Editorial

Sorry, Microsoft, but consumers just don't like you

“So, what do you think of Windows 8?” If I had a dollar for every time that question has been asked of me, I’d be a rich man. Sadly, those who ask for my opinion in that regard rarely do me the courtesy of paying for my time, but invariably, once they’ve heard my thoughts on Microsoft’s latest operating system, they see fit to return the favour by sharing their own opinions with me.

In my professional and social activities, I get to hear these musings from a pretty broad range of individuals – from the Trend Micro reps I chatted with at Mobile World Congress, to the Huawei executive I bumped into at the airport, to the staffer from The Telegraph that I drunkenly tried (and failed) to chat up on a night bus, to friends and family.

I hear from those who have bought shiny new Windows 8 notebooks; those who have upgraded their older PCs to the latest Windows version; those who are wondering if they should upgrade; and those who use Macs and despise Windows. Everyone, it seems, has an opinion.

With few exceptions, those opinions are far from positive. Those who have used Windows 8 express frustration; the dichotomy between the Desktop and Metro is confusing, the Start button is missing, the apps are lacking. Those who are on the fence express apprehension; they’ve heard less than glowing reviews about Windows 8 from friends and in the media, and are nervous about taking the plunge. Those who have no intention of ever using Windows 8 express satisfaction; what better vindication of their own choice, after all, than to know that the path not taken leads only to woe?

Whomever I speak with, the common factor in almost all of the conversations that I have about Windows 8 is the impression of negativity that seems to have pervaded consumer consciousness. There is no love, no affection, no emotional attachment whatsoever, it seems, among the overwhelming majority of consumers for Windows.


New Windows devices will keep on emerging - but are they what consumers want?

Of course, my anecdotal ramblings can hardly be used to declare universal consumer antipathy towards Windows 8 across the entire market. There is, you’ll no doubt be relieved to hear, more to it than that.

Earlier this month, research firms Gartner and IDC released figures which pointed to a significant fall in global PC shipments of between 11.2% and 13.9% over the last quarter. This drop was far higher than expected; IDC had previously predicted a decrease of 7.7%. But, I hear you say, but, but, but… Microsoft just posted record revenues of $20.49bn for Q1, and – and – the Windows division reported an increase in revenues of 23%! So Windows revenues were up even as PC shipments were down – Microsoft is obviously doing something right, right?

The story is more complex than those figures suggest. As Charles Arthur, technology editor at The Guardian, explains, $1.1bn of the $5.7bn revenue for the Windows division was deferred from revenues generated by the pre-launch $15 Windows 8 upgrade offer given to those purchasing Windows 7 PCs in mid-2012. Business sales of Windows 7 licences to companies migrating from Windows XP - reacting to the final death knell of its demise next year - also gave things a boost, as did sales of Microsoft’s Surface tablets, which also come under the Windows division.


Revenues from this mid-2012 promotion contributed to Windows division revenues in Q1 2013

That Windows division revenues have been propped up by a pre-launch promotion, Windows 7 enterprise sales and Surface hardware sales doesn't exactly point to Windows 8 being a runaway success among consumers since its launch. Whichever way you spin the numbers, Surface - with Windows RT and Windows 8 Pro - hasn’t exactly taken the market by storm. While Surface sales helped to top up Windows division revenues, it’s widely believed that Microsoft has sold fewer than 1.5m of its tablets since launch last year.

In the last quarter of 2012, Apple sold 22.9m iPads. This is an unfair comparison like-for-like, of course, as the Surface launched halfway through that quarter, in far fewer markets than those in which the iPad is sold – but it puts into perspective just how large the gap is between sales of Microsoft’s tablets and those of its fiercest rival.

Things aren’t much better for Microsoft in mobile, which has largely been a consumer story so far, although businesses are starting to adopt Windows Phone, albeit slowly. Fans of the Windows Phone platform may point to the success that Nokia recently announced, in revealing that sales of its Lumia handsets jumped 27% over the previous quarter to 5.6m units. But to put that figure into context, the AdDuplex advertising network revealed earlier this month that Nokia represents 80% of Windows Phone sales, which points to total sales across the platform of around 7m for the first three months of the year. This might sound like a lot, until you consider that Samsung sold 10m Galaxy S III handsets in the two months up to January 14 this year, with total sales now in the region of 50m. 

Windows Phone is growing, but not fast enough. It hasn’t helped Microsoft’s cause that it hit the reset button on its mobile platform when it dead-ended Windows Phone 7. Many people – especially those who bought the then-new Lumia 900 just a few months before being told that it, like other WP7 handsets, wouldn’t be upgraded to Windows Phone 8 – were furious over that debacle. Many who had previously sung Windows Phone’s praises turned to badmouthing the product to anyone who would listen. Much of the good will that Microsoft had built up among early adopters was quickly incinerated; Microsoft naysayers had a field day.

Microsoft's great hope for Windows Phone lies in emerging markets, with billions of potential sales up for grabs, particularly at the lower end of the market. But in these price-sensitive markets, cheaper Android handsets and well-featured 'semi-smart' devices like the Nokia Asha range may well present a more appealing prospect. There have been some successes in more mature markets; countries such as Italy and Finland have seen Windows Phone soar into double-digit market shares, but in North America, Nokia Lumia sales fell to a pitiful 400,000 devices - a shocking 42.8% drop over the previous quarter's sales across the continent.


The less said about this, the better...

The problem that Microsoft faces in trying to market its products to consumers is that people are undeniably willing, almost to the point of being eager, to believe the worst about it.

Look at Google, for example, which has faced plenty of accusations over privacy concerns in recent years, and is now dealing with numerous investigations over possible anti-competitive behaviour. Consider Apple too, which had to deal with the iPhone 4 ‘Antennagate’ furore, and the embarrassingly poor quality of its Maps app. Yet in these instances, and others, consumers have quickly moved beyond these companies’ controversies, and returned to faithfully buying their products in the millions.

But consumers seem to have curiously long memories when it comes to Microsoft. The company’s frequent brushes with antitrust regulators, and its monolithic and often arrogant reputation, remain etched in the broader consumer consciousness as an affirmation that Microsoft is the big, evil conglomerate attempting to control and manipulate its way to the top. It’s perhaps fair to say that few consumers would articulate their impressions of Microsoft with specific reference to its anti-competitive actions of yesteryear, but fewer still would have kind words to say about what the company has since become if ‘antitrust’ and ‘Microsoft’ were uttered in the same sentence.

To put it simply, people don’t really like Microsoft. For the most part, they have no reason to. When commentators write about the “post-PC era” and the imminent death of Microsoft, others leap to the company’s defence by pointing to its immense strength in business and enterprise. But from a consumer viewpoint, this in itself represents a significant part of the problem.

Hundreds of millions of people use Windows operating systems at work; it’s a functional medium for them to perform the tasks that need to be completed. But workers who use Windows don’t like Windows; they don’t love using Office. For the most part, they’re completely indifferent to it; when it goes wrong, they get annoyed by it. Windows and Office may be a key part of keeping the world turning with its presence in just about every industry and sector in the world, but for the most part, the only emotional responses it elicits are negative ones.


It may not be fair, but for many, this is the first thing that comes to mind when they think of Windows.

Once we accept this simple truth, the problem that Microsoft faces in winning over consumers becomes easier to understand, though no easier to address. Consumers hear about how their friends and family love their iPads; but when the persistent impression that they retain of Windows is tainted by the Blue Screen of Death and having to call the IT department to resolve a problem on their workstation, the prospect of choosing a Windows tablet over an iPad becomes far less appealing.

Consumers love their phones; they’re incredibly personal devices with which many of us form an almost irrational connection, feeling discombobulated when we lose them or run out of battery – but when the underlying impression of Windows is far from positive, why, oh why, would consumers want to have Windows on their phones? Hell, people even like using Google, as illogical as that sounds - I've heard far more non-techy users sing the praises of Google Search, Maps, Shopping or Gmail than those who have tried using equivalent services from Microsoft.

Perhaps the only major Microsoft brand that consumers have any strong, positive emotional connection with is Xbox. For years, the company kept it at arm’s length from the rest of its operations, with only limited references to its Microsoft lineage, evidently recognising that drawing a connection between the two might do more harm than good. More recently, Microsoft has seen the value of the equity it has built in the Xbox brand, giving the console’s dashboard a Metro-style update, and rebranding and integrating its entertainment services into its phone and PC offerings.

Metro – or whatever the hell Microsoft wants to call it these days – is the glue that binds its consumer offerings together: Windows Phone, Windows 8, Windows RT and Xbox, along with its various online services, such as Outlook.com and SkyDrive. The unprecedented integration of all of these services, working harmoniously together with a unified visual experience is key to winning over the hearts and minds of consumers.

The imminent launch of the next-generation Xbox – along with devices that are less focused on gaming, and more on consumption of content, such as the ‘Xbox Surface’ tablet and ‘Xbox TV’ set-top box – will help to strengthen the company’s consumer credentials. But up against its more established and entrenched rivals (particularly the iPad and Apple TV), it remains to be seen just how great the impact of these products will be in winning over consumers to Microsoft’s other complementary products.


Is Xbox Microsoft's last great hope at winning over the hearts and minds of consumers?

Microsoft is also working tirelessly to revolutionise its overall approach to development of its customer-facing products. Neowin’s senior editor, Brad Sams, has been closely following the company’s efforts in this respect, as it focuses on a more regular and frequent cycle of updates to ensure that it doesn’t fall behind in its efforts to stay competitive with its rivals.

There’s evidence too that the company is paying closer attention to user feedback; the Start button may soon return in Windows 8.1 in a significant gesture to users (albeit an almost entirely superficial one, since the restored button will simply perform the same function as the ‘invisible’ button at the bottom left hot corner: launching the Metro-style Start screen). Users may even be able to bypass the Metro environment almost completely by booting their PCs directly to the Desktop.

But will this make any difference to consumers?


Start, again - the greatly missed button looks set to make a comeback in Windows 8.1.

The way that we use devices is changing rapidly. Getting the most from the web no longer requires a PC with a home internet connection; being productive no longer requires a computer with Microsoft Office. The iPad – and the legions of Android tablets on the market – are all selling just fine without Office to boost their productivity credentials, and while there are certainly those that prefer to work on a full-size notebook, plenty of others have acclimatised to getting work done on an tablet. Microsoft's rival smartphone platforms, meanwhile, perform most of the essential roles that users demand on a day-to-day basis, with many thousands of apps not yet available on Windows Phone.

To paint this picture in broader strokes, users are becoming increasingly accustomed to life beyond Microsoft.

In greater and greater numbers, users are discovering that they no longer need PCs to do what they need to do, as the substantial fall in PC shipments shows. While Windows remains an essential tool in the workplace, the draw to Windows for individuals spending their own money isn’t so powerful. When other devices that perform all the same tasks and run all the same apps – and more – are available with iOS and Android, the prospect of owning a Windows tablet just isn’t that appealing; the idea of owning a Windows Phone even less so.


Many of the apps seen here don't exist yet - and that... that's a problem.

It’s hard to imagine how this situation might change. The consumer tech industry is engaged in a battle of ecosystems, and in addition to the problem of antipathy that Microsoft faces, it also has to deal with the continuing reality that its ecosystem is still lagging far behind those of its principal rivals. Important apps – the ones that matter to users – are either still missing on Microsoft’s platforms, or arriving weeks and months behind their launch on iOS and Android. This sad state of affairs only reinforces the perception problem that Microsoft is up against.

Microsoft is in no danger of going away any time soon, and its new focus on software-as-a-service and extensive efforts to establish a world-leading cloud solution through Windows Azure will ensure its continued relevance to organisations for many years to come. But in the consumer space, Microsoft faces a hostile audience that has become accustomed to a brave new world of ecosystems that have so far offered far more than it has been able to deliver.


One small step into a brave new world of computing? Or one giant leap backwards?

It’s hard to not feel sorry for Microsoft – or at least as sorry as one can feel for a company that’s announced record multi-billion dollar revenues. There’s still much to criticise in their approach, of course. One has to wonder whether Windows Phone, for example, might be doing better if it wasn’t burdened with Windows branding; and there are oddities and annoyances like the appallingly tardy arrival of the updated online calendar, which was hardly worth the wait, or the sad state of the Mail and Xbox Music apps on Windows 8.

But the company is evidently working hard to change its ways, and the speed at which it’s been able to effect those changes has been, frankly, stunning for a multinational corporation of its size, particularly one that had become so bloated, lazy and complacent for too many years. Things are improving, across the board, and at a far greater pace than ever before. The improvements in Online Services and Office 365 especially are huge, and Microsoft is already implementing an incredible, ambitious strategy to ensure that those products don't stagnate, but rapidly improve even further over time. 

But no matter how quickly things get better, it feels like Microsoft will be playing catch-up in the consumer space for a long, long time to come. The Blue wave of updates to Windows 8/RT and Windows Phone already sound outstanding, but we're still months away from seeing them finalised and released to all end-users. While a considerable improvement on previous Windows releases, this speed of delivering improvements is far too lethargic when the products are in great need of more, regular enhancements to match fast-moving competitors. 

The tragedy, such as it is, is that consumers have no sympathy for Microsoft's plight, no appetite to give it the benefit of the doubt, no patience to wait for things to improve. Can Microsoft pull off the impossible, and accelerate its pace of change and the scale of its improvement even more? Can it improve so quickly and so significantly that it actually comes to exceed the expectations of consumers? Paul Thurrott probably put it best: "As Microsoft has shown again and again, you can't count out a firm that does its best work when under fire." 

Perhaps, one day, things will be different and Microsoft will have caught up, convinced the world that’s it not so big, bad and evil after all, and finally be ready to win over the hearts and minds of consumers. But when Microsoft's rivals keep on showing us amazing new devices and features every couple of months, it's far more likely, of course, that by then we’ll have all moved on to bigger and better things.

We consumers are such a fickle bunch. 

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what i would give to have functional android on my desktop ! win8 is just terrible, i uninstalled it after a month and went back to win7, if i could i would still use XP unfortunately its limited to DX9 so thats not an option anymore

I have to agree with the author of this post. Windows' greatest enemy, is Windows. If they'd called their phone OS something different, it probably would have caught on faster. Unfortunately, when people here the words "Windows" (whether or not it precedes "Phone"), they associate it with frustration, incompatibility, crashes, viruses, and all-out stupidity.

On the other hand, every last one of the few family and friends I know to be using Windows Phones, absolutely love them (actually, I think that's more a function of them wanting to be different...and quite a few didn't realize it was made by the same people who made their PC OS). Which makes me wonder: are people not "in love" with Windows because they can't get past the negative compulsory reaction to anything named "Windows"? Or is it a genuine, logical hatred?

windows phones will appeal to a small portion of the population do to its simplicity and easy to use limited features, that simplicity is the reason most people will hate it.. i do not want big bulky tiles on my screen, and i want to have endless options, i want a 1000 icons if i chose to... BUT like i said windows phones have a future because there is a lot of people who are technologically challenged

" Is Xbox Microsoft's last great hope at winning over the hearts and minds of consumers?"

I would say no. The first Xbox was smashed to the ground by its main competitor: Playstation 2 and the Xbox 360 had a HUGE launch problem, all the people I encountered the "Red Ring of Doom"... yes, they got a replacement but many of them switched to Playstation 3 later on - because packaging the console was both time consuming and frustrating. Its reputation took a big hit.

And consoles markets change, the companies responsible come and go (with the exception of Sony and Nintendo)

"Hell, people even like using Google, as illogical as that sounds - I've heard far more non-techy users sing the praises of Google Search, Maps, Shopping or Gmail than those who have tried using equivalent services from Microsoft."

I know this is pro-Microsoft site but... Why is liking Google "illogical"?

You talk about Xbox like it offers the company some hope for the future.....you obviously neglected to include all the negative press and vitirol hatred against it's DRM policies and always on requirement.

Recent press suggests this may be left up to the publisher to use for their games if required; or something needed to stop used games....profit related or otherwise.

All in all though, I would say people will treat the new xbox the same way they did/do with windows 8....and we all know how that is panning out.

Microsoft is entering it's renaissance. I remember loving windows 95, then came internet explorer - that single program with it's popups, adware, poor security and non compliance spoke volumes about the company. Add in the anti-trust and that each iteration of windows never did much more then the last but get junked up and I was became a (like a lot of people) a hater.
Scroll forward to windows 7 - nothing innovative about it. Hotmail stagnated, office practically no different for years. Microsoft became a commodity. No inspiration and little relevance.

Enter Windows 8 and the unification of all of the services (not complete yet). I am still amazed. I went from upgrading a win7 desktop to buying an ultratablet to migrating phone within 5 months. For the first time I have a legal copy of Office which I subscribe to because its now affordable. I am going to get an Xbox when the new one comes out.

Best of all, I'm actually excited about blue because I know from old Microsoft what it can do when it wants to and has the drive. I am expecting a revolution with the phone interface (adding gestures and swipe menus like win8), office running in metro (might take a little longer but metro is completely capable) the completion of metro ui.

People like me loved to hate Microsoft because it was stale, but not anymore. Microsoft has done the biggest game changer in computing OS history and this is just the start.

MS is changing, and quite fast I think, for such a monolithic organisation. They've heard their customers, and the orb will be back with Blue (so they say). This means that consumers/workers can make their own choice. Corporates don't want to undertake expensive training for thousands of workers who resist change. But they have changed the OS landsape, and I don't see any going back. Soon, we'll be talking and using hand gestures and pens. Perhaps the mouse will fade away. Remember the leap from DOS to Windows? That changed everything - for the better. There will be some mess ups, but generally we are all venturing into a new tech future, dominated by the Internet.

you did notice they are bringing back the old button but not the old menu right ?
(if rumors are true)
so that means that Win 8.1 "blue" will have a button that loads the new modern/metro UI system and not the old start menu they removed.

This is the best hate-free article on Microsoft I have read in a very long time. I see it like this, too:

For people, Windows = Work. And, with your boss making choices for you when it comes to the PC/OS to use at work, you don't want work to intrude more into your private life than it already does.

Microsoft reminds me of that sad oddball uncle at family functions, whom everybody tries to avoid being seen chatting with.

Everything people throw at Microsoft sticks, whereas Apple, Google and Samsung are covered in some kind of negative mindshare repellant.

My take on Microsoft at this present time:

Windows 8 - Too drastic of a change for most consumers. While cold turkey is a good implementation method, it's looking to be the non-ideal one to have chosen.

Windows Phone 8 - I don't see enough effective marketing being done here. Keep the ads simple and show off the strengths of the platform. Keep the lack of app availability under the rug for now. In New Zealand, the three main Telco's have one of two Windows Phone devices situated amongst all the other phones with the iPhone having its own area to itself. 99% of the time the Windows Phones are dead because the USB is unplugged. At least spend some $$ ensuring Windows Phone's have a display to themselves or that the devices will always be in a usable state. Hell, I'd go around each store as some form of Microsoft rep and slap stores for not having the phone's charged and usable..

Surface/RT - My experience is limited. I've never seen any Surface's for sale. I've played on one RT device. I enjoyed it. But I don't get why there was a desktop when it's not Windows 8.. Keep it like Windows Phone 8. Even ditch RT and increase the resolutions and specs for a Windows Phone device to cover tablets..

the change wouldn't have been too drastic with some internal options to fall back on.. then there would have been virtually no risk. Either people used the new system and liked it or went back to using the old. Either way there is no risk they still have the customer unlike the numerous people here at neowin that BOUGHT windows 8 and dumped it. And there is more to it than that than just the start menu.. an optional alternate theme could have been added, they could have added the Windows 7 theme and called it "Classic"
The likelihood of losing customers would have been far less with options too.
For example I could imagine many people trying the new menu system and going back to the old and then going back to the new to give it another chance and if this was all easily accessible and built in to the OS with out the need for 3rd party programs it would have been smart.

Because Microsoft is not being driven by customer satisfaction but Shareholders call for more and more profits and revenue streams. So Microsoft is making bad, consumer unfriendly decisions. Examples: Like it or love it, people want a first-party official facebook app on their mobile phones. People don't like to web browse on their tiny smartphone except in emergencies. Microsoft wants to push it's People hub and its own limited facebook integration built-in to WP8 so they don't do whatever is necessary to get an official first-party facebook app and Instagram on the platform. They should pay facebook to make these apps and call it a day.

Windows 8 cannot sync with a Modern app to Surface's or WP8 (it has to use media player classic for WP8). This is because they want to push their Xbox Music subscription service, which most are disinterested in and sell videos through Xbox Video (which btw aren't viewable on a WP8 if you purchase them, WUT?).

Through greed and a Shareholder satisfaction focus, MS is making bad revenue seeking decisions which are not providing customer satisfaction or making the platform enticing to consumers eating up iOS and Androids.

If I was Apple, I would release iOS 7 and the new low-cost iPhones, with a Modern UI iTunes to sync iPhones and iPads with Windows 8 PCs. I think that would be a devastating gut shot to Microsoft.

MorganX said,
......

No, no no and no.
MS is driven by consumer satisfaction and telemetry says we're satisfied.
The people hub is a fantastic way to aggregate social enabling my contacts to manage their personal information. No longer do I have to say, "I got a new phone, please send me your #s". I laugh at those who do.

Your comment about sycning is weak. The collaboration between product groups was hampered by a certain individual who left as W8 rolled out the door. This will improve.

Shareholder greed? come on. The stock has remained relatively flat for many years, calling for many shareholders to say get rid of Ballmer. Guess who's still there today?
This isn't the fruit company whose shareholders just lost half their value.

iOS only maintains popularity because of legacy. Android had popularity because of the Anti-MS zealots in Telcos globally.

What is left after I block everything that is non work related on Metro on my network (or any network with higher security needs)? Why would we want it at all vs the competition IF the competition can be secured, or if we can divide secure and non secure devices for far cheaper?

thatmikeguy2 said,
....

Whatever you let your information systems teams build.
There's no reason you can't enjoy line of business Apps pushed from your SCCM, except your own reluctance to bring the platform in.

There have been many demos targeting certain industries, like healthcare showing how the charms bar integrates content types between apps.

But then again, you don't like something, so everyone at your organization suffers.

tiadimundo said,
That's why the Live Tiles are "live" and displaying content.

Dunno on my Windows 8 PC they mostly display an icon.

tiadimundo said,
That's why the Live Tiles are "live" and displaying content.

What we will learn from Windows 95 = people hate animated icons.

an icon ? a flat monochrome ugly icon i bet lol

ugly windows lacking transparency using bad colors with ugly icons and a tacked on lame ribbon ui.. what ever then.. i guess we all have our own taste lol

I completely despise article names like that. No matter who you are, you have no right to make statements in place of others, especially "consumers" which is almost the same as saying "people".

I know right specially companies like "Microsoft" saying customers don't want this, don't need that, don't care about that. This is what they really want, need and care about. You know speaking for the customers as in having a right to speak for me or anyone else.
/s

Superboy said,
I know right specially companies like "Microsoft" saying customers don't want this, don't need that, don't care about that. This is what they really want, need and care about. You know speaking for the customers as in having a right to speak for me or anyone else.
/s

they're simply guessing what people want in long term perspective. You're free to use other OS's

MS was bouncing down the road with four flat tires during the Vista years. With Win 7 they turned into the corner, with Win 8 they have rounded the corner, the straightaway is coming, and MS will be moving ahead nicely.

Of course it's a rough ride, writing miles of code isn't easy, making comments and swaying opinions on blogs is. I give them credit for pushing ahead, persevering and never giving up. Anyone that thinks MS won't make it through this rough ride, doesn't have their head far enough into the cloud.

At first, I hated Windows 8. I was bitter about the lack of the classic Start button/menu and I despised the Start Screen. It wasn't until I got a Windows Phone 8 device that I decided to give Windows 8 a chance. All I did to give myself a similar experience to Windows 7 was use Start8, boot directly to the desktop, and disable the lock screen.

Now, I find that the theme in Windows 8 is a little easier on the eyes than the semi-transparent Aero theme in Windows 7. I rarely use the Start Screen so that doesn't bother me and I've learned to use shortcuts that I would have never used in Windows 7.

Overall, I'm content with Windows 8. I don't hate it as much as I thought I would and I'm more than happy with my WP8 device. I think Microsoft has a chance to get things right with Windows Blue/Windows Phone Blue and Windows 9/Windows Phone 9. Their best chance at success is intertwining Windows with Windows Phone and Xbox.

Remember, Microsoft was able to bounce back from the Windows ME disaster. I'm sure they'll survive this time around too.

Well, some people at Microsoft thought that going back to the 80's UI is the key to success. Someone also thought that raping the current desktop and remove the customer of choice, is the key to success.

Some people also think that Windows Phones will succeed when they have no good flagship phones at all available.

Surface and Surface RT? Jokes.

I think the problem is that people in charge at Microsoft have no clue what they are doing. Historical downfall of a giant? Slowly but surely.

"The story is more complex than those figures suggest. As Charles Arthur, technology editor at The Guardian, explains, $1.1bn of the $5.7bn revenue for the Windows division was deferred from revenues generated by the pre-launch $15 Windows 8 upgrade offer given to those purchasing Windows 7 PCs in mid-2012."

Charles Arthur was challenged on this deferred payment by the Guardian readers. $1.1 billion divided by $15 = 73.3 million licences sold of Windows 8 by just those upgrading their Window 7 laptops. Yet as of January MS had revealed a total figure 60 million Window 8 sales.....Someone please explain or is that statement wrong??

To be honest you cannot compare apple and microsoft. Microsoft if purely a software company and any hardware is just an extra.

Mr. Andy Weir, refreshing and insightful article, and just when I was beginning to think this site had turned into a paid marketing site for Microsoft. There are a lot of inconvenient truths in the article and MS would do well to heed them.

Time for them to take a fearless moral inventory and decide if continuing to alienate desktop users is the wisest choice going forward. The mobile platform war is already over, sadly it seems they're hellbent on wasting hundreds of millions trying to roll back a clock that cannot be rolled back.

Dudebroh said,
.....

Telemetry tells a different story.

If every hater of the new Microsoft would opt into the customer experience improvement program, maybe this article would be less biased and more factual.
As it stands, edge cases that are the 'technologically elite' are ignored by MS because they opt out of telemetric feedback.

YOU did this to YOURSELF.

I don't believe Microsoft uses the telemetry wisely anyways.
they said that almost no one uses the Start Menu and what do they go and do. Make a "whole Start Screen" if they would have gone back to Win 3.1 Program Manager where there is no Start Menu then I would see the connection with the Telemetry but the way they did it I just don't see it.

why delete the old menu now 2013 and why was no one complaining before windows 8 was released about how bad the start menu system is ? i don't recall hearing ONE single complain in my life !

In order for any of the usual Windows 8 fan rhetoric to be true there must have been an overwhelmingly evident EXISTING problem. There wasn't though.

Microsoft has universally been terrible at user interface design. That's why many hate their desltpå OS even if they can't pinpoint it to that.

Windows Phone is absolutely ghastly for web developers, thanks to its poor browser and lack of debugging tools (I work on a Mac - I don't want to run Windows in a virtual machine which runs WP8 emulator virtual machine just so I can debug Javascript on the phone). Plus it's pretty awkward to use when you have lots of content and apps on it.

LaXu said,
Microsoft has universally been terrible at user interface design.

LOL what about Aqua, or the current OS X design? That's what I call terrible UIs. In fact, MS has been setting the standard for UI design for a long time: I remember many designers copying the Luna design when XP came out, same thing happened when Vista was released and everyone started using glossy gradients, reflections and transparencies (that's so 2007!).

Believe it or not, there are many people who love Windows 8. Unlike this article written by an Apple fanboy.

But the Apple fanboys live in their little fantasy world, spreading their blatant lies. And yes they are lies. Then they wonder why so many people hate Apple fanboys.

Who is the idiot writing this crap? And why is neowin letting a wannabe writer post this crap that is nothing but a biased article?

Funny, he has it all backwards... Far more people hate Apple... And that is FACT. The PC controls 90% of the market compared to Apple. That speaks for itself about which people prefer.

Microsoft may have help PC sales to decline but they are not 'wholly' responsible. The General populace are loosing interest in the computer that sits in the corner of the room, even laptops can seem large - mobile computing is what they have been sold. MS have now got an OS that can reinvigorate older PCs, postponing a potential new PC purchase by a year or three and can be a bridge to phones, tablets, phonlets, phablets or what ever name you care to give them. Anecdotally I know of three non IT users that were considering a new PC and have now upgraded to Win 8 and got machines that start and shutdown quickly and are smooth and stable in-between. Yes, the start button absence is annoying, but no more annoying than changing cars and finding the horn not on the indicator stalk but on the steering wheel, for a while you try and blow the horn but instead 'turn left' ;-) Two of these Win 8 user just put Classic Shell on and are happy.

My 75 year old father was not phased by the missing start button. However I am not trying to defend MS. MS got lethargic and arrogant, (something that has happened to other successful, large companies). MS need to wake up to the changing world and perhaps allow user customisation. Do I want a start button and menu Y/N and so on, (Win 8.1 may do that?). Perhaps an almost modular OS. If you only ever play Solitaire - simple gaming module, Company of Heroes 2 - extreme gaming module. I agree with Spoetnik. MS have been saying you must do it this way, not would you like to to try it this way with a reset to the way I prefer button.

MS have an opportunity to pick them selves up and offer people what they might want. Apple are producing good tech but people are starting to to get a little tired of the closed culture, someone further up said Apple are getting 'stale'.

Win 8 might be a slow burner and perhaps in a year when we look back the sales might not be a dire as suggested. MS made a stab and an OS for the future, a future where so much is changing quickly. The lifecycle of new technology is getting shorter along with the attention spans of a lot of people, the "20 yr olds" mentioned earlier are used to contract mobiles being replaced at 12 /18 or 24 mths, or PAYG almost disposable handsets so their feeling is other tech should be the same. Why invest in a relatively expensive PC or even more expensive MAC when it will appear to be old after 12 months. Android is not there yet, Chromebooks are really just a browser and not much more BUT the principle of an OS on a device that might be £50 of £450 give people the choice. Linux, (I'm sorry I'm not trying to offend) is niche, most people just can't be bothered finding out.

The demise of the PC will be slower than the media will have us believe. The type of devices we will be using will be diverse. I suppose the analogy would be like broadcast TV. Initially a small number of terrestrial channels had large audiences, Today TV audiences are fragmented over hundreds channels. MS will have their space in there, it is entirely up to them what portion of that market has their logo stamped on it.

WP8 and W8 is perfect. eg Nokia lumia 920 is perfect. More amazing from iphone 5 by far. Do you prefer Apple sucks MacosX or chrome os (awful)? Are you kidding me? sheep fanboys and fanatic for apple or google. Μercy.
The only negative for me everything is more expensive in windows store (and without updates for more apps).

Wow, saying Windows Phone/Windows 8 is perfect and then calling people who prefer Apple's Google's products and services fanboys.

Nice one.

Look to Windows-8, Office 365, pandering to table users, and hawking the "cloud" as one's savior as a few reasons customers no longer like you. Users don't like being screwed, period.

Table users ? Is that a James Hetfield joke ? lol
And oh do i hate all this cloud crap.. i think they invented that campaign of garbage as a n excuse to tell people in some countries that is why retail disc's for software costs 3x more in your country lol

And no they don't like being screwed but are you a customer or are you a whiny vocal minority complainer with no credibility etc.. ?
I find this story interesting because of the war that windows 8 triggered, it really seemed like the tipping point to an explosion that was set off when Windows 8 RTM'd.
Watching people try and justify changes in Windows 8 is super entertaining lol
And why would many of these people be so heavily invested in doing this ?
Why do people feel the need to dump raw hate on people that do not like Windows 8 when the so called Windows 8 haters are for the most part just asking for some options..
we aren't trying to take away things from fans that like windows 8 we just wanted to be included and instead we are told we are scum and our opinions are worthless and again we're not doing that to the other side.. its really not fair. We have a serious problem if people feel they can't speak up when they don't like something.

I really think that Windows Phone 8 is the best mobile OS out there. People need to give it a proper try/chance. However, Windows 8 on desktop/laptop machines is a total joke. Trying to use one paradigm for all is just not logical.

The major issue "normal" users have is the lack of apps they want, and already having brought into iOS or Android. Microsoft was late to the party, so this is no big surprise.

I like (and use) WP 7, but I'm not a big app user.

virtorio said,
The major issue "normal" users have is the lack of apps they want, and already having brought into iOS or Android. Microsoft was late to the party, so this is no big surprise.

I like (and use) WP 7, but I'm not a big app user.

Agreed, people need to get out of the idea that apps are required for eveything with Windows Phone and give it a chance.

I feel that the app-centric paradigm is getting stale now. Ironically, the one company that is trying to change that is, at least according to this editorial, the one that ALL consumers don't like, Microsoft.

More healthy companies=more competition=better products for all of us.

What a great time to be alive. So many options. It's great!!!

and yet, windows dominates. move on overzealous neowin blogger, MSFT isn't going away.

macs, failed. chromebooks, failed. nexus 10, failed. all went against windows and lost.

MSFT's big comeback is just getting started. it is unavoidable and unstoppable. and while google/apple will remain, so will windows.

Macs did not fail! If only Linux and Mac OS supported my programs and games, I would have left years ago. I will go out on a limb and say millions of Windows users would leave if the other smaller guys were supported. Microsoft has the luxury of support from software and game companies. The only really good Microsoft software is Office, though that is getting stale also.

I agree with what you said and i am for sure viewed as a Microsoft hater but they do a TON of stuff i love though, so much so that i use windows almost exclusively. When Microsoft does something right its great.
I want and hope Windows 8 or even 9 can transition to being more inclusive rather than dividing us up into 2 groups at war. It would be good for everyone and i think it boils down to having options. The cost vs the negativity means to me they should just make us ALL happy. It's worth it !

I don't think Microsoft is going anywhere, they will be around for a long time to come regardless of whether a specific project is considered a failure or not.

JHBrown said,
If only Linux and Mac OS supported my programs and games, .... Microsoft has the luxury of support from software and game companies.....

There is a reason and it's not a luxury given to MS, it was earned through decades of providing the best tools, frameworks and OS to run this **** on.

*Nix's are limited in their flexibility compared to WindowsNT.
SInce OSX is a *Nix variant, it fits.

the key part of this story that should have been highlighted and front and center is the evolution of windows as a product and the frustration and inevitable disinterest that would soon follow. As much as I dislike windows 8 putting the blame on Microsoft's current position solely on windows 8 is just dumb. They have been making poor decisions for ages and ask any experienced computer user if they have good ideas for Windows and when they thought of them.. i have had lots of cool ideas, many of which should be totally obvious "goes with out saying" stuff yet version after version of windows i see a worse and worse end result. Want to be a winner in business Microsoft ? Want Windows 8 to a be a shining star that grabs ALL people and not just part of the market ? Well i would have done things like make it possible to disable the Modern start screen and a start button and make it possible to boot to the desktop (with the old start menu)
I also say they should have done this all with control panel settings BUT i still think they should have left it the way it is now by default so they can get people to TRY the new stuff and THEN if they don't like it kill it.. I also would have done stuff like revamp the classic mode Windows theme's so instead of what we are used to i would have added into windows 8 the Windows 7 default style but called it classic.
My point here is Microsoft has been getting on my nerves for a LONG time now, this has little to do with windows 8 actually and this important fact makes me wonder how old some of the vocal experts are. Some 20 yr old kid who got a tech related job doesn't mean much to me.. Man hours wise etc i couldn't fathom how much experience i have, it's staggering and it does matter when i'm discussing things that kids were not even aware of when i was programming or whatever.

As a developer, I have kind of a love-hate relationship with Microsoft. On one hand, they make the best tools and frameworks. I would cry if I couldn't use C#, .NET and Visual Studio. On the other, they often suddenly kill the technologies they have most evangelized. It's not even clear what the future of .NET is at this point; what's clear is that the Windows team doesn't like it one bit. WinRT is a significant victory for Windows over .NET, and that doesn't bode too well for the future.

funny COKid lol

that's like saying everyone has nipples.. nope, i seen a guy on Tosh.0 the other night where the guy grabbed a razor blade and pliers and cut off his nipples and put them on a table. it was pretty bloody and surprising they would should that on tv lol
So "everybody" may not be entirely accurate lol

Fully agree with this article - besides, we're referring to the feelings of the general populace and even if the media and the populace's perception of Microsoft is unjustly negative, it's still their perception and it shouldn't matter to you or I on this site that it is so.

the perception of some bloggers yes. xbox is a huge hit, and in an age where perceptions change from generation to generation, the old wood bloggers of the days where bashing MSFT was cool are an endangered species.

how about perceptions change because they can and should ?
having a stab at people over their age doesn't seem relevant to me and i see what your saying but i don't agree.. I take things as they are and re-evaluate things as information comes in. its called being objective. I would be concerned if people's opinions did not change at all !

spoetnik said,
how about perceptions change because they can and should ?
having a stab at people over their age doesn't seem relevant to me and i see what your saying but i don't agree.. I take things as they are and re-evaluate things as information comes in. its called being objective. I would be concerned if people's opinions did not change at all !

Hmm. You're right in that perceptions can and should change. But I would apply a litmus test first to see if this perception is worth changing. For instance, if it was about some form of public policy - commuting patterns is a great example. The perception that people will always rely on private cars to get everywhere. That is something that in my view is worth changing in light of cities getting jammed with traffic - because at the end it does affect us all.

I just don't see the value in changing perceptions when it comes to technology companies though. It's not like my neighbourhood all strictly locked into Apple's garden or my hangout buddies all stuck in Google or you guys all on Microsoft's would significantly alter my tech choices - might sway me a bit, sure, but definitely not a daily effect.

Way to go with the title there Andy, making it sound like ALL consumers dislike Microsoft. Have you asked ALL the consumers in the world if they dislike them?

Whole article could be shortened into a few sentences.
Anti-MS bias.
And now Windows 8 bias, people getting confused, a start screen and optional Modern make Windows entirely unusable!

notice the guy above you said what you said kinda but didn't act like a jerk about it ?
And if you wanna act like that don't be surprised when you get Ant-Bias opinion stories..
you guys bring it on to yourselves with the relentless jabs at those who do not agree with you .

I'm not a fan of Modern either, I rarely use it (usually to check out whats new in the store). I do like the start screen.
And its fine if people have opinions about it, but most people hating on Windows 8, are spreading FUD and they're biased. If you're to blind to see that, that isnt my fault. I do try to defend Windows 8 in the points people are just completely wrong in. The OS isnt rubbish, the OS isnt awfull and the OS shouldn't receive even 1/4th of the hatred it is receiving. All just because of an optional Modern.
I dont attack those that have more reasoning then "Windows 8 sucks because of Modern". There is plenty that needs improvement in Windows, always has been and always will be. If we could all keep it to constructive criticism, then a lot of people wouldnt feel the need to defend, nor will a lot of people feel the need to keep attacking.

I use Windows 8 and it works great. I guess I'm in the minority because I have no problem with the start screen. I boot my computer open mail and chrome and i'm happy. I have an Xbox and I loved it (Halo 4 was fricking amazing). I don't really have any issues with Microsoft right now.

They got arrogant, and stopped caring about what their customers want. They lied and said people rarely use the start button even just to suit the changes the Windows team wanted to make. They took a beloved UI and turned it to trash with Metro, without so much as caring about what their billions of customers thought.

Basically, they tried to pull a colossal Apple move and force something on it's users. They failed.

I honestly thought, before this whole Windows 8 debacle, that Microsoft were becoming a likable and trendy sort of a company.

They've always been the professional company, not the fun loving one. That won't change.

But seriously. Windows 8 was a complete dick move on their part. The Windows 8 fans can say whatever they want, but their argument is completely null and void. Why? Look at the dismal market share. Look at the IT professionals agreeing the Windows 8 has played a major part in the drop in PC sales. Look at all the sales people around the world stating that people are specifically asking not to have Windows 8, or paying extra to downgrade to Windows 7.

The fact heads haven't rolled in the Windows business at MS is absolutely amazing. Hopefully they know just how lucky they are to still be in their role after this pathetic excuse for as OS.

Nashy said,
Look at the dismal market share.

Dismal market share... you mean ~5% in 6 months, eclipsing both Android tablets and iPads? Windows 8 is the fastest growing OS today. This includes Android and iOS. At its current rate of growth it will surpass OSX in a few months, a market share that took decades to build. It surpassed Android tablets in mere days, and iPad just last month after it had a 3 year head start. So dismal.

http://gs.statcounter.com/#os-ww-weekly-201307-201316

Look at the IT professionals...

You mean like the 10,000 IT professionals surveyed by Forrestor, 30% of whom, more than for any other OS including iOS and Android, specified they wanted a Windows 8 tablet as their next tablet OS.

http://blogs.forrester.com/f/b...on/tablet_os_preference.jpg

...agreeing the Windows 8 has played a major part in the drop in PC sales.

You mean a major part in the PC industry that has been in decline since 2010, and before Windows 8 was even announced or was in anyone's hand?

https://www.google.com/search?...ax%3A10%2F26%2F2012&tbm=

(The above is a link to a google search for "pc industry decline" specified to the range of 1/1/2010 - 10/26/2012, the day Windows 8 was released. You'll find dozens upon dozens of articles talking about the PC industry in decline. Somehow they fail to mention Windows 8, even though as you point out it is *clearly* the culprit.)

Look at all the sales people around the world stating that people are specifically asking not to have Windows 8, or paying extra to downgrade to Windows 7.

Ah right, the world renowned annual Best Buy salesman floor report... is that where you got your data? You wouldn't be bringing anecdotes to the table, now would you? And this wouldn't be contradicted by hard sales data, like 4 million upgrades on launch day, 40 Million units in one month, 60 million units by year end, and again, a market share that eclipses both iPad and Android tablets. But no, Windows 8 isn't selling, and everyone is downgrading to Windows 7. Except that Windows 7 market share has been stagnant (according to Net Applications) or declining (according to stat counter) since the day Windows 8 was released. But your salesman data (and the rest of your ill-conceived rant) must be spot on.

You make some very valid points, which with the data, I can completely agree with. I can only go by what seem to be bias reports.

Now, onto market share. in around 5 months, Windows 8 has gained enough traction to not even equal what Windows 7 had in 1 month.

That's pathetic.


Lets also be clear, I don't care about Windows on a tablet. I think it looks great, apart from the desktop, but my PC is not a tablet. And the billions of Windows users currently, are not on tablets either.

As for the decline, fine, I guess your experts are right, the ones I read are wrong.

I am happy to leave personal experience out next time for you. I thought it was important to add it, especially considering sales reps deal with that every day of the week. But obviously not, stats say everything.

Might I also add that Microsoft are not happy with the sales of Windows 8 (http://www.extremetech.com/com...espond-to-customer-feedback) and the Start Button will be returning.

If that's not a big enough indication that this OS is rubbish, I don't know what is. People are no buying it. People don't want to buy it. It really is that simple.

yup that suck it up and stop whining because the start button is not coming back issue is pretty clear there IS in fact a problem so "they" can no longer deny this and say oh its just a vocal minority etc.

Blablabla, people calling Windows 8 rubbish are ridiculous.
The only thing 'forced' is the start screen. The rest is optional.
Also we're used to customizing our own desktop, no? This is one of the major strong points of Windows.
The setup is a few minutes faster then Win7, installing startisback, start8, classicshell etc takes a whole minute. Still faster.
The OS itself is rock solid, superior over Windows 7. But because an optional thing the whole OS gets hated..... Grow up please.

The start screen just so happens to be the thing I absolutely despise the most. I'm sorry, but it is that simple.

The setup time is meaningless considering I format once every 12 - 18 months. And I don't want to modify the OS to add something that IMHO Microsoft shouldn't have removed.

I have no doubt at all the the OS is rock solid. No doubt at all. That's not my gripe.

The removal of the start button, and menu is not optional. The addition to the charm bar junk is not optional. The metro horrible start screen is not optional. The settings in control panel which open into metro junk are not option.

It doesn't matter what start menu program you buy, you are never truly getting rid of one of the biggest hates of the OS as a whole.

Now, you Windows 8 lovers can come in here, talk about how good the start screen is, and talk about how amazing the operating system is, and I get that, it works for your needs. I purchased it, I installed it, I used it for a month. Not once did it feel right, not once did it feel natural, and I was never close to thinking it was intuitive. I requested a refund from Microsoft.

It doesn't work for my needs. I don't like it. The absolute biggest sour point should go to the lovers of the OS, simply not being able to accept that many, many, many people do not like Windows 8. It's just sad that you all think that because you love it, absolutely no one else can dislike it.

Bottom line, and I state it again. If Microsoft was happy with the terrible uptake, the Start button wouldn't be returning. We will soon see if that's enough to turn the OS around.

5 months to gain nearly the same market share as 7 did in less than a month. Something isn't right.

Shadowzz said,
Blablabla, people calling Windows 8 rubbish are ridiculous.
The only thing 'forced' is the start screen. The rest is optional.
Also we're used to customizing our own desktop, no? This is one of the major strong points of Windows.
The setup is a few minutes faster then Win7, installing startisback, start8, classicshell etc takes a whole minute. Still faster.
The OS itself is rock solid, superior over Windows 7. But because an optional thing the whole OS gets hated..... Grow up please.

The only thing forced ?
Well some people may be upset when windows update breaks the start menu they had to buy.. then what ? Tell your staff at work to keep working ?
And optional ? Like the Ribbon UI or Ugly windows and icons ?

Sorry but your enthusiasm is blinding but your not making any sense.
We get it you LOVE windows 8 but you can NOT force everyone else to.
someone needs to grow up and its not me

Windows 8 isn't the problem, if it wasn't that start menu issue - there was something else.

Google, Apple - these are "cool" companies, they can make ****ty products but people would ignore the bad stuff and use the product. Microsoft is not a "cool" company, it's as you HAVE to bash them, and they can make good products and no one will look at the good things about it, just point out the bad ones.

Honestly, I don't think this will ever change. Apple will be the sexy company, Google is the underdog and Microsoft is a boring business oriented company. This is how people see things, regardless of what's the realty.

Windows 8 is simply hideous and sucks on so many levels if you ask me, and although I do not care much about start button, for gods sake give users a choice, rather than forcing them to use a freaking start screen!!!!! Microsoft should follow Apple's example (iOS and Mac OSX) and build a completely different version of Windows 8 tailored for the desktop environment, definitelly with better GUI etc...

Let me get this straight.... in an effort to increase the choice they give to users, Microsoft should follow Apple's lead and release an OS as locked down as iOS? How do you open a file manager in iOS? How do you open a desktop in iOS? How do you manage external harddrives in iOS? How do you use a mouse in iOS? iOS is hardly a beacon of choice and openness. Windows 8 gives you the choice of what environment you want to use. You have so much freedom with Windows 8, you can easily transform it to look and act exactly like Windows 7. How do you think one would go about transforming iOS to look and act exactly like OSX?

Do you know how dumb your comment sounds given the fact that Apple gives their users like 0 choice on anything? And basically tells them what they want?

Dear author, this article really sounds like it was written by your grandfather. I'm sorry to say but how can you be so negative and backwards oriented?

And most of your arguments don't even make sense. In one sentence you say that more and more consumers don't want or need an old-school desktop PC anymore and in the next sentence you criticize that it was a mistake by Microsoft to enhance the Start experience to make it more consumer oriented. Okay.

Microsoft is not Windows 8. Don't forget the Xbox business and read this headline out loud again. Windows 8 is a new platform, a beginning and of course it isn't perfect in version 1.0 and the apps aren't there on day one but it is selling well, the hardware is slowly coming (hey, Surface Pro is only available in 3 countries!) and the next major updates are already around the corner.

I'm happy that I don't know your friends The people I talk to have a much more positive image of Windows. They see the new version as good as Windows 7 but even faster and more future proof.

BTW: Consumer ratings for Windows Phones are superior on Amazon and similar websites. Even for old models like the Nokia Lumia 900. Amazon's top 20 phones got 6 Windows Phones

Excellent article...your points are very well thought out! The main issue, when it's all boiled down is that users don't PREFER Microsoft products...they are essentially FORCED into them. Until there are competing products that rival the functionality and compatibility of MS Office, users will continue to be held hostage to the Windows environment. Fortunately, the Office competitors ARE getting better...but you still have a ton of games that only run in Windows as well as other software that people NEED to run...and it works only on Windows. This will change...especially as the developers realize that aligning themselves with Microsoft and Windows is not necessarily the best option (see Valve's Linux efforts for a good example).

For the "casual" computer user who only needs email access, Netflix and other content delivery applications tablets are where it's at...and NOTHING Microsoft has released or has in the pipeline is competitive with what is already on the market. Expect more and more "casual" users to migrate over to Android or iOS going forward. I have even heard of manufacturers planning Android "laptops" to fill the void that netbooks left behind!

In short, I see businesses continuing to use Windows 7 (not 8 if they can avoid it!), and consumers moving away from the desktop completely. Microsoft's days of dominance are over, and the company as a whole, while posting record profits, is coasting on inertia, eventually (sooner rather than later), that inertia will run out and MS will be dead in the water with ugly, BROKEN products that no one wants to use!

Windows users have felt like they are being held hostage for ages.. ask anyone about trying out linux gaming over the years. I think its funny how we are gonna put the blame on Windows 8 when it is nothing a but a small part of the whole puzzle.

It would be like saying Google is hated because of changes to Gmail when it could in fact be things such as the search preview i have had to script out of my search results or privacy concerns or hell even with them killing stuff like the custom Home page in November.

I suspect the main problem is the broadness Windows.
If someone buys a Mac, its a Mac. (I personally don't like Apple, OSX or IOS) they get a Mac.
If you buy a Windows PC what you get can depend and people blame Microsoft.

If someone buys a £300 Packard Bell notebook and its awful, who do the they blame? Microsoft, because Windows is so slow (on their nasty, bloatware funded machine)

It's unfair, if you want to compare a MacBook Pro or Air with a Windows equivalent, you want to be looking at the £900 ThinkPad series end of the market.

Microsoft is making so much money for charging people to use WLM XBL-edition, they don't care about people hating surface, win8 and RT. Honestly win8 isn't bad, its different. Im not saying if its a good or bad different- its just a direction that don't seem prosperous.

Ezekiel Carsella said,
i got a free Outlook t-shirt so i am pretty happy

You'd be happy with North Korea if they were giving out t-shirts too?

Calling your Phone platform 'Windows' Phone probably didn't help much either.

You say that to the average person in the street and i bet they immediately think Blue Screens, Taskbars, and that behind those pretty Live Tiles the Desktop is running.

They should have given it a name that had nothing to do with Windows.

Walrush said,
Calling your Phone platform 'Windows' Phone probably didn't help much either.

You say that to the average person in the street and i bet they immediately think Blue Screens, Taskbars, and that behind those pretty Live Tiles the Desktop is running.

They should have given it a name that had nothing to do with Windows.

Yeah, like door or wall or something.

In 2 or 3 years, we will look back at the Start Screen, with its flashy colors from the 90s, we will laugh and we will say “What the fu_k were they thinking?”

In 5 years, Neowin will write an article named “The biggest flops in Microsoft's history”, and the Start Screen will probably be on that list.

Mark my words

Nope.

Instead the Modern UI will flourish on touch devices, the Surface lineup will expand and continue to sell well (compared to devices like Nexus line), etc.

From a perspective of it being used on desktops? Possibly, but that's a different story.

The Microsoft envy is hilarious. The amount of jealousy built up inside made Andy Weird snap and go on an embarrassing fanboy rant. I don't see who made you the authority in speaking on behalf of consumers,but of course,you Apple/Linux guys have always, for years spouting the same garbage. What next? Are you going to write an article and try to convince us that the earth is flat? That the sky is green? Because just because you try to make people believe some stupid theory doesn't make it a fact. If you want facts then look some up.

Windows 8 is so hated that more people have it running than all android and ios tablets combined,even though its been on the market a fraction of the time the other 2 have been,and the average price of ios and android tablets is a fraction of the cost of a windows 8 device.

http://gs.statcounter.com/#os-ww-weekly-201313-201317

Windows 8 4.92%
Ipad 3.75%
Android 1.07%

2 more months,and Windows 8 will pass the installed base of all of MacOS, you know, the base Apple has been building for decades and decades.

But of course, lets all listen to Andy Weir. He is a world renowned Consumer Buying Habits Analyst, and that's why he's writing articles for some random blog on the internet.

Nice manipulation of stats there, but only a very small fraction of those are running it on a Tablet. iPad and Android are still outselling Windows 8 tablets by a wide margin.

Javik said,
Nice manipulation of stats there, but only a very small fraction of those are running it on a Tablet. iPad and Android are still outselling Windows 8 tablets by a wide margin.

He wasn't comparing Windows 8 tablet sales to iPad/Android sales; he was comparing Windows 8 market share to iPad/Android market share. The point is, if Windows 8 is hated so much, why is it being used by more people than iPad and Android combined? If Windows 8 is selling so poorly, why has its market share eclipsed both in a matter of months?

iPad has had over 2 years to gain 3.75% market share. Windows 8 beat it in 6 months. OSX has had 10+ years to reach 7.71% market share. Windows 8 will beat that in just a couple more months. All this bluster about how much people hate Windows 8 is directly contradicted by the 10s of millions (perhaps close to 100 million now) of people who use Windows 8 every day, and the fact that this number has been growing at a steady constant rate since its release. That is better than Android, iOS or any other OS can claim at this point.

Javik said,
Nice manipulation of stats there, but only a very small fraction of those are running it on a Tablet. iPad and Android are still outselling Windows 8 tablets by a wide margin.

but wait, i thought it was the post PC era? i thought windows 8 is a tablet OS and not for desktops? I thought it only works for touchscreens? I thought ipads and android tablets were taking over computing and people are dumping windows? No? So many contradictions its comical. The facts show that Windows 8 has sold a **** ton,and is accelerating at a pace those tablets will never match.

Javik said,
Nice manipulation of stats there, but only a very small fraction of those are running it on a Tablet. iPad and Android are still outselling Windows 8 tablets by a wide margin.

Think you'll find it's just you not understanding what the actual statistic is.
you dun goofed.

<insert picard-facepalm.jpg>

I guess if you don't like what he said you should post a comment attacking him and discrediting him and making ridiculous analogies.. o wait you did lol

MeowPurr said,
Funny how trolls disappear when facing reality. Same thing happened when Microsoft released their Q3 2013 financials.

I'd make sure my numbers looked good on paper too lol
I guess that reports means the 65% of people that voted on the bring the start menu back poll were all just an illusion and none of those people actually exist ?
In other words what Microsoft claims to have sold has virtually no value to me unless i was a stock holder other than that i will take it with a grain of salt..

vcfan said,

Windows 8 4.92%

How truly embarrassing this must be for microsoft and their obvious fanboys, only a messily 4.92% after 6 months.
Windows 8 still hasn't even reached vista yet in terms of adoption rates.

If I were Ballmer I would fire myself immediately.

Order_66 said,

How truly embarrassing this must be for microsoft and their obvious fanboys, only a messily 4.92% after 6 months.
Windows 8 still hasn't even reached vista yet in terms of adoption rates.

If I were Ballmer I would fire myself immediately.

What's your view on the OSX part of the graph?

Order_66 said,

How truly embarrassing this must be for microsoft and their obvious fanboys, only a messily 4.92% after 6 months.
Windows 8 still hasn't even reached vista yet in terms of adoption rates.

If I were Ballmer I would fire myself immediately.

That makes 130.000.000 sales for Windows 8, a small 10.000.000 sales less then Windows 7, after 5 months.

But ofcourse, let's only look at the statics, and don't think about the fact that the population that's on the internet has grown. Beside, we need to make it as bad for Windows 8 as possible... /s

Studio384 said,
That makes 130.000.000 sales for Windows 8, a small 10.000.000 sales less then Windows 7, after 5 months.

Are you saying that the windows 7 adoption rate was only slightly higher than 8?

It's interesting, really.

I think the media tried to kill Windows 8 before it even was placed into consumer's hands. If you look on gdgt.com for Windows 8, 200 reviewers have given it a 7.8 rating. For comparison's sakes, nearly 700 reviewers gave Windows 7 an 8.3.

I think it's one of those situations where the media is painting a worse picture than what really is in practice.

However, the app situation is something that is being blown out of proportion. Developers took a wait and see approach, and nearly 4% of the PC market after only 6 months is something that can't be ignored any longer. And companies are starting to realize that: Twitter, MLB.TV, ESPN, etc.

For a revolutionary new OS (for Microsoft), it's definitely a polarizing OS. Understandably so. But judging the success of a product after 6 months is a bit dishonest.

I think we can better judge a product based after a calendar year. Let's see the marketshare then, a combined grouping of PC sales that actually INCLUDE tablets and hybrids...let's see how a slew of updates (Blue) improve the image of Windows 8 for consumers.

I don't miss the Start Menu at all. I think just adding the Start Button (which will launch the Start Screen) will help appease people that just want some sort of familiarity. Microsoft is smart not to give the Start Menu back.

Boot to desktop seems to be a nice option. Have it boot to the Modern UI to start, and give the ability in settings to boot to desktop.

They're listening to consumers in much the same they did with Vista.

I don't think consumers don't like Microsoft. I think consumers very much like *certain* Microsoft products: Xbox, Azure, Visual Studio, Windows 7, Office and even Windows Phone. As for Windows 8 (and even Windows as a name)? Coin flip.

I think the large majority of users aren't vocal and look at Windows as a utility. The media has a tendency to overblow things.

I think the media tried to kill Windows 8 before it even was placed into consumer's hands.

you think ?

well the writing was on the wall because of beta versions etc
we were using it far before the public got to see it in machines at stores so yeah that makes sense to me..

Wow, didn't we see similar bantering back when Vista came out?

Look, this is no different when the Vista/Me/95 days. A OS that defies standardization comes out and the world is on fire. Couple that with an age when tablets and mobile devices are bigger than they have ever been and yes, there's some backlash and frustrations. It's no wonder why Windows is thought to be suffering.

Personally, I don't mind Windows 8. I run it on a laptop and a desktop at home. Once you get used to it, it works fine. I turned in my work iPhone 4S to get a Windows Phone and I couldn't be happier.

As others had previously said, this is nothing more that the media making a big story out of nothing and popularizing devices that have caught on to consumers due to pretty good marketing.

Am I a fanboy? Yeah. But do I give other things a chance? Sure. I started my days on a Apple II years ago, moving to Windows and recently have started learning Linux just to see what it can do and assist with backing up the Linux admins at work (I'm a Windows Server admin). I even have an old G4 at home that I have pulled out and reinstalling OS X on.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to choice and educating what works for you. I rarely buy in to media reviews of things; I try them out on my own and read what others have to say. That being said, it is a sore point to me to witness how the media puts a negative spin on everything MS and furthermore exaggerates things they do in a negative light. Maybe MS isn't for everyone but not trying out different things on your own just shows how limited a person can be with technology. Coupled with having some news outlet tell you what you should do is just plain asinine.

Edited by briangw, Apr 23 2013, 6:25pm :

briangw said,
....

I am also in fanboy camp.
I get no respect for my opinions from my collegues.
I get respect from those who lack the same technical savvy I do, as they appreciate that MS products are getting easier to use with every release.
As a developer, the strategy is coming together. Soon I won't need to remember 170 different frameworks just to do my daily job.
The Windows Runtime is the best thing to happen to windows since the desktop. Each have their place and time, and time is running out on the legacy outmoded ways of working.

no bs.
history traditionally is contorted and twisted to suit peoples agenda's
we all have a tendency of remembering things as we want to.

I had no idea topics like this were allowed on the site. Anything negative towards Microsoft gets you banned.

But as the topic says , Microsoft needs to hire some young guns with a direction in GUI to make things look like they belong together . All Microsoft products look like garbage these days . Heck gnome 3 looks thousands times better then windows 7-8 . Just my op

I must be an exception then...I installed Win 8 on my PC and like it just fine. Hoping to change my phone in a few months and it will be a WP8 device.

Some people like black coffee, plain toast and free TV...others like me enjoy ****ing away money for moderately better "experiences".

You would be the exception if you decided to NOT run around screaming at people they are dumb losers that need to deal with it (change) and that everyone who doesn't think and do like me is a whiny complainer. then yeah you would be the exception.

spoetnik said,
You would be the exception if you decided to NOT run around screaming at people they are dumb losers that need to deal with it (change) and that everyone who doesn't think and do like me is a whiny complainer. then yeah you would be the exception.

wut?

Funny how you mention XBox as being one of MS few bright spots and yet I found myself in a Gamespot the other day and everyone is seemingly up and arms about the rumors attached to the upcoming 720/Durango in regards to the possible always on internet connection, always on monitoring Kinect camera, no backwards compatibility (although I understand the PS4 suffers here as well), etc, etc, etc. Seemed like many of them were preparing themselves for going PS4 this console war cycle.

Condere said,
Funny how you mention XBox as being one of MS few bright spots and yet I found myself in a Gamespot the other day and everyone is seemingly up and arms about the rumors attached to the upcoming 720/Durango in regards to the possible always on internet connection, always on monitoring Kinect camera, no backwards compatibility (although I understand the PS4 suffers here as well), etc, etc, etc. Seemed like many of them were preparing themselves for going PS4 this console war cycle.

Up in arms over rumors. Really. Seriously? Much like the SONY crowd up in arms over rumors of used games... which never materialized in the end. This whole rumor mongering as fact is BS and people need to stop giving it attention. Until the facts are on the table, ignore it and don't use it as an argument.

As far as Windows 8 goes... it's YOUR choice to use it or not. It's not going to go anywhere so you might as well accept that fact. The only thing Microsoft can do moving forward is improve upon it based on end user feedback.

I personally, have been using the OS all through all the betas and consumer previews and have not had one complaint about the Start Menu change. Yes, It was a little weird at first but when you realize it's just a cosmetic change, it's no big deal.

The one thing I want fixed is when I'm in desktop mode and I want to send an email attachment via Send To > Mail Recipient...actually open up the Modern UI Mail app. Of course, the work around is to send the attachment from the Mail app.

I'll admit, Windows 8 isn't without its quirks and faults but it is HARDLY a failure. The integration between Windows devices and hardware works very well. I use a Windows 8 Desktop, Windows 7.8 phone, Android Tablet, and Windows RT Tablet. RDP works great from the Android Tablet, file sharing works, and streaming media works from my desktop. Skydrive across all my devices (including XBOX 360) simply works.

Apps are becoming increasingly better on Windows 8 and RT with many iOS and Android apps coming or suitable alternatives so that argument is becoming less and less valid.

Just watch, May 21 will mark the unveiling of the new XBOX and everyone will a) find something to hate and b) find something to love.

In the end, it's your decision to use Microsoft products or not. Hating on it isn't going to change a damn thing.

Where is Dot Matrix at now? I guess all my "FAIL" posts weren't so inaccurate.

Microsoft == FAIL!

They need to hire Sinofsky back and do a 180 while they still can.


runningnak3d said,
Where is Dot Matrix at now? I guess all my "FAIL" posts weren't so inaccurate.

Microsoft == FAIL!

They need to hire Sinofsky back and do a 180 while they still can.

I'm not so sure Sinofsky isn't Dot Matrix

You think Microsoft, and I assume Win8, is a fail. So to fix the "problems" (because growing your revenue by 18% with a "failed" product is a problem) you should hire back the guy who created the product you claim is a failure to do more work on it.

Yep, that makes perfect sense.

SoylentG said,
You think Microsoft, and I assume Win8, is a fail. So to fix the "problems" (because growing your revenue by 18% with a "failed" product is a problem) you should hire back the guy who created the product you claim is a failure to do more work on it.

Yep, that makes perfect sense.

Did you read this editorial? Every single product that Microsoft has for sale is a complete and utter failure. So, that would make Microsoft as a whole, a failure.

As for Sinofsky.... Very little has been said about his departure from Microsoft, so I am making some assumptions here. However, they do fit really well.

1 - He left / was fired before Win8 was released
2 - He did an amazing job of taking the failure that was Vista and turning it around with Win7.
3 - Considering he did such a great job of turning the failure around, do you REALLY think he would want to make such a drastic change?
4 - The more obvious conclusion to his "being let go" is that he didn't want to release Win8, and upper management wouldn't listen.

Think about it, it just makes sense....

No, I didn't read the article, it was too long and I know how it works - one guy (the author) doesn't like Metro so therefore all of Microsoft products are failures, even though they keep growing and selling more.

But Sinofsky, while responsible for Win7, was also responsible for Win8. So if every product Microsoft has for sale is a failure, Win8 is a "failure" because of Sinofsky. So you want him back to fix a product he broke? Win7 was well planned out by the time he got there, and Win8 was completely under him. So if you think it is such a failure - because having your biggest quarter ever makes you a failure - you want him to be back to cause more that you don't like? Isn't that like trying to fix a crack addiction by smoking more crack?

Pathetic MS created something so horrible that it failed to take off. Windows 8 is a disaster OS bloated with a senseless touchscreen interface with bold colors forced on everybody. What the hell was Microsoft thinking? I guess they did not learn anything from Vista. Ya sure, trying to step in the tablet ecosystem with so much compromise for the PC user. Even the addition of a start 'button' won't save them now.

yowanvista said,
.....

Pathetic MS for trying something bold and different which will change the face of computing forever? laughable.

The Windows Runtime that powers the "senseless touchscreen interface" is a great abstraction from concepts of old that added bloat to the OS. COM, COM+, WIN32, .NET etc... are all wrapped up inside a nice little runtime which will eventually replace those technologies, lowering the barrier to entry for software developers on Windows.

I'll tell you what they were thinking.... they were probably looking at the 4.4TB of documentation on legacy technologies saying we need to make computing easier for the consumer and the development community who use our technologies.

I for one think they are going down the right track. A little too bold for some, but hardly pathetic.

Pathetic for trying or Pathetic for FORCING things on us we said we didn't want during the beta's etc ?
Change forever ? Until MS flip flops and changes things again and i wonder what you will say when inevitably they change again and your left holding the bag.. i bet i will witness a so called Hater born

Runtime ? ok i 'll bite. So where may i ask are you getting this info from ?
And do you seriously think traditional desktops apps are going to be leaving and fully replaced by modern equivalents ? AND..
Leaving fast enough that they can delete the old menu NOW ?

And thanks for telling me what Microsoft was thinking i appreciate that lol
4.4 terabytes of what ? lol For the home user that mom see's or for the developers at Microsoft because if its for them then too bad i don't want to hear them crying about that because it was their choice to do that not mine..
Just because they make bloated documentation doesn't give them excuses for changing things. And my decade+ of MSDN library iso's may argue with you about the size lol

I for one think you are trying to make excuses for problems Microsoft brought on to themselves and that is pathetic.

Jeez.

Thanks to Windows 8 and the Surface, Microsoft's consumer perception scores set new records
http://thenextweb.com/microsof...ion-scores-set-new-records/
"And, finally, Microsoft has risen from a 17 to a 25 since the middle of October. As with Windows 8, among tablet owners it is doing all the better with a score of 33."

Microsoft Cool? Consumer Sentiment Rising After Surface, Windows 8 Campaigns, Per YouGov
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...ndows-8-bing_n_2094449.html

Consumers are actually giving Windows 8 decent reviews so far
http://bgr.com/2012/11/05/micr...-consumer-reviews-positive/
"nearly 1 in 4 reviewers made a special point to single out Windows 8 for praise while just 14% of reviewers singled out Windows 8 for criticism... The trick seems to be that many users were prepared for Windows 8 to be a much different experience than previous versions of Windows, as one user said that the new OS was 'easier to learn than expected' while another said that it was a good experience despite having 'a bit of a learning curve.'"

Apple pops, Wall St firms drop in brand study
http://www.reuters.com/article...ation-idUSTRE81C0VL20120213
"Apple, co-founded by Steve Jobs in 1976, vaulted to No. 1 in Harris Interactive's (HRS.N) annual public opinion poll on corporate brands. ... Walt Disney Co (DIS.N), Johnson & Johnson (JNJ.N), Whole Foods Market (WFM.O), Microsoft Corp (MSFT.O) and United Parcel Service Inc (UPS.N) fill out the 2012 top 10."

Not even all of the tech press. Sites like Engadget, Gizmodo, and Ars Technica have had a lot of positive things to say about Windows 8 and Surface, even as some reviewers have expressed reservations. Also, a lot of reviews from Mac users and visual designers are pretty positive; from a look-and-feel perspective, they think the Surface and W8 is a win.

Its obviously not a question that Apple has more of a reputation of being "cool" and they continue to have the advantage on that -- you can see evidence of in that brand study -- but I thought the whole editorial was a bit un-nuanced. Placing 9 in a list of most admired brands is evidence of that. Being in 9th place out of all companies out there on the market isn't bad at all. The article title would be more accurate as "Sorry Microsoft, but consumers like 8 companies better than you."

Sales of desktops and laptops are down in general, so isn't a good way to test people's reception is to Windows 8. Tablet sales might be, but everybody should know Microsoft faces an uphill battle against the iPad, which is already established as the tablet king and has plenty of available apps. That iPads sell more than Surface tablets shouldn't be surprising. The author here admits as much, but for some reason chooses to still use that as evidence against Microsoft's efforts. If you know its not important, why even mention it?

Obviously, too, many consumers are confused about whether to buy a regular Surface or an RT, and that might lead to some reticence and further drag down Surface numbers, but says nothing about general public reaction to Windows 8 and Metro. It simply means they want more clarity before buying. Those consumer perception scores I linked to, however, do say something about public reaction.

Notice the "easier to learn than I expected" comments. You have a lot of techies underestimating how smart casual users are and advising them how hard it would be for them as dumb idiots to switch to something new.

I recently remembered the original presentation of the Start Screen to some All Things D associate back in 2011. For being a bunch of Apple suckups, they gushed at first sight of the new interface. The only time they became skeptical/disappointed was when Office was shown, kicking the user out to desktop mode.

This is key: they were *disappointed* that the desktop existed at all. Since RTM, the blogosphere has pretended that all of the rage is at the loss of the desktop. It's interesting to remember that, in the beginning, the rage was that the desktop wasn't completely removed to begin with.

Joshie said,
I recently remembered the original presentation of the Start Screen to some All Things D associate back in 2011. For being a bunch of Apple suckups, they gushed at first sight of the new interface. The only time they became skeptical/disappointed was when Office was shown, kicking the user out to desktop mode.

This is key: they were *disappointed* that the desktop existed at all. Since RTM, the blogosphere has pretended that all of the rage is at the loss of the desktop. It's interesting to remember that, in the beginning, the rage was that the desktop wasn't completely removed to begin with.


I remember that! Both Mossberg and Swisher were really impressed with Windows 8.

I love the new Microsoft, and many people do too. Besides, they know what they are doing, unlike any of the random netizens doing their stupid remarks.
It's like suddenly everyone is an expert in business management, finance, product development, marketing or engineering. Sorry, but no. Microsoft has very talented people on board and time has proven that they are relentless and many of their products eventually became a success.

This post is so inaccurate it's unbelievable. Customers drive business no matter how many smart people Microsoft employs. They Fuc$$$$ up big time on this one, and their talented work force with feel the wrath of the majority Windows users who think Windows 8 is terrible.

JHBrown said,
This post is so inaccurate it's unbelievable. Customers drive business no matter how many smart people Microsoft employs. They Fuc$$$$ up big time on this one, and their talented work force with feel the wrath of the majority Windows users who think Windows 8 is terrible.

How is it inaccurate? I'll give you examples of many Microsoft products that failed at their launch, yet they became a success later on: Internet Explorer, Office, Windows, IIS, Azure, Xbox, DirectX, SQL Server & many others.

Yes, causing a massive decline in PC sales, ignoring your customers, and putting out the most unpopular version of Windows since ME are such noteworthy achievements. Really good companies listen to their customers they don't ignore them.

Javik said,
Yes, causing a massive decline in PC sales

Right, Windows 8 is causing a massive decline in PC sales that started several quarters before it was even released, and affects Apple's desktop/laptop products as well. Let's just ignore the vast array of externalities such as: people replacing their PC less due to the "good enough" state of desktops, a shift toward tablets and smartphones, and the general global economic climate. But sure, it's all because of Windows 8.

ignoring your customers

If Microsoft were ignoring their customers, they would have released yet another Windows iteration resembling Windows 7. It's indisputable that people are buing fewer PCs (before Windows 8 was even released), and people are shifting toward mobile devices and tablets for their computing needs. What you claim as "not listening to custmers" is simply "not listening to a vocal minority who refuses to accept change". Microsoft has a product for you: it's called Windows 7. Enjoy it for the next 5 years whle they support it (for who, who refuses to move from the OS) and recognize that the industry is moving on without you.

the most unpopular version of Windows since ME

Windows 8 is probably the most polarizing, but actual user ratings show it's not the most unpopular since ME: http://www.zdnet.com/just-how-...-hate-windows-8-7000013319/

A sample of 1400 review show 50% like it, 40% dislike it, and 10% are pretty indifferent. This does not compare as favorably to Windows 7, but is vastly better than Windows Vista.

ModernMech said,

A sample of 1400 review show 50% like it, 40% dislike it, and 10% are pretty indifferent. This does not compare as favorably to Windows 7, but is vastly better than Windows Vista.

I call BS ;-).

MeowPurr said,
I love the new Microsoft, and many people do too. Besides, they know what they are doing, unlike any of the random netizens doing their stupid remarks.
It's like suddenly everyone is an expert in business management, finance, product development, marketing or engineering. Sorry, but no. Microsoft has very talented people on board and time has proven that they are relentless and many of their products eventually became a success.

your funny..
Yeah they are so smart they didn't think to google search the word Metro. nuff said lol

I use Windows 8 on a daily basis and frankly love the operating system. My new laptop computer has a touch screen - I love the ability to fluidly interact with content on my screen. No one is saying the keyboard and mouse are going away - rather that a touch-based OS offers more flexibility and options. I love Windows 8 and applaud Microsoft for being the first to provide a full-blown interactive OS for use on multiple platforms.

[quote=ModernMech said,]
What you claim as "not listening to custmers" is simply "not listening to a vocal minority who refuses to accept change". Microsoft has a product for you: it's called Windows 7. Enjoy it for the next 5 years whle they support it (for who, who refuses to move from the OS) and recognize that the industry is moving on without you.
[quote]

vocal minority ?
Did you see the start menu Poll ? almost 60% want the start menu back what does that tell you ?

Telling people to stick with windows 7 is unreasonable unrealistic and just plain childish.

And by the way just because Microsoft decides to delete the start menu that does not constitute "the industry moving on"
Further more since you seem to be another deaf person around here let me remind you that the start menu is not the only complaint to be stated about windows 8.. the list is rather large

spoetnik said,
vocal minority ?
Did you see the start menu Poll ? almost 60% want the start menu back what does that tell you ?

It tells me 389 neowin members want the start menu back (by the way I like how 54% became "almost 60%". Who taught you how to round? ). Windows 8 is now on I would estimate 80 million machines, based on stat counter usage data. Trying to pretend this sample of n=721 users from neowin is representative of the population would give a statistician a heart attack. Neowin members are a minority of users, and neowin members who want the start menu back are an even smaller minority, and those complaining day in and day out are a vocal minority.


Telling people to stick with windows 7 is unreasonable unrealistic and just plain childish.

Right, as opposed to stomping your feet and demanding that Microsoft change something in their OS specifically to fit your personal needs. This is especially true considering a) they have a product that does exactly what you want and b) there are third party products that modify windows 8 to do exactly what you want. You have options yet you are not exercising them.

I'm not being childish; I'm being pragmatic.

And by the way just because Microsoft decides to delete the start menu that does not constitute "the industry moving on"

Did I suggest as much? The industry is moving on because all the players are leaving the desktop behind. Apple is focusing far more resources on iOS than OSX these days, so much so that the only advances OSX has seen lately are UI ports from iOS. Canonical introduced the more touch friendly Unity interface and now touch and phone based OSes. Gnome, with Gnome 3.0 removed the ability to put files and icons on the desktop, and made the OS more touch friendly. And finally Google's development efforts are clearly focused on the touch centric Android, especially in light of the lackluster Chrome OS. *That* is the industry leaving you behind. It seems like Microsoft has held off as long as they could.

Further more since you seem to be another deaf person around here let me remind you that the start menu is not the only complaint to be stated about windows 8.. the list is rather large

I may be deaf because the start menu is the most complained about thing on these forums, by far. It's clearly number one. At a distant number two we might have the search functionality (fixed in 8.1), and further down the list is minutia like the location of the power button.

spoetnik said,

Did you see the start menu Poll ? almost 60% want the start menu back what does that tell you ?

Telling people to stick with windows 7 is unreasonable unrealistic and just plain childish.

And by the way just because Microsoft decides to delete the start menu that does not constitute "the industry moving on"
Further more since you seem to be another deaf person around here let me remind you that the start menu is not the only complaint to be stated about windows 8.. the list is rather large

Those who think that whatever Microsoft does in a new version of their product as definitive gospel that this is the light and the way never cease to give me laughter. Probably the best example that comes to mind for me is with Microsoft Exchange, the popular email server, where Microsoft declared Public Folders obsolete and stupid so they removed the feature in Exchange 2007. Customer uproar lead to some public folder management tool in an Exchange 2007 Service Pack and limited support was restored in Exchange 2010. Low and behold in Exchange 2013 Public Folders were fully re-instituted just as they were in Exchange 2003 for the most part.

Microsoft will try lots of things and people need to accept that. Some of those attempts at doing something will be better and some will be worse. The decision of what path is right or wrong is decided by their customers not them. Microsoft added Public Folders back to Exchange not because they like them, but because customers weren't migrating from Exchange 2003 because they considered the feature vital to their organization. Microsoft telling them they have been using the product wrong means little.

The same will be true for Metro and the Start Menu and the litany of other reasons people aren't happy with Windows 8. Microsoft will give the customers what they want or they'll lose even more business.

Smart reply Apex and you make a hell of a lot of sense.
You reply seemed sincere and very objective and that is what i really strive for when i comment on sites but often get sucked into crap that makes me look like I'm on one side or the other.
I've seen you comment before and your a smart guy and i have to agree when you touched on the point about Microsoft trying new things.. I agree they have to and it makes sense. and also Microsoft flips flops on things big time but a ton of people forget quickly (i avoided rounding off any numbers there lol)
I hope in time people can look at windows 8 objectively instead of a knee jerk reaction and work together to be polarizing and inclusive. Finding a way to discredit people that have issues with it is not fair. Many people that use it and like it have issues with it so screaming at them well use windows 7 IS childish as i said earlier
What are people gonna do when Microsoft flip flops again ?
So far we are already hearing the button may come back lol (which was NEVER gonna happen)
And the excuses just keep rolling on from the usual suspects.. During the beta all we could hear is "Its only a beta.."
We see the same crap retorts posted over and over and the same people posting i don't get it why are people being whiny cry babies ?
And to them i see clean your ears out..

Public folders suck IMO. Maybe that's because I migrated them from a terrible Exchange 2003 environment to 2007. Oh, the torture. But you're point is, "on point."

MS wanted to kill Public Folders to drive users to SharePoint. That is a good call. The problem, not everyone can add a SharePoint Admin and Developer to their staff. You do need those to move to SharePoint.

LogicalApex said,

Those who think that whatever Microsoft does in a new version of their product as definitive gospel that this is the light and the way never cease to give me laughter. Probably the best example that comes to mind for me is with Microsoft Exchange, the popular email server, where Microsoft declared Public Folders obsolete and stupid so they removed the feature in Exchange 2007. Customer uproar lead to some public folder management tool in an Exchange 2007 Service Pack and limited support was restored in Exchange 2010. Low and behold in Exchange 2013 Public Folders were fully re-instituted just as they were in Exchange 2003 for the most part.

Microsoft will try lots of things and people need to accept that. Some of those attempts at doing something will be better and some will be worse. The decision of what path is right or wrong is decided by their customers not them. Microsoft added Public Folders back to Exchange not because they like them, but because customers weren't migrating from Exchange 2003 because they considered the feature vital to their organization. Microsoft telling them they have been using the product wrong means little.

The same will be true for Metro and the Start Menu and the litany of other reasons people aren't happy with Windows 8. Microsoft will give the customers what they want or they'll lose even more business.

Finally someone who is part of Neowin who is not afraid of telling the truth. Microsoft has gone way of the deep end with Windows 8. They tried to be "too" different and now look like idiots. They need to find a middle ground before its to late. There is still time to save this rubbish they created. I will then recommend Windows 8 to the thousands of people I interact with monthly.

Windows 8 is the best mobile OS I have ever used, bar none. On the desktop, I simply ignore metro, and I'm none the worse for it.

I don't get all this hate.

He's not telling the truth, he just telling what he sees so far, and although he does touch the truth in some points it's not like he's completely right.

Apple products aren't that good and they do have crashes. in fact, in just 2 times I used iPad, it freezed in one case. same thing happened with MacBooks. The point here is that the more people will get to know Apple products, the more frustration cases will happen, just like with MS products.

As for the lack of love for the MS products, usually when people try alternatives to MS Office, they realize how great of a product they used. Frustration with Office usually comes not from a bad user interface or lack of features, but from lack of interest it what people are doing with it. They don't want to get to know the product they're working with, maybe because they don't exactly like the work they're doing anyway. In some cases same applies to Windows. Additionally Windows is designed to work on such a variety of hardware combinations, that it really is a miracle that it usually works the same in all kinds of hardware configurations, just with different performance speed.

In my opinion, Microsoft is doing the best they can.

greenwizard88 said,
Windows 8 is the best mobile OS I have ever used, bar none. On the desktop, I simply ignore metro, and I'm none the worse for it.

I don't get all this hate.

Listen closely because people are explaining it endlessly..

greenwizard88 said,
Windows 8 is the best mobile OS I have ever used, bar none. On the desktop, I simply ignore metro, and I'm none the worse for it.

I don't get all this hate.

if you are not using metro then you are not using it the way microsoft want's you to use it.
what you are really doing is using the "Desktop App"

x.iso said,
He's not telling the truth, he just telling what he sees so far, and although he does touch the truth in some points it's not like he's completely right.

Apple products aren't that good and they do have crashes. in fact, in just 2 times I used iPad, it freezed in one case. same thing happened with MacBooks. The point here is that the more people will get to know Apple products, the more frustration cases will happen, just like with MS products.

As for the lack of love for the MS products, usually when people try alternatives to MS Office, they realize how great of a product they used. Frustration with Office usually comes not from a bad user interface or lack of features, but from lack of interest it what people are doing with it. They don't want to get to know the product they're working with, maybe because they don't exactly like the work they're doing anyway. In some cases same applies to Windows. Additionally Windows is designed to work on such a variety of hardware combinations, that it really is a miracle that it usually works the same in all kinds of hardware configurations, just with different performance speed.

In my opinion, Microsoft is doing the best they can.

Quite frankly I don't know any people who have a problem with Microsoft Office - the only complaint (if you can call it that) are when people realise that it is such a powerful suite and to really know how to use it well you have to take classes and/or read books on the subject. For most people I know they actually enjoy using Microsoft Office where as Microsoft Windows on the other hand is merely there as a means to an end - if there was an alternative out there that allowed them to run Microsoft Office they would go for that. You'd be surprised btw at the number of people who don't know that they can buy Microsoft Office for OS X.

Superboy said,

if you are not using metro then you are not using it the way microsoft want's you to use it.
what you are really doing is using the "Desktop App"

I lol'd, this is pure truth!

JHBrown said,
Finally someone who is part of Neowin who is not afraid of telling the truth. Microsoft has gone way of the deep end with Windows 8. They tried to be "too" different and now look like idiots. They need to find a middle ground before its to late. There is still time to save this rubbish they created. I will then recommend Windows 8 to the thousands of people I interact with monthly.

ya but it was a plea for sympathy though.. read the last paragraph.

x.iso said,
Frustration with Office usually comes not from a bad user interface or lack of features, but from lack of interest it what people are doing with it. They don't want to get to know the product they're working with, maybe because they don't exactly like the work they're doing anyway. In some cases same applies to Windows.

This is it, in a nutshell. People equate Windows with work. And, frankly, most white collar workers don't quite like so very much what they have to do. Windows is happening upon them from an invisible IT department or opaque higher echelon. Not surprisingly, people longing for a bit of say in the larger scheme of things makes them look for alternatives. For many, Windows Phone equates to work intruding into their private life also.

No matter how good or bad W8/WP8 really are, I believe it is the work life/private life psychology holding many consumers back from purchasing let alone liking these OSs.

EEK we're all going to die, they should just close up shop now and not even try.


I'm glad I'm at a point in my life where I buy the products I want to and use them and then go on with my life.

Microsoft needs to come out and promise not to reset their mobile platform again for x number of years. Only one of the people I know with Windows Phones 7.x plans / is prepared to consider another WP.

MeowPurr said,
What does "shouldnt of" mean?

I really do not care for spelling mistakes and such on sites like this. This is entertainment for me and it is not like I am sending something at work, or getting graded on it. But if you feel the need to correct me and make comments, I would like to see you do so with the thousands of other mistakes people make on here.

I am not getting graded...I am not getting paid...I do not care.

techbeck said,

I really do not care for spelling mistakes and such on sites like this. This is entertainment for me and it is not like I am sending something at work, or getting graded on it. But if you feel the need to correct me and make comments, I would like to see you do so with the thousands of other mistakes people make on here.

I am not getting graded...I am not getting paid...I do not care.


Sorry, I'm not a native English speaker. I really don't know what does it mean.

MeowPurr said,

Sorry, I'm not a native English speaker. I really don't know what does it mean.

Ok, wasn't sure if you were grammar Nazi or not.

I should have said "shouldn't have"

techbeck said,
Windows 8 also seems unfinished. Blue will address many of those issues, but shouldnt of had those to begin with.

Name me a Microsoft product that doesn't start unfinished. I've always followed the mantra "stay away from MS products until atleast the first SP is released." Never fails.

XP? SP2. Vista? Waited until 7. 8? I'll see how 8.1 fairs.

wernercd said,

Name me a Microsoft product that doesn't start unfinished. I've always followed the mantra "stay away from MS products until atleast the first SP is released." Never fails.

XP? SP2. Vista? Waited until 7. 8? I'll see how 8.1 fairs.

Compared to other MS products and all the things Blue is going to give/fix....Win8 holds no comparison towards other MS products.

techbeck said,

Compared to other MS products and all the things Blue is going to give/fix....Win8 holds no comparison towards other MS products.

XP

no comparison the worst excuse for an os when it was released and the dramatically fixed by service packs. far far more than anything else released by MS and far worse on release than 8 will ever be.

Mikeffer said,

XP

no comparison the worst excuse for an os when it was released and the dramatically fixed by service packs. far far more than anything else released by MS and far worse on release than 8 will ever be.

Big difference between service packs/bug fixes (every OS has and 95/98 had way more than XP) than features that should of been there in the first place.

MeowPurr said,

Sorry, I'm not a native English speaker. I really don't know what does it mean.

Lollllllllllllllllllll whether you speak English natively or not, that was the best response I've ever seen to someone making the grammar Nazi argument!!

so your response to this topic is windows 8 is unfinished ?

i guess it really is a what have you done for me lately world lol

my take on it is this all started long ago and why we all wanna home in on Windows 8 make no sense.. i find it doubtful that people in general hate on Windows simply because of Windows 8 and not history of the product in general which includes their phones etc.

Mikeffer said,

XP

no comparison the worst excuse for an os when it was released and the dramatically fixed by service packs. far far more than anything else released by MS and far worse on release than 8 will ever be.

WRONG

again.. your re-writing history to suit your needs..

when it was released i myself was apprehensive about using it and so were the people i talked to and the key reason for that was solely because of the new activation system that people found threatening whether they were pirates or not.
And after i had installed XP for friends, family, clients (home and business) i never heard a complaint from 1 person that i can recall so saying it was an overwhelming failure is just plain wrong and stupid. The only issue that would come up sometimes was driver issues but this is not a fair reflection because that applies to ALL operating systems AND i didn't see people complaining about that regardless. So after people were cooled down about the product activation things were pretty smooth.. the new version was a non event, compared to when Vista came out with the same issues pretty much that actually DID incite anger in people, myself included because of one thing.. i felt and others that they did not do enough to optimize the OS for performance reasons and once again driver issues are not fair to mention and at the time i never complained about that aside from maybe bringing up the fact that back then my games would run way quicker on XP then they would on Vista and guess what i said when Windows 7 came out ? the same thing as Vista lol ..after all Windows 7 is a re-branding of Vista.

So... bottom line i think your making up your own version of history to use that as a means to promote windows 8 but those of that have been around *should know better.

I'm sure you read posts and then make the rest up in your head.

Try reading through my post again and coming up with a proper answer that doesn't involve using your imagination, i'm sure it'll make for a much better reply.

MeowPurr said,

Sorry, I'm not a native English speaker. I really don't know what does it mean.

He is basically saying that Windows Blue will address those short comings BUT in hindsight those short coming should never have been there in the first place.

Mikeffer said,

XP

no comparison the worst excuse for an os when it was released and the dramatically fixed by service packs. far far more than anything else released by MS and far worse on release than 8 will ever be.

WOW, this is the most WRONG thing in some time. You must have started with XP? XP was GREAT, did you install more than 5 things in Win ME? If not, you have NO idea. With XP I could run 4 or more Quake 3 windows at the same time, with 70 other windows open, and it did not fail on the same machine as with Win ME or 98SE+++. XP and 2000 are the greatest thing MS has done at one point in time. We are using much of the same registry parts that XP had on day one in Win 8! Now this may be a problem at this point in time, but that's because the Win8 machine must support MORE not LESS. That in itself is much of the problem, and may be an additional reason for change. When the hardware itself must be far greater but only does the same things that can be done on cheaper hardware, there is a problem.

Glad you said service packs. A new Win 7 install for a year old desktop that can't be replaced for another two years if we are lucky is now taking me forever to fresh install because the MS rollup services are crap (when they do work), and the updates are LARGE! Guess who has not released a service pack for some time now, and may not?

Edited by thatmikeguy2, Apr 24 2013, 7:12pm :

thatmikeguy2 said,

WOW, this is the most WRONG thing in some time. You must have started with XP? XP was GREAT, did you install more than 5 things in Win ME? If not, you have NO idea.

Yeah my bad, for some reason i was starting at XP and ignoring everything before hand. I was kind of thinking "Modern OS" rather than starting at Windows 1.

Strange thing was, on fresh install i never had any problems with ME and had far more problems with a new XP install.

On a side note, emphasising what you are saying by adding capitals DOESN'T make your point any more valid. If you disagree with what i'm saying then opening up a discussion in a friendly mature way is welcome.

Bring the start button back, and I might fancy you again MS


PS
Let the anti-start button trolling begin!

Exosphere said,
Bring the start button back, and I might fancy you again MS


PS
Let the anti-start button trolling begin!

I want a Start Button with a Start Menu and a way to bypass the Metro Start Screen. I shouldn't have to install a third party application to get all that I want. Rather than complain, I just didn't buy it. Complaining does nothing but mess with them financially and they will eventually (if they are smart) listen.

Rob Waldhauser said,
YEAH! INNOVATION SUCKS!

Innovation doesn't always mean welcomed and/good. Windows 8 is a great example of innovation in this sense.

Exosphere said,
Bring the start button back, and I might fancy you again MS
PS
Let the anti-start button trolling begin!

I agree but i sure won't click like..
You are not helping our cause by egg'ing people on.

The bring on the.. comments are getting old and seriously pointless.

I won't call anyone a Troll ever but what you did here reflects badly on those of us that are trying to discuss things with some respect.

DarkNet said,

I want a Start Button with a Start Menu and a way to bypass the Metro Start Screen. I shouldn't have to install a third party application to get all that I want. Rather than complain, I just didn't buy it. Complaining does nothing but mess with them financially and they will eventually (if they are smart) listen.

Innovation doesn't always mean welcomed and/good. Windows 8 is a great example of innovation in this sense.

I don't see you complaining about iOS or Android needing apps for everything. Why complain about Metro Start Screen? Are you really THAT lazy that you cannot click on the Desktop tile?

Exosphere said,
Bring the start button back, and I might fancy you again MS


PS
Let the anti-start button trolling begin!


Another idiotic comment. Let me guess, you are an Apple fanboy with that logic.

There are many start menus you can add yourself to Windows 8 already.

I swear apple fanboys are just plain retarded.

Kunal Nanda said,

I don't see you complaining about iOS or Android needing apps for everything. Why complain about Metro Start Screen? Are you really THAT lazy that you cannot click on the Desktop tile?

I speak with my wallet. I'm sorry you don't like my reasons for spending my money on Windows 8. Are you that much of a fanboy that you have to try to convince me what you think is best for me? Unless you are willing to give me your money to upgrade, please be quiet. I don't spend my money on what I believe to be inferior products.

Rob Waldhauser said,
YEAH! INNOVATION SUCKS!

Does anyone actually believe that innovation = good? Or that new or different = good?
If so, I just made something new and different (unique) I can sell you!

LOL! If you come back in two hours the site might have split up into two new sites.. Start Menu is serious business and will most likely derail of the core story lol

Fus10n said,
LOL! If you come back in two hours the site might have split up into two new sites.. Start Menu is serious business and will most likely derail of the core story lol
LoL! The Start Menu could start World War 3.

Trailer park Boys reference ?
Or are we getting in before the getting in crowd ?

gotta love the here comes the Trolls Troll comments lol
Intellectual equivalent of posting "First"

And who is to blame for that ?
Would you like being called a loser and whiner and being told to shut up ?
The fanboys pick the fights and then complain about them after the fact, time after time.

xchaser said,
Microsoft, Make what you have now Cheaper and they will come, and love you back.

People are tired of the Windows brand for about 7 years now. I'm saying this for about 5 years.
You won't go to a bad restaurant that gives you chills if you have a little more to pay up for a much fancier one, or if you are paying the same.
People grew tired of the Windows brand, but not from Microsoft. Everything Windows just flops... See Xbox, for instance... keyboards, mice... no Windows branding and they thrive.
But maybe it's too late... They should have got rid of this thing Windows long ago.

Luis Mazza said,

People are tired of the Windows brand for about 7 years now. I'm saying this for about 5 years.
You won't go to a bad restaurant that gives you chills if you have a little more to pay up for a much fancier one, or if you are paying the same.
People grew tired of the Windows brand, but not from Microsoft. Everything Windows just flops... See Xbox, for instance... keyboards, mice... no Windows branding and they thrive.
But maybe it's too late... They should have got rid of this thing Windows long ago.


What the **** are you talking about? Most people I know couldn't live a single day without Windows. This is getting absolutely ridiculous.

MeowPurr said,

What the **** are you talking about? Most people I know couldn't live a single day without Windows. This is getting absolutely ridiculous.

You mad?
HIV patients also can't live one single day without antivirals. But that doesn't mean they like that or that they wouldn't dump it if they could.

Luis Mazza said,

People are tired of the Windows brand for about 7 years now. I'm saying this for about 5 years.
You won't go to a bad restaurant that gives you chills if you have a little more to pay up for a much fancier one, or if you are paying the same.
People grew tired of the Windows brand, but not from Microsoft. Everything Windows just flops... See Xbox, for instance... keyboards, mice... no Windows branding and they thrive.
But maybe it's too late... They should have got rid of this thing Windows long ago.


Windows 7 was not a flop and it's no older than 5 years old. You fail.

Luis Mazza said,

You mad?
HIV patients also can't live one single day without antivirals. But that doesn't mean they like that or that they wouldn't dump it if they could.


Windows compared to HIV. What a silly analogy.

xchaser said,
Microsoft, Make what you have now Cheaper and they will come, and love you back.

Making something that is crap cheaper isn't going to address the fact that the product is crap - there are a tonne of cheap Chinese made tablets running Android and yet people still opt for a Samsung Tab or an iPad.

Exactly, and MS only made these changes out of fear anyway. Fear of how fast things are changing. Fear of how cheap other devices are. Fear of how much money they will lose when people start changing over into the tablet market. Fear of how outdated their Rockefeller model is. Fear that other technologies will be easier and cheaper to build in a future they have less control over. Fear that if Apple ever got smart enough to make a cloud only business model that really worked locally and within itself, that MS would be made obsolete. I hope MS delays the next Xbox until a far greater Gpu chip can be added, AND that it would be an actual Winows 8 machine for the TV that can run "anything" made for the Start screen in Windows. The problem is, MS can't secure a turd! They have no idea at all, and it's their own software! Anyone else run Forefront?!? LoL! Why would they care? They are selling NEW software!

thatmikeguy2 said,
Exactly, and MS only made these changes out of fear anyway. Fear of how fast things are changing. Fear of how cheap other devices are. Fear of how much money they will lose when people start changing over into the tablet market. Fear of how outdated their Rockefeller model is. Fear that other technologies will be easier and cheaper to build in a future they have less control over. Fear that if Apple ever got smart enough to make a cloud only business model that really worked locally and within itself, that MS would be made obsolete. I hope MS delays the next Xbox until a far greater Gpu chip can be added, AND that it would be an actual Winows 8 machine for the TV that can run "anything" made for the Start screen in Windows. The problem is, MS can't secure a turd! They have no idea at all, and it's their own software! Anyone else run Forefront?!? LoL! Why would they care? They are selling NEW software!

so read the last paragraph of this story and read what you said..
so then, should i shower Microsoft in cash because i feel sorry for them ?
lol nope.
make something worth buying and i will or i'll go else where.

This is sad but true. If you gave people a choice at work if they could use a Mac or Windows PC, most will pick Mac. If you gave people at work the choice of iPhone or Windows Phone, most will pick iPhone.. They are loosing the business edge very slow.. They are still doing pretty damn well though.. In the consumer world.. they are not doing hot.. Even Dell doesn't like windows 8.. with their "roll and get a lucky 7" ad.

It will be interesting to see where Microsoft will be at in the next few years.. Apple seems to be falling behind too..

adrynalyne said,
Apple is becoming stale, and Microsoft is becoming too different. I think both companies need to find a middle ground.
Apple being stale isn't always a bad thing considering its changes that is driving people away from Microsoft.

adrynalyne said,
Apple is becoming stale, and Microsoft is becoming too different. I think both companies need to find a middle ground.
agree

ILikeTobacco said,
Apple being stale isn't always a bad thing considering its changes that is driving people away from Microsoft.

Yes but it is also that staleness that is slowly eroding their stocks.

adrynalyne said,
Apple is becoming stale, and Microsoft is becoming too different. I think both companies need to find a middle ground.

being different isn't necessarily a bad thing. look at windows 7. it was pleasantly different. that was why it succeeded. Windows 8 or Windows phone have different problems though. not only they have fundamentally different world from anything users have experienced or learned or loved before but In my opinion Microsoft also failed making it optimized with what people used to use. like in windows 8 it's not designed for using mouse which people have been using with windows.

S3P€hR said,

being different isn't necessarily a bad thing. look at windows 7.

The difference between XP and 7 isnt nearly as drastic as the changes from 7 to 8.

S3P€hR said,

being different isn't necessarily a bad thing. look at windows 7. it was pleasantly different. that was why it succeeded. Windows 8 or Windows phone have different problems though. not only they have fundamentally different world from anything users have experienced or learned or loved before but In my opinion Microsoft also failed making it optimized with what people used to use. like in windows 8 it's not designed for using mouse which people have been using with windows.

Being different isn't bad, no. However, being too different is (usually).

techbeck said,
The difference between XP and 7 isnt nearly as drastic as the changes from 7 to 8.
What is your POV on that statement? End user staring at the 2 desktops or as an IT professional? Also, I know some end users who would argue against that statement.

GUI wise, I can see where you are coming from.

IT perspective, going from XP to 7 is hell. Going from 7 to 8 will be a picnic compared to it.

S3P€hR said,

like in windows 8 it's not designed for using mouse which people have been using with windows.

I use Windows 8 with a mouse a good 10-12 hours a day and have yet to have a single issue. I am guessing you have never used Windows 8 and that you are talking out of pure ignorance.

zeke009 said,
What is your POV on that statement? End user staring at the 2 desktops or as an IT professional? Also, I know some end users who would argue against that statement.

GUI wise, I can see where you are coming from.

IT perspective, going from XP to 7 is hell. Going from 7 to 8 will be a picnic compared to it.

Going from XP to 7 is a walk in the park. Most change is XP to 7 is gui related and basically everything is in the same place. Not so with Win8.

JimmyJamesRoS said,
I am guessing you have never used Windows 8 and that you are talking out of pure ignorance.

Or he could have real issues. I dont like the Start Screen either and many others have complained that Win8 is designed more for touch, and it is, and leaves the desktop users behind. Having a difference of opinion is not ignorance.

techbeck said,
Going from XP to 7 is a walk in the park. Most change is XP to 7 is gui related and basically everything is in the same place. Not so with Win8.
Again, are you talking about appearances or technical details?

You and I have wildly different experiences and opinions on the matter. Just like this opinion article, I don't think it is something we'll agree on.

zeke009 said,
Again, are you talking about appearances or technical details?

You and I have wildly different experiences and opinions on the matter. Just like this opinion article, I don't think it is something we'll agree on.

Both...and we dont have to agree. If everyone agreed with one another, would things dull/boring. I respect your opinion and thanks for respecting mine

JimmyJamesRoS said,

I use Windows 8 with a mouse a good 10-12 hours a day and have yet to have a single issue. I am guessing you have never used Windows 8 and that you are talking out of pure ignorance.


Infact I am a windows 8 user. However, i use keyboard unless i am in desktop mode. I'll give you several example and you get my point. First of all closing a modern app. You have to drag all the way down from top. Is that optimized? Secondly, scrolling in start screen. Your mouse has vertical scroll wheel but usually you're dealing with horizontal scrolling. You call it optimized? It just doesn't make sense. In start menu you didn't have to roam all the way across the screen to click on an application. I think you are the ignorant one here. Don't get me wrong I like windows 8 but for touch screen devices

S3P€hR said,

You have to drag all the way down from top. Is that optimized?

Alt+F4 closes metro apps, same as any other app. You don't even have to move your hand from the keyboard.

Secondly, scrolling in start screen. Your mouse has vertical scroll wheel but usually you're dealing with horizontal scrolling. You call it optimized?

It's a smiple 1:1 mapping. people do it *every time* they use a mouse, where moving it toward and away from you moves the cursor up and down on the screen. I've seen novice users actually lift the mouse from the table in an effort to get it to move up on the screen, but they adapt incredibly quickly.

An up/down scroll wheel is designed to accomodate the human hand and how our fingers move. A side/side scrollwheel would not work well with our hands. The start screen scrolls side to side to accomodate monitors, which in turn accomodate the layout of human eyes. Luckily our brains have evolved to handle this simple spatial mapping quite easiy.

In start menu you didn't have to roam all the way across the screen to click on an application. I think you are the ignorant one here.

No, you were confined to a small bo in the corner of your giant monitor, forced to navigate precision menu hierarchies with no apparant way to sort or organize the menu to your liking. What you call "roaming across the screen" I call optimized target selection according to Fitts law, something the Start Menu violates profusely, and the start screen actually takes into account.

adrynalyne said,
Apple is becoming stale, and Microsoft is becoming too different. I think both companies need to find a middle ground.

It has nothing to do with being 'stale' or 'too edgy' - the problem with Microsoft is that they took a touch based interface and rammed it down the collective throats of end users. If they kept the touch based interface on tablets and the phone along with actually delivering a native metro Microsoft Office whilst delivering a tweaked Windows 8 desktop (without the metro stuff) you wouldn't have seen the backlash by tech enthusiasts. Metro works beautifully on phones and tablets but god knows what got into the mind of those at Microsoft when they dreamed up 'lets go full metro'.

As for Apple being stale - what a load of crap; people purchase things that they're comfortable and familiar with. Sorry but something you fail to realise is that people don't enjoy having to re-learn how to do things over and over again because some jack-off form Big Company Inc. got a bee up their backside and believed they needed to turn everything upside down. The problem Apple is facing is many of their products and services such as AppleTV require better infrastructure before they can take off - it is a chicken and egg scenario that is being addressed only just recently with the fibre connections being funded by governments or the likes of Google.

Fus10n said,
This is sad but true. If you gave people a choice at work if they could use a Mac or Windows PC, most will pick Mac.
They would 'pick Mac' because relentless marketing tells them it's cooler. After a day they would see that they're still doing spreadsheets.

Media has dumb consumers down: “I Phone” Duh! You can also get "All Programs (Apps)" by creating a Menu Bar directed to:

C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs

Get over it, all your legacy programs straight from the desktop! Also, you still can have as many "Windows" from legacy programs opened in desktop as you need...