The Pirate Bay's final day in court

As the court heard the closing statements today in The Pirate Bay's trial the defendants' four lawyers all closed with the same argument, stating The Pirate Bay does not host any of the illegal copyrighted material. The web site only acts as a search engine, much like Google, Microsoft's Live Search and Yahoo.

As the prosecutors failed to bring any real evidence to the table, including screens shots involving illegal activity from The Pirate Bay that was shot down due to lack of evidence that the files were actually located on the web site. The prosecutors claimed the site was running 64 advertisements making revenue off of copyrighted material was also proven false. The site currently only has 4 running advertisements that cover only server costs of 800,000 Kronor ($88,300 U.S.), not the suspected millions people claim.

Fredrik, one of the sites coders got the site back up and running after a down time last night, from inside the courtroom saying: "I fixed the Pirate Bay from inside the courtroom just minutes ago. The site is back online,"

The verdict is expected on April 17, 2009 to see if The Pirate Bay owners will face up to 2 years in prison.

Link: Neowin.net Forum Discussion

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Using a car dealer analogy, a dealership sells the cars...what the owner does with doesn't make the dealership libel if they use it to rob a bank. But using the name "Pirates Bay" turns heads like a dealership using a sales pitch like "this car is the fastest get away car for your robbery needs!" But of course maybe the web site's owners are just fans of Captain Jack Sparrow & the Pirates of the Caribbean

Just to play devil's advocate, there is one more issue with the Pirate Bay other than the name. They have search categories for things like... Xbox 360 games. It's more than clear that the site is aimed at piracy, though since they don't host the files they are doing nothing wrong legally so they'll more than likely win this case.

Its pretty boring reading these comments. Why is there so many politicians on this site? I love pirate bays attitude f the system don't live a life someone else wants you to live. Do what the hell you like I say.

Soldiers33 said,
i want piratebay to win, becuase i hate the way usa thinks they have power over everyone.

erm sorry to break it to you but this has nothing to do with the U.S.A

@ SniperX / Spirit Dave:

The Pirate Bay exists to spread .torrent files. They index and host a file containing a checksum and other basic metadata containing nothing copyright.

Google exists to spread HTML/PDFs. They index and cache HTML files.


Because a technology can be used for something bad doesn't make the technology bad. It makes the end users who abused it and break the law bad.

BitTorrent technology is used to distribute large files across public networks. That isn't illegal. If somone distributes copyright material over it then does it make the protocol or method illegal? Or just the actions of the person illegal?

The same argument applies to weapons. Legal and above board. However someone can (and they have!) use them for illegal purposes. Personally I feel it's immoral for everyone in the USA to have the right to have a weapon. However it's legal for them to do so. The tool is not illegal, just what some people could do with it.

And save your moral outcryings. Your morals have no relation to the law.

stevehoot said,
The Pirate Bay exists to spread .torrent files. They index and host a file containing a checksum and other basic metadata containing nothing copyright.

I can't speak for Spirit Dave. However, on techincal aspects, I agree with you in full. But, that's the law and technical side. Now, before you start, I know the court case is dealing with the law and the law only. That's fine, and I think we both know which way the case will go.

However, scrape away the technical aspects for a moment, and the legal aspects, and what are you left with? You are left with what the PirateBay is actually being used for, by, I suspect, the overwhelming majority of its users. You are also left with the notion that the owners of the site are very aware of this. (They would have to be completely stupid not to be.) I would also happily bet money that the owners of TPB maintain the site because of its reputation as a primary piracy site. If there were just Linux and other valid torrents available, I doubt very much that the site would exist, and it certainly wouldn't go out of its way to stick the finger to authority, and it wouldn't need to hide behind Swedish law either.

I'm afraid I can't comment on the gun laws as I don't see it as anywhere near a relevant analogy.

SniperX said,
However, scrape away the technical aspects for a moment, and the legal aspects, and what are you left with? You are left with what the PirateBay is actually being used for, by, I suspect, the overwhelming majority of its users. You are also left with the notion that the owners of the site are very aware of this. (They would have to be completely stupid not to be.) I would also happily bet money that the owners of TPB maintain the site because of its reputation as a primary piracy site. If there were just Linux and other valid torrents available, I doubt very much that the site would exist, and it certainly wouldn't go out of its way to stick the finger to authority, and it wouldn't need to hide behind Swedish law either.

If they weren't called the Pirate Bay and were called The Torrant Search or something more generic would you have the same argument? 80% of what they host *is* legal but im not going to pretend that the most popular downloads are in fact these but it is the fault of the users not the site. The site has done nothing wrong legally (morals aside) other than refuse to honour the requests and threats of large organisations and allow torrents to copyrighted stuff to exist and remain and maybe poke a bit of fun at the organisations who ASSUME they have broken the law and take the default action of THREATEN, THREATEN, THREATEN, SUE, SUE, SUE when they believe they have been wronged.

I respect the Pirate Bay not for what their are doing but because of the stance they have taken. The entertainment industry is far to quick to waaaaaaghhhh when they find something they don't like and more often than not abuse and bully anybody they want. Where the pirate bay is unique is that they have based themselfs out of US law and have in FACT broken no laws whatsoever. If their servers were based in say the US and they had broken no law then the site would have shut down a long time ago simply because it would have happened as soon as they started throwing money and lawyers at the right people.

If the companies are that concerned about people downloading their stuff then they should go after the people seeding the torrants. More often that not though this proves "unprofitable" as the RIAA found by suing thousands of people for more money than they will ever make in their lifetime for sharing a few dozen to 1000 songs amounting to maybe $12-$1000 worth of music. You work out pretty quickly that if you sue a student for $lolrofl money the chances of you ever seeing it are about 0% unless they win the lottery.

The amusing thing about it all however is the miscomprehention that all these people they sued who can barely afford beans on toast or their mortgage would have magically "brought" all the music they downloaded if they hadn't of been able to download it. But then 100 downloaded films = 100 of loss revenue in dvds right!

A few facts that spirit dave seems to be missing

Fact, the pirate bay is not doing anything illegal.
Fact, the pirate bay are a search engine like any other search engine.
Fact, the pirate bay do NOT host any files other than torrent files.
Fact, .torrent files are NOT illegal.
Fact, Moral's are NOT the issue in this court case.
Fact, NOT everyone who supports the pirate bay in this court case are pirates.
Fact, Spirit Dave IS a hypocrite as you have already admitted that you used to download illegal files
Fact, Downloading copy written material is NOT stealing , you ARE just merely making a copy which break's copyright law completely differant

I have probably missed out a lot more facts but it's 7:30 in the morning I need coffee and i also need to start work , sorry spirit dave you can not say that everyone who supports the pirate bay in this court case are pirates , that's just ignorant.

rheostat said,
My troll sense tingles whenever Spirit Dave posts.

Really? Then perhaps your troll-sensor needs some fine-tuning. It seems to be set to go off whenever someone states an opinion that you don't like.

@Spirit Dave: I applaud your attempts, but you're never going to convincve the hardened thieves on Neowin that what they are doing is wrong.

They will cling to the same arguments ('I download Linux', 'It's just a search engine', etc. etc.) not specifically because they believe them arguments but because they read those same points somewhere else and it made them feel better about stealing. (They'll even dispute that they are stealing of course, clinging to every single analogy they can grab hold of.)

The reality is that these same users know as well as you and I that behind all the rhetoric, the childish excuses, and the 'What me, gov?' excuses, TPB exists for one primary purpose, to facilitate the downloading of copyrighted materials. They stick the finger up at the authorities and continue their mission as though they are doing us all a favour. Everyone knows this, but again, users can't admit it.

You just can't argue with that sort of thinking as they HAVE to be right in order to justify their actions. What's the alternative? They admit to themselves that they are too poor to pay for software that they don't really need? That they don't have enough moral guidance to refrain from doing what is wrong? That they are so arrogant, they believe they will never be caught? The list goes on...

It's a losing argument, but again, I applaud your efforts.

SniperX said,
Really? Then perhaps your troll-sensor needs some fine-tuning. It seems to be set to go off whenever someone states an opinion that you don't like.

@Spirit Dave: I applaud your attempts, but you're never going to convincve the hardened thieves on Neowin that what they are doing is wrong.

They will cling to the same arguments ('I download Linux', 'It's just a search engine', etc. etc.) not specifically because they believe them arguments but because they read those same points somewhere else and it made them feel better about stealing. (They'll even dispute that they are stealing of course, clinging to every single analogy they can grab hold of.)

The reality is that these same users know as well as you and I that behind all the rhetoric, the childish excuses, and the 'What me, gov?' excuses, TPB exists for one primary purpose, to facilitate the downloading of copyrighted materials. They stick the finger up at the authorities and continue their mission as though they are doing us all a favour. Everyone knows this, but again, users can't admit it.

You just can't argue with that sort of thinking as they HAVE to be right in order to justify their actions. What's the alternative? They admit to themselves that they are too poor to pay for software that they don't really need? That they don't have enough moral guidance to refrain from doing what is wrong? That they are so arrogant, they believe they will never be caught? The list goes on...

It's a losing argument, but again, I applaud your efforts.

Wow nice of you to generalise for everyone and paint them with the same brush just as ignorant as spirit dave well done , read my post below they are fact's they are not justifying anything they are just facts , plain and simple, i would love you to try and back up your sweeping generalisation with proof that everyone who supports the pirate bay in this court case are pirates and doing illegal things.

Wow nice of you to generalise for everyone and paint them with the same brush just as ignorant as spirit dave well done

No. Now put down your hammer and reread. I started my post, quite specifically aiming at the right people. If you don't, can't or won't read my words in full but just take out the bits you feel you can argue with, that is your failing, not mine. Now let me repeat my line for the hard of understanding:

...you're never going to convince the hardened thieves on Neowin that what they are doing is wrong...

SniperX said,
No. Now put down your hammer and reread. I started my post, quite specifically aiming at the right people. If you don't, can't or won't read my words in full but just take out the bits you feel you can argue with, that is your failing, not mine. Now let me repeat my line for the hard of understanding:

And how do you know who the harden thieves are ? how can YOU tell the difference between those that support them in this court case and general p2pers ? you can't can you , you just made a sweeping generalisation. as far as i can tell in this thread no one has said they download files infact the ironic thing here is the only person to have admitted breaking copyright law and downloading illegal files is spirit dave himself, what i can tell is that alot of people do support the pirate bay in this court case because of the law in sweden and the way the court case has been handle by those that took the pirate bay to court..

Fubar said,
And how do you know who the harden thieves are ?

Good grief. How old are you? I don't need to know who they are to write what I wrote. It applies to those who are. What a ridiculously childish question to ask. Good grief, I don't get paid enough to sit here teaching you English or basic understanding.

Please, stop wasting my time and yours with such childish responses.

SniperX said,
Good grief. How old are you? I don't need to know who they are to write what I wrote. It applies to those who are. What a ridiculously childish question to ask. Good grief, I don't get paid enough to sit here teaching you English or basic understanding.

Well done when all else fails resort to pointless twaddle again you have seemed to miss the whole point of this thread , most support the pirate bay because of the law in Sweden and the way the court case has been handled hey but dismiss the facts and what not I don't care I'm not the one with the problem regarding the pirate bay you obviously are I also fail to see what age has to do with it. and if you are getting paid to sit here responding to threads on a computer site I wouldn't mind your job , then again im self employed and pay myself ;)


Edit

sniperx it is not a childish response it is merely point out where you have gone wrong that is all I do apologise but no one is forcing you to sit here replying to a thread where you have already labelled everyone as a thief , if you dont want to sit here wasting your time responding then don't it is that simple my good man.

Fubar said,
I also fail to see what age has to do with it.

Christ, this is painful. Age? There is a difference between acting childish and being young you know. Actually, don't bother. lol I'd be here all day.


if you dont want to sit here wasting your time responding then don't it is that simple my good man.

Damn, now you got me. If I leave you to hammer away furiously (with really very childish responses) and don't give you the time of day, then it's because you told me to and so you beat me. Damn, what am I to do? I know, be the adult....

SniperX said,
Christ, this is painful. Age? There is a difference between acting childish and being young you know. Actually, don't bother. lol I'd be here all day.

Damn, now you got me. If I leave you to hammer away furiously (with really very childish responses) and don't give you the time of day, then it's because you told me to and so you beat me. Damn, what am I to do? I know, be the adult....

I really fail to see what relevance this has to the topic of the thread ?? i was asking you a question that you either couldn't answer or didn't want to answer , can we please stay on topic ? what are pirate bay doing wrong ?? they are not breaking any laws afterall.

The sad fact is that people like Spirit Dave and SniperX don't care about what the law says. They've already made up their mind that using torrents is illegal and morally wrong. People who dissent with this view are mocked or labeled "thieves". Unfortunately for them, using rhetoric such as this rarely persuades, and ultimately amounts to the equivalent of patting themselves on the back, repeating "I'm right, I'm right, I'm right".

Geez guys, Spirit Dave, you feel your way is right, they feel their way is right.

you are at an impasse, leave it as it is.

BTW, YOU ARE ALL WRONG!!! :)~ (sorry had to have an excuse)

TPB is clearly a site that people mostly use to get pirated stuff. No doubt. And I use it amongst others to download stuff I need. But seriously, its far more effective sometimes to just search google. But its not like RIAA/MPAA would ever think of going against Google/MS/Yahoo etc etc.

On a different note, its really sad that some (clueless) people out there automatically assume that .torrent file = pirated file. BT as a torrent is by far the best protocol ever made when it comes to data distribution. If you want to easily and cheaply distribute a large file BT is the way to go. No wonder blizzard (amongst many others) uses it to distribute large amounts of data (patches) to 10+ mils of subscribers. No wonder linux distros use it. So it really strikes me oddly that some people only think of it as a way to move pirated data.

Did I? Let's go back and look at your very first post:

"They're allowing pirates to steal stuff ... it's idiotic that anyone thinks there's any moral argument here. The law is sometimes wrong. In this case, if these pirates get away with it, the law will have failed."

I and others have pointed out that's a bunch of nonsense, saying the law is wrong because you think it is. Laws don't work that way, unless enough people think it's wrong to get it changed. When that happens here get back to us, until then the Pirate Bay isn't breaking any law.

So no, I don't think I missed your point. I just think your point is ridiculous.

Spirit Dave said,
You've missed my point TRC. So in future ... no need to reply eh :)

It is an impressive talent to write so much with your eyes closed so tight.

Self-righteousness is a feeling of smug moral superiority derived from a sense that one's beliefs, actions, or affiliations are of greater virtue than those of the average person. That pretty much sums up his posts so far, calling others thieves and all that. Either way it has jack squat to do with the law or this case so give it a rest. They aren't breaking any laws, end of story.

If a taxi driver knows he's driving a drug dealer to a deal, he should stop and tell the guy to get out.

If cigarette companies put addictive drugs into cigarettes they should stop. It's evil.

These things may not change, but the fact is ... they should.

Spirit Dave said,
If a taxi driver knows he's driving a drug dealer to a deal, he should stop and tell the guy to get out.

If cigarette companies put addictive drugs into cigarettes they should stop. It's evil.

These things may not change, but the fact is ... they should.

You are comparing peoples morals with illegal activity. Your comparisons dont compare TPB issues at all. It is MORALLY wrong to drive someone to a drug deal. It is MORALLY wrong to put addictive substances in products. It is ILLEGAL to host pirated software or to download pirated software. The problem is , TPB neither DLs or hosts pirated content.

I think our current copyright system is stupid and morally wrong. The RIAA and their practices and tactics, absolutely morally wrong. None of that matters though because the current laws are what count, not people's opinions.

I just knew this thread would turn into a thread full of pirates trying to tell everyone how it's perfectly fine to use torrents.

Sorry, but morally, even if you don't upload, you're still taking something you have ZERO rights to have. < That sentence ... doesn't it make any sense to you ?

By MY morals, I think that's just fine, and BY MY MORALS I also think that anybody who says what you said should be fined.

But who cares about what I think? It's the law who decides, which are morals agreed by the masses.

Thanks for opening my eyes. I will never again download the new Ubuntu version via torrents cause it's MORALLY WRONG!

uupis said,
Thanks for opening my eyes. I will never again download the new Ubuntu version via torrents cause it's MORALLY WRONG!


Exactly. Dave has just missed a point TPB tried to get across themselves. Dave, did you even READ the court news the last few weeks?

Spirit Dave said,
I just knew this thread would turn into a thread full of pirates trying to tell everyone how it's perfectly fine to use torrents.

Sorry, but morally, even if you don't upload, you're still taking something you have ZERO rights to have. < That sentence ... doesn't it make any sense to you ?

You're more than welcome to host an ftp just for me when a WoW patch comes out so I can suck your bandwidth dry.

I am fed up of people in the press not mentioning that a lot people use P2P search engines to find and share open source software and non copyright material. It's fast and efficient. Also, if it's guilt by association you want, the main search engine vendors are infinitely worse offenders than the likes of the pirate bay. If you search for a review of a piece of software, for instance, you can sometimes find yourself on a site with torrent links or other, supported by hardcore porn banner ads, both of which puts innocents in harms way of temptation who otherwise might never have considered illegal behavior. By instead going after the pirate bay and having them on the news every night, you just make for martyrs and further the 'cool' cult of rebellious behavior. It's goes so far beyond Monty Python territory.

Linux, anyone?

If they are intentionally taxing the dealers without being under duress - yes. They should also report it. The only person you normally dont have to report for breaking the law is your husband or wife - otherwise you are breaking the law.

Happy?

There's no law that says a person has to report a crime, especially when one hasn't even happened yet. So no, you would not be breaking the law.

If the crime about to be committed could cause danger to another person then I think you do. Selling drugs that are classified as illegal have implied danger associated, and therefore could classify a necessity to report.

Spirit Dave said,
And you're a theif.

Any your a hypocrite as you said you "used" to download music and software in your other reply to me.

Oh, and thief is spelled IE, not EI.

techbeck said,
Any your a hypocrite as you said you "used" to download music and software in your other reply to me.

Oh, and thief is spelled IE, not EI. :)

So when I want to call someone a thief, I say "You're an IE!" :P Sorry.

But yeah dave, sorry dude - TPB has legit means (linux? non-copyright software?)

techbeck said,
Any your a hypocrite as you said you "used" to download music and software in your other reply to me.

Oh, and thief is spelled IE, not EI. :)

Yes it is And when I clicked the EDIT button to correct the mistake the moment I'd posted, all the buttons on my browser window dissapeared. Making jokes about someone's spelling on an internet site is pretty childish.

Btw ... I didn't deny that I stole data from the net. I admitted it ... but that's not my issue. I'm simply saying that it's wrong and the pirate bay are out of line with what they're doing. And I stand by that. Do I think they'll get shut down? Probably not. Do I care outside of this argument? Nope. I just love piracy debates ... the reason people support sites like TPB is because they pirate software and music etc themselves and love to use TPB etc to find stuff to steal.

Spirit Dave said,

Yes it is And when I clicked the EDIT button to correct the mistake the moment I'd posted, all the buttons on my browser window dissapeared. Making jokes about someone's spelling on an internet site is pretty childish.

Btw ... I didn't deny that I stole data from the net. I admitted it ... but that's not my issue. I'm simply saying that it's wrong and the pirate bay are out of line with what they're doing. And I stand by that. Do I think they'll get shut down? Probably not. Do I care outside of this argument? Nope. I just love piracy debates ... the reason people support sites like TPB is because they pirate software and music etc themselves and love to use TPB etc to find stuff to steal.


uhh no i support the pirate bay in this case because they are not doing anything illegal , i support them because the people who took them to court did so without knowing what they where taking them to court about , so stop you're utter twaddle and single mindedness you ignorant fool . quit thinking that everyone is a pirate when they are not

They're not being charged with causing people to pirate, they're being charged with assisting.

The appropriate analogy would be if you wanted to race your car against my bike on a half-mile strip of public road. If we were busted: you and I would be charged with speeding, dangerous driving, street racing, etc.

The people at either end of the street that dropped the flags (and were supposed to warn us about the cops showing up) would be charged with assisting (likely "causing a hazard" or "stunting"). I'm not aware of any nation that has an "assisting others in speeding charge" so they all use variations of the ones mentioned to serve that role. The idea is the same though obviously the car analogy breaks down—no pun intended—because we're dealing with a very different set of circumstances.

The accusation is that "<group x> conspired to break <law y> and <group z> was instrumental in making that possible".

TechGuyPA said,
Your driving your car.....your speeding (we all speed dont lie and say you dont)....so why arent the car companies being taken to court for providing you a means to break the law?


You are smoking, you get cancer. So why cigarete makers are being sued?

You can sue anyone you want, doesn't mean you will win. Cigarettes are not illegal, people choose to start smoking knowing full well the consequences.

Julius Caro said,
because you're not breaking the law by P2P'ing copyrighted files.

Yes, you are. In the case of torrents, especially, you have to upload while downloading. The act of uploading is a violation of the law as you are distributing copyrighted material without consent from the copyright owner.

FoxieFoxie said,
You are smoking, you get cancer. So why cigarete makers are being sued?

Because cigarettes are chemically addictive. If a person could quite smoking whenever they wanted, I would argue that people have no choice but to blame themselves. The trouble is that nicotine is highly addictive, and many people who do smoke and later want to quit, can't. The physical withdrawal symptoms are too much for them. That sort of addiction is incredibly nasty, and I would argue that every time a person unwillingly buys and uses more cigarettes because they're attempting to stop withdrawal symptoms, it's as if a company worker took a gun and forced you to buy their product.

Look, Coca Cola used to add trace amounts of cocaine into their soft drink. (Were you wondering how they got their name?) The idea was that customers would drink it, become slightly addicted to the cocaine (without realizing it), and keep buying more Coca Cola to feed the addiction. From a business standpoint that's beautiful - you're turning everyone into cash cows, who literally won't be able to stop buying your product. From a social and ethical standpoint that's wrong. The government felt so, too, and Coca Cola was banned from doing that. That's partly the reason for why we have the FDA and why food companies are required to list all ingredients on their products.

I'd imagine that very few people here would think that Coca Cola was in the right for doing what they did. So tell me - why should cigarettes be any different?

And that is why cigarette companies receive lawsuits.

Cocaine is illegal, nicotine is not. Is it wrong morally for the tobacco companies to do that, sure but there is no law against it. Besides you can't get addicted until you start, and if you're dumb enough to start smoking knowing full well that it's addictive and dangerous it's your own fault.

Speaking of smoking... I just quit yesterday and my God it's one of the hardest things I've ever had to do. Good thing Camel makes Snus; the only thing helping me right now... well that... and smoking herb.

It may be morally wrong but being immoral is not against the law (don't take that to the extreme and say "murder is immoral and it's against the law - You all know what I meant :P.). If they can't find anything solid then they won't be found guilty.

DigitalManifestations said,
It may be morally wrong but being immoral is not against the law (don't take that to the extreme and say "murder is immoral and it's against the law - You all know what I meant :P.). If they can't find anything solid then they won't be found guilty.

There's a difference between morality and legality. The laws of a society are the codification of the collective 'average' of morals held by that society. You may have a personal morality that forbids eating oranges - to do so may be immoral but wouldn't be illegal.

Likewise laws may make some things illegal that many people do not consider immoral (for example: anal sex or owning a copy of the bible).

All I can say is, I'm for these guys winning this case. I cannot justify piracy, in fact I'm much against even the promotion of piracy (see my blog).

However, these people are well within their law regardless of their "intent". Quite frankly, I don't really see anything from them promoting piracy themselves outside of a name (sue someone for their name? seriously?). They either tell people requesting stuff down to screw off or break the law down for them. It's their site, if what they're doing isn't illegal, why should they listen to others on how to run their website?

In perspective, sites like Rapidshare, Megaupload, and so forth have a lot of illegal files on there. Sure, the owners of those sites may work to take those files down, but I think everyone here can pretty much agree that it is simply an impossible task! There's always illegal stuff to be found there, and what's worse: it's hosted on that website specifically. If they take it down, it comes right back up.

They're allowing pirates to steal stuff ... it's idiotic that anyone thinks there's any moral argument here. The law is sometimes wrong. In this case, if these pirates get away with it, the law will have failed.

I hate pirates who try and justify themselves.

If The Pirate Bay (they even take the joke out with their name) was a generic search engine ... fine. But it's geared purely to find pirated products.

Spirit Dave said,
They're allowing pirates to steal stuff ... it's idiotic that anyone thinks there's any moral argument here. The law is sometimes wrong. In this case, if these pirates get away with it, the law will have failed.

I hate pirates who try and justify themselves.

If The Pirate Bay (they even take the joke out with their name) was a generic search engine ... fine. But it's geared purely to find pirated products.

I hate righteous people.

If you actually look there's more warez, movies, music etc available with a google search then on TBP.

Spirit Dave said,
They're allowing pirates to steal stuff ... it's idiotic that anyone thinks there's any moral argument here. The law is sometimes wrong. In this case, if these pirates get away with it, the law will have failed.

I hate pirates who try and justify themselves.

If The Pirate Bay (they even take the joke out with their name) was a generic search engine ... fine. But it's geared purely to find pirated products.

i dont think you see the whole point of this tbh , besides it's copying some thing not stealing two totally different things

The law is sometimes wrong.

LMAO, the law is the law. Next time you get a ticket try telling the judge the law is wrong, let me know how that works out for you.

^^^

It's true though. I mean the big search engines like Google, MS, Yahoo, etc.. have many search results for illegal stuff, even links to torrents, but is is ok since all they are is an index, but for the pirate bay it is wrong, even thought they are basically they same thing but for a niche audience. And the fact is MS, Google, Yahoo, actually have the money and resources to monitor and weed out links to illegal material if they so wish, but don't because they make money off the ads you see on their pages. Google, the biggest search engine on the net even goes so far as to allow pirates to advertise illegal crap on google adsense. Hell i've seen links to pirates movies on the ads here on neowin (obviously not by the choice of the neowin staff!).

So you can't technically say its ok google to have links to illegal stuff because they are a huge company, but not pirate bay or any other torrent site for that matter, just because they cater to certain searches. Also the "in your face" attitude the pirate bay operators have it because of this point.

Our laws aren't based on morals though. According to the law the site has done nothing wrong and that's all that matters.

Spirit Dave said,
They're allowing pirates to steal stuff ... it's idiotic that anyone thinks there's any moral argument here. The law is sometimes wrong. In this case, if these pirates get away with it, the law will have failed.

I hate pirates who try and justify themselves.

If The Pirate Bay (they even take the joke out with their name) was a generic search engine ... fine. But it's geared purely to find pirated products.

The law didn't fail because there is no law to fail. If the Swedish government / people wish to change their law, they're entirely free to do so. Until then, you can't simply throw people in jail just because you don't like the people going to court.

TRC said,
LMAO, the law is the law. Next time you get a ticket try telling the judge the law is wrong, let me know how that works out for you.

Not all laws are wrong, but some are.

For example many people feel that prohibition of marijuana or forbidding assisted suicide are wrong and there are ongoing efforts to have them repealed.

Other noteworthy examples of laws that were wrong include slavery and later segregation rules that persisted until the middle of the 20th century in America (and still exist in developing nations) and depending on your stance: laws prohibiting or protecting abortion rights.

There are many who feel that copyright and patent law has gotten out of hand and that it no longer serves the purpose it was originally setup for.

Those are nice examples, but the problem here is all those laws were changed. When they change the law making search engines illegal they can certainly sue and shut the place down, but that's not the case right now so it doesn't matter.

Its not like you never recorded something on VHS that you saw on tv, or copied a cassete tape or even burned a cd of some one elses music. I am pretty sure everyone here is guilty of all of these so how can anyone say what pirate bay is doing is wrong or if its stealing. Some people here need to take a look in the mirror. It wasnt too long ago that this site had all kinds of links to illegal software and such in a member only section. Initially that was the reason I joined Neowin to begin with, so I could try software before I bought it to see if it was worth it.

TRC said,
Those are nice examples, but the problem here is all those laws were changed.

No, they haven't been.

Assisted suicide is still largely forbidden in America. Marijuana is a controlled substance and simple position (multiple times) can send someone to prison for decades. Prostitution is illegal in most counties. Same-sex mariage is not legally recognized, etc. Not all countries recognize women as equal citizens, and others have a death sentence for preaching Christianity.

Whether you agree that "nobody should be allowed to have anal sex" or "nobody should be allowed to smoke pot" or not the fact remains that there are sizable groups that think those laws shouldn't exist because they are not just. For example it's not hard to find examples of people that supported slavery right up until the ratification of the emancipation proclamation and who protested afterwards that their rights had been executed and the passage of unjust and ungodly mandage by congress. They held parades and mock funerals with black-painted or "american liberty" labeled coffins (see: Walter B. Edgar's "South Carolina: A history", pages 210 and 252)

To make the arugment that a law is just because it hasn't been repealed is dishonest. Using that reasoning it would be illegal for a black to learn to read or write in some states. Many, like those supporting the pirate bay in this trial argue that patent and copyright law have grown to the point that these laws are unjust.

When they change the law making search engines illegal they can certainly sue and shut the place down, but that's not the case right now so it doesn't matter.

What does this have to do with your original point that "The law is the law".

Following an unjust law is not moral and it is not justifiable. There is a crime in the military commonly known as insubordination—basically the refusal to follow orders. However breaking that rule when ordered to do something illegal (like raping/murdering a prisoner) is not only morally required, it is not a legal defense to claim "I was only following orders."

Spirit Dave said,
They're allowing pirates to steal stuff ... it's idiotic that anyone thinks there's any moral argument here. The law is sometimes wrong. In this case, if these pirates get away with it, the law will have failed.

I hate pirates who try and justify themselves.

If The Pirate Bay (they even take the joke out with their name) was a generic search engine ... fine. But it's geared purely to find pirated products.

You are not very informed are you? TPB is a search engine and if they lose, the Google, Microsoft, Yahoo, and every other search engine should be sued as well. Hell, may as well sue to inventor of Bittorrent as well....

evn. said,
What does this have to do with your original point that "The law is the law".

I don't know how much simpler I can make it. If something is against the law that's all that matters in a legal case.

Following an unjust law is not moral and it is not justifiable.

There's that word again, morals. How many times must it be said that morals have nothing to do with it? You might feel that the law against smoking marijuana is wrong, but if you light one up you're still going to jail.

There is a crime in the military commonly known as insubordination₉€basically the refusal to follow orders. However breaking that rule when ordered to do something illegal (like raping/murdering a prisoner) is not only morally required, it is not a legal defense to claim "I was only following orders."

It is not insubordination to disobey an unlawful order.

techbeck said,

You are not very informed are you? TPB is a search engine and if they lose, the Google, Microsoft, Yahoo, and every other search engine should be sued as well. Hell, may as well sue to inventor of Bittorrent as well....

Seems to me that you're arguing with me for the sake of it.

The Pirate Bay ... ahem ... you'd probably find it helpful to re-read what I said ... is directly targetting pirate software. It's purposely actively trying to facilitate the illegal download of pirated goods.

THAT's what I meant and you cannot compare Google to The Pirate Bay. It's like you going and buying 20 CD's from a store, coming home and finding out one was pirated. Big mistake on the stores part sure, but they're not actively trying to sell you pirate stuff. The Pirate Bay is the equivalent of you going to a car boot sale and buying ALL pirate CD's from a dodgy guy out of the boot of his car.

My God. I'm not actually self righeous at all... I've used pirate stuff in the past etc and have downloaded music ... like every last one of you lot. Difference is, I don't try and justify it. I know it's bang out of order and I don't do it anymore. You lot will keep doing it because you feel it's your God given right.

Digix said,


I hate righteous people.

If you actually look there's more warez, movies, music etc available with a google search then on TBP.

exactly just search in Google: filetype:torrent metallica

The Pirate Bay ... ahem ... you'd probably find it helpful to re-read what I said ... is directly targetting pirate software.

Are they hosting pirated software on their site? Nope. So exactly what law are they breaking?

My God. I'm not actually self righeous at all... You lot will keep doing it because you feel it's your God given right.

Nope, no self righteousness there.

TRC said,
I don't know how much simpler I can make it. If something is against the law that's all that matters in a legal case.

That's not true. For example in America and many other western nations there is the concept of jury nullification where it is possible for a jury to decide—if you'll forgive the simplification—"the defendant is not guilty of an action worth of punishment regardless of how much evidence there is that he or she broke a law."

Such a ruling might be found in an assisted suicide case if the popular opinion of a nation shifts to "terminally ill people have a right to a dignified death assisted by a doctor". For real examples consider (UK) General Belgrano who leaked classified information to the media in clear violation of anti-sedition laws but was acquitted and (Canada) Dr. Morgentaler who performed abortions despite a ban on them - he was acquitted because the law was ruled to be unconstitutional.

You might feel that the law against smoking marijuana is wrong, but if you light one up you're still going to jail.

If you feel strongly enough that unjust laws must be opposed then serving time in prison is a risk worth taking. For example Jonathan Magbie who spent time in prison—and died there—for smoking marijuana to ease the pain of his ailment.

While I don't feel strongly enough about copyright law to spend time in prison, clearly there are some that do. I'll reserve putting my life on the line for issues I consider more important (religion and "security of person" are stand-out examples) and fight for copyright reform through less 'risky' political tools.

They're allowing pirates to steal stuff ... it's idiotic that anyone thinks there's any moral argument here. The law is sometimes wrong. In this case, if these pirates get away with it, the law will have failed.

I hate pirates who try and justify themselves.

If The Pirate Bay (they even take the joke out with their name) was a generic search engine ... fine. But it's geared purely to find pirated products.


Professor Roger Wallis would disagree with you. ;)

This isn't an easy black & white case, where a download is bad, etc. A place like TPB also tremendously increases the music exposure to customers, it's a ton of free advertising. But sure, a download with no purchase, or no extra visit to a concert, etc, that's bad. But the reports on how this affects the industry is... actually having suprisingly mixed results. Really.

Spirit Dave said,
Seems to me that you're arguing with me for the sake of it.

The Pirate Bay ... ahem ... you'd probably find it helpful to re-read what I said ... is directly targetting pirate software. It's purposely actively trying to facilitate the illegal download of pirated goods.

THAT's what I meant and you cannot compare Google to The Pirate Bay. It's like you going and buying 20 CD's from a store, coming home and finding out one was pirated. Big mistake on the stores part sure, but they're not actively trying to sell you pirate stuff. The Pirate Bay is the equivalent of you going to a car boot sale and buying ALL pirate CD's from a dodgy guy out of the boot of his car.

My God. I'm not actually self righeous at all... I've used pirate stuff in the past etc and have downloaded music ... like every last one of you lot. Difference is, I don't try and justify it. I know it's bang out of order and I don't do it anymore. You lot will keep doing it because you feel it's your God given right.

Kind of hard to be illegal when NOTHING IS ON THEIR SERVERS. You CAN compare it to Google and doing a Google search will link you to much more pirated software than torrents. Hell, may as well sue Bram Cohen while you are at it since he invented torrents.

Companies should be going after the people download illegally...not the company hosting a search engine. And part of the big problem is that NO ONE HAS DEFINED WHAT PIRACY EXACTLY IS AND WHAT IS LEGAL. I mean, some say its legal to rip music for CDs you bought...others say its illegal. Unless there is a clear guideline of the rules and what is and is not legal, then nothing is going to be resolved.

Oh, and I am not trying to justify anything so please, please, stop putting words in my mouth. I am just tired of large corporations going after the little guy for stupid reasons. They are doing nothing illegal and I hope they win.

No-one here hardly understands the law, please go read several books and study it before you try and have too much of an opinion on how "the law" works (as it is applied in most developed countries).

Laws ARE BASED ON MORALS, please stop saying it is not - especially those that are criminal cases involving juries. The jury can decide someone as not guilty even if they break a specific law. The people are saying other people do not understand that it has nothing to do with morals are clueless.

In some countries Churches used to be the "courts", and applied the morals of the church. Also current law is stemmed from this, and are also applied on the values and morals of the country. The fact laws are decided by people and are passed by groups means there is some moral/judgement implied. Its not a robot making random laws and enforcing them. How can laws have nothing to do with morals - saying that is completely idiotic.

Google etc. are not the same. Google link to a site which hosts a torrent file to download copyrighted materials - nowhere does google link directly to .torrents or other file downloads that are not related to being read directly by a browser. Google is also a generic search engine that scans everything, and its purpose is to make the entire internet accessible apart from illegal content which it removes from its indexing on request if its illegal.

TPB on the other hand hosts files that are intended to aid illegal file transfers. Its also a specific search engine filtering its own content - with no desire to filter illegal content.

If you want to know what law they are breaking its extremely simple...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accomplice

Any lawyer who failed to mention any of the above points is useless. If they are found "not guilty" its because the Jury decided they feel TPB owners did not morally do anything wrong... (not because they did not break the law). They are clearly an accomplice knowing what they are doing, and benefiting from it.

I just listed several differences between google and tpb, stop making the association. I also pointed out a law they have broken. I also explained why morals are more important than anything in law.

mmck said,
No-one here hardly understands the law, please go read several books and study it before you try and have too much of an opinion on how "the law" works (as it is applied in most developed countries).

Laws ARE BASED ON MORALS, please stop saying it is not

No, they're not. If they were things like porn would be illegal too. Everyone has different morals. Maybe you should take your own advice since you don't seem to understand how laws work. Also this case has nothing to do with theocracies so stop dragging religion and morals into it.

Spirit Dave said,
Seems to me that you're arguing with me for the sake of it.

The Pirate Bay ... ahem ... you'd probably find it helpful to re-read what I said ... is directly targetting pirate software. It's purposely actively trying to facilitate the illegal download of pirated goods.

THAT's what I meant and you cannot compare Google to The Pirate Bay. It's like you going and buying 20 CD's from a store, coming home and finding out one was pirated. Big mistake on the stores part sure, but they're not actively trying to sell you pirate stuff. The Pirate Bay is the equivalent of you going to a car boot sale and buying ALL pirate CD's from a dodgy guy out of the boot of his car.

My God. I'm not actually self righeous at all... I've used pirate stuff in the past etc and have downloaded music ... like every last one of you lot. Difference is, I don't try and justify it. I know it's bang out of order and I don't do it anymore. You lot will keep doing it because you feel it's your God given right.


The Pirate Bay is a search engine for .torrent files. They do not encourage pirating of software, nor do they host the content themselves. They don't govern what users put on their site. And it was actually discovered that 80% (not exaggerating) of the torrents on the site were not in violation of copyright laws. Google allows you more access to warez than The Pirate Bay does. I assure you, there are many legal uses of TPB. Many people will upload their own music to TPB to share it with other people. Bittorrent is an effective large scale file transfer protocol and you've got to take note that bittorrent isn't restricted to only pirated material.

I hate ignorant people like you. You don't know **** about what you're saying and don't think before you say it. I'll say it again: Google is as guilty of hosting links to copyrighted material as TPB. Infact more pirates use Google than they do Piratebay to search for their warez. Here, do a Google search of "Crysis keygen", you get thousands of results, 99% of which contain illegal warez. Now go ahead and do the same search on ThePirateBay.org. You get less than a full page of results, and half of which are unseeded. Now who's helping pirates again?

mmck said,
No-one here hardly understands the law, please go read several books and study it before you try and have too much of an opinion on how "the law" works (as it is applied in most developed countries).

Google etc. are not the same. Google link to a site which hosts a torrent file to download copyrighted materials - nowhere does google link directly to .torrents or other file downloads that are not related to being read directly by a browser. Google is also a generic search engine that scans everything, and its purpose is to make the entire internet accessible apart from illegal content which it removes from its indexing on request if its illegal.

TPB on the other hand hosts files that are intended to aid illegal file transfers. Its also a specific search engine filtering its own content - with no desire to filter illegal content.

Are you a lawyer or in the legal field? If not, then you dont know or understand what you are talking about either.

Google is the same damn thing and TPB DOES NOT HOST any files like you said they did. They have proven this and the prosecution made themselves look like asses when they tried to prove that TPB hosts files. The people being sued should be the people downloading the material, not the company providing as each engine.

The rest of your post was just laughable...if you are in the legal field, you need to go back to school.

TRC said,


No, they're not. If they were things like porn would be illegal too. Everyone has different morals. Maybe you should take your own advice since you don't seem to understand how laws work. Also this case has nothing to do with theocracies so stop dragging religion and morals into it.


Yet again, you show how clueless you are. Porn actually is illegal in some places (although the definition of porn can vary by location). For example, the sale of sex toys is illegal in many states in the southern US (my home state of Mississippi is one of them). Do you really think that morality has absolutely nothing to do with the law? If so, you are even more clueless than I imagine.

Pornography is legal in every state. I don't know the deal with the toys thing but I'm not surprised that backwards third world areas like North Korea or Mississippi would try to ban them. Sounds unconstitutional though and no doubt will be overturned by the courts.

In any case, what we're talking about here is people trying to say the Pirate Bay is guilty because what they're doing is "morally wrong". As someone already said there's no law against being immoral, despite what the Bible thumpers would like to believe. You show me one law Pirate Bay is breaking. Until then all this moral stuff is a bunch of pointless nonsense.

Jugalator said,

Professor Roger Wallis would disagree with you. ;)

This isn't an easy black & white case, where a download is bad, etc. A place like TPB also tremendously increases the music exposure to customers, it's a ton of free advertising. But sure, a download with no purchase, or no extra visit to a concert, etc, that's bad. But the reports on how this affects the industry is... actually having suprisingly mixed results. Really.

I'm not making an argument based on how it affects sales etc ... I'm simply stating that piracy is wrong, the pirate bay are actually making it easy to pirate ... sorry but whoever said filename:torrent etc in google is talking rubbish... 99% of computer users don't know how to do that kind of thing ... the pirate bay is making it exceptionally easy to do it. They're doing it specifically to give people the access to pirate software.

techbeck said,

Kind of hard to be illegal when NOTHING IS ON THEIR SERVERS. You CAN compare it to Google and doing a Google search will link you to much more pirated software than torrents. Hell, may as well sue Bram Cohen while you are at it since he invented torrents.

Companies should be going after the people download illegally...not the company hosting a search engine. And part of the big problem is that NO ONE HAS DEFINED WHAT PIRACY EXACTLY IS AND WHAT IS LEGAL. I mean, some say its legal to rip music for CDs you bought...others say its illegal. Unless there is a clear guideline of the rules and what is and is not legal, then nothing is going to be resolved.

Oh, and I am not trying to justify anything so please, please, stop putting words in my mouth. I am just tired of large corporations going after the little guy for stupid reasons. They are doing nothing illegal and I hope they win.

I didn't say there was anything on their servers. I said it's morally wrong. It IS morally wrong. You are wrong. And what are you bringing the ripping of CD's into it for? That's not the issue. I hardly think you burning your CD's to MP3's and listening to them yourself is the same as ripping a CD, throwing the MP3's online and then sharing them to the world via the torrents found via sites such as The Pirate Bay. Seriously man, stop spinning.

Recon415 said,


The Pirate Bay is a search engine for .torrent files. They do not encourage pirating of software, nor do they host the content themselves. They don't govern what users put on their site. And it was actually discovered that 80% (not exaggerating) of the torrents on the site were not in violation of copyright laws. Google allows you more access to warez than The Pirate Bay does. I assure you, there are many legal uses of TPB. Many people will upload their own music to TPB to share it with other people. Bittorrent is an effective large scale file transfer protocol and you've got to take note that bittorrent isn't restricted to only pirated material.

I hate ignorant people like you. You don't know **** about what you're saying and don't think before you say it. I'll say it again: Google is as guilty of hosting links to copyrighted material as TPB. Infact more pirates use Google than they do Piratebay to search for their warez. Here, do a Google search of "Crysis keygen", you get thousands of results, 99% of which contain illegal warez. Now go ahead and do the same search on ThePirateBay.org. You get less than a full page of results, and half of which are unseeded. Now who's helping pirates again?

Don't encourage the sharing of pirate software? The PIRATE bay? No? Seriously.... what the ? You just made me laugh a little. You appear to have missed the point.

Google 'My Bloody Valentine' and you get many many hits relating to legitimate sites with info for that movie.

Now search the same result in The Pirate Bay. What do you get? ANY legitimate sources? Errr ... no! It's designed clearly and purely to facilitate the ability to pirate digital downloads. THAT is a fact. The name, the search results and the simple fact that they wave it in everyone's faces makes it obvious.

Spirit Dave said,
I'm not making an argument based on how it affects sales etc ... I'm simply stating that piracy is wrong, the pirate bay are actually making it easy to pirate ... sorry but whoever said filename:torrent etc in google is talking rubbish... 99% of computer users don't know how to do that kind of thing ... the pirate bay is making it exceptionally easy to do it. They're doing it specifically to give people the access to pirate software.

Is there a law against making it easy to find something, even if that something might be illegal? Note I said might because there are plenty of legal files on torrents too. Answer, no. There is nothing illegal about the site period. Search engines, torrents, having a pirate tattoo...all perfectly legal despite any moral outrage it might cause you.

I didn't say there was anything on their servers. I said it's morally wrong. It IS morally wrong.

That's nice, but who cares. We're talking about a legal case here, and they aren't breaking any laws so as I said before give the moral stuff a rest.

PS: You can't impose your morals on others.

Wow, it looks as if just about everything has been thought out and mentioned here! I would like to take a moment and agree with Digix. Much of what is found on TPB can be found through search engines, such as Google. TRC mentioned that the "law is the law", I agree aswell. I must also agree with techbeck, technically speaking TPB is nothing more than a search engine, I could see if the content was actually hosted on servers that TPB controls, however this is not the case, therefore I see no case!

Spirit Dave said,
Don't encourage the sharing of pirate software? The PIRATE bay? No? Seriously.... what the ? You just made me laugh a little. You appear to have missed the point.

You evaded my point. What other legitimate (legally) proof can you provide that they directly promote pirating other than the name itself.

Spirit Dave said,
Google 'My Bloody Valentine' and you get many many hits relating to legitimate sites with info for that movie.

Now search the same result in The Pirate Bay. What do you get? ANY legitimate sources? Errr ... no! It's designed clearly and purely to facilitate the ability to pirate digital downloads. THAT is a fact. The name, the search results and the simple fact that they wave it in everyone's faces makes it obvious.

Well, uhm, first off, Google searches the web in its entirety. The Pirate Bay is a search engine for downloads. Now why don't you go to one of the Rapidshare search engines and search 'My Bloody Valentine'. You get more results linking to the movie than you would on TPB. Obviously no one would think any file sharing sites except torrent sites would have pirated material. Because pirates only use torrents, amiright?

Is Rapidshare directly responsible for what users are uploading? No.
Is The Pirate Bay directly responsible for what users are uploading? No.

Pirate Bay even removes torrents upon the copyright's owner requesting. They don't promote piracy, the users do.

Don't respond with another "Well, uhhh, the answer is right in front of you, uhh, the pirate bay yeah." Because legally, that doesn't count for ****, unless the name was "GET UR FREE MOVIES HERE" or along the lines of that. The name implies nothing. Pirate is a term with many meanings and doesn't directly mean "WAREZ R HERE! FREE GAMEZ". For all we know, they could have just named it that for ****s and giggles. If the legal system today was based off of assumption, we'd be back in 15th century England where if it looked like a duck, it must've been a duck.

TRC said,

No, they're not. If they were things like porn would be illegal too. Everyone has different morals. Maybe you should take your own advice since you don't seem to understand how laws work. Also this case has nothing to do with theocracies so stop dragging religion and morals into it.

If you continued to read...

"The fact laws are decided by people and are passed by groups means there is some moral/judgement implied. Its not a robot making random laws and enforcing them. How can laws have nothing to do with morals - saying that is completely idiotic."

Im not saying everyone has to agree upon laws/morals, nor am I saying theocracies have anything to do with it. Whatever country you are from will have morals probably stemming far back to known religious texts and even further regardless if religion does not have an active role with it now. And these very morals that are commonly accepted and agreed upon in a country then become the laws. They do not come from anywhere else. However if we are not careful we will venture into philosophy now. The law is not the decision maker - the people are. In any case people decide if a law is broken, what the punishment should be (or possibly they should not have one even if they broke the law). Proving someone broke the law is not always enough to punish someone. The people (who base their opinion on morals) decide - everytime.

techbeck said,
Are you a lawyer or in the legal field? If not, then you dont know or understand what you are talking about either.

Google is the same damn thing and TPB DOES NOT HOST any files like you said they did. They have proven this and the prosecution made themselves look like asses when they tried to prove that TPB hosts files. The people being sued should be the people downloading the material, not the company providing as each engine.

The rest of your post was just laughable...if you are in the legal field, you need to go back to school.

Im not in the legal field at the moment however I do have legal training and have taken cases myself and won. However I do not think that really matters.

I said TPB host .torrent files (which they do don't they?), I didn't say they hosted the actual copyrighted material. So they directly link to copyrighted material and are specficially for .torrent files. Google on the other hand index everything, so no its clearly not the same on that point alone. Everything to TPB is submitted and could be checked it would be say a 1 person job? Google on the other hand search everything (again another important difference). The fact they have one association (searching content) does not make them the same thing - else on that logic an index in a book, or a library etc. could be classed the same as TPB. They are similar in purpose but are not exactly the same thing - far from it.

You are starting to sound like a defence lawyer (maybe if you are not one you should consider becoming one)... you try to pick one tiny fault with one thing (which doesnt always work), and then you try to disregard everything else without reason.