Unreal Engine 4.1 adds support for making Xbox One, PS4 and Linux-SteamOS games

In March, Epic Games announced the public release of Unreal Engine 4, allowing anyone to use and publish games with its latest engine and development tools for $19 a month, plus 5 percent of the revenues generated by any game made with those tools. Today, Epic released the first major update for Unreal Engine 4, adding support for several new game platforms.

The release of the new 4.1 version now allows subscribers to make games that can be published on Microsoft's Xbox One and Sony's PlayStation 4 consoles. Game developers must be registered to make titles for those consoles, but the good news is that includes teams that have signed up for Microsoft's ID@Xbox program, which allows for even the smallest of development groups to make games for the Xbox One. The PS4 support also allows developers to make games that will work with Sony's "Project Morpheus" VR helmet prototype.

Epic has also added a way to make games for Linux with Unreal Engine 4.1. That includes the Linux-based SteamOS that was developed by Valve and will be used inside a number of Steam Machine PCs that will be released later this year. In addition to the new platform support, Unreal Engine 4.1 includes some new content, including all of the assets for its Elemental demo.

As we have previously reported, Unreal Engine 4 already supports making games for the PC, Mac, iOS, Android, HTML5, and the Oculus Rift VR device. However, the company has already said that support for Windows Phone games is still a long way from being completed.

Source: Epic Games | Image via Epic Games

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Linux might have bright future if they refine the entire UI to be as clean as OS X. The current UI lack the WOW factor and it's crucial to attract average consumer by using these strategy because people love something different and work out of the box.

Gnome 2 (or 3 set in fallback mode) looks very similar to OSX. The toolbar thing at the bottom can be easily configured to work identical to OSX. And there's plenty of OSX theme's for Gnome.

That was designed for unsupported GPU but still it need more than that to achieve a level of simplicity because most consumer won't want to mess around with the OS. It's the only way if linux ever want to become a major player in the market.

Yeah, they tried. It's why there's so many countless of distro's.
Ubuntu is decent for average consumers, but IMO they make some stupid decisions and act like they do all the work of maintaining Ubuntu while most of it comes from the work of Debian. Which I rarely see being credited.

OEMs, Nvidia/AMD and such all tried (or still try) participating with Linux. But it hasn't helped a lot.

Master of Earth said,
Linux might have bright future if they refine the entire UI to be as clean as OS X. The current UI lack the WOW factor and it's crucial to attract average consumer by using these strategy because people love something different and work out of the box.

You should take a look at the desktop Linux thread. There are some very nice looking setups. And don't forget beauty is subjective. What you think looks good might not be what the next guy does. That's the beauty of GNU/Linux and FOSS. You can completely customise it with vast array of different desktop environments, window managers, compositors, eyecandy, launchers, monitors, etc. Far and above anything any other OS allows.

simplezz said,
That's the beauty of GNU/Linux and FOSS. You can completely customise it with vast array of different desktop environments, window managers, compositors, eyecandy, launchers, monitors, etc. Far and above anything any other OS allows.

Huh. One of my test systems here is Windows with KDE as a desktop environment (replacing Explorer as is shell), has a third party dock on top too, just because (non-KDE), another third party launcher running in the background that's activated via a hotkey, Rainmeter as a system monitor, etc etc. Doesn't look anything like Windows at all. Guess that's the beauty of Microsoft Windows and FOSS too eh?

Nice to see that support for Linux gaming is starting to grow more and more, and it's also nice to see Epic really pushing the engine to make it truly available to everyone on all platforms.

Full support for Linux gaming in the industry would be epic. Lack of Linux support is what has kept Windows so strong in OS market. I believe Microsoft needs some stiff competition in order to keep them on their toes. During the Vista days and early Windows 8, the transition to Linux would have been massive.

JHBrown said,
Full support for Linux gaming in the industry would be epic. Lack of Linux support is what has kept Windows so strong in OS market. I believe Microsoft needs some stiff competition in order to keep them on their toes. During the Vista days and early Windows 8, the transition to Linux would have been massive.

If you took every single game that runs on windows and made it playable on Linux Microsoft will still not have anything to worry about because Linux will still be less than 5% total OS marketshare.

Wrong. I know many people like me that only have windows because of Gaming. If it wasnt for Gaming, boom im gone. WIndows is more of a hassle then anything

Sikh said,
Wrong. I know many people like me that only have windows because of Gaming. If it wasnt for Gaming, boom im gone. WIndows is more of a hassle then anything

And thats the problem with people like you...you don't live in the real world.

If you think bringing all games to Linux would suddenly mean Linux becomes the world's most popular OS / gains more than 10% marketshare you are seriously delusional.

-Razorfold said,

And thats the problem with people like you...you don't live in the real world.

If you think bringing all games to Linux would suddenly mean Linux becomes the world's most popular OS / gains more than 10% marketshare you are seriously delusional.

Imagine what would happen if word got out that Linux is more secure than Windows. The associate at Best Buy would offer two similarly equipped computers. The average consumer would choose Linux if an Office suite was as good as Microsoft's Office, and it played the games their family needs. Better yet, the system could be sold cheaper. This is all hypothetical, but is something that could happen if Linux was better supported by hardware manufacturers.

Order_66 said,

If you took every single game that runs on windows and made it playable on Linux Microsoft will still not have anything to worry about because Linux will still be less than 5% total OS marketshare.

Where are you getting that 5% figure from?

Romero said,
All those "many people" still won't suddenly make Linux a major player on the desktop.
I think we are underestimating a few things. The average gamer is usually the "tech" in the family. I think we all know how powerful one person can be when it comes to influencing family and friends. Take me for instance. I've influenced well over 1000 people by myself from upgrading to the original Windows 8. Imagine just 1 million people like me who influence hundreds of other people. The numbers are a lot bigger than you think.

JHBrown said,
Imagine what would happen if word got out that Linux is more secure than Windows. The associate at Best Buy would offer two similarly equipped computers. The average consumer would choose Linux if an Office suite was as good as Microsoft's Office, and it played the games their family needs. Better yet, the system could be sold cheaper. This is all hypothetical, but is something that could happen if Linux was better supported by hardware manufacturers.

No they wouldn't. The average consumer may buy the cheaper one, then get home and be like "oh god wtf is this I have no idea what I'm doing" and then return it to Best Buy. Or they'd go "oh this looks ok, let me put in my cd for MS office...hmm its not working" time to return it.

It happened with Dell, it happened with HP and so on.

And influenced well over 1000 people yeah right. One of your usual ridiculous exaggerations you like to talk about so often?

-Razorfold said,

No they wouldn't. The average consumer may buy the cheaper one, then get home and be like "oh god wtf is this I have no idea what I'm doing" and then return it to Best Buy. Or they'd go "oh this looks ok, let me put in my cd for MS office...hmm its not working" time to return it.

It happened with Dell, it happened with HP and so on.

And influenced well over 1000 people yeah right. One of your usual ridiculous exaggerations you like to talk about so often?

Ridiculous exaggerations? Let's see, as a government employee who deals with say about 300 different contractors a week, I'd say 1000 people is actually on the low end. Through 18 years now in the Air Force, I have well over 400 friends. Let's see, the contact list in my phone lists 417 favorites(people I contact regularly) and 482 contacts. You do the math genius!

You act like anything that may be competitive for Microsoft is a bad thing. Wake up dude, Linux becoming popular would be awesome.

Edited by JHBrown, Apr 25 2014, 1:59am :

Ridiculous exaggerations? Let's see, as a government employee who deals with say about 300 different contractors a week, I'd say 1000 people is actually on the low end. Through 18 years now in the Air Force, I have well over 400 friends. Let's see, the contact list in my phone lists 417 favorites(people I contact regularly) and 482 contacts. You do the math genius!

Sure sure. And I have over 1000 contacts who I speak with regularly and I have 20 4k televisions that I just put down on my black card. Oh I also forgot I have 3 lamborghinis in my driveway and 5 ferraris in my underground garage.

You act like anything that may be competitive for Microsoft is a bad thing. Wake up dude, Linux becoming popular would be awesome.

I didn't say anything of the sort. I just said it would be delusional to think that the only thing keeping people on Windows are gamers. Gamers make up a rather small fraction of the market and just because they have friends doesn't mean that Windows will suddenly drop dead because gamers said so.

I would love for there to be more competition in the OS marketplace but gamers don't have any control over that. Not by a long shot.

-Razorfold said,

Sure sure. And I have over 1000 contacts who I speak with regularly and I have 20 4k televisions that I just put down on my black card. Oh I also forgot I have 3 lamborghinis in my driveway and 5 ferraris in my underground garage.


I didn't say anything of the sort. I just said it would be delusional to think that the only thing keeping people on Windows are gamers. Gamers make up a rather small fraction of the market and just because they have friends doesn't mean that Windows will suddenly drop dead because gamers said so.

I would love for there to be more competition in the OS marketplace but gamers don't have any control over that. Not by a long shot.

OK, this post confirms what I suspected. I will not get into one of your childish arguments. 20 4K televisions?

JHBrown said,
OK, this post confirms what I suspected. I will not get into one of your childish arguments. 20 4K televisions?

Not that long ago you made a post on the main page about how you just went and bought 4x 4K televisions. And now you have so many contacts and friends too!

I also find it funny that you saw the "20 4k televisions" but not the "3 lamborghinis and 5 ferraris" :rofl:

JHBrown said,
I think we are underestimating a few things. The average gamer is usually the "tech" in the family. I think we all know how powerful one person can be when it comes to influencing family and friends. Take me for instance. I've influenced well over 1000 people by myself from upgrading to the original Windows 8. Imagine just 1 million people like me who influence hundreds of other people. The numbers are a lot bigger than you think.
Underestimating? Ha, not in the least bit. Yes, the gamer might be the "tech" person (I've seen many who a kid familiar with PCs would laugh at), but even if he is you see the others aren't (and of course when the gamer is a kid he has no purchasing power). And those others are not gonna use Linux. You say you've influenced >1000 people? Maybe, maybe not. (I have more people in my contacts list but doesn't mean every single one bought a PC based on my recommendation. If all your contacts did then clearly you know no "tech" people or else they wouldn't be so dependent on you.) Anyway, I've influenced a fair few in my time as well but I'm not gonna make any grandiose claims. I've actually tried my best to move people to Linux and guess what, I think in all this while less than 1% 'stuck'. No, you can wish all you want but I don't see the year of Linux dawning any time soon even with much better gaming support. Better to focus your efforts on mobile (gaming) where Linux variants and derivatives are already dominant and Windows is still a small player.

JHBrown said,
Where are you getting that 5% figure from?

Linux is currently sitting in the basement like it always has at 1.2% market share.

Romero said,
Underestimating? Ha, not in the least bit. Yes, the gamer might be the "tech" person (I've seen many who a kid familiar with PCs would laugh at), but even if he is you see the others aren't (and of course when the gamer is a kid he has no purchasing power). And those others are not gonna use Linux. You say you've influenced >1000 people? Maybe, maybe not. (I have more people in my contacts list but doesn't mean every single one bought a PC based on my recommendation. If all your contacts did then clearly you know no "tech" people or else they wouldn't be so dependent on you.) Anyway, I've influenced a fair few in my time as well but I'm not gonna make any grandiose claims. I've actually tried my best to move people to Linux and guess what, I think in all this while less than 1% 'stuck'. No, you can wish all you want but I don't see the year of Linux dawning any time soon even with much better gaming support.
Point taken. Thank you for a civilized response. I just stand by my original comment that better hardware support would definitely cut into Microsofts dominance. However, Razerfold believes that I said everyone will leave Windows.

Order_66 said,

Linux is currently sitting in the basement like it always has at 1.2% market share.

I believe more than 4% would jump over. However, I could be wrong. We may never know, but it would be great to find out.

JHBrown said,
Point taken. Thank you for a civilized response. I just stand by my original comment that better hardware support would definitely cut into Microsofts dominance. However, Razerfold believes that I said everyone will leave Windows.

I would love to see more people abandon windows for a different OS but it's just not going to happen for gaming or anything else.
Linux is far too complicated for the average user and OSX is far too expensive for the average user.

JHBrown said,
Point taken. Thank you for a civilized response. I just stand by my original comment that better hardware support would definitely cut into Microsofts dominance. However, Razerfold believes that I said everyone will leave Windows.

Except no you didn't. I clearly said if you think Linux would become dominant / get more than 10% marketshare you are delusional.

And then you made a post going "imagine what would happen" "you are underestimating" "the numbers are a lot bigger than you think"

So here I am saying that linux will become more popular with games but it won't gain anywhere near a massive marketshare like you think it would.

And then when Order_66 said 5%, you argued about that claiming he was underestimating and now you're going "oh I think more than 4% would jump over.

-Razorfold said,

Not that long ago you made a post on the main page about how you just went and bought 4x 4K televisions. And now you have so many contacts and friends too!

I also find it funny that you saw the "20 4k televisions" but not the "3 lamborghinis and 5 ferraris" :rofl:

Can you point me to that post. I have never said I bought 4 4K televisions. I'm guessing you mis-read yet another poster. Which seems to be common with you. Grown up man!

JHBrown said,
Can you point me to that post. I have never said I bought 20 4K televisions. I'm guessing you mis-read yet another poster.
He never said you bought 20 4K TVs either. Read his comment again.

Edit: I see you've now edited your post.

People don't use Windows 8 because it lacks a classical start menu. What do you think will happen when someone shows the Ubuntu?

Where is the bottom right start menu? Where is internet explorer? How do you run Word? I connected my camera why doesn't it work? Etc. Etc.

Operating Systems like Ubuntu are made by a few basement dwellers whereas Microsoft and Apple spend billions on researching UI elements.

Open / Secure / Free are words that mean nothing. Linux is Communism - it is the best thing ever when you don't know better.

Edited by _Alexander, Apr 25 2014, 1:08am :

-Razorfold said,

Except no you didn't. I clearly said if you think Linux would become dominant / get more than 10% marketshare you are delusional.

And then you made a post going "imagine what would happen" "you are underestimating" "the numbers are a lot bigger than you think"

So here I am saying that linux will become more popular with games but it won't gain anywhere near a massive marketshare like you think it would.

And then when Order_66 said 5%, you argued about that claiming he was underestimating and now you're going "oh I think more than 4% would jump over.

Same way you are entitled to your numbers, I am also. Yes I believe a bigger marketshare than you suspect. Ain't nothing wrong with that.

JHBrown said,
Can you point me to that post. I have never said I bought 20 4K televisions. I'm guessing you mis-read yet another poster. Which seems to be common with you.

Nope. Here you have me, Order_66 and Romero all agreeing with the fact that Linux would gain a massive popularity because of gamers. And then you have you...who's constantly arguing that it would.

As for the post it was a while back but you clearly said that you and your family picked up 4x 4k televisions (I think it was from Samsung? Can't remember the manufacturer) and you got a really really sweet deal on them.

Same way you are entitled to your numbers, I am also. Yes I believe a bigger marketshare than you suspect. Ain't nothing wrong with that.

And that's perfectly fine. But your 1000s of contacts and hundreds of friends aren't going to help Linux's marketshare.

I mean look at Windows 8. People hate it because the start menu changed. What do you think would happen if everything was different? The apps that they use won't work? Etc.

Linux's biggest problem is that there's far far far too many choices for everything. That's great for techies like you and me. But the average consumer? It's horrible.

-Razorfold said,

Nope. Here you have me, Order_66 and Romero all agreeing with the fact that Linux would gain a massive popularity because of gamers. And then you have you...who's constantly arguing that it would.

As for the post it was a while back but you clearly said that you and your family picked up 4x 4k televisions (I think it was from Samsung? Can't remember the manufacturer) and you got a really really sweet deal on them.

LOL! I have never bought 4 4k televisions. We upgraded from Vizios to the 8000 series but not 4k. Also, go into any Best Buy and tell them your are looking to upgrade a few TVs in your home and I'm sure you'll get a good deal also. I've mentioned numerous times that my brother is a GM at Best Buy.

_Alexander said,
People don't use Windows 8 because it lacks a classical start menu. What do you think will happen when someone shows the Ubuntu?

Where is the bottom right start menu? Where is internet explorer? How do you run Word? I connected my camera why doesn't it work? Etc. Etc.

Operating Systems like Ubuntu are made by a few basement dwellers whereas Microsoft and Apple spend billions on researching UI elements.

Open / Secure / Free are words that mean nothing. Linux is Communism - it is the best thing ever when you don't know better.

Come on now Alexander! Made for basement dwellers? We have programmers that are far from basement dwellers living on the beach in San Diego running both Windows, Linux, and Mac OSX.

Order_66 said,

If you took every single game that runs on windows and made it playable on Linux Microsoft will still not have anything to worry about because Linux will still be less than 5% total OS marketshare.

You clearly don't know how the PC market works. If OEM's decide to ship Linux on 50% of PC's sold tomorrow, guess what? Yeah that's right, Linux will get 50% marketshare. It's as simple as that.

Users don't select Windows, it's preinstalled by the OEM's. Microsoft's position is deceptively weak. It's at the mercy of hardware manufacturers and whatever they decide to preinstall. The fact that millions of people go out of their way to install GNU/Linux instead of Windows, says a lot about how unpopular Windows really is.

Sikh said,
WIndows is more of a hassle then anything

And Linux wouldn't be? With all the half arsed drivers and having to use the command line to configure anything. Uh, no thanks.

You clearly don't know how the PC market works. If OEM's decide to ship Linux on 50% of PC's sold tomorrow, guess what? Yeah that's right, Linux will get 50% marketshare. It's as simple as that.

No it isn't. Dell and HP both tried to add a linux desktop to their website. And it's not like it was hidden away in some deep bowels of the internet that nobody could find...it featured prominently on their desktop selection page. The specs were mostly on par with the Windows PCs of the time AND it was cheaper too.

Guess why they don't longer offer it (or don't offer it as prominently)? Oh it's because most people who bought it ended up returning it claiming it was defective and wouldn't run their software.

The fact that millions of people go out of their way to install GNU/Linux instead of Windows, says a lot about how unpopular Windows really is.

Go out of their way? Come on :rolleyes:

JHBrown said,
Come on now Alexander! Made for basement dwellers? We have programmers that are far from basement dwellers living on the beach in San Diego running both Windows, Linux, and Mac OSX.

The fact that you can get LAMP running on a Linux box has no influence on an average user. Or, like me, a Windows developer.

scorpian007 said,

And Linux wouldn't be? With all the half arsed drivers and having to use the command line to configure anything. Uh, no thanks.

I know more about Ubuntu command line prompt than Windows command line (and poweshell) prompt. The thing is I used Windows for at least ~14 years and Ubuntu for a few months. Windows is GUI based OS whereas Ubuntu is not.

I believe some people here are posting without reading the comments. As stated earlier, if Linux had the hardware support, which equals driver support, then yes Microsoft would lose quite a few users. Please don't post that Linux has no hardware or driver support. We know that. This is all hypothetical but could very well become reality.

Please don't post that Linux has no hardware or driver support. We know that.

Well it's a chicken and the egg problem. Linux needs driver support to gain users. OEMs need linux users before making supported hardware.

If OEMs can prove that Linux would make them a nice profit, they'll support it. But until that day comes they will continue to develop more for Windows.

---

One good thing Valve did is disassociate themselves slightly from Linux. Sure the SteamOS runs linux but they've basically re-invented it and made people think of it as a console that's separate from the geeky thing most people associate Linux with..if that makes any sense.

simplezz said,
You clearly don't know how the PC market works. If OEM's decide to ship Linux on 50% of PC's sold tomorrow, guess what? Yeah that's right, Linux will get 50% marketshare. It's as simple as that.

If you're willing to ignore the fact that OEM's have already tried that and it failed miserably, sure. (Never mind that's a silly thing to say.. 50% of PC's sold with Linux on it would obviously be a 50% market share, ignoring all the existing systems.. but you'd actually have to *sell* those systems first.)

The sad part is that it's *always* somebody else's fault why Linux is at the bottom. It's Microsoft's fault. It's the OEM's fault. It's everybody's else's fault. But this next thing will turn it all around and Windows will be out. The Vista debacle will do it. The Windows 8 debacle will surely do it. The demise of XP will do it. Steam on Linux will do it. The Unity engine on Linux will do it. And yet... no. Still at 1-4% depending on who you look at. Steam's percentages have consistently gone down each and every month without fail. But who knows, maybe now it's the Unreal engine that will do it.

-Razorfold said,

No it isn't. Dell and HP both tried to add a linux desktop to their website. And it's not like it was hidden away in some deep bowels of the internet that nobody could find...it featured prominently on their desktop selection page.

I tried to buy one from Dell when they first started doing Linux PC's. First of all I had trouble finding the page, then when I went to select the OS, it only had Windows. That was the UK site. I even rang up, and nobody had a clue what I was talking about. I gave up after that. But I did complain in the idea storm comments. So yes, they didn't make it easy. In fact, they make Windows the default everywhere. And Microsoft pays them all to advertise "We recommend Windows 8" on their sites.

Most people will just accept the defaults, which is always Windows. Desktop OS marketshare is almost exclusively determined by OEM preinstalls. Unfortunately, Microsoft puts a lot of pressure on them to allow Windows only.

-Razorfold said,

Go out of their way? Come on :rolleyes:

Well it's certainly not a two minute job. Nor is it for the average non-technical user. Thus why, Linux currently has a small marketshare.

Max Norris said,

If you're willing to ignore the fact that OEM's have already tried that and it failed miserably, sure. (Never mind that's a silly thing to say.. 50% of PC's sold with Linux on it would obviously be a 50% market share, ignoring all the existing systems.. but you'd actually have to *sell* those systems first.)

The sad part is that it's *always* somebody else's fault why Linux is at the bottom. It's Microsoft's fault. It's the OEM's fault. It's everybody's else's fault. But this next thing will turn it all around and Windows will be out. The Vista debacle will do it. The Windows 8 debacle will surely do it. The demise of XP will do it. Steam on Linux will do it. The Unity engine on Linux will do it. And yet... no. Still at 1-4% depending on who you look at. Steam's percentages have consistently gone down each and every month without fail. But who knows, maybe now it's the Unreal engine that will do it.

Max, you are failing to realize that when OEM's tried that a few years back, the hardware support and gaming support was and is still non existent. We are talking about if Windows and Linux were on the same playing field. Why are you comparing the past that had basically no support, to the future that could have the same support?

JHBrown said,
Max, you are failing to realize that when OEM's tried that a few years back, the hardware support and gaming support was and is still non existent. We are talking about if Windows and Linux were on the same playing field. Why are you comparing the past that had basically no support, to the future that could have the same support?

Past? How about now? There's Linux machines available *now*. And there is support *now*.. from both hardware and software vendors. There's OEM's selling Linux boxes. Video card manufacturers obviously support it. A few of the major game engines support it, never mind a fair number of indies. What's the problem now?

Max Norris said,

Past? How about now? There's Linux machines available *now*. And there is support *now*.. from both hardware and software vendors. There's OEM's selling Linux boxes. Video card manufacturers obviously support it. A few of the major game engines support it, never mind a fair number of indies. What's the problem now?
It is no where near the same playing field.

-Razorfold said,

OEMs need linux users before making supported hardware.

ChromeOS proves that's not the case. All OEM's need to do is push Linux distros equally to Windows, and the market will open up, as it has done with ChromeOS.

-Razorfold said,

If OEMs can prove that Linux would make them a nice profit, they'll support it. But until that day comes they will continue to develop more for Windows.

ChromeOS and Android are chipping away at Microsoft every year. It's still a shame that OEM's don't ship traditional distros like Ubuntu, Mint, etc though.

-Razorfold said,

One good thing Valve did is disassociate themselves slightly from Linux.

No they didn't. It's very easy to access the gnome desktop running underneath.

-Razorfold said,

Sure the SteamOS runs linux but they've basically re-invented it

Hardly. Valve forked their own compositor and optimised the kernel, but it's all FOSS code running on it.
-Razorfold said,

and made people think of it as a console that's separate from the geeky thing most people associate Linux with..if that makes any sense.

Well that's what it's designed to compete against - Xbox and PS4. I imagine it'll be a hit when it's finally released. All the benefits of the PC, without Microsoft's paywall.

No they didn't. It's very easy to access the gnome desktop running underneath.

Hardly. Valve forked their own compositor and optimised the kernel, but it's all FOSS code running on it.

Well that's what it's designed to compete against - Xbox and PS4. I imagine it'll be a hit when it's finally released. All the benefits of the PC, without Microsoft's paywall.

But that's not what I'm talking about which is why I used the word "disassociate". Sure you can do all of that but if SteamOS becomes popular the average consumer isn't going to look at it and go "Wow Linux"...they'll think of SteamOS as a separate entity.

Think of it like this. Android is basically Linux but does the average consumer think of it like that? No. They think of it as Android.

-Razorfold said,

But that's not what I'm talking about which is why I used the word "disassociate".

Valves' made it very clear that Linux is at the heart of SteamOS. See Gabe Newel's speeches if you don't believe me.

-Razorfold said,

Sure you can do all of that but if SteamOS becomes popular the average consumer isn't going to look at it and go "Wow Linux"...they'll think of SteamOS as a separate entity.

Most serious gamers have some level of technical knowledge. Enough to know what's running underneath. And even if they don't, what does it matter. Every game that runs on SteamOS will run on desktop Linux. I think that's brilliant.

-Razorfold said,

Think of it like this. Android is basically Linux but does the average consumer think of it like that? No. They think of it as Android.

Android is nothing like SteamOS. It's not based on a traditional distro like SteamOS is (Debian). Games that run on Android won't run natively on Linux distros without some kind of emulator. Whereas SteamOS games run on every distro.

I'm going to repeat it for the third time now. The average consumer won't think of Linux when they see SteamOS or Android. They'll think of SteamOS and Android as if they are completely separate entities.

They aren't going to use the words "Oh I game on linux". They'll use the words "I game on SteamOS". That's the point I was making. And I said that it would be a good thing because people will associate it with Valve, not with Debian.

What people perceive of your product is huge. Linux still has the stigma, regardless of factuality or not, of being a geek thing, too difficult, oh it sounds stupid etc etc. Look at your example of ChromeOS. You think most people who use that know it's linux? No they think its something new that Google created and they associate it with a product they already know and like...which is Chrome. Valve essentially did exactly the same thing.

Before prematurely celebrating let's first see how many actually end up using Steam OS. There's a reason a fair number of the Steam Machine OEMs plan to dual boot Windows.

Edited by Romero, Apr 25 2014, 8:10am :

Haha love the Linux vs Windows convo's, especially when it comes to security and such.

People seem to forget that the most secure OS is the one that's been trialed the most.
You can't have a secure OS if the security rarely gest challenged.

And if people an masse move to Linux, guess where the malware, virusses and social engineering writers start getting comfortable with.

Shadowzz said,

People seem to forget that the most secure OS is the one that's been trialed the most.

No, the most secure, as in number of real threats (malware, viruses, rootkits, keyloggers, botnets, etc) is the OS where all software comes from peer reviewed repositories. That's why GNU/Linux distros have no malware, viruses, etc.

Windows is the most insecure OS in the world not because it hasn't been bombarded with threats or 'trialed'[SIC] as you call it , but because its software is installed from arbitrary locations, such as random websites. Vista+ copied the unix security model, but it still wasn't enough. The only way Windows can have a modicum of security, is if all software installation goes through the Windows app store. Admittedly Microsoft is moving in the right direction there.

Shadowzz said,

You can't have a secure OS if the security rarely gest challenged.

As can be seen with Windows/IE, zero day exploits happen on a monthly basis. This will never change. They'll always be more exploits to discover, so your argument is incorrect.

Again, the best way to secure a system is by limiting what can be run on it or in the software case, the sources from which programs can obtained. Sandboxing, App stores, and peer reviewed repositories are the only ways to do that.

Shadowzz said,

And if people an masse move to Linux, guess where the malware, virusses and social engineering writers start getting comfortable with.

See above. It's a common fallacy to believe that would be the case. Why hasn't iOS got lots of malware and viruses? Because the only source of software is the curated App store. The same logic applies to Linux and its repositories.

simplezz said,
No, the most secure, as in number of real threats (malware, viruses, rootkits, keyloggers, botnets, etc) is the OS where all software comes from peer reviewed repositories. That's why GNU/Linux distros have no malware, viruses, etc.

Well they *do* have malware, but it's primarily targeted at servers as that's where the majority of Linux usage is. On the user side of things, sure, it's quite rare, for now. I'd bet that if SteamOS takes off that's going to change drastically once people start looking for pirate Linux games, etc. At the moment there really isn't much outside of the repository to begin with, and nobody's made much effort on the gullibility factor yet.. there's absolutely nothing stopping malware from running if you can trick a user into doing something they shouldn't do.. there's no magical barrier for that.. it's just nobody's bothered to go after that small user base.

simplezz said,
As can be seen with Windows/IE, zero day exploits happen on a monthly basis. This will never change. They'll always be more exploits to discover, so your argument is incorrect.

Same can be said for any operating system. Even Linux. Has quite a long list of vulnerabilities too, some that go for years until being discovered. No better there.

simplezz said,
Again, the best way to secure a system is by limiting what can be run on it or in the software case, the sources from which programs can obtained. Sandboxing, App stores, and peer reviewed repositories are the only ways to do that.

So in other words, a walled garden? I'm sure that'll be ok for some, but personally I don't much care to be told what I am and am not allowed to use. I'll agree with sandboxes though, Windows has a few excellent tools just for that.

Razorfold: Did I specifically say it would all of a sudden make linux the most popular OS? NO... The typical gamer is not a MORON when it comes to computer use. So there would be many more GAMERS who would move over to linux. The benefits linux has is amazing versus windows. Yes people will still use windows and it'll still be 50%+ of the marketshare, but since microsoft has pissed consumers off with windows 8, a lot of consumers are looking at just getting what they want done, done. Consumers don't know android is linux, but as long as its user friendly, they don't care. Once linux gets enough eyes on it, we will see more consumer friendly builds but mainly KB on it. So much knowledge base that any consumer will not a problem moving to a linux computer as long as they understood "control panel is not system manager" and etc.

You need to open your eyes a little more. Linux is a huge benefit. I would rather game on linux and not have to worry about AV blocking me, random blue screens, etc.

The typical gamer is actually, a moron. Knowing very little to nothing about any other then installing and running the game. Which with steam and origin has become so simple, anyone can do it.

Sikh said,
Razorfold: Did I specifically say it would all of a sudden make linux the most popular OS? NO... The typical gamer is not a MORON when it comes to computer use.

Um the typical gamer isn't the person you think they are. Which is why I said, you people don't live in the real world.

You need to open your eyes a little more. Linux is a huge benefit. I would rather game on linux and not have to worry about AV blocking me, random blue screens, etc.

Shocking how I've been gaming on Windows since the 90s and I've never had an AV block me, and ever since Vista I've never had random blue screens. What exactly are you doing to get random blue screens on Vista, 7 or 8? Because the last time I even saw a blue screen was while using beta versions of Vista.

Gamers that build there computers? PC Gamers aren't like console gamers who buy computers and just play games. Yes those people exist, but the majority of the PC Gaming community has built there own computer and has an understanding of how things work. Most of the people I've come across gaming know what the hell they are doing.

AV has blocked friends of mine left and right. Comodo, Kaspersky, Norton, McAfee, all of them. They all try to sandbox the launcher, or the game, or firewall blocks the rules. If we are talking about common "people" then this software is essential on windows, and for them to be able to know how to configure it to play games is not likely. SO yes AV does block games. If it doesn't for you, its because you know what you are doing.

BSOD's happen from both nvidia and ati drives. Ive had friends recently tell me how they are having blue screens with nvidia driver updates via geforce experience and sometimes just directly from the driver exe

Majority of gaming community plays BF4, CoD and such games. The majority of which, did not build their own PC. They barely know more parts than a GPU and CPU.

Shadowzz said,
Haha love the Linux vs Windows convo's, especially when it comes to security and such.

People seem to forget that the most secure OS is the one that's been trialed the most.
You can't have a secure OS if the security rarely gest challenged.

And if people an masse move to Linux, guess where the malware, virusses and social engineering writers start getting comfortable with.

Android is the shining example of this.

Sikh said,
Razorfold: Did I specifically say it would all of a sudden make linux the most popular OS? NO... The typical gamer is not a MORON when it comes to computer use. So there would be many more GAMERS who would move over to linux. The benefits linux has is amazing versus windows. Yes people will still use windows and it'll still be 50%+ of the marketshare, but since microsoft has pissed consumers off with windows 8, a lot of consumers are looking at just getting what they want done, done. Consumers don't know android is linux, but as long as its user friendly, they don't care. Once linux gets enough eyes on it, we will see more consumer friendly builds but mainly KB on it. So much knowledge base that any consumer will not a problem moving to a linux computer as long as they understood "control panel is not system manager" and etc.

You need to open your eyes a little more. Linux is a huge benefit. I would rather game on linux and not have to worry about AV blocking me, random blue screens, etc.


First, typical gamer does not use a computer but a console, phone, or tablet.

"The benefits linux has is amazing versus windows."
- such as? This thread has been on going for some time. All was heard is the same propaganda over and over again "Secure, Fee, Open Source"

SteamOS is a new though. But come on, you have to subset called gamer, out of that subset you have to be a PC gamer, out of that subset you need to use Steam, out of that subset you have nonetheless know, out of that subset you have be technologically advanced enough to understand, out of that subset you have to like Linux and alternative operating systems, out of that subset you have to think it has a future, out of that subset you have to succeed installing it, out of that subset you have to succeed in liking it enough to use it... TLDR: No one cares about SteamOS.

Edited by _Alexander, Apr 25 2014, 6:16pm :

Gamers that build there computers? PC Gamers aren't like console gamers who buy computers and just play games. Yes those people exist, but the majority of the PC Gaming community has built there own computer and has an understanding of how things work. Most of the people I've come across gaming know what the hell they are doing.

That is the biggest load of crap I've ever heard of. Who knew that if you can build your own PC, which takes nothing more than knowledge of what a screwdriver is you now know everything about computers.

My dad could build his own PC and he would still get confused if I suddenly swapped Windows with Linux and so on.

Oh and btw the typical gamer like you keep talking about? They don't build their own PCs.

AV has blocked friends of mine left and right. Comodo, Kaspersky, Norton, McAfee, all of them. They all try to sandbox the launcher, or the game, or firewall blocks the rules. If we are talking about common "people" then this software is essential on windows, and for them to be able to know how to configure it to play games is not likely. SO yes AV does block games. If it doesn't for you, its because you know what you are doing.

Maybe you need to tell them to stop using pieces of #### like McAfee, Norton, Comodo and "all of them" then?

I mean here is a perfect example against your point. Your friends (who I'm guessing built their own PC) are so confused on how to use an (albeit) #### AV and Firewall...but they'll be perfectly fine switching to a new OS. Sure.

BSOD's happen from both nvidia and ati drives. Ive had friends recently tell me how they are having blue screens with nvidia driver updates via geforce experience and sometimes just directly from the driver exe

And if those drivers existed on Linux won't they be subject to the same issues? Oh wait yes they will be, linux isn't going to suddenly make drivers magical without any issues whatsoever.

-Razorfold said,

That is the biggest load of crap I've ever heard of. Who knew that if you can build your own PC, which takes nothing more than knowledge of what a screwdriver is you now know everything about computers.

Actually he's right. If you build your own PC, you know what an OS is, and what options are available. I've yet to come across a clueless PC builder.

-Razorfold said,

My dad could build his own PC and he would still get confused if I suddenly swapped Windows with Linux and so on.

People who build their own PC's tend to be inquisitive and like to tweak things from my experience. Therefore, I imagine that they've at least seen a screenshot or played around with Linux a little bit.

Your "My Dad" comment is hypothetical. He might be able to build a PC, but has he ever? or will he ever? Someone who doesn't have the motivation to experiment isn't going to be inclined to try out different OS'.

-Razorfold said,

Maybe you need to tell them to stop using pieces of #### like McAfee, Norton, Comodo and "all of them" then?

Windows needs bloatware like Norton etc to survive the onslaught of malware, viruses, and rootkits they're exposed to on a daily basis thanks to its diseased ecosystem.

-Razorfold said,

And if those drivers existed on Linux won't they be subject to the same issues? Oh wait yes they will be, linux isn't going to suddenly make drivers magical without any issues whatsoever.

The problem with Windows drivers is that they're at mercy of hardware manufacturers and when and if they decide to provide support or updates. FOSS drivers can be updated very quickly by the community independent of the OEM's. That includes drivers for old hardware which are often left to rot.

People who build their own PC's tend to be inquisitive and like to tweak things from my experience. Therefore, I imagine that they've at least seen a screenshot or played around with Linux a little bit.

There are plenty of people who have built their own PCs and really know nothing more than what their friend or reddit.com/r/buildapc told them to do.

They might know what linux is, but that doesn't mean they're going to know how to use it, and it especially doesn't mean they're going to be even inclined to use it.

For most people it's "hey this works, why bother changing".

Windows needs bloatware like Norton etc to survive the onslaught of malware, viruses, and rootkits they're exposed to on a daily basis thanks to its diseased ecosystem.

No it does not. And it especially doesn't need crap like Norton and McAfee.

I mean look at Sikh's comment. My gamer friends (who apparently all build their own PCs) have to constantly deal with AVs and Firewalls and so on. And yet....I game and I don't. Maybe it's because I know what software to use and how to configure things?

So tell me how these people who are so confused by simple software like firewalls and AVs, will have no problem with switching over to a brand new OS with software they have never seen before.

The problem with Windows drivers is that they're at mercy of hardware manufacturers and when and if they decide to provide support or updates. FOSS drivers can be updated very quickly by the community independent of the OEM's. That includes drivers for old hardware which are often left to rot.

And most of those drivers are proprietary and require some bit of reverse engineering. And even when they are reverse engineered and modified to work on linux, they still don't get the performance they get on Windows.

You think nVidia, Intel and ATI are suddenly going to open source all their drivers and all their technologies? No of course not. Drivers will still be at the mercy of hardware manufacturers.

hahaha

Yeah its impossible to make FOSS drivers on Windows, no way people could ever do such....

MotionInJoy for one ;) (not FOSS but 3rd party, just wanna show there can be non official drivers)

Windows does not need Norton to survive, never heard of Windows 8 yet? Should look into its feature list.

And again, your gamer friend crowd must be severely limited, cause I know only of a few that build their own PC, and your right in one point, most that build their PC are aware of Linux and the sorts. But PC builders are a niche.

simplezz said,
Windows needs bloatware like Norton etc to survive the onslaught of malware, viruses, and rootkits they're exposed to on a daily basis thanks to its diseased ecosystem.

This again? If you use third party software you can get malware. On any OS, even Linux. (Which *has* happened multiple times.) The OS doesn't magically get malware out of thin air.. it's either exploiting vulnerabilities in the OS or software (again, Linux can't be pointing fingers here by any stretch of the imagination) or it's user error/unsafe practices. Got a few servers here running for a good number of years with zero resident protection and zero malware. So what? The only reason it's so prevalent in Windows is that there's so much software aside from what Microsoft provides out there. If and when Linux actually gets popular and publishers start selling programs in big numbers.. it'll have the exact same problem. The *only* saving grace it has is right now is that virtually nobody really cares at the moment. If SteamOS takes off, that will change quickly.

simplezz said,
The problem with Windows drivers is that they're at mercy of hardware manufacturers and when and if they decide to provide support or updates. FOSS drivers can be updated very quickly by the community independent of the OEM's. That includes drivers for old hardware which are often left to rot.

Erm you can write device drivers on Windows machines too. Weird that. Yes, you need to jump through a few hoops to actually install them (digitally signed), because you know, allowing anything and everything to have blind access to your kernel isn't such a hot idea and all. Security and all that versus "oh lets just install it, I'm sure there's no rootkit in there."

-Razorfold said,

And most of those drivers are proprietary

No. Most of the drivers on Linux are FOSS, not proprietary. You're talking about the small minority of binary blobs such as what Nvidia produces. Most of which have a FOSS alternative.

-Razorfold said,

and require some bit of reverse engineering.

A few do, but most of them are written based on specifications provided by an OEM. For example, AMD supplies the FOSS community with specs for the latest GPU's they produce. The nouveau driver, which is reverse engineered from the binary blob that Nvidia supplies is an exception to the rule, and not the standard.

-Razorfold said,

And even when they are reverse engineered and modified to work on linux, they still don't get the performance they get on Windows.

Anything that's reverse engineered is going to be worse off than the original, if only for the fact that it's a trial and error process. That's why the radeon FOSS driver is very good on most cards - because AMD gives the specs to the devs. In some cases it even exceeds the performance of the proprietary catalyst driver that AMD provides.

-Razorfold said,

You think nVidia, Intel and ATI are suddenly going to open source all their drivers and all their technologies? No of course not. Drivers will still be at the mercy of hardware manufacturers.

AMD has, as I stated above, opened up their GPU specs to the community. That's the reason why the radeon driver has improved so much, to the point that it's on par with the proprietary one in some cases. That's great news for everyone.

Shadowzz said,
hahaha
Yeah its impossible to make FOSS drivers on Windows, no way people could ever do such....

Good luck finding someone to convert the code from the Linux kernel to Windows user space.

Shadowzz said,

Windows does not need Norton to survive, never heard of Windows 8 yet? Should look into its feature list.

Oh you mean Windows Defender? I've seen so many Windows 8 machines compromised that I couldn't even count.

simplezz said,

Good luck finding someone to convert the code from the Linux kernel to Windows user space.

Wut? Good luck converting Windows kernel code to Linux user space.

Oh you mean Windows Defender? I've seen so many Windows 8 machines compromised that I couldn't even count.


Sure, It's my line of security and it even knows how to distinguish a genuine cracked steamdll from an infested one.
I download anything like the bricks for a house. So far it's doing just fine as an AV.

But I keep my system fully updated, did not disable UAC or the firewall/, am running EMET and rarely run anything as an admin.

simplezz said,

No. Most of the drivers on Linux are FOSS, not proprietary. You're talking about the small minority of binary blobs such as what Nvidia produces. Most of which have a FOSS alternative.

I was talking about things like nVidia drivers. They aren't going to make them Open Source, and especially not with all the proprietary technologies they have.

If linux becomes more and more popular you'll start to see the same happen to more drivers. Companies exist to make money, not to make people feel happy.

Oh you mean Windows Defender? I've seen so many Windows 8 machines compromised that I couldn't even count.

And at the end of the day that's the users fault, not the OSes. Unless the OS is completely locked down and requires specialized code to bypass that lockdown, the user will always find some way to screw that up.

Linux is not completely locked down. Sure it has a repository but you can still download and run "bigtits.deb".

-Razorfold said,

I was talking about things like nVidia drivers. They aren't going to make them Open Source, and especially not with all the proprietary technologies they have.

Nvidia doesn't need to open source their drivers. All they have to do is provide the GPU specs so kernel developers can make a proper FOSS driver, like what AMD does. In the end the blame lies with Nvidia.

-Razorfold said,

If linux becomes more and more popular you'll start to see the same happen to more drivers. Companies exist to make money, not to make people feel happy.

I for one won't accept a proprietary creep in my OS. It's bad enough having to use a gpu binary blob, let alone other devices. The community won't accept it, sorry. It's open or not at all. We don't want a situation like with Windows.

-Razorfold said,

And at the end of the day that's the users fault, not the OSes. Unless the OS is completely locked down and requires specialized code to bypass that lockdown, the user will always find some way to screw that up.

If the software sources aren't vetted, it's inevitable. Windows really needs a unified package manager.

-Razorfold said,

Linux is not completely locked down. Sure it has a repository but you can still download and run "bigtits.deb".

Not on my box. A deb file only works with certain package installers, and Arch doesn't support it (by default). And that's yet another reason why it's difficult to compromise Linux machines - heterogeneity. Very little can be assumed about a GNU/Linux system and the software on it.

Not on my box. A deb file only works with certain package installers, and Arch doesn't support it (by default). And that's yet another reason why it's difficult to compromise Linux machines - heterogeneity. Very little can be assumed about a GNU/Linux system and the software on it.

And you're not the average user. The average user will get their version of linux (assuming its popular enough to target) filled with malware just as much as they do now.

simplezz said,
The community won't accept it, sorry. It's open or not at all. We don't want a situation like with Windows.

Wait.. I thought we were hyping up how SteamOS (which sells a lot of closed source software) was a good thing? That kind of kicks that in the nuts doesn't it?

simplezz said,
And that's yet another reason why it's difficult to compromise Linux machines - heterogeneity. Very little can be assumed about a GNU/Linux system and the software on it.

Well it's probably a "good" thing then that it's so easy to figure out what's available on the system isn't it? I mean, if it were "difficult", you wouldn't have thousands of machines being hit up by Ebury/Cdorked/Calfbot for example.. and it's not even that particular about which *Nix it is as it hit BSD Unix too.. different distros, different *Nix's entirely, and still.. boned. That's just one recent example. It's not terribly hard to trash a system.. trick a user into doing something stupid and they're toast, simple as that.

Keep going. I like your enthusiasm.

They arent confused by the software. My point is it doesnt work like it should until you configure it. Your going to keep going on how windows is great and blah blah blah. But my point being is, STEAM OS is going to be something im looking forward to. Not only that, but I havent had one distro of linux that hasnt given me GREAT support for all of my nvidia cards. Ive never had a driver failure in linux.

Also, why do you keep assuming people wont understand linux? I know plenty of people who could get use to Lubuntu, Xubuntu, Kubuntu or Ubuntu. It would take a little work but it would happen. The reason linux isnt big yet is because the support isnt there by all parties. Those parties are OEMs, help desk, etc.

You can keep this argument going all you want. I can clearly see you dont understand the point we (jhbrown, simplez and I) are trying to make.

They arent confused by the software. My point is it doesnt work like it should until you configure it. Your going to keep going on how windows is great and blah blah blah. But my point being is, STEAM OS is going to be something im looking forward to. Not only that, but I havent had one distro of linux that hasnt given me GREAT support for all of my nvidia cards. Ive never had a driver failure in linux.

Amazing how I've never had to configure any AV or firewall then right? I've used windows defender since 7 and I've had 0 viruses, 0 malware, 0 trojans and so on. You can defend your computer pretty dam well just by using simple common sense. And like I and plenty of others have informed you, if Linux gains even something like 20% of the market, it will start becoming a target for malware and virus writers and then you'll have the same set of issues that Windows has. It's NOT the OS, it's the USER.

And the nVidia driver in linux is nowhere near as complex as the nvidia driver in Windows. You even have Linus Torvald saying that nvidia is singlehandedly the worst software company because of their support. ever As for driver failure? Like I already said, I've never had once since Vista either. But since it's nVidia I'm sure it happens to people everywhere considering how #### their drivers sometimes are.

Also, why do you keep assuming people wont understand linux? I know plenty of people who could get use to Lubuntu, Xubuntu, Kubuntu or Ubuntu. It would take a little work but it would happen. The reason linux isnt big yet is because the support isnt there by all parties. Those parties are OEMs, help desk, etc.

And there are millions of people who get confused with simple software or a start menu change. And you're expecting them to suddenly get completely used to a new OS with a different way of doing things.

Look at your example again. "Constantly have to keep configuring stuff to get games to work". No, no you don't unless you're retarded.

The reason linux isn't popular isn't ONLY because the suppot isn't there. It's because it's too confusing for the average user and I don't mean on how to use. The sheer amount of options ends up making it more of a hassle than it's worth. Those options are great for you and me, they aren't so great for most people. Which is why I said it's a good thing Valve went with the name SteamOS and associated it to a product people already know and like...instead of Debian 13 with Steam or something like that.

You can keep this argument going all you want. I can clearly see you dont understand the point we (jhbrown, simplez and I) are trying to make.

No I understand your point perfectly but you fail to see the real world. I already pointed out that SteamOS is a great start but the amount of people who will move over is minimal. Expecting it to be some sort of savior for linux is stupid.

And please point to where I said nobody would switch over to Linux. I've clearly stated multiple times that the majority of gamers will not switch over.

Im not a games developer but this seems like a great enhancement for what appeared to be a good engine and good value re: the 19 dollar sub.

We have not seen a single unreal 4 engine game so all this news isn't very exciting. You mean they can easily port all those non existent games to the xbone? I am so excited.

MeetJohnDoe said,
Are we ever going to see an Unreal 3?

Unreal 2 was awful, so perhaps not.

I'm more interested in an Unreal Tournament 4, myself, but that would depend on them updating the gameplay. I don't think standard deathmatch would hold up well these days.

virtorio said,
I'd love a new Unreal and a new Unreal Tournament, but with Epic being what it is now, it seems pretty unlikely.

Epic made no money on the last unreal tournament that's series is over just like Doom and Quake. Miss those days 1990s and 2000s online gaming!

I have pretty mixed feelings about Unreal Tournament. I was one of the games I loved the most, but also the game that triggered RSI, preventing me from using a mouse on my right hand. It was the result of so many hours of fun.

ACTIONpack said,

Epic made no money on the last unreal tournament that's series is over just like Doom and Quake. Miss those days 1990s and 2000s online gaming!

Double kill!
Multi kill!
Mega kill!
Ultra kill!
Monster kill!
L-L-Ludicrous kill!
Holy *Neowin Filter"!!!

Quake isn't over, QuakeLive is still a blast
Hell a few people are still on QW, Q2 and Q3A servers too but QuakeLive is really where it's at.

Shiranui said,

Double kill!
Multi kill!
Mega kill!
Ultra kill!
Monster kill!
L-L-Ludicrous kill!
Holy *Neowin Filter"!!!


Monster kill is the last one :) And its m-m-m-m-m monster kill

And it isn't Ludicrous kill, its just Ludicrous :)

yakumo said,
Quake isn't over, QuakeLive is still a blast
Hell a few people are still on QW, Q2 and Q3A servers too but QuakeLive is really where it's at.

There's still a ton of (semi) active Q3 based games too.

Shadowzz said,

Monster kill is the last one :) And its m-m-m-m-m monster kill

You sure? I remember the game screaming HOLY #### when you ramp up a good amount of kills without dying.

elenarie said,

You sure? I remember the game screaming HOLY #### when you ramp up a good amount of kills without dying.

difference between UT Gotye and UT2003/UT2004/UT2007(UT3)