send them back the first chances it gets when connected to the internet.

Yeah, they definitely could do this, but then they don't really need to. Anyone who is online with a pre-3.56 firmware is using a CFW...

sagum said,

The updated terms of use are inrelation to sony online services... but it wouldn't surpise me if the ps3 collected data offline about what games you play, any system files that have been changed etc and send them back the first chances it gets when connected to the internet.

That really puts me off of the PS3, coincidentally I recently sold my PS3 due to it collecting dust and decided to try out the Nintendo Wii and I play mostly Virtual Console games on it, don't know if I'd go back to the PS3 now that things have gone down this route.

I agree with Geo on the fact that once you buy your product you can do anything with it. The part I disagree is the part where he spouts that he is against piracy yet he releases the key for everyone to download. So much for personal use right? I couldn't care if he jailbreaked/modded but once you shared the key, that just changed everything about personal use.

Also, if people are so hard headed to think they can do anything they want cause they bought the product, they should learn to read the TOS on the product which clearly states the terms before it lets you do anything else.

Morisato said,
Also, if people are so hard headed to think they can do anything they want cause they bought the product, they should learn to read the TOS on the product which clearly states the terms before it lets you do anything else.
Please show this to me. Also show me the proof that Geohot ever accepted such terms.

Morisato said,
I agree with Geo on the fact that once you buy your product you can do anything with it. The part I disagree is the part where he spouts that he is against piracy yet he releases the key for everyone to download. So much for personal use right? I couldn't care if he jailbreaked/modded but once you shared the key, that just changed everything about personal use.

Also, if people are so hard headed to think they can do anything they want cause they bought the product, they should learn to read the TOS on the product which clearly states the terms before it lets you do anything else.

If you knew anything about how he went about it then you would know that he protected the area required to run pirated games. There are multiple layers of security on a PS3. The area needed to do pirated/backup games is called LV2 by the PS3 hacking community and the cfw needs support for peek and poke into that area. Geohot's code has anti peek and poke code for LV2 which had effectively prevented his firmware from accessing that area. Other hackers had found other ways to do it which allowed it but Geohot didn't do that at all. The lawsuit was already going and he couldn't contribute during that timespan.

Morisato said,
Also, if people are so hard headed to think they can do anything they want cause they bought the product, they should learn to read the TOS on the product which clearly states the terms before it lets you do anything else.

You know, I've never really gotten how EULAs are enforcible. It's essentially a contract and for a contract to be enforcible, don't you have to have witnesses? Also, if I agreed to the terms of use, then my brother uses the console afterwards, he hasn't been bound to the terms since I don't have the right to sign a contract for him, so how can they even prove that a person has agreed to a EULA?

boogerjones said,
This lawsuit was filed almost a month and a half ago and it was big news back then. Why is Neowin making something of it now?

Because GeoHot put out a statement.

Sony should embrace homebrew because not only does it give independent developers a chance to build something for the PS3, but it doesn't even have an impact on Sony's PS3 sales. I think this issue sounds alot like how some people don't understand open source.

I dont know why people buy SOny products. they dont make anything of quality anymore. NO one buys their MP3 players, their laptops are notorious for issues that Sony refuses to fix. Except by introducing new issues that have other issues that never get fixed. BLueR-Ray is only worth while for a person that wants a physical copy of their HD media as more and more people are moving to streaming, and I havent found any compelling reason to get a PS3 over an XBox yet. Just add on to that that Microsoft is even developing a SDK for the Kinect.

Epic0range said,
I dont know why people buy SOny products. they dont make anything of quality anymore. NO one buys their MP3 players, their laptops are notorious for issues that Sony refuses to fix. Except by introducing new issues that have other issues that never get fixed. BLueR-Ray is only worth while for a person that wants a physical copy of their HD media as more and more people are moving to streaming, and I havent found any compelling reason to get a PS3 over an XBox yet. Just add on to that that Microsoft is even developing a SDK for the Kinect.

Agreed. Except streaming media is awful quality compared to physical media based HD (streaming just can't have the bitrate that would allow it to compete, though I'm sure it will do one day).

UHYVE said,

Agreed. Except streaming media is awful quality compared to physical media based HD (streaming just can't have the bitrate that would allow it to compete, though I'm sure it will do one day).

I'm unfortunately stuck with a terrible router, terrible internet download and upload speeds, and all wireless for the game systems in my current place of residence, not by choice however.
Steaming on the PS3 is absolutely awful. I streamed a 3 minute music video to our PS3, and then to my 360. It took about 5 seconds for the 360 to load the video and play without interruption. The PS3 took a grand total of 9 minutes and 10 seconds to play the same 3 minute music video. Why?...I still don't know./endrant

Epic0range said,
... I havent found any compelling reason to get a PS3 over an XBox yet. Just add on to that that Microsoft is even developing a SDK for the Kinect.
Neither is the opposite....

typo at "now is going after infamous hacker GeoHot for hacking is own PS3"

should be: "now is going after infamous hacker GeoHot for hacking his own PS3"

s3n4te said,
typo at "now is going after infamous hacker GeoHot for hacking is own PS3"

should be: "now is going after infamous hacker GeoHot for hacking his own PS3"

No, it should read "Geohot asking Community for Donations". Because the title, Sony sues Geohot, is irrelevant to what the current situation is. Sony suing Geohot started a nearly month ago. And the article is written as if it started just yesterday.

I know it's Unprofessional Journalism, but at least put some effort into it.

Edited by duhk, Feb 21 2011, 6:25am :

The problem is that Geohotz made available his hack which prohibited. The hacking of the ps3 is just a grey area, the hacking of cellphones are allowed and only cellphone.

Einlander said,
The problem is that Geohotz made available his hack which prohibited. The hacking of the ps3 is just a grey area, the hacking of cellphones are allowed and only cellphone.

Why only cellphones?

Einlander said,
The problem is that Geohotz made available his hack which prohibited.
No, it's not. Sony cannot copyright source code that somebody else creates, even if that source can be compiled to a circumvention device. Nor does the DMCA prohibit source code that compiles to a circumvention device. This is because source code is considered speech protected by the 1st Amendment. See the DeCSS and Blu-ray legal cases, which set the precedent for this as it relates to circumvention source code.

The DMCA says that you can reverse engineer for legitimate research reasons, but you can't release release the hack unless you first work to fix the exploit with the company. Something that Geohot Did not do.

I Agree with him that once you have purchased something it is yours, and you can do whatever you want with it, Just do not effect other people with your decisions and you are doing nothing wrong, However, if someone modifies their stuff and uses it against other people then they should be punished *which is what sony is doing when they ban people from PSN* I am completely alright with that.

I don't care if he's against mass piracy, he still opened the console up to other hackers and gave them near full access to do the very thing he is supposedly against. For that, I hope he loses.

Elessar said,
I don't care if he's against mass piracy, he still opened the console up to other hackers and gave them near full access to do the very thing he is supposedly against. For that, I hope he loses.

Are you being genuine with your feelings about this?

Joker. said,

Are you being genuine with your feelings about this?

Yes, completely. Hacking never leads to anything good, no matter what people try to use as an excuse, the majority is always harmed more than helped. I haven't been able to play a fair game of MW2 in weeks. And I wouldn't be surprised if developers are hesitant to develop for the system in it's current state.

AtriusNY said,
Yes, genuinely idiotic.
Please be respectful. Also, I see Elessar's point. If you create a tool that is GUARANTEED to be used for piracy, and then release it, aren't you enabling the crime? If someone found a way to unlock your house, and then published it, wouldn't you be ****ed off?

Elessar said,

Yes, completely. Hacking never leads to anything good, no matter what people try to use as an excuse, the majority is always harmed more than helped. I haven't been able to play a fair game of MW2 in weeks. And I wouldn't be surprised if developers are hesitant to develop for the system in it's current state.

I'm pretty sure Apple started as hackers in a garage...but yeah I guess it "never leads to anything good".

Elessar said,
Yes, completely. Hacking never leads to anything good, no matter what people try to use as an excuse, the majority is always harmed more than helped. I haven't been able to play a fair game of MW2 in weeks.

Aww, is someone butthurt at being beat at a game?

You should not underestimate the very significant _positive_ contributions of white-hat hackers. You should know that if it weren't for people challenging the security of systems, companies would have little incentive to make them more secure.

Sony also needs to stop being a butthurt little kid and put their money into trying to make their products more secure in _necessary_ ways rather than trying to intimidating someone who accomplished something that the recent DMCA ruling deemed legal. If I were them, I'd hire GeoHot.

Elessar said,
I don't care if he's against mass piracy, he still opened the console up to other hackers and gave them near full access to do the very thing he is supposedly against. For that, I hope he loses.

So you are 100% OK with Sony big brothering everything you do on your PS3, and allowing your taxed and paid for property to be completely controlled by them?

Maybe a more relative subject would be a computer- which is what the PS3 was advertised to be. So imagine you bought a new computer.
Shortly after buying that computer you update it to browse online, only to find once you reboot it you only HAVE a web browser. Every program you created, script you wrote, customization you made is gone and not recoverable. You can't install anything but what the web browser allows you to - you can't even get to your files you had beforehand.

Then you figure out how to do get to those files and how to make 100% sure that forever after the fact you can do this. Are you saying you shouldn't let others know? You should just say OK whatever, If you want me to only use a web browser I will only use a web browser and so will everyone else..

I know if in the same position, I would have pulled a robin hood. Its been fought before and companies lose every time. They can't control hardware they no longer own, and the owner can do with it what they see fit.

Its not geohots fault sony can't run a secure online gaming service. Theres no reason they can't even with the CFW. They known about these exploits & online cheating since Aug 2010 and couldn't be bothered to even attempt to remedy it.. Too busy in the court room.. FWIW, both the 360 and the wii have the same level of kernel/code execution access for quite some time now and theres very little problem with online services.

Edited by Ruciz, Feb 21 2011, 2:26am :

Brody McKee said,
If you create a tool that is GUARANTEED to be used for piracy, and then release it, aren't you enabling the crime?
The internet is Guaranteed to be used for Piracy, what about people that make routers, Ethernet cables, etc ?
It's also guaranteed to be used for Terrorism, and Child Pornography..

For that matter, the Popcorn Hour, WDTV Live, CD's, DVD's, and many other things are also Guaranteed to be used for piracy.. That doesn't mean we ban and sue everyone involved with them.

He created a tool that COULD be used for piracy, but that's not the only thing it could be used for.

Brody McKee said,
If you create a tool that is GUARANTEED to be used for piracy, and then release it, aren't you enabling the crime? If someone found a way to unlock your house, and then published it, wouldn't you be ****ed off?

It's like blaming the weapon manufacturer every time someone's shot.

basques said,

It's like blaming the weapon manufacturer every time someone's shot.

Not Quite - Weapons are just a little different from Consoles - Weapons are designed to kill

Elessar said,
I don't care if he's against mass piracy, he still opened the console up to other hackers and gave them near full access to do the very thing he is supposedly against. For that, I hope he loses.

Fact: Sony removed the OtherOS feature from the PS3 console via system update. Sony are now feeling the consequences of people trying to get something that is a 'broken' feature working again. Their PS3 box says it supports OtherOS loading, was brought as such, there for it it doesn't do what it says on the tin...

An analogy would be if you brought a Merc or Audi and they had built in multimedia display that has pictures, movies, mp3s etc as well as built in Satnav. Then one day you get an update and you find the satnav fuction can no longer be used.
Sure, a lot of people don't use satnav, but a lot do... regardless you paid for the car (ps3) to have the ability to do Satnav (OtherOS) and it should work.

Elessar said,
I don't care if he's against mass piracy, he still opened the console up to other hackers and gave them near full access to do the very thing he is supposedly against. For that, I hope he loses.

Are you serious? The code he had released specifically had code written to prevent piracy while allowing homebrew. The other developers had to bypass and remove his protection code in order to do what they needed for backups.

mindscape said,

Aww, is someone butthurt at being beat at a game?

You should not underestimate the very significant _positive_ contributions of white-hat hackers. You should know that if it weren't for people challenging the security of systems, companies would have little incentive to make them more secure.

Sony also needs to stop being a butthurt little kid and put their money into trying to make their products more secure in _necessary_ ways rather than trying to intimidating someone who accomplished something that the recent DMCA ruling deemed legal. If I were them, I'd hire GeoHot.

Actually the excemption only applies to mobile smartphones specifically. It doesn't apply to game consoles although his argument is that it should as there really isn't any moral difference here.

Ruciz said,

So you are 100% OK with Sony big brothering everything you do on your PS3, and allowing your taxed and paid for property to be completely controlled by them?

Maybe a more relative subject would be a computer- which is what the PS3 was advertised to be. So imagine you bought a new computer.
Shortly after buying that computer you update it to browse online, only to find once you reboot it you only HAVE a web browser. Every program you created, script you wrote, customization you made is gone and not recoverable. You can't install anything but what the web browser allows you to - you can't even get to your files you had beforehand.

Then you figure out how to do get to those files and how to make 100% sure that forever after the fact you can do this. Are you saying you shouldn't let others know? You should just say OK whatever, If you want me to only use a web browser I will only use a web browser and so will everyone else..

I know if in the same position, I would have pulled a robin hood. Its been fought before and companies lose every time. They can't control hardware they no longer own, and the owner can do with it what they see fit.

Its not geohots fault sony can't run a secure online gaming service. Theres no reason they can't even with the CFW. They known about these exploits & online cheating since Aug 2010 and couldn't be bothered to even attempt to remedy it.. Too busy in the court room.. FWIW, both the 360 and the wii have the same level of kernel/code execution access for quite some time now and theres very little problem with online services.

Actually when it comes to CoD: MW2 and CoD: Black Ops there are plenty of issues with people using jtagged consoles to bypass the digital signature checks but Microsoft has been implementing stronger anti-piracy techniques and more firmware checks to prevent people from doing so. Usually people with jtagged consoles get banned within a week if not the same day so they don't survive very long. The time frame to survive with just modded drives is going down and I know a few people personally that have modded consoles. I don't care what they do with it though. I just advise them not to go online unless they feel like getting banned and their account flagged.

Elessar said,
I don't care if he's against mass piracy, he still opened the console up to other hackers and gave them near full access to do the very thing he is supposedly against. For that, I hope he loses.
Hacking a console =/= mass piracy.
What do you even define as mass piracy? I doubt even 1% of PS3 owners pirate games.

Elessar said,

Yes, completely. Hacking never leads to anything good, no matter what people try to use as an excuse, the majority is always harmed more than helped. I haven't been able to play a fair game of MW2 in weeks. And I wouldn't be surprised if developers are hesitant to develop for the system in it's current state.

Hacking never leads to anything good? You're an idiot really. All your points for not supporting GeoHot are idiotic and show you know nothing about this subject but want to comment as if you do.

Brody McKee said,
Please be respectful. Also, I see Elessar's point. If you create a tool that is GUARANTEED to be used for piracy, and then release it, aren't you enabling the crime? If someone found a way to unlock your house, and then published it, wouldn't you be ****ed off?

You too a bit. GeoHot put blocks for piracy which were broken by other hackers whom are pro-piracy. Also, your analogy sucks and is a failed attempt at pushing your point across. Guess what? I have a rock, you have a window, you lose.

Brody McKee said,
Please be respectful. Also, I see Elessar's point. If you create a tool that is GUARANTEED to be used for piracy, and then release it, aren't you enabling the crime? If someone found a way to unlock your house, and then published it, wouldn't you be ****ed off?

1. According to Sony, no, see their defence of Betamax.
2. I'd be ****ed at the lockmaker.

Minooch said,

Not Quite - Weapons are just a little different from Consoles - Weapons are designed to kill

Then use Cars and Seatbelt's as an example.. It would be "realistically" easy to prevent the car from being turned on unless at least the driver had his seatbelt locked.. But they don't force that.. And they aren't responsible when someone doesn't do it and gets fined/killed.

It's called Personal Responsibility.. Sony can sue the people using the tool to do something illegal, but the tool itself and it's maker are not illegal..

Brody McKee said,
Please be respectful. Also, I see Elessar's point. If you create a tool that is GUARANTEED to be used for piracy, and then release it, aren't you enabling the crime? If someone found a way to unlock your house, and then published it, wouldn't you be ****ed off?

Wow, you have a flawed analogy. If someone figured out how to unlock my house, I would hope it would be someone that would use that knowledge to help me out when i lock myself out of the house.

Just because something could be potentially used for evil doesn't mean it shouldn't be made. Nuclear Fission could be used to make Nuclear weapons, but it could also be used to generate energy. A knife is a weapon, but it's also a helpful kitchen utility.

It's the people that use the knowledge, that's the problem. Everybody focus's too much on the negative side of things. That's why the world is such a negative place. Acknowledge the negative and make it a positive.

shinji257 said,
Microsoft has been implementing stronger anti-piracy techniques and more firmware checks to prevent people from doing so. The time frame to survive with just modded drives is going down and I know a few people personally that have modded consoles.

i actually think it's the opposite. it's getting harder and harder for Microsoft to detect people using a moded console with backup copies of games simply because there has not been any bans i believe since well over a year ago now. (it might have been around a month after Halo 3's release date the last time i seen a major ban wave if i recall correctly)

plus the 'new checks' i am immune to myself since any Samsung consoles (and earlier Hitachi models) are immune to the new AP25 checks they been implementing. so as long as your running the newest firmware for your drive i think the odds of getting banned is much slimmer than it used to be and here is my reasoning...

i think they are running out of ways to detect people using modified firmware on there DVD-ROM drives and properly patched backups with abgx360 simply because they are just only fairly recently implementing that newer AP25 checks into there games.

PLUS... they almost always in the past had AT LEAST 1 ban wave a year, sometimes 2. but lately that don't seem to be the case. so between that and them 'finally' implementing AP25 protection probably means they could not detect moded consoles with current methods

so in other words... i think if there is not another major ban wave in the next 6months to a year tops (say by the end of the year at the most) i doubt they will be able to nail us assuming your using current firmware and properly patched backups with abgx360.

Edited by ThaCrip, Feb 21 2011, 7:44am :

Visnu said,

I'm pretty sure Apple started as hackers in a garage...but yeah I guess it "never leads to anything good".


Elessar said,

Yes, completely. Hacking never leads to anything good, no matter what people try to use as an excuse, the majority is always harmed more than helped. I haven't been able to play a fair game of MW2 in weeks. And I wouldn't be surprised if developers are hesitant to develop for the system in it's current state.


wow really i guess the pc notebook or phone you use on a daily basis wasn't something good

Visnu said,

I'm pretty sure Apple started as hackers in a garage...but yeah I guess it "never leads to anything good".

Erm ... no. Apple started as a system builder in a garage. They didn't 'hack' anything. Steve Wozniak is a lot better than that thank you very much.

mindscape said,

Aww, is someone butthurt at being beat at a game?

You should not underestimate the very significant _positive_ contributions of white-hat hackers. You should know that if it weren't for people challenging the security of systems, companies would have little incentive to make them more secure.

Sony also needs to stop being a butthurt little kid and put their money into trying to make their products more secure in _necessary_ ways rather than trying to intimidating someone who accomplished something that the recent DMCA ruling deemed legal. If I were them, I'd hire GeoHot.

Please for the love of all things sacred, don't use the word Butthurt again. It makes you sound instantly invalid in this argument. Thank You

Spirit Dave said,

Erm ... no. Apple started as a system builder in a garage. They didn't 'hack' anything. Steve Wozniak is a lot better than that thank you very much.

I would argue that Woz did hack together his first machine (They certainly weren't parts he manufactured, but other parts that he decided to run his own code on). He was even part of a "Homebrew Club"
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6167297

He also hacked blue boxes (check History section):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_box

Spirit Dave said,

Erm ... no. Apple started as a system builder in a garage. They didn't 'hack' anything. Steve Wozniak is a lot better than that thank you very much.

Congratulations on buying into the media's redefinition of the word "hack". Go ask the Woz, Steve Jobs, or even Bill Gates what they considered themselves back in the day, and ask them what being a "hacker" meant back then. It didn't mean (and to many still doesn't mean) what the media wants you to think it means.

Brody McKee said,
Please be respectful. Also, I see Elessar's point. If you create a tool that is GUARANTEED to be used for piracy, and then release it, aren't you enabling the crime? If someone found a way to unlock your house, and then published it, wouldn't you be ****ed off?
GUARANTEED to be used for piracy...? Just because it may be used for piracy, that doesn't undermine the legitimate uses.

duhk said,

Wow, you have a flawed analogy. If someone figured out how to unlock my house, I would hope it would be someone that would use that knowledge to help me out when i lock myself out of the house.

There you go! That is what I and many others would do.

BUT that is NOT what Geohot did.
Geohot went out and gave everyone in your neighborhood copies of your front door key and said to them there is treasure inside your house. And you (in this analogy "Sony") are mad because every one and there cousins are robbing you blind without a trace of breaking and entering.

I really hate how opening a reply link in a new tab doesn't reply to the damn message I hit reply to. Ignore me.

Elessar said,
Yes, completely. Hacking never leads to anything good

Due to "Hacking" I can now use my wii as a media center. That's not good?

Brody McKee said,
Please be respectful. Also, I see Elessar's point. If you create a tool that is GUARANTEED to be used for piracy, and then release it, aren't you enabling the crime? If someone found a way to unlock your house, and then published it, wouldn't you be ****ed off?

I see your point, however, there are a lot of instances where creating something can be used for both "good" and "bad". If for every invention that has both good and bad consequences we were to say no to, we would still be in the stone age.
As for someone publishing how to break into my house... I would change my locks. If I developed the locks, I would be ****ed off at myself for doing a terrible job. To me, buying a console is just like buying a desktop computer. If i want to open it up and stick something inside, or change the OS, I should be able to, and I should find helpful information on how to. They can tear up my warranty if they want, I made the choice, I'll deal with it.

mindscape said,

Aww, is someone butthurt at being beat at a game?

You should not underestimate the very significant _positive_ contributions of white-hat hackers. You should know that if it weren't for people challenging the security of systems, companies would have little incentive to make them more secure.

Sony also needs to stop being a butthurt little kid and put their money into trying to make their products more secure in _necessary_ ways rather than trying to intimidating someone who accomplished something that the recent DMCA ruling deemed legal. If I were them, I'd hire GeoHot.

This is what makes the most sense to me. Apple AND Sony should be fighting over this guy to help them secure their own devices' security. The hacking itself pushes security to become better, thus making the hardware better. This is the thought process behind open-source software, but applied to a hardware perspective. While it can lead to other problems, more people looking at the architecture will force Sony to improve their designs for future products like the PS4.

I hope GeoHot wins the case.

Spirit Dave said,

Erm ... no. Apple started as a system builder in a garage. They didn't 'hack' anything. Steve Wozniak is a lot better than that thank you very much.

Woah.... another CrAppleholic believing in the holier than thou divinity of Steve iHitler Jobs and Steve Wozniak! haha.... yeah right.... so stealing long distance pay phone calls with their "Blue Boxes" from AT&T wasn't PIRACY.... Right? Oh..... lol... they were just borrowing their equipment to make calls around the World for free!!! btw... for you imbeciles that's even worse than what pirates do today. Where it's more like stealing the food a restaurant throws away at the end of the night. It's called waste over runs and it's part of every business and that's figured into the price of their food/products sold to YOU.

Well except electronic methods of transfer here, where the loss can never be proven. Only guesstimated and that... these companies exaggerate to make even more money off a product with as high as a 1000% mark up. So Companies (RIAA) always over estimate the loss damage, because they can't be proven wrong. But that hardly proves they lost anything at all and it's just a means to eliminate all costs over runs (spoilage, theft, acts of nature, corruption, etc) to ZERO.... for 100% profit on the sale of their non-physical products!

Hell.... the next thing you know we'll have Sony and CrApple's 1984 Thought Police knocking on our doors claiming we stole their "THOUGHTS"!!! lol.... worse yet.... Pre-Crime units storming your house and giving YOU the death penalty for crimes that never got committed!

btw... in all actuality the Companies never lose anything. Because those of us that pay ridiculous prices for games more than pay for all the pirated games too! Like insurance or gambling dealer..... they never really lose anything in the end, because we are forever paying more than what something is actually worth.... just to keep up with the Jones! ^_^

Elessar said,

Yes, completely. Hacking never leads to anything good, no matter what people try to use as an excuse, the majority is always harmed more than helped. I haven't been able to play a fair game of MW2 in weeks. And I wouldn't be surprised if developers are hesitant to develop for the system in it's current state.

MW2 problems are not these hacker's fault. That was done the day the game came out through those looking for code flaws (bugs and exploits) in the game. That you can only blame the game makers for in sloppy game making or releasing a products before it should be!

If MW2 was a perfect game, you wouldn't have the exploits and hacks going on today. On the other hand, why aren't other games having problems? Maybe because they are better coded and the companies don't have to lie and blame these system hackers for cracking their code!

Ryoken said,
The internet is Guaranteed to be used for Piracy, what about people that make routers, Ethernet cables, etc ?
It's also guaranteed to be used for Terrorism, and Child Pornography..

For that matter, the Popcorn Hour, WDTV Live, CD's, DVD's, and many other things are also Guaranteed to be used for piracy.. That doesn't mean we ban and sue everyone involved with them.

He created a tool that COULD be used for piracy, but that's not the only thing it could be used for.

+1 thats a good statement

HAHAH are you kidding me?? they're suing a nerd living in the basement? lol No offense to Geohot intended but really.

Enjoy his every day belongings lol

Loosers sorry lol it's so stupid.