The great Windows 8 Debate with Robert Scoble

Neowin had a chance to sit down with Robert Scoble to talk about Microsoft, Windows 8 and the new direction of the company. Robert, who is articulate with the movements of the industry has one vantage point, and I, presented Microsoft's side of the equation.

The conversation was highly enlightening for both parties as we each have a different vantage point for what is going on and how Microsoft will proceed with its platforms. Robert certainly had several strong key arguments about Apple and Microsoft being late and I refuted with Microsoft's direction and big vision about how Windows 8 is a long term play

We both walked away with a new sense of how the industry is evolving but understood that in 18 months, Microsoft will be in an entirely different position in the marketplace with Windows 8 and Windows Phone. 

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"I think it's very difficult, if not impossible, to revive a brand..."

Uh, 600+ million licenses sold, dumbass. Windows is not being revived. It's evolving.

I have to admit when I'm wrong. I installed Windows 8 today and used it for the most part of 10 hours. It was both sweet and incredibly unuser friendly. If I open an application and I revert to the desktop 90% of the time, why should I bother with the Metro UI! I love the Metro apps, don't get me wrong, but a lot of apps like anything remotely related to business, design, construction, just about all programming apps...etc need a lot more complexity that Metro UI can offer, so they will use the normal desktop UI. Metro by definition is about simplicity which these applications are not.

For Grandma and Grandpa, and the rest of the people that have trouble with things like copy and paste, Windows 8 will be a homerun. For anyone needing to anything more than checking email, their calendar, the weather, the news, then Windows 8 is a not worth the effort at best, and at worst a complete failure.

And don't get me started on multimedia, Windows 8 is simply a blatant attempt to get Windows users to sign up for Microsoft media services. I get the reasoning and actually hugely respect the business strategy but as a tech user, I just don't need the advertising for Zune music when all I want to do is play my own music on my own hard-drive in my own home...oh I forgot, I can do that, I just have to revert to the normal desktop UI that, you know, everyone and their grandmother is already used to!!!

Bottom line, Windows 8 is nothing more than Microsoft trying to use their PC marketshare to influence their dismal mobile market share. I do see the enormous possibilities with a completely unified OS experience across home, laptop/tablet, and phone but man, to do that Windows 9 better be Windows 95 x 10.

Right now Windows 8 at its face (the UI that just about all users will see right off the bat) is nothing but a glorified Phone OS with a ton of Microsoft desktop greatness in the background, a background that rears it head 90% of the time. Given this, at least for people that use Windows for more important things than seeing who won American Idol or reading the latest email from Aunt Bettie, Windows 8 is nothing more than a POS stepping stone to much much greater things that will come with Windows 9.

Edited by solarus, Jul 15 2012, 8:23am :

Interesting reply

i liked the part


Windows 8 is simply a blatant attempt to get Windows users to sign up for Microsoft media services.

I couldn't agree more !
There ALWAYS seems to be an underlying devious ulterior motive with MS.
Seems like a constant pressure from that company to try and coral the sheep
into a microsoft specific/exclusive pen. (Like the .net framework and silver light)
The last .net framwork app i made was whas before v2.0 came out and i ported
my app to v2.0 (was a pain the butt) and at that point i was getting a bit unimpressed.
I reported a lame bug with it and got a wall of fanboy attitude from cocky experts.
I was trying to create a piece of code that could write a null string to the registry
and it turned it that you can't it has to have some kind of value (anything)
When i said this the cocky jerk posted the usual dumb sample code and i laughed
and posted my own code.. and told 'em been there and done that ...duh buddy
Check things before running off with the 6 page wall of attitude (my comments were rude or anything either i was just asking for help/advice)
The moral of the story is that through my own experience the .net framework was limited in what it could do compared to c / c++.
And when you decide you wanna port to linux or something then what ?
It may seem like i went of course here but i think you can compare this
to the Metro Apps crap
MS would love nothing more than to get everyone on a another owned and controlled ms product service.. and I'm tired of that whole routine even if I am a really big Microsoft fan.

Microsoft Fanboy != Microsoft Fan

I am very disappointed with Robert Scoble. He is not based in reality. I am really hoping he was playing devil's advocate because he sounded like an Apple Douche. I don't mind Apple and I think they make some good products, but sometimes their fans can be insane and not based into reality and sometimes they can really turn into douches.

I am glad that Honeywell is making ios apps, great. It's not like they can't create other apps for other platforms and port them over. How many times did he say "Honeywell" anyway?

ios is doing great and many app developers are going to be making money on ios, however, they can make just as much money once the Windows 8 ecosystem is built as well. The douche forgets that you can run apps on Windows Phone 8, Windows 8 RT Tablets, and Windows 8 laptops and desktops, and also Xbox that is all connected using one interface to one app store.

Who is going to pass up something like that? Morons?

That ecosystem isn't even built yet and the moron thinks it can't work. Corporate is probably going to skip over to Windows 9, that is what happens every time. Most corporations didn't use Vista, they used windows XP and skipped to Windows 7, so they probably won't upgrade unless the same interface is used for all of the products, which makes sense.

Comparing OS/2 to Windows in 2013 is just redneck dumb. I had to pause the video when he said that, that is the most moronic thing that I have ever heard. Now windows is OS/2 and ios is the new Windows. The dude has become a mouth piece for Apple.

I am glad I wasn't there, I would have told him off and told him that what he says is meaningless because it's such a fanboy viewpoint that it does not matter and is not based in reality. I don't care that you like Apple, that is fine by me, but don't shove it down my throat and act like they are perfection and their crap doesn't stink ever.

Reality and Robert Scoble do not mix and he has no insight on the future of computing, he is just a mouthpiece for Apple. I agree computing is changing, no doubt about it, but Apple isn't going to be the only one putting out products that people buy.

It's all computing at the end of the day, Tablets are just specialized computing devices built for specific purposes that it works for. I can't use office on it, I can't do content production on it, it works for a lot of people to read books and surf. That is why the entire "Post PC world" is really non-intellectual to begin with. It's all just the same thing just with simpler apps and simpler interfaces with multi-touch, it's no different at the end of the day of specialized computer devices.

What the hell is up with the guy thats supposidly arguing in favor of Windows 8. He keeps letting the other guy interrupt him when hes trying to counter his claims.

What Scoble fails to see is that there are already millions of apps ready and waiting for Windows 8. The same apps that run on Windows 7 will like run on Windows 8 and there is nothing Apple's App Store can do to combat that.

I am a middle manager at a fortune 10 company. We obviously use Windows and Office very heavily. Being an enthusiast and a corporate user I have two observations. Also, I have been using the release preview for a little while now.


1: iOS is still a consumption device no matter how many are deployed in any organization. Our upper and Senior leadership utilize iOS to quickly communicate, read reports and navigate to corporate sites. Virtually they are able to see a 'Snapshot' of the business while not being tied to a PC. None of the work that goes into building the data that leadership consumes can be done within iOS or a custom application in iOS.

When working with thousands of lines of data to feed into reporting, the need to have 'TRUE' multi-tasking, build/edit SharePoint, create mass/rich communication, ect., a keyboard, mouse and windowed environment is a must. The interface is irrelevant in this argument, the one constant must be the ability to create on a grand scale, efficiently. None of which can be done within iOS, no matter the Screen size.

In my opinion, the people now using iPads will jump at the chance to have the ability to have the same 'Snapshot' experience on the go, while also still having the opportunity to sit down and truly dig into that data on the same device. I know in my role I would. The vast majority of the time I am in creation mode, but there are times while I am visiting the field and need to be in consumption mode, it is exciting to think about being able to do that on the same device.

Side note: I do not believe an organization as large as mine will make the mass transition to 8 at all. It will likely be Windows 9/10 before we make that move - I am still on XP . What we will see is the now iPad audience, upper senior leadership transition immediately. They live in a different world than us 'worker bees'.


2: After using the Release preview for a little while now, I despise the start menu even more than I did before. I could go on all day about what I like about 8, but I wont. The only thing I will say is that I find my navigation in the OS to be much more efficient, it seems to get out of the way of what I am actually using the computer for. As well, the interface seems very natural and easy to pick up, I am very pleased with my Windows 8 experience. I will be Purchasing a Surface RT at launch, then giving that to my wife when the Pro launches later.

We are still on XP too. Planning to move to Window 7 next year. Windows 8 will be skipped. Not because it's bad but simply because by the time we are ready to upgrade from 7 a new version of Windows will be out.

Why? Because as long as we - as users - put up with a broken paradigm, it won't get fixed (all in the name of tradition).

The Start menu is broken, and has, in fact, been broken for quite a while (possibly all the way back to Windows 2000 Professional) - and that's just for keyboard and mouse users. Otherwise, why in the world have we asked for, and gotten all those changes to compensate for it (jumplists, the Superbar, Taskbar pinning, TaskTray icon context menus, etc.)? Keeping it for the sake of tradition may be all well and good - but not if it's broken. And don't even THINK about using touch in combination with the Start menu.

I've run the Developer Preview, Consumer Preview, and Release Preview of Windows 8 (the last two mostly as the only operating system, and always as the default - even with other versions of Windows installed for niche reasons), and I run it on a PC that's a desktop (mATX motherboard in mid-tower ATX case, to be specific) and I use a keyboard and mouse (no touch). Do I miss the Start menu? Not even a little bit.

The Start menu is problematical if you have a lot of programs (and/or a lot of program groups) and that is just if you stick with the Classic Start menu that is the default pre-Vista - and for the precise reason that you defend it: it covers part of the desktop. You don't find that even the least distracting?

What the Start Screen does is give all those programs and groups their own space - completely separate from the desktop. That means that it can't distract from the desktop, as the two share no space. What's wrong with that?

Tiles - that means WinRT. You do realize you don't HAVE to use WinRT (or apps/games thereof), don't you? I have *one* WInRT app that I used reliably (AccuWeather.com - which is being updated, which is why it is currently not on the Store, so I'm using the Vista/7 desktop gadget instead, which still works). That's it. Everything else I run is Win32/Win64 - in fact, the SAME Win32/Win64 applications I used on 7. All the workarounds for launching those applications from places other the Start menu, Start Screen, or desktop are still there (especially those from Windows 7), so the Start Screen is rather easily avoidable. I work from the *desktop* - not the Start Screen; it's also why I haven't done any organizing to said screen (why organize a place that I spend next to no time in?). Basically, WinRT (as an API) only matters if you use applications that rely on the API - it's not a requirement.

And to those of you that say that I don't do much, because I'm no fan of the Start menu, you've got it bass-ackwards - I'm no fan of the Start menu because it's a broken paradigm for keyboard and mouse users. I run (and have installed) a lot of applications/games/etc. - in fact, I tend to install via the *kitchen-sink* method. If you have a Windows that includes the Start menu (even Windows 7) such install methods are asking for trouble - simply due to the impact on the Start menu. Because I am running Windows 8 (which has the Start Screen), I no longer care. I no longer care for two very critical reasons:

1. Zoom in/out - this feature is throughout Windows 8's program windows - IE 10 in particular makes rather effective use of it, in addition to the Start Screen and File Explorer. That means that in the Start Screen, you can zoom out and see *every* program and their groups all at once. You can even pan left and right through your programs and groups - the same paradigm used by the Store. IE10/RT, etc. Even better, it doesn't detract from the desktop, as it shares not a lick of space with it.

2. Universal Search - while commonly referred to as being accessible via the Charm Bar, an even faster way to access it is right on your keyboard - the Windows logo key by itself. Unlike the Charm Bar-based method (which is a file-based search) the Windows logo-based method defaults to searching the Start Screen by program name. The only way to search by program name prior to Windows 8 is via the Mark I Mod 0 eyeball - very time-consuming!

I get change being scary - as I've said before, this one is a biggie. However, sticking your head in the sand and ignoring the existing issues that even Windows 7 has does NOT make them go away.

PGHammer said,
Why? Because as long as we - as users - put up with a broken paradigm, it won't get fixed (all in the name of tradition).

The Start menu is broken, and has, in fact, been broken for quite a while (possibly all the way back to Windows 2000 Professional) - and that's just for keyboard and mouse users. Otherwise, why in the world have we asked for, and gotten all those changes to compensate for it (jumplists, the Superbar, Taskbar pinning, TaskTray icon context menus, etc.)? Keeping it for the sake of tradition may be all well and good - but not if it's broken. And don't even THINK about using touch in combination with the Start menu.

I've run the Developer Preview, Consumer Preview, and Release Preview of Windows 8 (the last two mostly as the only operating system, and always as the default - even with other versions of Windows installed for niche reasons), and I run it on a PC that's a desktop (mATX motherboard in mid-tower ATX case, to be specific) and I use a keyboard and mouse (no touch). Do I miss the Start menu? Not even a little bit.

The Start menu is problematical if you have a lot of programs (and/or a lot of program groups) and that is just if you stick with the Classic Start menu that is the default pre-Vista - and for the precise reason that you defend it: it covers part of the desktop. You don't find that even the least distracting?

What the Start Screen does is give all those programs and groups their own space - completely separate from the desktop. That means that it can't distract from the desktop, as the two share no space. What's wrong with that?

Tiles - that means WinRT. You do realize you don't HAVE to use WinRT (or apps/games thereof), don't you? I have *one* WInRT app that I used reliably (AccuWeather.com - which is being updated, which is why it is currently not on the Store, so I'm using the Vista/7 desktop gadget instead, which still works). That's it. Everything else I run is Win32/Win64 - in fact, the SAME Win32/Win64 applications I used on 7. All the workarounds for launching those applications from places other the Start menu, Start Screen, or desktop are still there (especially those from Windows 7), so the Start Screen is rather easily avoidable. I work from the *desktop* - not the Start Screen; it's also why I haven't done any organizing to said screen (why organize a place that I spend next to no time in?). Basically, WinRT (as an API) only matters if you use applications that rely on the API - it's not a requirement.

And to those of you that say that I don't do much, because I'm no fan of the Start menu, you've got it bass-ackwards - I'm no fan of the Start menu because it's a broken paradigm for keyboard and mouse users. I run (and have installed) a lot of applications/games/etc. - in fact, I tend to install via the *kitchen-sink* method. If you have a Windows that includes the Start menu (even Windows 7) such install methods are asking for trouble - simply due to the impact on the Start menu. Because I am running Windows 8 (which has the Start Screen), I no longer care. I no longer care for two very critical reasons:

1. Zoom in/out - this feature is throughout Windows 8's program windows - IE 10 in particular makes rather effective use of it, in addition to the Start Screen and File Explorer. That means that in the Start Screen, you can zoom out and see *every* program and their groups all at once. You can even pan left and right through your programs and groups - the same paradigm used by the Store. IE10/RT, etc. Even better, it doesn't detract from the desktop, as it shares not a lick of space with it.

2. Universal Search - while commonly referred to as being accessible via the Charm Bar, an even faster way to access it is right on your keyboard - the Windows logo key by itself. Unlike the Charm Bar-based method (which is a file-based search) the Windows logo-based method defaults to searching the Start Screen by program name. The only way to search by program name prior to Windows 8 is via the Mark I Mod 0 eyeball - very time-consuming!

I get change being scary - as I've said before, this one is a biggie. However, sticking your head in the sand and ignoring the existing issues that even Windows 7 has does NOT make them go away.

So basically because you don't know how to use it and don't like it.

Sasa_RI said,

So basically because you don't know how to use it and don't like it.

Please - the Start menu has not really changed since 9x - not at the core. I was a beta tester of Windows 95; therefore, I have a ton of time using the Start menu.

However, time spent customizing, organizing, and otherwise fiddling with the Start menu is time I am NOT spending being productive. I don't know about you, but I doubt that any business pays employees to spend time thumb-twiddling. It's even more critical when you ARE the business - a company of one. Maybe larger businesses can afford to have employees thumb-twiddling; however, small businesses don't.

I don't recall anyone saying the start menu was broken ever.

I'm working with a lot of programs. I pin the most used one on the taskbar. For the others a simple winkey + typing 2-3 letters + enter does the job

I use the desktop for things i know i wont need for more than a week or 2. You know like a real desktop. A reminder of things i need to clear.

The desktop paradigm is older than USA. It has always been good and will probably always be. Don't re-invent the wheel ...

I really don't see what is broken there. I tried Windows 8 for my job and did not see any advantage about Windows 8 UI. I'll get used to it. And it's no biggie. Doesn't make it better than a desktop with a start menu though. I would really like to have the options to stay in desktop mode and run RT apps encapsulated in a window.

Edited by LaP, Jul 14 2012, 11:48pm :

The only thing i would like them see debate is the following question,
Why make the start menu related changes and give the user no option
to shut off the metro tile stuff and turn back on the start menu ?

as far as I'm concerned that's about the only point I'm interested in
because aside from that I don't think there really is any debate

I am sorry but I have stuck with listening to this and Richard Scoble's main foundational point is flawed.

The point he mainly repeated was that Win8 is such a radical UI the enterprise would not move to it. However in the same interview he is stating how many companies are moving from Windows to IOS with custom apps. This is a radically new UI

Also I am sorry he does not give the other chap a chance to speak. His is banging on about a few large companies creating lots of new apps but doesn't accept the fact that in touch until later this year Apple have no competition.

This guy is not impartial.

Another example, he mentioned that companies didn't adopt BYOD as much as is being believed because of the new UI differences and the need to hire people to support multiple UI's.

Again he is flawed the main reason is interoperability and security (which he did mention). Again the main value he is glossing over is that companies know UI's change but re-writing their whole corporate application portfolio is completely prohibitive and no company is going to do that so they will end up with multiple interoperability challenges that far oustrips the costs of learning a new UI.

Brad, you were outnumbered dude but you need to know his main points (above) were invalid and in my opinion very biased (laughing does not hide that for me).

He ended up getting you to agree with all the bad stuff and kept you off any counter you had. Let me at him and he will get as much as he gives. I love his passion but the guy needs clarity of thought and he clearly doesn't have that.

I'd love a go with him. Also he can laugh as much as he likes but one thing is he will need to clearly articulate his preference up front and agree to not interrupt.

Well, Scoble is right about the Windows 8 facing a slow adoption to corporate desktops. Large corporate IT depts. will be reluctant to migrate due to the high cost of retraining users and lengthy help desk support calls.

Prowler said,
Well, Scoble is right about the Windows 8 facing a slow adoption to corporate desktops. Large corporate IT depts. will be reluctant to migrate due to the high cost of retraining users and lengthy help desk support calls.

Knowing how long it took for even Windows 7 to be adopted which everyone calls a rock solid product, there is absolutely no way Windows 8 was EVER going to be adopted in traditional enterprise desktops. Good thing is, it doesn't matter at all! Windows 7 will be around for a very long time, and as long as Windows 8/9/10 doesn't mess with the desktop environment breaking apps, companies can transition at their own speed.

However, the world is clearly going more mobile. Unless you need to do a lot of typing, 99% of what you need to do could probably be accomplished with a tablet. The question is what kind of table experience do you want or need? The Apple environment is so locked down that you cannot access data from a flash drive to open a document. You cannot print without a specific printer. You cannot have two apps open at once. The iPad has no concept of user accounts. And because of most of their money is made through consumer sales, they have no obligation to listen to business customers (I never expect to see a Windows XP-service extension from Apple ever).

But we'll see how it goes. If Microsoft truly gets ****ed at how partners are doing, we are no doubt going to see them go fully integrated in order to make the best product possible.

Prowler said,
Well, Scoble is right about the Windows 8 facing a slow adoption to corporate desktops. Large corporate IT depts. will be reluctant to migrate due to the high cost of retraining users and lengthy help desk support calls.

How is this different from Corporate IT Departments FINALLY moving from XP to Windows 7? Thats exactly whats happening where I work now and because we're in a down economy many Federal, State and Local jurisdictions will be even slower to upgrade so I doubt Windows 8 will feel any impact. However, Microsoft will still get the cash when these organizations upgrade to Windows 7.

NPGMBR said,

How is this different from Corporate IT Departments FINALLY moving from XP to Windows 7? Thats exactly whats happening where I work now and because we're in a down economy many Federal, State and Local jurisdictions will be even slower to upgrade so I doubt Windows 8 will feel any impact. However, Microsoft will still get the cash when these organizations upgrade to Windows 7.

Its different because the UI from XP to Windows 7 is basically the same, but with Windows 8, its in your face Metro, end users do not like change, (for better or worse), threre will be cost associated with this change, and companies will be reluctant to do it, the proof is look how many are still using XP.

Prowler said,

Its different because the UI from XP to Windows 7 is basically the same, but with Windows 8, its in your face Metro, end users do not like change, (for better or worse), threre will be cost associated with this change, and companies will be reluctant to do it, the proof is look how many are still using XP.

I've been using Win8 for about two weeks now and the s-called "in your face Metro" is almost non-existent because as my desktop apps begin to load the interface automatically switches to the Windows 7 UI. And has Microsoft has a history of allowing SysAdmins control over how users interact with their PCs I don't see how they won't be allowed to choose to let users only see the Classic UI.

I'm not sure how businesses end up adapting the Apple hardware cycle with open arms. The original iPad released in 2010 is already outdated and no longer being supported (no iOS 6 support). I don't see how any business can stomach that unless they are willing to replace their hardware every 3 years. What CFO would allow such a wasteful use of money?

dagamer34 said,
I'm not sure how businesses end up adapting the Apple hardware cycle with open arms. The original iPad released in 2010 is already outdated and no longer being supported (no iOS 6 support). I don't see how any business can stomach that unless they are willing to replace their hardware every 3 years. What CFO would allow such a wasteful use of money?

This, right here. They'll be paying more money than they are right now using Microsoft products to keep refreshing every two years.

Dot Matrix said,

This, right here. They'll be paying more money than they are right now using Microsoft products to keep refreshing every two years.

Whoops, that should say Microsoft + In house + OSS products.

there is no debate as windows 8 will end up being a huge failure as windows phone is. i do agree windows 7 will become the next xp.

smooth3006 said,
there is no debate as windows 8 will end up being a huge failure as windows phone is. i do agree windows 7 will become the next xp.

I don't think so just yet. I think their no doubt that windows 8 is not going to be the success that WIndows 7 was. But I don't think Windows 8 is going to be huge failure either. It transition operating system just like vista but much more important then people realize. If it gets the numbers the same number as vista I would actually consider that a success. Windows phone 7 was product that they launched as a stop gap until windows phone 8 launched. All it has to do is get about 5-10% percent market share within 6-8 months I would consider that a success. Their is good chance they could do it. It looks like the Windows team put their energy into Windows Phone 8 not Windows 8. Basically all they have to do get market share form RIM. Its pretty clear their are very few developers making apps for RIM.

smooth3006 said,
there is no debate as windows 8 will end up being a huge failure as windows phone is. i do agree windows 7 will become the next xp.

Really? I think Windows 8 will do just fine. Especially once Surface goes on sale.

puma1 said,
Scoble is an idiot who has no place talking about anything discussed in this vid.

Yeah I noticed the stumbling "uh uh what" when the Wifi crash at the iPad event was mentioned too...An idiot and a TOOL!!

Brad you really could have used some help there, 5 against 1?

I am worried about the developers especially when I read some of Charlie Kindels tweets on the subject. MS better have something up there sleeves in this department, they can't really afford no apps out of the gate ala WinPho7. Interesting that Scoble doesn't mention the real selling point for developers at all, which is write once and port to all Win 8 devices rather easily. Does he really know 100 developers that all have no interest in that?

I think Microsoft's foothold in the enterprise, and the influence of being able to run Office on a tablet is being severely underestimated by Scoble. And maybe in a year or so those 100 developers that he speaks of, that are not even considering developing for Win RT, may be doing a 180 once they see the Win8 $$ signs flying by. Time will tell I suppose.

It's kind of fun to hear him talk about MS as if they are so incompetent and late to the party, and in the same breath, not be able to name half of the 15 separate; billion dollar businesses that MS runs. I thought it was more like 8, but I'm no authority.

It's also neat to see first hand a conversation that no one should have on the porch at any party, unless they want to clear the place out instantly. This is the geek world I live in, a fine line between fun geek debate, and room clearing conversation.

We Microsoft fans are used to this, but I agree, as a Microsoft fan, I was out numbered in the room..but it was loads of fun and I would do it again in a minute.

Seriously!!! The dude just said the full Excel experience can be had on an iPad. Excel isn't the poor man's substitute for not learning how to work with tables in word, or to create a csv document...its an analysis tool that just sometimes, just sometimes, i.e. a lot of times, requires hard core analysis of as more than 200 rows of data, requires complicated formulas, requires the use of pivot tables, ties into Access or even enterprise software, etc... Even now, to an inefficient extent, tablets can do this now and in a few years tablets will be able it better but guess what, you will still need a mouse, and you will still need a screen larger than 9.8 inches!!!

While Apple and Google concentrate on content, Microsoft will be busy making their tablets plug into a simple dock with a mouse and keyboard attached, automatically authenticate itself to the enterprise IT environment, and put the tablet screen on a monitor at the desk and then have the employee get on with their job...well, right after they have spent the first hour reading the news or reading up on their Apple or Google products they have at home. etc.

Apple, Google, and Amazon will get the consumer dollars for apps, movies, etc..., while making relatively little on the of their hardware (since that whole supply and demand thing kicks in and the consumer will demand lower prices as their consumer presence gets larger), Microsoft gets the larger dollars from enterprise IT development.

Remember folks, Microsoft has always been corporate/business orientated first and consumer orientated second (that's the only reason we have the option for the Windows 7 style UI in Windows 8 - the Companies require it) while Apple and Goggle have always had the "bring the technology to masses" market mentality.

Edited by solarus, Jul 14 2012, 2:37am :

solarus said,
Seriously!!! The dude just said the full Excel experience can be had on an iPad. Excel isn't the poor man's substitute for not learning how to work with tables in word, or to create a csv document...its an analysis tool that just sometimes, just sometimes, i.e. a lot of times, requires hard core analysis of as more than 200 rows of data, requires complicated formulas, requires the use of pivot tables, ties into Access or even enterprise software, etc... Even now, to an inefficient extent, tablets can do this now and in a few years tablets will be able it better but guess what, you will still need a mouse, and you will still need a screen larger than 9.8 inches!!!

While Apple and Google concentrate on content, Microsoft will be busy making their tablets plug into a simple dock with a mouse and keyboard attached, automatically authenticate itself to the enterprise IT environment, and put the tablet screen on a monitor at the desk and then have the employee get on with their job...well, right after they have spent the first hour reading the news or reading up on their Apple or Google products they have at home. etc.

Apple, Google, and Amazon will get the consumer dollars for apps, movies, etc..., while making relatively little on the of their hardware (since that whole supply and demand thing kicks in and the consumer will demand lower prices as their consumer presence gets larger), Microsoft gets the larger dollars from enterprise IT development.

Remember folks, Microsoft has always been corporate/business orientated first and consumer orientated second (that's the only reason we have the option for the Windows 7 style UI in Windows 8 - the Companies require it) while Apple and Goggle have always had the "bring the technology to masses" market mentality.

Windows-7 UI option in Windows-8? Only after having to go through needless steps, and even then, there is no Start Menu. If this were a true option, the Metro UI would be able to be disabled upon installation or a Registry hack.

Sadly from my own experience most people use Excel to make quick table of data and maybe later sort it or filter it.

Then as a computer technician you are the one dealing with the broken pots.

Excel is a great piece of software when used for what it is. But to simply hold data it's nothing spectacular and this is the way most people use Excel.

I don't know in which world Neowin users live where every people are pro Office users. I've been a computer technician for 15 years and worked for 6 companies and 99% of people working with Office use the basic feature of it you can find in every office suite out there.

LaP said,
Sadly from my own experience most people use Excel to make quick table of data and maybe later sort it or filter it.

Then as a computer technician you are the one dealing with the broken pots.

Excel is a great piece of software when used for what it is. But to simply hold data it's nothing spectacular and this is the way most people use Excel.

I don't know in which world Neowin users live where every people are pro Office users. I've been a computer technician for 15 years and worked for 6 companies and 99% of people working with Office use the basic feature of it you can find in every office suite out there.

I'd say it all depends on your profession. When I was an administrative Assistant all I used was Word and Powerpoint and I was a pro at both. Now as a Budget Analyst, all I use is Powerpoint and I'm a pro at it. I couldn't tell you anything about using today's Powerpoint but Im sure I could fiture it out if I needed to.

LaP said,
Sadly from my own experience most people use Excel to make quick table of data and maybe later sort it or filter it.

Then as a computer technician you are the one dealing with the broken pots.

Excel is a great piece of software when used for what it is. But to simply hold data it's nothing spectacular and this is the way most people use Excel.

I don't know in which world Neowin users live where every people are pro Office users. I've been a computer technician for 15 years and worked for 6 companies and 99% of people working with Office use the basic feature of it you can find in every office suite out there.

There are plenty of people that get by using 5% of the features Excel offers, but I also have seen companies use Excel for way more than it should be used for. I've seen some unbelievably complex spreadsheets where one ****ed up cell formula will have you hunting for hours to find the error.

Don't get me wrong bj i agree with you lot of end users are pro office users and can do really outstanding things using the product. And like you said sometimes they go a little bit too far and then ask IT dept to debug it and it can be hard to debug i know i dealed with some of those Excel documents and macros.

But a lot of end users use office because it's there.

A tablet will never replace a PC but i think some people here greatly under-estimate the work that can be done on a iPad. It's definately a threat to a part of Windows marketshare. Saying otherwise is imo being a little bit delusional.

solarus said,
Remember folks, Microsoft has always been corporate/business orientated first and consumer orientated second (that's the only reason we have the option for the Windows 7 style UI in Windows 8)

The desktop exist only because there simple was no way it could be phased out in time for the launch date; it has to many dependencies. Many applications, for example, can't run in Metro as of yet. Eventually though, it will be eradicated.

There is no question that Microsoft's commitment to Windows-8 and its orientation to touch-screen devices and tablets is a very different new direction. Only Time will tell if it is the correction direction. Abandoning the business orientation that has made Microsoft such a success is a very risky move--even more so, since no provision was made to maintain the business orientation of Windows-7. Consumers are fickle, and when the novelty of touch-screens and the Metro UI wears off, what then?

Really!! Both guys need to understand what Apple is too. When will people realize that Apple's success comes from very very desirable hardware and complete control of content for that hardware (iTunes and the Mac App Store). Apple is a content distribution and design company that happens to sell products for the technology segment of the economy.

solarus said,
Really!! Both guys need to understand what Apple is too. When will people realize that Apple's success comes from very very desirable hardware and complete control of content for that hardware (iTunes and the Mac App Store). Apple is a content distribution and design company that happens to sell products for the technology segment of the economy.

OSX is not a success. :-|

solarus said,
Really!! Both guys need to understand what Apple is too. When will people realize that Apple's success comes from very very desirable hardware and complete control of content for that hardware (iTunes and the Mac App Store). Apple is a content distribution and design company that happens to sell products for the technology segment of the economy.

Apple used the Microsoft Anti-trust restrictions to create their iTunes market, as Microsoft could not bundle or offer the same features as iTunes.

This is not a successful model, this is opportunistic.

Right now the media/music industry hates Apple's control and tie ins, and this bubble is growing to where they will rip iTunes apart as soon as the next model allows.

There is more than one Music/Movie exec that feels like Apple and Jobs 'conned' them and they want out.

thenetavenger said,

Apple used the Microsoft Anti-trust restrictions to create their iTunes market, as Microsoft could not bundle or offer the same features as iTunes.

This is not a successful model, this is opportunistic.

Right now the media/music industry hates Apple's control and tie ins, and this bubble is growing to where they will rip iTunes apart as soon as the next model allows.

There is more than one Music/Movie exec that feels like Apple and Jobs 'conned' them and they want out.

+1 The consent decree with the DOJ essentially crippled Microsoft for a decade.

Apple will one day feel the same backlash Microsoft is currently suffering.

Brony said,

OSX is not a success. :-|

Of course it is, but that's not where Apple is making most of its money. Its making it on 30% of every app sold, and its % share of every song, tv show and movie sold on iTunes. Hence, Apple is a distribution company first, a design company second, and a technology company third.

Microsoft must have been really brutal when they fired Robert Scoble. This guy does nothing but attack Microsoft for a living. I know he owns a Microsoft competitor, Rackspace (sp?) but man Microsoft must have really done something to this guy. The only Microsoft troll in the media who is worse than Scoble is John C. Dvorak. Microsoft apparently requested that Dvorak be fired from his job at some point in the 90's so Dvorak now does nothing but write screeds against Microsoft trashing all of their products. These guys are obviously corrupted and their faux unethical journalism is hysterical. Funny thing is at one point in this he mentions being at a Salesforce event and nobody there being excited about Windows 8. LOL. It's really shocking that a major Microsoft competitor isn't excited about Windows 8.

Did Microsoft really do anything to Dvorak? He was quite the OS/2 fanboy back in the day. He's probably still bitter that IBM lost the Windows wars.

TomJones said,
Did Microsoft really do anything to Dvorak? He was quite the OS/2 fanboy back in the day. He's probably still bitter that IBM lost the Windows wars.

True, and yet he didn't get why the OS/2 kernel was crap or why a single input queue for the UI was a bad idea. These were things that were way over Dvoraks head, and yet he insisted that the 'engineers' in the industry were too stupid to see the brilliance of OS/2.

Watching Dvorak's writing over the course of a few months/years is a lot like watching a young child figure out how something works, and then stop talking about it when they realize how silly they sounded when they were younger.

Avatar Roku said,
I know he owns a Microsoft competitor, Rackspace (sp?) but man Microsoft must have really done something to this guy.

He doesn't own Rackspace. He's not even an executive there. His title is "Startup Liaison".

Scoble is a moron. He argues that companies will switch from Windows to Ipads. Try using ANY tablet to open a 10MB-20MB Excel file and actually work with it, can't be done, Besides, office and business applications are just not usable for touch environments. He is an idiot that argues that the consumer world is the same as the corporate world...they are not. Custom apps for iOS and/or Android are not the same as the full-on office and enterprise apps that actually run today's businesses, instead of providing access to sales or shipping data for employees on the road or off site. What we are seeing in today's world is a bifurcation of the OS market between consumer and corporate, not a switch from one company dominating all aspects of the OS market. Apple and Android look like they could dominate the home market (along with Amazon) while Microsoft will still continue to dominate the in-office experience.

And don't get me started on his opinion of dlna...all of a sudden a standard that any company can use independently is a bad thing and a proprietary apple format is the shizzle!!! Dis I say that Scoble is an idiot yet!

The other guy makes better sense, but apparently he also believes that whenever a company improves their OS they are admitting the prior version was a POS!!! That doesn't say much for his IQ either.

Edited by solarus, Jul 14 2012, 1:57am :

solarus said,
Scoble is a moron. He argues that companies will switch from Windows to Ipads. Try using ANY tablet to open a 10MB-20MB Excel file and actually work with it, can't be done, Besides, office and business applications are just not usable for touch environments. He is an idiot that argues that the consumer world is the same as the corporate world...they are not. Custom apps for iOS and/or Android are not the same as the full-on office and enterprise apps that actually run today's businesses, instead of providing access to sales or shipping data for employees on the road or off site. What we are seeing in today's world is a bifurcation of the OS market between consumer and corporate, not a switch from one company dominating all aspects of the OS market. Apple and Android look like they could dominate the home market (along with Amazon) while Microsoft will still continue to dominate the in-office experience.

And don't get me started on his opinion of dlna...all of a sudden a standard that any company can use independently is a bad thing and a proprietary apple format is the shizzle!!! Dis I say that Scoble is an idiot yet!

The other guy makes better sense, but apparently he also believes that whenever a company improves their OS they are admitting the prior version was a POS!!! That doesn't say much for his IQ either.

+1

He is a socialite in the media side of technology and thinks he 'gets' the industry better than they people creating the technology.

There is a reason is not working at Microsoft anymore and there is a reason the 'thinkers' in the tech industry stopped listening to him a long time ago.

Scoble is living in a completely different world. He actually argues that the app situation on the iPad is better than the apps on desktop Windows, and that the iPad is more useful than a tablet that can run x86 apps. These guys act like every developer is ignoring Windows 8, when it's literally impossible for Windows 8 to be ignored as a platform because there will be hundreds of millions of Windows 8 devices sold.

The developers that were in the room were also living in another world, they all own Macbooks, and one of the guys legitimately thinks that Windows 8 would be more successful if a startup created the product. The ENTIRE reason Windows 8 will be successful is because it's Microsoft.

Edited by Omen1393, Jul 14 2012, 1:14am :

Omen1393 said,
Scoble is living in a completely different world. He actually argues that the app situation on the iPad is better than the apps on desktop Windows, and that the iPad is more useful than a tablet that can run x86 apps. These guys act like every developer is ignoring Windows 8, when it's literally impossible for Windows 8 to be ignored as a platform because there will be hundreds of millions of Windows 8 devices sold.

The developers that were in the room were also living in another world, they all own Macbooks, and one of the guys legitimately thinks that Windows 8 would be more successful if a startup created the product. The ENTIRE reason Windows 8 will be successful is because it's Microsoft.

that guy is drinking too much apple juice.... comparing ios to Windows is a joke you can add up all ios devices sold in one year and they do not equal the amount of win 7 liceneses sold in the same period. So the notion enterprise company are going to throw away their corporate networks and start using ipads is insane...

I didn't bother to watch the video yet , but at some point he was also arguing that hard drives are obsolete, that everyone is going to put all their data on the cloud, that rich-client apps were obsolete, that people were going to run browser apps and mashups only, he was also pitching goofy "aspirational" UIs. Scoble is into trendy ideas.

gzAsher said,
Robert Scoble who?
Sorry didn't watch the video. Too long.

He's a Microsoft technical evangelist. IIRC he was the main video producer on the MSDN's channel9 before he moved on to other things. Haven't watched any channel 9 stuff for a while so he might be back.

Scoble is pretty well known in the tech industry, and now you know of him too

sagum said,

He's a Microsoft technical evangelist. IIRC he was the main video producer on the MSDN's channel9 before he moved on to other things. Haven't watched any channel 9 stuff for a while so he might be back.

Scoble is pretty well known in the tech industry, and now you know of him too

So Microsoft fired him and he started a competing company and now all he does is attack Microsoft and pretend to be impartial. I love how he constantly tries to use the fact that he used to work for Microsoft as cover for his blatant mindless trolling. This guy is making arguments that no developers are interested in Windows and when you go to work with your Windows tablet nobody at work will be running Windows (everyone will have iOS). Over the top stupidity.

sagum said,
He's a Microsoft technical evangelist.

this was no debate, it was a joke, both the interviewer and intervieweee were both slapping themselves on the back for a "Job well done, Microsoft"

WIndows 8 is crap. Stillborn. the next windows ME/Vista. No future. End of story.

SharpGreen said,
Or we can call them by their actual Job Title which is Technical Evangelist. Besides Scoble doesn't work for MS anymore...or rather I didn't think he did.

Maybe a better title needs to be used instead of 'Technical Evangelist' because I too cringe when I hear that term being used it always sounds cheesy to a certain extent.

Avatar Roku said,

So Microsoft fired him and he started a competing company and now all he does is attack Microsoft and pretend to be impartial. I love how he constantly tries to use the fact that he used to work for Microsoft as cover for his blatant mindless trolling. This guy is making arguments that no developers are interested in Windows and when you go to work with your Windows tablet nobody at work will be running Windows (everyone will have iOS). Over the top stupidity.

Except that he never started any company. He's basically a worker bee for Rackspace who happens to blog.