Editorial

Why Windows 8 still isn't my idea

Looks pretty, still needs work.

So it's been a few days since the final version of Windows 8 was made available to select groups of people, and if you're like me (not liking the idea of the Start screen too much) you'll probably give it a go anyway, if you have access to it.

While I absolutely cannot fault the speed at which Windows 8 installs (around ten minutes for a clean install) and the setup options, there are still a few problems which deserve a mention, and possibly expose why it was a bad idea not to expand the beta test to a larger group of enthusiasts like me.

Am I annoyed that I wasn't in the beta test? You bet! When I tested Windows 7 I was able to submit reports either on Connect, or from the OS with the Feedback link, and I'm pretty sure quite a number of the issues I'll cover here would have been reported had a larger pool of testers been given the chance.

There was a feedback forum for the Release Preview (at this point it wasn't a beta anyway) but did you know about it?

So lets just dive in with a few glaring issues I've discovered with the final offering of Windows 8, which may or may not get patched over time.

Except you can't at this point.

Windows 8 comes with a short tutorial to educate users about changes to the desktop, and one that surprised me is the above example that shows a description of hot corners during setup. Although the mouse can be used during setup, it can't at this stage of the installation. So even though you're told about hot corners, you can't try it yourself. The whole thing appears to be a mere afterthought, offering no real world example of how it actually works.

So in this case, even the Windows 95 first run tutorial did a better job at telling the user about the drastic changes that had been made to the desktop from Windows 3 versions.

Modern app issues

The modern UI Mail app has a lot of potential, it's a great looking client but it fails in a few important areas:

  • How do you print an email? I learned you can by doing ctrl+p. There is no button choice in the right click taskbar, and I later learned the option is also available by opening the charms menu > devices > select printer > print. How is this helpful or even productive?
  • Composing a draft is always in full screen, and I have yet to find a way I can switch back to the Mail app inbox or folders view so I can reference other content. You have to save draft, close it, find your reference and then reopen the draft for editing again.
  • Links within the email. This really annoys me; any links in emails are forced opened in the "Modern app" version of your default browser, and since sessions aren't even shared between the desktop and Modern browsers, it just creates a real annoyance. You can't change this behavior. But you can for IE10 - Thanks Brandon

Messenger App.

Windows 8 would rather have you use the Messenger app, because it comes preinstalled and linked to your Microsoft ID if that's how you setup Windows 8. But, it doesn't even try to replace Windows Live Messenger.

Share? This app CAN'T share.

Apart from forcing you to full screen again, unless you snap it to the side of your screen, you can't share files like you can in Windows Live Messenger. Due to my discovering the way to print emails via the Charms menu, I figured the same Charms menu would allow me to share content over Messenger, nope. So right now, I'm logged in at two places at once. In the Messenger app, and also in Windows Live Messenger 2012, the latter at least allows file sharing and tabbed chats in window mode, on my desktop.

Other problems

You'll need to use this alot.

Default Programs.

It also appears that desktop applications can no longer register themselves as default (even if you want it) or certain file types too. The only way around this is to open the Control Panel (or Start screen) and search for Default Programs, wait for all your installed software to load and appear in the left pane, then select your preferred program and click the Set as default option. An added bonus is that you can set different file types to open in different applications, but Windows will keep reminding you that "there are other apps that can open this file type" as well.

The mess after installing programs.

It's also counter productive to have to manually right click every icon that gets put on the Start screen after a program is installed to remove them, one by one. Installing just a few (desktop) applications will soon fill up your Start screen with readme's, uninstall icons, and a bunch of other things that used to be hidden in the cascaded Start menu.

Click and miss.

How often have you gone down to the bottom left corner of the desktop to open the Start screen, and accidentally clicked on the Internet Explorer icon instead? The tiny little space on both sides of the taskbar have proven to be a major annoyance on the desktop. Sure, I can try to change my behavior by instead just using the Windows key, but the option to do it the old school way is there because it's needed, and is supposed to be helpful.

Which brings me to dual display annoyances, it takes patience to activate the Charms menu when you are on dual display with a mouse, because more often than not, you're already on the second display and your Charms menu has already disappeared. A little delay here would have helped us mouse users, but again this wasn't thought through enough, and I'm even starting to believe that the bulk of testing was done on touchscreens by this point anyway.

Another annoyance that doesn't take full advantage of dual displays, is that you cant snap a Modern app to the second screen and view another Modern app on the first one, they merge again on the same screen. So you are limited to one screen and a total of two Modern apps in view at any one time.

Those fancy new notification toasts that appear for a few seconds can't be modified to display anywhere but top right of the screen either. I also noticed that if the Mail app is opened while you're watching full screen video, they will just appear over the top of it anyway. This requires further testing, but so far this appears to be another thing that was missed during testing, and another annoyance that can't be modified other than disabling the alerts completely.

Gone, but not forgotten.

Windows Vista/7 Desktop Gadgets are pulled from Windows 8 as well, so there's no "at a glance" Clock or Weather when you're in a Modern app for dual display users. There is an unsupported way around this though which works really well.

The desktop is still there, so why remove the option to use these gadgets? A full screen weather app isn't going to be taking permanent residence on one of my screens any time soon! 

Conclusion

I've only just scratched the surface with some immediately obvious annoyances that people will experience out of the box, there are many more covered here by our members that include UI inconsistencies, as well as Microsoft programs that don't seem to follow suit as far as UI guidelines go.

I know I can learn to start using keyboard shortcuts, but I didn't have to with any previous Windows release.

So in conclusion, my opinion of Windows 8 hasn't changed much from when I first wrote about it back in February. I still believe that Microsoft has made a mistake by alienating traditional keyboard and mouse users without touch features, and I'm not alone either.

I'll just leave you with this comment that one of our members posted here:

Live from Microsoft Build conference 2014!

VP Windows Steven Sinofsky: What we discovered based on our telemetry data for users running Windows 8, 99.9% were using the Desktop App most of the time. This was really surprising! Get this, most of these are Tablet users!

User Experience President Julie Green: That's why, we are now making the Windows Desktop experience the default when you turn on your Windows 9 device. The Start Screen is now a hidden charm you call up with a swipe from the left or point your mouse to the left hand corner. So its out of your way only when you need it.

User Experience President Julie Green: We also made it possible for you to disable the little f**ker permanently if you want to. Oh my, did I just say little 'little f**ker'? Forgive me, I'm a bit nervous, btw, that's just a code name.

VP Windows Steven Sinofsky: We also removed Start Screen apps being the default for your media. You will now use the default apps for your Music, Pictures and Videos. Also, you can now access all Start Screen apps as windows in the desktop environment, you can now pin them to your Taskbar.

Humongous cheers and applause and standing ovation from crowd.

Julie burst into tears after being a nervous wreck through the entire demo.

11 months later, Windows 9 becomes the best selling operating system of all time, 100 million licenses in one month.

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While all the points in the OP are definitely valid, I find them no more annoying than issues with any other new OS rollout.

Initially perplexed, I am now quite comfortable with Windows 8. A lot of the discomfort seems to revolve around the new Start Screen and the lack of a traditional Start Button/Start Menu. This is a reasonable complaint, and takes some getting used to. Once adjusted, the experience has been quite nice. Semantic Zoom makes customizing the Start Screen a snap. The most important aspect of learning to live with this change is remembering that these two environments (Metro vs Desktop) can work together or separately. If you don't like Metro Apps, simply don't use them; they are all "lite" apps anyhow, "consumption" apps, lacking features contained in full-bodied desktop apps.

And the desktop is still there, with a much-improved Windows Explorer. The addition of Storage Spaces (similar to Drive Extender on the original WHS) and file versioning is simply awesome. It's like RAID for Dummies, so now anyone can use it. Plug in as many drives as you want, and it can just be added to the "pool". This alone is worth the upgrade in my book.

The Charms Bar seems awkward at first, but again, once you learn it, it's a snap. It negates the need for having a different menu in every Metro App. No matter which Metro App you're in, the charms bar holds your settings and search functions for that app. And by hitting "Settings," the control panel is right there.

It takes some getting used to. But so has every other edition of every operating system. Windows has always been a tinkerer's paradise, and Windows 8 is no different in that regard. If you're not willing to learn it, you're honestly no different that 75% of Windows users out there, who never bother to learn the intricacies of an OS, and end up calling the rest of us when something goes wrong.

To each their own, I say.

Now would be a brilliant time for regulators to come in and break Microsoft up into multiple smaller companies as was going to be done in the 90s.

Nobody is forced to use Metro Apps which means uninstall every Metro app. Not sure why Windows Store cannot be uninstalled, i would gladly do it. Now when you uninstall all Metro Apps you are left with big empty screen and Desktop Tile on it.

Too bad Windows 8 has broken UI, such a shame because of all Kernel Improvements. Microsoft really had a chance to make world winning OS if they had simple option to enable user if they want to run Modern UI or Aero. In my opinion Aero is more modern than Modern UI (Metro).

Staying on Windows 7 seems to be the best option until Microsoft sorts out Windows 8 with next major update.

Metro Screen and whole Metro concept brings 0 value to PC. I wish MS wants to admit that they did it because they want to win some Tablet/Smart Phone market and generate money by taking 30% of Windowst Store Sale. Windows 8 is about money and not about customers.

Unpinning those apps will still leave your Start screen with all the desktop apps you have installed. Unless you unpinned those as well.

The Store exists to help both customers and developers. It makes it easier for customers to find great apps, and to have high confidence that those apps cannot mess with their systems (run sandboxed, uninstall cleanly, etc). It helps developers (large and small) get their work in front of hundreds of millions of Windows users.

IRock77 said,
Nobody is forced to use Metro Apps which means uninstall every Metro app. Not sure why Windows Store cannot be uninstalled, i would gladly do it. Now when you uninstall all Metro Apps you are left with big empty screen and Desktop Tile on it.

Too bad Windows 8 has broken UI, such a shame because of all Kernel Improvements. Microsoft really had a chance to make world winning OS if they had simple option to enable user if they want to run Modern UI or Aero. In my opinion Aero is more modern than Modern UI (Metro).

Staying on Windows 7 seems to be the best option until Microsoft sorts out Windows 8 with next major update.

Metro Screen and whole Metro concept brings 0 value to PC. I wish MS wants to admit that they did it because they want to win some Tablet/Smart Phone market and generate money by taking 30% of Windowst Store Sale. Windows 8 is about money and not about customers.

Agreed. SP-1 will be the defining event--Windows-8 either gets fixed or it becomes VISTA-2. By getting "fixed," at the very minimum, it has to add the ability for users to choose to use the Windows-7 functionality that Windows-8 took away.

I must be missing something. On my desktop, I see no problem(s) with Windows 8 at all. I have shortcuts setup for all my main applications and I disabled most of the Metro stuff. It works very well for me.

este said,
I must be missing something. On my desktop, I see no problem(s) with Windows 8 at all. I have shortcuts setup for all my main applications and I disabled most of the Metro stuff. It works very well for me.

So hackin and modify it before you with some plesure could use it?
So indeed Microsoft did fail here


Windows should have left the desktop as windows 7 is.

Good article
Every day the shine (that only fanboys believe adorns Windows 8) is rubbed off.
It must *finally* be filtering back to MS that theyve completely cocked up.
Its a half baked, half assed OS for tablet users so they can facespace their 12-14 year old friends banality.
Bring me the head of Ballmer, its the only way to appease me.

LiquidCrystalMeth said,
Good article
Every day the shine (that only fanboys believe adorns Windows 8) is rubbed off.
It must *finally* be filtering back to MS that theyve completely cocked up.
Its a half baked, half assed OS for tablet users so they can facespace their 12-14 year old friends banality.
Bring me the head of Ballmer, its the only way to appease me.

Windows 8 is a transitional OS. There's no doubt it is/will be rough at first, but for a transitional OS, it runs fast and smooth, and retains years of compatibility. Windows 9 will be even better.

What a stupid waste of time editorial.

Title should read "I own Neowin, I don't like Windows 8, read all about it."

How about presenting both sides of the debate, what about your members opinions? How about looking at a review of what the tech-media have to say about it? Neowin is rapidly becoming a Modern UI Lovers vs Haters forum and the kind of journalism Mr Parker presents here does nothing to help this. You want more people spending time on the site and buying subscriptions? Stop dropping to this lowly level of reporting and present balanced articles and something people actually want to read.

jamieakers said,
What a stupid waste of time editorial.

Title should read "I own Neowin, I don't like Windows 8, read all about it."

How about presenting both sides of the debate, what about your members opinions? How about looking at a review of what the tech-media have to say about it? Neowin is rapidly becoming a Modern UI Lovers vs Haters forum and the kind of journalism Mr Parker presents here does nothing to help this. You want more people spending time on the site and buying subscriptions? Stop dropping to this lowly level of reporting and present balanced articles and something people actually want to read.


yet youre here posting a comment...

the fact is, he owns the site and can do what he wants. you dont have to agree with it; that's why it's an Editorial. other writers contribute too.

The members' opinions are all over Neowin - countless threads on Windows 8

The thing i like the most here is that this is brought up to the front page etc
Its nice to see both sides of the Win 8 story is being told.

In a sick way I'm kinda happy to see MORE problems arise from Win 8
i have to be honest here lol
But on the other hand bringing awareness (complaining/whining as many of you put it)
should help get your windows 8 issues fixed so guys can enjoy using it.
Have fun with it just don't expect every else to

Is there any "uninstall" option for Metro Apps at one place? I don't know why they decided not to list those under the usual remove programs. Instead you've to right click them in start menu and uninstall.

There must be many changes under the hood I suppose, its faster than Windows 7 on my years old laptop but a few changes they did, which were perfectly well in Windows 7 are just plain annoying.

Connections view for example.

It's a mess (on the Desktop), but I do understand the big picture.

MS wants a tablet offering that will blow the iPad out of the water. And this is it; it feels a lot more mature than an iPad, it's an actual OS and swiping to access OS functions works beautifully.

However, releasing it JUST as a somewhat improved tablet OS (even if people would agree it's an iPad killer) then there's still the major issue of not having the large number of mature apps for it, meaning it will likely fail even while being superior.

Now, by bolting it on to the tried and tested Desktop environment and label it the next version of Windows, the potential number of users vastly increases, making it a lot more attractive to app developers. This is the ONLY way that enough credible apps can come about for the ecosystem.

Yes, it means pitching a Frankenstein monster at more traditional Windows users (business primarily), but you know what? Businesses would have skipped 8 ANYWAY because 7 is such a good OS. Just a slightly improved Win 7 is NOT enough to makes corporations upgrade anyway, so why bother?

Of course they're not saying it, but MS is just fine with corporations sitting this one out, while still creating enough app-momentum to get to a credible tablet (and mobile, and TV, and who knows what else) offering. Win 7 licensing money is just as green as Win 8.

So.. suck it up, cupcakes. I think Win 8 is reasonably usable on a desktop too, after you pin all the applications you need and change all the default apps to traditional desktop ones so you're no slammed back and forth every time you open an image or PDF from Outlook. But sticking with Win 7 is just fine, too; really. Meanwhile... try a Win 8 tablet.. it's magnificent. Yes the software needs improvement, but it truly is iPad + 1, a necessary next step for tablet devices.

Still I can remember, when windows XP was available I have installed it and stick to it, later installed Vista and rolled back with in a week, then installed 7 and still using it, two days back installed Windows 8 and know what... I don't think I can handle it even for a week.

Windows 8 is a huge mess. Cloud computing is a fricken joke, as is proved with MS and apple controlling what goes on their respective clouds. Microsofts total diregard for business and essentially all productivity users is just totally f****d logic. I dont what all the MS fanbois are going to say, because Windows 7 is still my favourite OS ever. What is really funny is, when i tried Windows 7 in customer preview, I KNEW it was going to be hugely successful.

Windows 8 , your fate is unlikely to be success. Since you screw up too much on the desktop UI.

The worst thing is that majority of monitor isn't touch screen.

Downloaded and installed the RTM from Technet, really didn't like the new interface, each to their own as others may like it, but it's not for me at all, looks like I will be sticking with Windows 7 for some years to come

Links within the email. This really annoys me; any links in emails are forced opened in the "Modern app" version of your default browser, and since sessions aren't even shared between the desktop and Modern browsers, it just creates a real annoyance. You can't change this behavior.

Just wanted to clarify this bit. With IE, you can change this, just go to go to Internet Options -> Programs and change "Choose how to open links" from the default of "Let Internet Explorer decide" to "Always open with Internet Explorer on the desktop."

The default setting will choose automatically based on where you were when you clicked the link.

Yes I know, but my default browser is Chrome, this will affect many others so I've pointed it out. As far as I know, only IE10 has this option.

According to Webalizer IE9 comes in 3rd on Neowin, IE10: 11th

Edit: IE10 is forced in IE9 mode atm.

Crappy article it is a shame such things are posted on the front page and BTW you realize new pcs that Win 8 comes installed on will most likely have a more in depth tutorial on how to use it's features.

I got it.

Why bother using a desktop computer or laptop? It seems a smart phone or tablet hooked up to a monitor would do just fine for most of the Windows 8 lovers on here.

Your welcome. Don't be mad.

@Steven Parker

Installing just a few (desktop) applications will soon fill up your Start screen with readme's, uninstall icons, and a bunch of other things that used to be hidden in the cascaded Start menu.

There is no such thing as a "cascaded Start menu" in Windows 7. I think you're mistaking this for "Program Groups" which Windows 8 also has.

bj55555 said,
@Steven Parker


There is no such thing as a "cascaded Start menu" in Windows 7. I think you're mistaking this for "Program Groups" which Windows 8 also has.

Also, Windows 8 will not automatically pin those sort of things (uninstallers, etc) to Start. Of course, some apps like Visual Studio install a bunch of associated tools which you may not want to have pinned, but it takes a couple seconds to right-click all of the ones you don't want and then click Unpin.

bj55555 said,
@Steven Parker


There is no such thing as a "cascaded Start menu" in Windows 7. I think you're mistaking this for "Program Groups" which Windows 8 also has.

Thats just another word for it tbh lol

Brandon Live said,

Also, Windows 8 will not automatically pin those sort of things (uninstallers, etc) to Start. Of course, some apps like Visual Studio install a bunch of associated tools which you may not want to have pinned, but it takes a couple seconds to right-click all of the ones you don't want and then click Unpin.

All of the desktop applications I installed added the "program group" (including links to uninstallers and readmes etc) to the Start screen. If this is better than hiding them in a program group, I respectfully disagree!

The "All Apps" screen looks like the sort of Windows 98 desktop my PC illiterate friends used to have!

Thank god for search, at least!

Neobond said,

All of the desktop applications I installed added the "program group" (including links to uninstallers and readmes etc) to the Start screen. If this is better than hiding them in a program group, I respectfully disagree!

The "All Apps" screen looks like the sort of Windows 98 desktop my PC illiterate friends used to have!

Thank god for search, at least!

But that's only to the All Apps view, and the idea is you shouldn't have to use that regularly. When you install a desktop app, the app itself should be pinned to Start, but the uninstaller and such should not.

All of the annoyances, nuisances, and inconsistencies are real. And mostly bother and are noticed by experienced users. The overwhelming majority that do nothing with their home PCs will never notice any of these things.

The people who do, experienced desktop users, are spending a whole lot of time on the Start Page, where they absolutely do not have to be much, at all, if they so choose.

I don't know what was dumber the complaint about not having Gadgets for a weather widget when Live Tiles obviously replace gadgets, the complaints about the apps which will be updated on a regular basis through the Win Store, or the delusional fantasy letter at the end.

Do some people not get that the Windows Store is going to be a huge success and profit machine for Microsoft? They're now taking 30% of every piece of software sold for Windows. Once Microsoft starts making billions of dollars off of that Windows Store do you actually think they are ever going to push people back to the desktop ever again? In fact I wouldn't be surprised if desktop development comes to a complete halt after this version of Windows. There is no monetary incentive to continue improving the desktop when the desktop only introduces viruses and equates to consumers downloading apps that Microsoft doesn't get paid for.

Here's what will really happen in Windows 9. Microsoft will institute a feature like Mac OS X "Gatekeeper" which defaults to not allowing the user to install apps that don't come from the Windows Store. Apple has already done this, why wouldn't Microsoft follow their lead? As no profit flows to MS from desktop app usage Microsoft will continue to expand the features and capabilities of the WinRT environment while further deprecating the desktop. All Office apps will be rewritten for WinRT with radial menus replacing the ribbon. Visual Studio SDK will offer developers essentially a checkbox to publish their app to Intel PC, ARM PC, Phone, or Xbox through the Windows Store.

Assuming most new hardware is touch-focused (mice, laptops, tablets, better touchpads) consumers will greatly prefer the Windows Store apps over the legacy desktop apps. 90% of legacy desktop apps are worthless on a touch screen (bad or no scrolling support, no pinch zooming support, hard to hit UI elements, etc.). Consumers will spend the vast majority of their time in the WinRT environment because all new hardware and software is being made with touch interfaces in mind.

Edited by Avatar Roku, Aug 19 2012, 5:56pm :

Avatar Roku said,
I don't know what was dumber the complaint about not having Gadgets for a weather widget when Live Tiles obviously replace gadgets, the complaints about the apps which will be updated on a regular basis through the Win Store, or the delusional fantasy letter at the end.

Do some people not get that the Windows Store is going to be a huge success and profit machine for Microsoft? They're now taking 30% of every piece of software sold for Windows. Once Microsoft starts making billions of dollars off of that Windows Store do you actually think they are ever going to push people back to the desktop ever again? In fact I wouldn't be surprised if desktop development comes to a complete halt after this version of Windows. There is no monetary incentive to continue improving the desktop when the desktop only introduces viruses and equates to consumers downloading apps that Microsoft doesn't get paid for.

Here's what will really happen in Windows 9. Microsoft will institute a feature like Mac OS X "Gatekeeper" which defaults to not allowing the user to install apps that don't come from the Windows Store. Apple has already done this, why wouldn't Microsoft follow their lead? As no profit flows to MS from desktop app usage Microsoft will continue to expand the features and capabilities of the WinRT environment while further deprecating the desktop. All Office apps will be rewritten for WinRT with radial menus replacing the ribbon. Visual Studio SDK will offer developers essentially a checkbox to publish their app to Intel PC, ARM PC, Phone, or Xbox through the Windows Store.

Assuming most new hardware is touch-focused (mice, laptops, tablets, better touchpads) consumers will greatly prefer the Windows Store apps over the legacy desktop apps. 90% of legacy desktop apps are worthless on a touch screen (bad or no scrolling support, no pinch zooming support, hard to hit UI elements, etc.). Consumers will spend the vast majority of their time in the WinRT environment because all new hardware and software is being made with touch interfaces in mind.

Gatekeeper? No. Sorry. That's not happening. Why? Too many legacy apps hanging around yet.

[quote=Avatar Roku said,]I don't know what was dumber the complaint about not having Gadgets for a weather widget when Live Tiles obviously replace gadgets, [/quote]

I don't entirely agree. Tiles can't do everything gadgets can, they can only update in specific limited ways, while a gadget is a little program on your desktop that is more free to do anything its creator imagines. The tradeoff is that tiles are a lot less likely to drain machine resources and battery life, or lengthen startup time. Personally I prefer having tiles and think most other people will as well, but I can see how some might miss gadgets (I think you can still enable them though?)

Do some people not get that the Windows Store is going to be a huge success and profit machine for Microsoft? They're now taking 30% of every piece of software sold for Windows. Once Microsoft starts making billions of dollars off of that Windows Store do you actually think they are ever going to push people back to the desktop ever again? In fact I wouldn't be surprised if desktop development comes to a complete halt after this version of Windows. There is no monetary incentive to continue improving the desktop when the desktop only introduces viruses and equates to consumers downloading apps that Microsoft doesn't get paid for.

Here's what will really happen in Windows 9. Microsoft will institute a feature like Mac OS X "Gatekeeper" which defaults to not allowing the user to install apps that don't come from the Windows Store. Apple has already done this, why wouldn't Microsoft follow their lead? As no profit flows to MS from desktop app usage Microsoft will continue to expand the features and capabilities of the WinRT environment while further deprecating the desktop. All Office apps will be rewritten for WinRT with radial menus replacing the ribbon. Visual Studio SDK will offer developers essentially a checkbox to publish their app to Intel PC, ARM PC, Phone, or Xbox through the Windows Store.

Assuming most new hardware is touch-focused (mice, laptops, tablets, better touchpads) consumers will greatly prefer the Windows Store apps over the legacy desktop apps. 90% of legacy desktop apps are worthless on a touch screen (bad or no scrolling support, no pinch zooming support, hard to hit UI elements, etc.). Consumers will spend the vast majority of their time in the WinRT environment because all new hardware and software is being made with touch interfaces in mind. [/quote]

I don't entirely agree. Tiles can't do everything gadgets can, they can only update in specific limited ways, while a gadget is a little program on your desktop that is more free to do anything its creator imagines. The tradeoff is that tiles are a lot less likely to drain machine resources and battery life, or lengthen startup time. Personally I prefer having tiles and think most other people will as well, but I can see how some might miss gadgets (I think you can still enable them though?)

Avatar Roku said,
Do some people not get that the Windows Store is going to be a huge success and profit machine for Microsoft? They're now taking 30% of every piece of software sold for Windows. Once Microsoft starts making billions of dollars off of that Windows Store do you actually think they are ever going to push people back to the desktop ever again?

The Windows store is revenue neutral for Microsoft. It won't be a profit machine, at least not directly. Its business purpose is to help sell Windows, Windows devices, and Microsoft services (subscription or ad-supported).


In fact I wouldn't be surprised if desktop development comes to a complete halt after this version of Windows. There is no monetary incentive to continue improving the desktop when the desktop only introduces viruses and equates to consumers downloading apps that Microsoft doesn't get paid for.

The incentive is that the desktop makes Windows more valuable to enthusiasts, information workers, businesses and developers. It also is where Office and Visual Studio run, which is software for which Microsoft does in fact get paid.


Here's what will really happen in Windows 9. Microsoft will institute a feature like Mac OS X "Gatekeeper" which defaults to not allowing the user to install apps that don't come from the Windows Store. Apple has already done this, why wouldn't Microsoft follow their lead?

Apple has also put desktop apps in their store, there's no fundamental reason Microsoft can't follow their lead in that way too, so even if your prediction comes to pass it doesn't necessarily say anything about the desktop UI model itself.

Assuming most new hardware is touch-focused (mice, laptops, tablets, better touchpads) consumers will greatly prefer the Windows Store apps over the legacy desktop apps. 90% of legacy desktop apps are worthless on a touch screen (bad or no scrolling support, no pinch zooming support, hard to hit UI elements, etc.). Consumers will spend the vast majority of their time in the WinRT environment because all new hardware and software is being made with touch interfaces in mind.

Yes more and more hardware and software will be touch based or support touch as an additional input method, but it won't replace the mouse and keyboard as those input methods have fundamental capabilities (precision, immediate commanding) that direct touch can't match.

Avatar Roku said,
Microsoft will institute a feature like Mac OS X "Gatekeeper" which defaults to not allowing the user to install apps that don't come from the Windows Store. Apple has already done this

No. Not on OS X, they haven't. The default is "Mac App Store and identified developers" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gatekeeper_(OS_X) ). The setting can also easily be circumvented or set to "Anywhere". Having said that, I don't see why MS wouldn't do the same thing. With respect to Metro apps they're already even more restrictive than Apple on OS X since generally no sideloading is allowed.

contextfree said,

The Windows store is revenue neutral for Microsoft. It won't be a profit machine, at least not directly. Its business purpose is to help sell Windows, Windows devices, and Microsoft services (subscription or ad-supported).

LOL. How can the Windows Store be "revenue neutral" for Microsoft? They take 30% of everything sold and supply ads for the free apps. Profit neutral maybe you could argue, but revenue neutral? No.



The incentive is that the desktop makes Windows more valuable to enthusiasts, information workers, businesses and developers. It also is where Office and Visual Studio run, which is software for which Microsoft does in fact get paid.

And these enthusiasts really have nowhere to go. The desktop won't disappear in Windows 9, Microsoft just isn't going to invest a lot of time and effort into developing the desktop anymore when it is impediment to WinRT revenue. It makes much more sense to invest time and effort into the WinRT environment that is generating tons of revenue through app sales and advertising in free apps.


Apple has also put desktop apps in their store, there's no fundamental reason Microsoft can't follow their lead in that way too, so even if your prediction comes to pass it doesn't necessarily say anything about the desktop UI model itself.

The Windows Store has desktop apps in the store sort of. It links you to the webpage to download the app. However users can't review the apps and they can't download them directly or get update notifications. I don't see desktop apps being popular in the Windows Store given their limitations compared to WinRT apps. It's just another way of making legacy apps feel like a second-class experience compared to WinRT. This seems like more of a temporary stop-gap before we transition to WinRT apps only.


Yes more and more hardware and software will be touch based or support touch as an additional input method, but it won't replace the mouse and keyboard as those input methods have fundamental capabilities (precision, immediate commanding) that direct touch can't match.

The mouse is going to evolve into a touch based device. Vizio PCs already ship with a touchpad instead of a mouse. The mouse will become a touch mouse. Most software development will be based around a touch-first design. There's always going to be need for precision pointing tools like a mouse or stylus, but ultimately most software will be designed with multi-touch interfaces in mind. Touchpads are finally going to be put to good use as multi-touch gesture interfaces beyond Windows 8.

CJEric said,

No. Not on OS X, they haven't. The default is "Mac App Store and identified developers" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gatekeeper_(OS_X) ). The setting can also easily be circumvented or set to "Anywhere". Having said that, I don't see why MS wouldn't do the same thing. With respect to Metro apps they're already even more restrictive than Apple on OS X since generally no sideloading is allowed.

The point is that if you go to website or download a program from your web browser Mac OS will stop you by default from installing the application in most cases. Sure you can turn the feature off if you choose or know how, but how many consumers will actually do this? Most will not. The result is that fewer people download and install applications provided over the Internet meaning there is even less incentive to develop these unofficial apps. It's a cycle that drives people into the app store model and away from the scary unsafe desktop. It's a method that both Apple and MS will employ to punish developers for not just publishing their app in the official app store.

FYI ...

The idea behind printing is there is a consistent way to print from within apps through the Devices charm, so once you learn that you should always know how to print with no need for a button.

It's not true that you can't change how links open in the mail app, it just depends on your browser settings. If you have your default browser set up to open links in desktop (in the desktop IE Internet Options -> Programs tab for example), they'll open that way from Mail too.

For default programs, the whole reason for the "there are new apps that can open this file type" popup is so you don't need to search Control Panel for Default Programs, you can just click on the popup and it takes you to a selection dialog directly. It only comes up once each time you open a file after installing a new app that can open that file type.

iron2000 said,
Seems like Windows 8 is an experimental version.
Kind of like Vista before it blossoms to 7.

That's why Win 8.1 is supposed to come afterwards.

I think that MS is throwing out this half-baked OS just because they want to catch-up tablets rush ASAP. They want one OS for everything but don't have time to polish and balance every nook and cranny. Since they probably don't expect enterprises for a huge move these years (they are adopting W7 at the time) it was a decision to bet on tablets totally. I really hope they will bring more effort and respect into old good desktop later on and find a balance between possibilities and usability for every platform. But I fear they could be obsessed with touch all over everywhere and will try to dismiss classic computing. Hope they won't otherwise it would be a suicide for MS at the next big upgrading cycle.

I'm really annoyed by the fact that desktop programs can't make themselves the default program for files, even if you want them to. Windows Media Player is the best example, it has a "Make Windows Media Player the default player for audio and video" option during setup, that does nothing! They literally have an option in one of the main windows programs, that is broken!

LightEco said,
I'm really annoyed by the fact that desktop programs can't make themselves the default program for files, even if you want them to. Windows Media Player is the best example, it has a "Make Windows Media Player the default player for audio and video" option during setup, that does nothing! They literally have an option in one of the main windows programs, that is broken!

The next time you open one of those files, Windows will offer to change the default program. Personally I find this way better (it's just as easy to switch the default handler to a newly installed app, but without newly installed apps randomly hijacking file associations).

Installing just a few (desktop) applications will soon fill up your Start screen with readme's, uninstall icons, and a bunch of other things that used to be hidden in the cascaded Start menu.

LOL, thats one of the most annoying things that windows 8 has!. Seems like this ppl dont believe that most of the ppl who actually uses windows is on a PRODUCTIVE ENVIRONMENT and NOT for ENTERTAINMENT. See? Why should be a desktop version and ANOTHER for tables and sh*t like that.

Edited by ThePitt, Aug 19 2012, 3:19pm :

ThePitt said,

LOL, thats one of the most annoying things that windows 8 has!. Seems like this ppl dont believe that most of the ppl who actually uses windows is on a PRODUCTIVE ENVIRONMENT and NOT for ENTERTAINMENT. See? Why should be a desktop version and ANOTHER for tables and sh*t like that.

The issue is with apps filling your start menu with crap, not Windows for not blocking it. It's like the adobe apps that just dump their shortcuts at the root of the start menu in Windows 7... it's highly annoying. App makers need to just place a single icon into the start menu (now the start screen) and have everything else linked to from within the app. Nobody needs help files or uninstall shortcuts there, there are other more specialised places to do those things.

I prefer this editorial view: http://www.theverge.com/2012/8...5/this-is-my-next-windows-8

At the end of the day, the apps are apps - not part of the OS, and they're things that can be updated or easily substituted with others. And you can unpin everything at once on the start screen, not one by one.

The desktop is still there, so why remove the option to use these gadgets?

Start screen tiles are obviously why. It's not as flexible, but they're a lot more consistent and easier for developers to use. I can't say I've ever, EVER missed the start button either. The very corners of the screen are scientifically proven the easiest points on the entire screen to hit.

~Johnny said,
Corners are easier than edges - edges only have infinite hit targets in one axis, corners have them in two

That's true. But like I said, the Metro command bar often doesn't even have an infinite edge. For some weird reason this doesn't appear to be consistent across apps.

What I was alluding to with the reference to contextual menus was the point directly beneath your cursor though, which is the easiest one to hit.

CJEric said,

That's true. But like I said, the Metro command bar often doesn't even have an infinite edge. For some weird reason this doesn't appear to be consistent across apps.

It's not really the bar that you're targeting, but the individual app commands. I guess unfortunately the hit target for those isn't really baked into the frameworks and is left for each developer to get right, which some do and some don't.

CJEric said,

There's actually one point that's easier to hit.

...which makes Metro's command bars so frustrating, because they replace contextual menus and often don't even take advantage of the rule of the infinite edge...

I agree, but it does have an advantage in that it makes it easier/simpler to multiselect by right-clicking (which would be too annoying if a context menu popped up every time you did it), instead of having to Ctrl-Click. It also simplifies learning the UI in that you have one single consistent concept/mechanism - "right click for app commands" - which takes the place of

1. menu bars
2. context menus
3. single selection
4. multi selection
5. having show/reveal UI modes/commands which many desktop apps have in different ways that you have to figure out for each app (double click ribbon tab? hit Alt? hit F11 for fullscreen? find a button somewhere? who knows?)

Note, I overall agree that the app bar feels like a step backwards for mouse, I'm just pointing out that there are also some advantages too.

How about all of the people who are so ****ed off about all of the missing features spend your time using the OS instead of looking for stuff to bitch about. I've been using it since it was available through msdn and can only gripe about 2 things. No time on the start screen and the resolution requirements being to high for my work laptop to use snap. In all of my time that is literally the only things that I am not completely thrilled about. These page long rants about win8 sucking are amazing. How do you guys have time to devote to whining about something you aren't forced to use? Instead of your next rant why don't you reinstall win7 as it's probably quicker than crying into your beer in the comments section.

For me, it is hard to understand all the whining...

I have been using Win8 Release Preview as my main OS for about 2 months now, and I feel that I now have a better Win7 than Win7, plus I have the added capability of the Modern Apps.
I use to only use the Start button in Win 7; but rarely, as I pin most of my frequently used programs on the task bar. I do the same with Win 8, and occasionally go to the Modern Start Screen when I need to find unpinned programs, or to start a Modern App. Not much difference to me.

All in all, Win8 is a better OS than Win7. Sure there are still things to improve. But, stop the whining and learn to use the new features. I have, and I am loving it...

I agree with most of the criticisms of the Metro UI but there are a few things wrong here.

Click and miss for start menu? How is that even possible? You don't have to aim to hit the start button in the bottom left. Just move your mouse all the way to the bottom left corner. Just moving your mouse very quickly down and left will get you there. Then click.

Yeah, that tutorial is pretty pathetic and should have been made better.

Either way, it seems if you want to get any real work done you need to use the desktop. That's what I do on my Windows 8 computers and it really is not an issue at all.

Metro UI seems fine for games and simple apps that you'd see on smartphones and smartphone-based tablets. I think that's totally fine. I have a few games and some simple apps like trackage, a package tracker utility installed. I don't use Metro for much more than that.

mrp04 said,
I agree with most of the criticisms of the Metro UI but there are a few things wrong here.

Click and miss for start menu? How is that even possible? You don't have to aim to hit the start button in the bottom left. Just move your mouse all the way to the bottom left corner. Just moving your mouse very quickly down and left will get you there. Then click.

Yeah, that tutorial is pretty pathetic and should have been made better.

Either way, it seems if you want to get any real work done you need to use the desktop. That's what I do on my Windows 8 computers and it really is not an issue at all.

Metro UI seems fine for games and simple apps that you'd see on smartphones and smartphone-based tablets. I think that's totally fine. I have a few games and some simple apps like trackage, a package tracker utility installed. I don't use Metro for much more than that.

Most older individuals when they left click the mouse also jerk the forward. I see it all the time. My dad the very first time clicking on start opened internet explorer. The first time I clicked start I opened Internet explorer. The fact your mouse can't be anywhere on the start button without it disappearing is stupid.

mrp04 said,

Metro UI seems fine for games and simple apps that you'd see on smartphones and smartphone-based tablets. I think that's totally fine. I have a few games and some simple apps like trackage, a package tracker utility installed. I don't use Metro for much more than that.

I agree with most of what you said, but disagree on this last point. The apps made for WinRT need time to mature. The iPad is starting to become a serious productivity tool. Half of the top 25 paid iPad apps are now productivity/business apps. This trend will only increase further when MS Office is eventually available for iPad. It takes time for developers to build robust apps. The OneNote MX app in WinRT shows great promise of how radial menus can be used to develop complex rich apps for a touch-first interface. I think given enough time we will eventually see WinRT apps that demonstrate the full capabilities of our most complex desktop apps. We have to assume that MS will continue expanding the API functionality of the WinRT environment as time marches forward. There's no technical reason why WinRT can't eventually replace the desktop completely.

The tutorial was absolutely pathetic. I was enjoying Windows 8 but a lot of the issues you describe and many that others describe became the never ending culprit of my frustration and I stopped using it. However, the features of Server 2012 are excellent and having be using a test farm of 10 Server 2012 machines through management of 1 central console is very handy out of the box with very little configuration needed.

I think as the OS becomes more common place at work we I may have different thoughts. It is hard to be working on Windows 8 then going to work using Windows 7 and XP. They are just too different, my brain is getting a work out!. At work we have no intention of moving to it. The costs to train on Windows 7 were minimal in this cost cutting economy that is not going to happen for Windows 8.

If someone posted something like this on the forums they would have been called a troll and issued a warning or banned. I have been using windows 8 DP since it came out, I have not had one issue with it so far.

-=SEDIN=- said,
If someone posted something like this on the forums they would have been called a troll and issued a warning or banned.

Considering that i've been reading on the forums posts like this (that are still there btw), I would say your comment is without merit.

The part about dual display annoyances is even more aggravated when using triple, quad and penta display set-ups. Trying to hit just the right pixel to bring up the startscreen button (not to mention moving up/down to bring up the active apps) before moving onto the other display is really annoying.
Although, due to high DPI with the mouse I use, I can easily move to the edge of the left-hand monitor to bring up the startscreen, it does become a little harder when having to travel through two+ screens on a penta display. It seems Windows 8 is just not suited for either my work nor home set-ups.

Ilys said,
The part about dual display annoyances is even more aggravated when using triple, quad and penta display set-ups. Trying to hit just the right pixel to bring up the startscreen button (not to mention moving up/down to bring up the active apps) before moving onto the other display is really annoying.
Although, due to high DPI with the mouse I use, I can easily move to the edge of the left-hand monitor to bring up the startscreen, it does become a little harder when having to travel through two+ screens on a penta display. It seems Windows 8 is just not suited for either my work nor home set-ups.

Use the scroll wheel on your mouse. Make the tiles come to you, rather you going to the tiles. But, mouse travel time increases on multi monitor setups whether you want it to or not, regardless of OS.

Dot Matrix said,

Use the scroll wheel on your mouse. Make the tiles come to you, rather you going to the tiles. But, mouse travel time increases on multi monitor setups whether you want it to or not, regardless of OS.


The scroll wheel does not appear to have any effect on the active apps list. Could this be a driver specific feature, say for instance a Microsoft mouse?

I have a natural tendency to move slightly horizontal in a direction based on the side of the screen I am using when moving up or down (i.e. moving slight left when at the left edge of the screen). In most cases, this isn't a problem (especially when I use my wacom instead of my mouse), but when trying to open up the active apps list or charmbar it can suddenly close when I accidentally move the cursor to another screen (and in some cases open both the active apps list and charmbar on adjacent screens).

Also, what other OS do you know of that has popup side-bars which can only (mouse-wise) be activated from the corners of the screen?

With a few slight tweaks on how the opening mechanics of the startscreen button and charmbar work, there wouldn't be an issue on Windows 8. In fact it would be much better than Windows 7 in that I could reliably (read: every time, all the time) bring up the startscreen, app list and charmbar on any screen rather than just the main screen. I wouldn't need to move to the edges of either far monitor to bring them up.

Ilys said,
The part about dual display annoyances is even more aggravated when using triple, quad and penta display set-ups. Trying to hit just the right pixel to bring up the startscreen button (not to mention moving up/down to bring up the active apps) before moving onto the other display is really annoying.
Although, due to high DPI with the mouse I use, I can easily move to the edge of the left-hand monitor to bring up the startscreen, it does become a little harder when having to travel through two+ screens on a penta display. It seems Windows 8 is just not suited for either my work nor home set-ups.

Somebody who uses "triple, quad and penta display set-ups" is clearly a power user and therefore will be well used to shortcuts keys. Wouldn't it be more inefficient to pan your mouse around those 3-5 screens even in Windows 7?

TCLN Ryster said,

Somebody who uses "triple, quad and penta display set-ups" is clearly a power user and therefore will be well used to shortcuts keys. Wouldn't it be more inefficient to pan your mouse around those 3-5 screens even in Windows 7?

That is a fallacy, plain and simple. Are you trying to tell me every graphics designer and architect is a "power user"?

I, personally, try to avoid using they keyboard as much as possible (30 years of programming has given me chronic RSI. I can only type for extended periods thanks to ergonomic keyboards, for which they are a dying breed, but I also still get cramp trying to use the ctrl+Fkey shortcuts), so I use the mouse and pen as much as possible when navigating Windows.

Yes, it is very inefficient with Windows 7, out of the box, to move back to the main monitor. However, I use DisplayFusion to add taskbars and start menus to all 3/5 screens, so that is not a problem for me. I only wish Windows 8 was a little more multi-screen friendly with its hot-spot regions and popup time-outs.

Also, as I said before, I use a very high DPI, which lets me pan the entire multi-screen desktop with only a few centimetres of mouse movement, and my wacom can switch between each monitor at the press of a button.

If you know so much a bout making a OS,then make one for your self what please you does not please me.
Microsoft I am rooting for you thing are looking good we are not fully there yet but you are on your way.Thank for a seat at the table hopefully of the future.

buxton said,
If you know so much a bout making a OS,then make one for your self what please you does not please me.
Microsoft I am rooting for you thing are looking good we are not fully there yet but you are on your way.Thank for a seat at the table hopefully of the future.

Could you re-write that again and this time in English.

Shadrack said,
I do like how programs can't override the default settings, actually. The rest of the points were spot on.

Really? I find it annoying that in Foobar, clicking the Manage file associations link now does nothing. You have to go in and do it from Control Panel.

devHead said,

Really? I find it annoying that in Foobar, clicking the Manage file associations link now does nothing. You have to go in and do it from Control Panel.

You can also right-click a file and do "Open With" and check the box to make it default. I'm more irritated by programs overwriting my defaults and having to set them back, honestly.

I've read the article and would like to share my comments.

The Mail and Messenger Apps are just that. APPS. Apps are not the Windows 8 operating system. People seem to think that because an app doesn't work, they won't be getting Windows 8. I use Windows Messenger 2012 on Windows 8 absolutely brilliantly. I also use Adobe Reader (and not the inbuilt pdf reader) to view my pdf documents. The point is, better apps should become available, so if one doesn't meet your needs, another one probably will come closer to doing that. Not liking an app is not a reason to not get Windows 8. That is like saying I don't like saying I won't buy that Fridge because the cheese in it is not of my liking.

The start button is controversial. But really, the majority of complaints I've seen have been from us. Techies. Yet it is us techies that always want people to be more productive. How often did you use the start button beforehand? I don't think people used it as much as they say. Even if you did, just press the windows key and you can instantly search for any programme AND FILE. Do people really find it difficult to change back to the Metro UI (I'm calling it Metro for clarity for myself really..)? I have never once had a problem of using the mouse to switch to the Metro UI and then accidentally clicking the icon closest to this button. I have a 21 inch monitor and a standard mouse. Can anyone with these problems tell us what devices you are using? I'd be interested to see that because as I said, never EVER had that problem??

Not sure why people get angry at the charms bar anymore. I remember posting on the forums that I don't understand its purpose and I still don't fully get it. But I really don't care - why? Because I've never used it except to shut down. Even then, now I am just using Alt F4 and shutting down.

Even if you have problems / issues with Windows 8 that have been mentioned, I read some silly comments that sticking with Windows 7 is the same thing. I am a novice so I don't understand or know all the new features, but I have come across a few:

- Faster Start up and Shutdown (even on my very old hard drives totalling 2TB..)
- Less crashes and everything is much more responsive - I have i7's and 6GB RAM not just talking about playing games, I'm talking about daily tasks etc. I am comparing this experience with Windows 7 which I tried to defrag, keep clean / healthy etc.
- BitLocker now comes with the Pro.

I'm sure there are some I missed, but in terms of performance, no, I don't want to return to Windows 7.

I am a student, I use Office, Adobe Reader, play games and browse the internet on my PC. In terms of work, no my productivity hasn't gone down. I can read emails fine since I use gmail. If you use hotmail, you can still read your emails in their app. I didn't realize people printed emails, but even if you do, ctrl p is what others have said.

The ironic thing is that the short cuts make you more productive, and those that don't want them, are those that want to use their mouse are the most infuriating people. I learnt some of the short cuts. It didn't take long. On a large screen, its easier to use the short cuts, regardless of whether I was using Windows 7 or Windows 8.

I hated Windows 8 because of the comments I read BEFOREHAND. I then tried Windows 8, got used to it and now I don't want to go back to 7.

I've never used Windows 8 on a touch screen device, so I apologise to those who read this comment and have issues with that type of device.

TsarNikky said,
Arrogant companies don't want to know their product's shortcoming. After all "they know what's best for you."

Please, how are they being arrogant? Are they forcing you to Windows 8? No. Are they forcing you to Modern apps? No. Where's the arrogance here?

Dot Matrix said,

Please, how are they being arrogant?

By not listening to what their consumers want and instead forcing a phone UI on their monopoly of desktop users in the hope that eventually we'll all come to like it.

Dot Matrix said,

Are they forcing you to Windows 8?

For people who buy a new OEM PC, and let's face it, that's the majority of PC users, absolutely they are.

Dot Matrix said,

Are they forcing you to Modern apps?

1. Every new app is a "Modern app". Just call it Metro, otherwise, the conversation is going to get very confusing.
2. It's such a pain to switch constantly between desktop and startscreen, that I'd say yes.

Dot Matrix said,

No. Where's the arrogance here?

Arrogance is Microsoft falsely believing their desktop OEM position is so insuperable that they can do anything they want and still hang on to their monopoly. Hubris will be their downfall. GNU/Linux is in a prime position to be the alternative for OEM's suffering financially because of Windows 8.

simplezz said,

By not listening to what their consumers want and instead forcing a phone UI on their monopoly of desktop users in the hope that eventually we'll all come to like it.

For people who buy a new OEM PC, and let's face it, that's the majority of PC users, absolutely they are.

1. Every new app is a "Modern app". Just call it Metro, otherwise, the conversation is going to get very confusing.
2. It's such a pain to switch constantly between desktop and startscreen, that I'd say yes.

Arrogance is Microsoft falsely believing their desktop OEM position is so insuperable that they can do anything they want and still hang on to their monopoly. Hubris will be their downfall. GNU/Linux is in a prime position to be the alternative for OEM's suffering financially because of Windows 8.

If Microsoft listened to what people want, they would have been killed long ago. Windows would be this disasterous monstrosity that just wouldn't have sold. What they are doing here is no more "arrogant" than "forcing" the desktop on users. So they have a new start screen. Boo hoo. It's ten times as functional than the start menu, and unifies the OS with XBox and Windows Phone. You can't evolve and grow if you don't change, and those that can't change are going to die.

Between tablets, touch screen desktops, new I/O devices, etc, the need for something new is there. To keep forcing the desktop would be the arrogant move - and they did just that with Windows 7 tablets - and that failed. Big time failed.

simplezz said,
By not listening to what their consumers want and instead forcing a phone UI on their monopoly of desktop users in the hope that eventually we'll all come to like it. Hubris will be their downfall. GNU/Linux is in a prime position to be the alternative for OEM's suffering financially because of Windows 8.

You mean like how most of the latest Linux desktops are doing the same thing? Take a look at Unity or GNOME 3 for example... not exactly being well received by the majority either, otherwise you wouldn't have projects like Mate and such popping up.. good number of people didn't appreciate that shoved down their throat either. (And for the billionth time, stop confusing what the majority of users want with monopolies.. can you install another OS on your PC? Yes? Not a monopoly.) Know what OS is going to benefit if Windows 8 craps out? Windows 7. Maybe OSX to a lesser extent. Same old "time to jump ship" rhetoric came around with Vista, and how'd that turn out for Linux's market share?

Let me state that I have tried to work with Windows 8. Emphasis on the word TRIED. To say that it is a disaster in the making is to understate things. For a tablet, Windows 8 will probably be a fairly good OS, but for the desktop it's an abysmal failure. Forced to start in the Metro UI, loss of the Start Menu, everything is buried under a new layer of interfaces that you have to get used to, it literally screams of a loss of focus by Microsoft. (And there'll be plenty of users screaming at it, too, users who aren't as savvy as the folks who post here and won't know what to do when confronted with what Microsoft is inflicting on the public at large.) And forget about corporations adopting Windows 8, the one I work for isn't even halfway finished with Windows 7 deployments.

I'll stay with Windows 7 on the desktop, and my netbook, and a Linux boot drive if I'm feeling adventurous, plus Mac OS X when I have to work on Mac systems... but please, no Windows 8 here.

Put Windows 7 in 16 colors (8bits) display mode like the Metro/Modern UI and it will be as quick and responsive than Windows 8.

EvilDust said,
Put Windows 7 in 16 colors (8bits) display mode like the Metro/Modern UI and it will be as quick and responsive than Windows 8.
Best comment of the day.

EvilDust said,
Put Windows 7 in 16 colors (8bits) display mode like the Metro/Modern UI and it will be as quick and responsive than Windows 8.

Not sure if trolling or serious.

Wyn6 said,

Not sure if trolling or serious.

He has a point. Startup/Shutdown were sped up by removing logon/logoff sounds. There is optimized code. But MS made a lot of decisions for us to speed things up. Without a doubt, some of the Desktop windowing speed is the result of the blandness, no Aero.

MorganX said,

Without a doubt, some of the Desktop windowing speed is the result of the blandness, no Aero.

For Christ sake! Aero has not gone from the desktop! Transparency has just be turned down and it isn't completely gone!

Jose_49 said,

For Christ sake! Aero has not gone from the desktop! Transparency has just be turned down and it isn't completely gone!

come on man, everyone uses Aero ubiquitously with glass and that's not going to change. the point remains the same.

Regarding the mess after installing programs. This is the fault of third-party developers, not Microsoft.

ReadMe's, release notes, documentation/help shortcuts, website links and other junk should be accessed from within the application itself and uninstall shortcuts are completely unnecessary because we have "Programs and Features" in the Control Panel for removing programs.

You don't have this issue on Mac OS X (or Linux), so why do Windows users put up with it? Imagine if every developer added a ton of extra links to your OS X dock. That would be complete and utter mess!!!

Ace said,
Regarding the mess after installing programs. This is the fault of third-party developers, not Microsoft.

ReadMe's, release notes, documentation/help shortcuts, website links and other junk should be accessed from within the application itself and uninstall shortcuts are completely unnecessary because we have "Programs and Features" in the Control Panel for removing programs.

You don't have this issue on Mac OS X (or Linux), so why do Windows users put up with it? Imagine if every developer added a ton of extra links to your OS X dock. That would be complete and utter mess!!!

It is the same reason that Windows users put up with an increasingly shittier GUI consistency - nothing is ever said, there is never any protest but more importantly the problem is with Microsoft and their 'couldn't give a ****' attitude when it comes to GUI consistency. Where as Apple takes pride shipping a good product, Microsoft on the other hand only does anything if a competitor does something - we've seen it with Internet Explorer and heck Office only became cheaper because students were downloading StarOffice/OpenOffice.org in lieu of forking out the huge price before the Home & Student edition was introduced. Anyone who says Microsoft is innovative is quite frankly ignorant to 30+ years of Microsoft's history and their 'me too' ethos. Unfortunately when they do a 'me too' it always ends up looking half assed and half baked.

Ace said,
Regarding the mess after installing programs. This is the fault of third-party developers, not Microsoft.
What, like Microsoft's very own Visual Studio? That puts a **** load of new links onto the start screen.

Ace said,
Regarding the mess after installing programs. This is the fault of third-party developers, not Microsoft.

ReadMe's, release notes, documentation/help shortcuts, website links and other junk should be accessed from within the application itself and uninstall shortcuts are completely unnecessary because we have "Programs and Features" in the Control Panel for removing programs.

You don't have this issue on Mac OS X (or Linux), so why do Windows users put up with it? Imagine if every developer added a ton of extra links to your OS X dock. That would be complete and utter mess!!!

Programs with associated readmes, updaters, etc in osx are grouped into hierarchical folders within /applications which cannot be done with metro start. That's yet another deficiency with the start screen.

Ilys said,
What, like Microsoft's very own Visual Studio? That puts a **** load of new links onto the start screen.

Except none of those are readme's, web links or uninstall shortcuts. They are all important separate parts of the product and deserve their own icon. Next you'll be telling us that Office is only allowed a single icon despite having lots of separate parts like Word, Excel, etc.

TCLN Ryster said,

Except none of those are readme's, web links or uninstall shortcuts. They are all important separate parts of the product and deserve their own icon. Next you'll be telling us that Office is only allowed a single icon despite having lots of separate parts like Word, Excel, etc.


No, I'm saying putting all of those icons into one folder would be the more logical thing to do. If they can do it on Android, why the hell not for Windows 8? It looks a complete mess when you install just about anything, designed for Windows 8 or not.

Also, are you really telling me you need *ALL* of the links to every tool command line, trace tool, spy tool, remote tool and Windows SDK tool for every version of Visual Studio installed, on the startscreen? Oh, and if you even think about asking why you would need to install more than one version of VS, you have obviously never had to use multi-targeting (building projects using older compilers, runtimes and libraries).

Colin McGregor said,
Great now the trolls get to make editorials

The "Troll" happens to be the person who co-founded and runs this site. I'd think his opinion's a little better informed than yours.

Tal Greywolf said,

The "Troll" happens to be the person who co-founded and runs this site. I'd think his opinion's a little better informed than yours.

ya, he co-founded neowin so he knows everything about windows 8 hah if you wanna kiss his butt just send him a pm

Colin McGregor said,
Great now the trolls get to make editorials

Maybe you should look up the definition of Internet 'troll'. Stephen is definitely not trolling in his article. He is bringing up valid points and deficiencies in Windows 8 that should have been addressed before it was RTMed.

Tal Greywolf said,

The "Troll" happens to be the person who co-founded and runs this site. I'd think his opinion's a little better informed than yours.

Sorry, but that's just ludicrous. Just because he "co-founded and runs" Neowin, doesn't make his opinion any more or less valid than anybody else's. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion and they are all equally valid... those not based on falsehoods and misconceptions at least. Like "I hate Windows 8 because I can't install desktop apps any more" for example (which I have heard before btw). Clearly wrong, and therefore an invalid opinion.

TCLN Ryster said,

Just because he "co-founded and runs" Neowin, doesn't make his opinion any more or less valid than anybody else's.

Maybe, maybe not.
But he is most likely more informed than any of us are.
I would value his opinion more than a regular poster on an internet forum that i've never met.

I will use Windows8 as I used my W8 RP now. Fully on desktop and the start screen is only to search for app. Metro apps are just plain crap. But I like the improvement they have done to Win8 underneath like performance etc. For any other tablet thing, my Nexus7 with JellyBean is more than enough for me.

I think the only thing I can agree with here is the Modern App issues. Yes, they are missing MUCH functionality.

However, the poster who wrote that comment about Windows 9 has no idea what they are talking about. The Start Menu is dead and not coming back. There is no functionality in there that needs to return. Start Screen has app pinning and Search. And Windows 9 will be a guaranteed evolution of Windows 8, Modern apps included. There is no way Microsoft can simply abandon those that invested in it. It's your choice on whether you want to use them or not.

Dot Matrix said,
I think the only thing I can agree with here is the Modern App issues. Yes, they are missing MUCH functionality.

The reality is, full screen metro apps don't belong on a desktop machine, especially one's with large screens. It's just inefficient.

The problem is, that the start screen forces you to use it like you think it should be used but it does not work.

You are using a desktop. Not something mobile. You'd think you would do more than just basic stuff. That mentality forces you to do so.

For example, some caveats I find with the start screen:
1) No multi drag. I do not know why they didn't think about this. If you could multi select, you can multidrag, or at least that's the logic.

2) There is not an option to change the search function to an unfiltered one. They could have added an option to automatically focus to settings or files when Apps is not found.

3) Inconsistency on the Apps is worrying. If I can move my mouse to a side and it will pan automatically, you'd think that MS branded apps will do the same.

4) When you click the start screen having a Metro app running on a secondary screen it will automatically "minimize it". Do not ask me why but it's like that.

5) 9 Max modern apps running. iOS and Android do not limit the functionality to a set of apps. It is true that Live tiles can do display information, but that's it. If they had a way to interact directly , instead of opening them again, that max apps running would have been justified.

6) Dark Window Colors can not be read. I do not know why they didn't automatically chose to make the text whiter when the saturation gets that dark.

Jose_49 said,
The problem is, that the start screen forces you to use it like you think it should be used but it does not work.

You are using a desktop. Not something mobile. You'd think you would do more than just basic stuff. That mentality forces you to do so.

For example, some caveats I find with the start screen:
1) No multi drag. I do not know why they didn't think about this. If you could multi select, you can multidrag, or at least that's the logic.

2) There is not an option to change the search function to an unfiltered one. They could have added an option to automatically focus to settings or files when Apps is not found.

3) Inconsistency on the Apps is worrying. If I can move my mouse to a side and it will pan automatically, you'd think that MS branded apps will do the same.

4) When you click the start screen having a Metro app running on a secondary screen it will automatically "minimize it". Do not ask me why but it's like that.

5) 9 Max modern apps running. iOS and Android do not limit the functionality to a set of apps. It is true that Live tiles can do display information, but that's it. If they had a way to interact directly , instead of opening them again, that max apps running would have been justified.

6) Dark Window Colors can not be read. I do not know why they didn't automatically chose to make the text whiter when the saturation gets that dark.


1.) You CAN multi-drag. Group the tiles together, zoom out, then drag them where you want them to be.

2.) Search is funky. I'll give you that.

3.) Panning does not work with multi-monitor setups. TBH, I don't miss that feature at all, I find the scroll wheel easier to use.

4.) This one I agree with you on. I don't know why Metro apps work only on one screen, and it is a feature request I have been very vocal about elsewhere.

5.) 9 is a lot of apps to be running. I know of no one who has this many running on any OS they are using.

6.) Not sure why this is, but I can say it appears to be a bug.

simplezz said,

The reality is, full screen metro apps don't belong on a desktop machine, especially one's with large screens. It's just inefficient.

You seem to be confusing reality for opinion.

Dot Matrix said,

...

9 apps won't be much when there are many and many modern apps on the Store .

Anyways, those caveats mentioned do not prevent me from using Win 8. Love the under the hood changes

Ignore the microsoft fanbois, who would defend a dung heap if it had a microsoft label on it. I've said it before and I'll say it again, this will be a flop, windows millenium 2. I only feel sorry for people who will install it believing it will be good on the back of windows 7's success, maybe not knowing or remembering microsoft's pattern of other windows failures.

The word needs to go out from credible sources and critcs, who more ppl will pay attention too. So that they can at least be warned before purchasing this failboat.

Tartan said,
Ignore the microsoft fanbois...<snip>
The word needs to go out from credible sources and critcs, who more ppl will pay attention too. So that they can at least be warned before purchasing this failboat.

So, like a product and you're a "microsoft fanboi". Guess that automatically makes you a "hater" or a "troll" then?

Also, if you are to be believed, nobody is allowed to make up their own mind. Only those "credible" sources are allowed an opinion of their own. And yes that's all they are, opinions.

Windows 8 isnt perfect, but at least it doesn't fail as hard as your comment.

I don't think even Microsoft's most ardent payola campaign can save this monstrosity. Although I expect they'll try anyway.

Edited by simplezz, Aug 19 2012, 1:38pm :

Out of all of these, I can say I haven't encountered the click and miss problem even once. I always know to put the mouse as far left until the Start box appears, which is near instant.

Also, I would agree that the Messaging app is limited though. But you think, they're designed for tablet use/over desktop. If you treat them as tablet apps, then they're not as bad.

You think the iPad messages app doesn't let you print, (although it let's you send pictures).

But I'd also agree the default problems are a mess. I want to have Google Chrome as my default browser to open links, but when I do. It enables Immersive mode, which makes the tile only open the Immersive version which is a pain. I wish they'd disable that.

So for now, I have to settle with all my links opening in IE whether I like it or not.

Possession said,

You think the iPad messages app doesn't let you print, (although it let's you send pictures).

I'm not sure that I understand this sentence. Why would the Messages app on the iPad need to let you print? Are there are a lot of people wanting to print text messages? Meanwhile, printing an email on the iPad is simple (provided you have an AirPrint-capable printer).

Manish said,

I'm not sure that I understand this sentence. Why would the Messages app on the iPad need to let you print? Are there are a lot of people wanting to print text messages? Meanwhile, printing an email on the iPad is simple (provided you have an AirPrint-capable printer).

Sorry about that, I misread the part about the Messaging app and thought he meant he was unhappy that you couldn't print, when he actually meant couldn't share files.

Mr Parker does have *some* good points. Windows 8 is not perfect, I concede that. There are several things that annoy me too, but not enough to outweigh the positives in my opinion.

Could it have been better? Sure. But the same can be said of almost technology when the v1.0 of it is introduced. Take the iPhone for example... when that came out most people were complaining that it couldn't do even basic things that other phones had been doing for years. Like MMS for example.

Complaining about the functionality of the bundled apps when reviewing Windows 8 is pointless. These are not part of Windows, they merely come pre-installed with it, hence the separate listing for each in the store. These WILL be updated over time. Hell, I'd even go so far as to almost guarantee that each will receive an update to add more features and functionality prior to Windows 8's GA.

One of Steven's "issues" that really annoys me is this one... "Links within the email. This really annoys me; any links in emails are forced opened in the "Modern app" version of your default browser, and since sessions aren't even shared between the desktop and Modern browsers, it just creates a real annoyance. You can't change this behavior."

In response to that I say this... if you wanted to be at the desktop, why would you be reading email in the metro app to begin with? Surely you'd be in your desktop mail client instead. Why should the metro mail client open links in the desktop browser? That would just be stupid and counter productive, especially on tablets. I do however agree that it would be nice if the two "halves" of the browser shared info with each other, but I guess that's by design to keep metro apps sandboxed for your safety.

The default programs issue bugs me too. While programs like Chrome DO register themselves as the default browser for example, they don't fully register all their file type associations. I'm not sure if this is a Windows issue, or the app's installer not requesting the right thing. Time will tell I guess.

TCLN Ryster said,

Complaining about the functionality of the bundled apps when reviewing Windows 8 is pointless. These are not part of Windows, they merely come pre-installed with it...

Why is it pointless? How are the bundled Metro (or whatever they're calling them now) apps not a part of the overall experience of Windows 8? Anyone who reviews Windows 8, upon its release, is making a significant omission if they fail to critique/discuss the quality of these aforementioned apps. Yes people will be able to download an alternative from the Windows Store, as you are so avidly telling others, but isn't Microsoft aiming to deliver a great native OOBE with the new Start Screen and its Metro apps? If certain basic functions are missing from these apps, people should be complaining. Besides, it'll help Microsoft know what to focus on in future updates.

Manish said,

Why is it pointless? How are the bundled Metro (or whatever they're calling them now) apps not a part of the overall experience of Windows 8? Anyone who reviews Windows 8, upon its release, is making a significant omission if they fail to critique/discuss the quality of these aforementioned apps. Yes people will be able to download an alternative from the Windows Store, as you are so avidly telling others, but isn't Microsoft aiming to deliver a great native OOBE with the new Start Screen and its Metro apps? If certain basic functions are missing from these apps, people should be complaining. Besides, it'll help Microsoft know what to focus on in future updates.

I'm not saying people shouldn't review the apps. I'm just saying that iapplications shouldn't negatively influence reviews of the operating system itself. Besides, Windows 8 hasn't reached GA yet... the apps are separate for a reason. So they can continue to be developed and new versions released over time.

TCLN Ryster said,

I'm just saying that iapplications shouldn't negatively influence reviews of the operating system itself.

Why shouldn't they (upon GA)? As I said, they're part of the new Windows 8 experience, tied extremely closely to the new Start Screen and "modern" UI. It'd be ridiculous to excuse poor quality on Microsoft's behalf just because of the abundance of alternatives. It'd also be silly not to praise them where they've made these apps simple yet functional enough to work for the majority of users. Of course, one poor app does not mean that Windows 8 is poor also.

Additionally, I never denied nor disagreed that they wouldn't update these apps; I'm sure that they will. However, someone reviewing or critiquing a product does not need to deliberate on what future updates may or may not potentially bring.

simplezz said,
Windows 8 - The greatest thing to happen to desktop GNU/Linux marketshare in years. Thank you Microsoft

Oh God, I guess this year is the year of the linux desktop?

simplezz said,
Windows 8 - The greatest thing to happen to desktop GNU/Linux marketshare in years. Thank you Microsoft

*Installs Linux*

Tries to install Office, fails.
Tries to install Quicken, fails.
Tries to install my classic games, fails.
Tries to install WLE, fails.

*throws Linux out the window*

Lol. People never used Gadgets at all in Vista or, and now that they're gone you want to cling to them?

And you guys really need to get over the Start Screen. Speaking from a technical perspective, it is leaps and bounds better than the Start Menu ever could be. I for one, love its customization features, also, I for once can actually SEE the icons I'm clicking on. 16x16 icons should have been abandoned with XP.

Dot Matrix said,
Lol. People never used Gadgets at all in Vista or, and now that they're gone you want to cling to them?

And you guys really need to get over the Start Screen. Speaking from a technical perspective, it is leaps and bounds better than the Start Menu ever could be. I for one, love its customization features, also, I for once can actually SEE the icons I'm clicking on. 16x16 icons should have been abandoned with XP.

Dot... it's really not "leaps and bounds better". There are a few things it does well, or arguably better then the start menu.

Dot Matrix said,
Lol. People never used Gadgets at all in Vista or

Wow, you actually surveyed everyone and are able to make that claim?
No, I didn't think so either.

I quite like my gadgets

There are some good points here, but truth be told with every five steps forward there are always a few steps backward. Anyway I'm pretty happy with it so far. IMO SP1 will iron out all the bullshiit

I'm starting to like Windows 8. Upgraded my Win 7 installation when 8 became available on MSDN. I guess it took me about 30-45 minutes to like it.

It should have been such an easy thing. You have an amazing successful and well respected Windows 7, you add functionality to Explorer which makes things even smarter and gives more control over your vast database of files and folders. There is improved speed and the option to switch on a tablet UI if required but it doesn't ruin your desktop experience because its only activated if needed.

Windows 8 sells amazingly.

Instead we get Windows 7(tablet UI edition) - Its capable of running on the desktop but not really made for it. Now for some reason they decided to call that Windows 8.

I have always intended to wait until a full scale windows 8 tablet comes out and then I would ask for windows 8 bundled with the tablet pc come november. That has always been my plans and intentions to do so. I haven't bought a new pc yet and I am phasing out notebooks in favor of tablet pcs because then its easier to carry and to do computing stuff on the road with a lightweight tablet pc

I agree with the writer 100%. Why do the metro versions of mail, calendar, internet explorer, photos have LESS functionality than on Windows phone 7.0? Why do you have better functionality when going to outlook.com/hotmail.com than on you own metro desktop?
I mean, a browser that cannot save bookmarks, a mail app that cannot display more than x days of e-mails and where in order to mark an e-mail unread you have to move your mouse to the other side of the screen. It is just unforgivably bad. Try reading a web page that has no specific column width, the text will flow from left side to right side on you whole 27" monitor and there's nothing you can do about it (other than go to desktop IE, and that will not be possible on win RT).

Another huge issue is paging. Even in the most simple web browser you can use page up/page down to browse a web page. If a row is cut in half at the bottom edge, the row will be displayed in full when you press page down. In Metro apps it is the wild west. Text flow to the right, when a text column is cut in half and you press page down, only the other half will be shown at the next page (in most apps). So you will have to scroll the page into place every time. And then there are weird focus problems when you have to click your mouse into the text in order to use pgup/dwn at all. It's just insanely bad.

Not to mention the very odd search concept. In most app you have to go to the system search charm by moving your mouse in a crazy trajectory, to perform simple search. And why would any person ever when in an recipes app ever want to use that search term to search the weather app at the same time?

I could go on and on. To me it seems metro is in an early alpha stage, and should never have been released like this to the public.

Fred77 said,
a mail app that cannot display more than x days of e-mails

just so you know you can set it up to show all your emails, its under options and then click the email account you want it to take effect on

The bundled metro apps are not supposed to be the be all and end all of apps. They're supposed to be basic apps to give you basic functionality out of the box. Microsoft are not trying to put other mail or messenger app makers out of business.

Want a better app? Go and download one once the store is populated.

Fred77 said,

I could go on and on. To me it seems metro is in an early alpha stage, and should never have been released like this to the public.

My same thoughts. Seems Metro was rushed to prevent another Windows XP from surging (a.k.a Windows 7)

TCLN Ryster said,
The bundled metro apps are not supposed to be the be all and end all of apps. They're supposed to be basic apps to give you basic functionality out of the box. Microsoft are not trying to put other mail or messenger app makers out of business.

Want a better app? Go and download one once the store is populated.

Let's see..mail is a basic app...printing is a basic task...metro is a touch oriented ui...so why the heck isint there a button to touch to print...you shouldn't have to use a physical input device on a touchscreen interface to accomplish a basic task. Btw...anyone else think that Microsoft blatantly ripped the metro ui from the rainmeter skin omnimo? I know that omnimo was inspired by wp7 but they took that idea and put it to use on a desktop interface long before Microsoft showed their metro desktop off.

Fred77 said,
I agree with the writer 100%. Why do the metro versions of mail, calendar, internet explorer, photos have LESS functionality than on Windows phone 7.0? Why do you have better functionality when going to outlook.com/hotmail.com than on you own metro desktop?
I mean, a browser that cannot save bookmarks, a mail app that cannot display more than x days of e-mails and where in order to mark an e-mail unread you have to move your mouse to the other side of the screen. It is just unforgivably bad. Try reading a web page that has no specific column width, the text will flow from left side to right side on you whole 27" monitor and there's nothing you can do about it (other than go to desktop IE, and that will not be possible on win RT).

Another huge issue is paging. Even in the most simple web browser you can use page up/page down to browse a web page. If a row is cut in half at the bottom edge, the row will be displayed in full when you press page down. In Metro apps it is the wild west. Text flow to the right, when a text column is cut in half and you press page down, only the other half will be shown at the next page (in most apps). So you will have to scroll the page into place every time. And then there are weird focus problems when you have to click your mouse into the text in order to use pgup/dwn at all. It's just insanely bad.

Not to mention the very odd search concept. In most app you have to go to the system search charm by moving your mouse in a crazy trajectory, to perform simple search. And why would any person ever when in an recipes app ever want to use that search term to search the weather app at the same time?

I could go on and on. To me it seems metro is in an early alpha stage, and should never have been released like this to the public.


FYI: saving bookmarks is now pinning websites to start.

So, dragging your mouse into a corner is a "weird trajectory"? No wonder they got rid of the Start Button. Heh. Search is fine. Great actually. The ability to search for anything from anywhere in the OS is brilliant. Search the system, a current app, an unopened app, and the internet no matter what you're doing? Can't beat it with a blunt object.

I mostly agree with you on bookmarks. You can pin your favorite sites, but this isn't ideal for many nerds who may have tens or even hundreds of sites pinned which would put a lot of tiles on the Start Screen.

One of your email issues has been answered above. The other about moving the mouse to the other side of the screen for taskbar commands, I can sort of agree with. I say sort of because I'm mostly ambivalent here. I have a 42" screen and it takes a split second to move my mouse there. I guess if you had a 8' screen this could grow tiresome.

I haven't had any issues reading any web pages. But, we probably visit different sites. So, If you could site an example here that could be looked at, that'd be superb. I like that word... superb.

Pg Up/Dn. Again, need an example here as both work just fine for me and perform the desired tasks.

I find the RT side of things to be very effective and fluid, if I may borrow a term. Oh and fast. I've had very few issues with it myself. So, I guess this is either a case of subjectivity and/or YMMV.

FYI, the first party apps aren't finished. MS said they would be updating these apps up to and beyond general availability. So, there still a chance they'll achieve Windows Phone parity by that point or at some time in the futurez.

Windows7even said,

Let's see..mail is a basic app...printing is a basic task...metro is a touch oriented ui...so why the heck isint there a button to touch to print...you shouldn't have to use a physical input device on a touchscreen interface to accomplish a basic task. Btw...anyone else think that Microsoft blatantly ripped the metro ui from the rainmeter skin omnimo? I know that omnimo was inspired by wp7 but they took that idea and put it to use on a desktop interface long before Microsoft showed their metro desktop off.

You don't need to use a button to print. Did you actually read the post? You CAN use Ctrl+P, or you can use the charms bar->devices->choose printer you want it to come out of. Charms bar is activated by swiping in from the right on a touch screen.

First, Stop using a computer like it is 1985. Why do I need to close apps anymore.

Second, I have 2 Teachers that have been in the classroom since 1968, they Love Windows 8.

Crawl out of moms basement and see the world.

Apps can still be huge resource drains, you seem to be wired up to accept everything thats told to you so hopefully this confuses you.

Im glad your two teachers love Windows 8, does it remind them of the other pre-school toys in their classroom?

People who do not agree with you dont automatically need to do what you do once a month.

MikadoWU said,
First, Stop using a computer like it is 1985. Why do I need to close apps anymore.

Second, I have 2 Teachers that have been in the classroom since 1968, they Love Windows 8.

Crawl out of moms basement and see the world.


exactly, **** closing applications. whats that? i want to have crysis 2, max payne 3 and photoshop all running in memory all at the same time. RAM is cheap, we should all have 512GB *rolleyes*

HoochieMamma said,


exactly, **** closing applications. whats that? i want to have crysis 2, max payne 3 and photoshop all running in memory all at the same time. RAM is cheap, we should all have 512GB *rolleyes*

Modern apps use ZERO resources when not in focus. They are suspended, and if need be, pushed out of memory automatically if there is RAM needed. The idea is to not "close" them like we are used to doing.

HoochieMamma said,


exactly, **** closing applications. whats that? i want to have crysis 2, max payne 3 and photoshop all running in memory all at the same time. RAM is cheap, we should all have 512GB *rolleyes*

He said stop closing apps not stop closing desktop programs. Back to you, Tom.

MikadoWU said,
First, Stop using a computer like it is 1985. Why do I need to close apps anymore.

Second, I have 2 Teachers that have been in the classroom since 1968, they Love Windows 8.

Crawl out of moms basement and see the world.

maybe because there are a ton of obvious reasons ?

And if the 2nd part to your insulting comment warranted merit
i would respond, but..

That's a weird way to print!

So printing is now like "Send to this Device".

But I see whee they are coming from. They are trying to put "Make this device do this" from a button onto the common Device charm.

personally i like how they have setup printing and everything else about the charm back. well im not a huge fan of having shutdown in there and not were you log-off

I don't have the issue with hitting Start in the lower left corner. I do agree on the Messaging app, it's so basic. You can be on your tablet chatting with someone, but when you want to start a video call you'll both have to switch to the Skype app. That's just bull****.

Jarrichvdv said,
I don't have the issue with hitting Start in the lower left corner. I do agree on the Messaging app, it's so basic. You can be on your tablet chatting with someone, but when you want to start a video call you'll both have to switch to the Skype app. That's just bull****.

The cr-apps aren't part of Windows, they are separate entities. They just happen to come bundled with Windows. Want a better messenger app? Then download one once the store is populated.

TCLN Ryster said,

The cr-apps aren't part of Windows, they are separate entities. They just happen to come bundled with Windows. Want a better messenger app? Then download one once the store is populated.

cr-apps? Oh! I see whatcha did there. Hmmm. Gimme a day or so to decide on whether that was clever or not.

Wyn6 said,

cr-apps? Oh! I see whatcha did there. Hmmm. Gimme a day or so to decide on whether that was clever or not.

Don't get me wrong, I love Windows 8. I'm a big advocate of it. But I agree with most of the whiners that the current apps leave a lot to be desired. that being said, saying cr-apps was just a joke

I remember a commercial from an 80s movie Crazy People. Volvo Boxy but GOOD.

People just want something to complain about. Windows 8 Performance alone is a Reason to upgrade. I find it to be as big a jump from Vista to 7.

I also am not convinced there is going to be a Windows 9 anytime soon. The Major upgrade is a dying trend. I expect to see Microsoft, put out Minor Refreshes, ever 6 months or so just like phones.

Technology is changing to fast to have to wait 2-3 years for Native USB 3, Thunderbolt, H.265, and so on......

I would also like to point out that Most of us that Troll these websites are Tech people. However.... I have demo'd Windows 8 to over 100 Teachers at the High School I work out. Everyone of them loved it. I even have people ready to leave Apple.

We have found that over 95% of our daily activities are easier on Windows 8, then Windows 7.

For out student, I believe this could be game over. Windows 8 RT can finally change education in a big way.....

I ask you all, stop reviewing Windows 8 as a Tech Guy.

Review Windows 8 as 95% of the world is going to use it.... Email, Internet, Office.... and the Wonderful Start screen showing me all my updates at once.............

Yeah good luck teaching ma and pop that instead of clicking the easy to see buttons whose functions are clearly marked that they now have to hover over invisible hot spots or drag their mouse around making weird voodoo symbols to do anything. Close an app, oh that's easy. Just click and hold up at the top of the screen and drag your mouse all the way to the bottom. That's totally intuitive isn't it. Face it, Windows 8 is a phone OS shoehorned onto a desktop, and badly.

Did you even read the article? Your Windows 9 comment is off too, because Microsoft has already pledged to release a new version every two to three years, and from Vista onward they have done exactly this. Maybe their ramped up release cycle is what screwed up Windows 8, who knows.

They can pledge all they want. It does not mean that they are not going to change the way they do business. Most of the Stuff in Windows 8, WP8 and Xbox (720/Next, or whatever) Microsoft was talking about in 2001. Thank you Justice department for slowing down progress.

Microsoft is Evolving, be ready for it.

TRC said,
Yeah good luck teaching ma and pop that instead of clicking the easy to see buttons whose functions are clearly marked that they now have to hover over invisible hot spots or drag their mouse around making weird voodoo symbols to do anything. Close an app, oh that's easy. Just click and hold up at the top of the screen and drag your mouse all the way to the bottom. That's totally intuitive isn't it. Face it, Windows 8 is a phone OS shoehorned onto a desktop, and badly.

Watching all those ponies probably damaged your brain.
The start button has moved into the charmbar, your new friend that you'll use daily to perform many tasks. And the charm bar isn't usefull all the time, so it's a good idea to hide it when not necessary to gain more free space on the screen.
Closing a WinRT app (aka: the apps you can install from the store) isn't necessary. The only case you should close them is if the app is frozen. And for that you can drag it like you said or use the task manager like you are used to kill the app or middle click on it's thumbnail on the left panel showing the list of the apps if you have enabled it.
It's is a phone OS, why can't I call people on their phone with it ? Ho wait ... because it's not a phone OS and you are saying BS.

FRIENDSHIP IS MAGIC!

TRC said,
Yeah good luck teaching ma and pop that instead of clicking the easy to see buttons whose functions are clearly marked that they now have to hover over invisible hot spots or drag their mouse around making weird voodoo symbols to do anything. Close an app, oh that's easy. Just click and hold up at the top of the screen and drag your mouse all the way to the bottom. That's totally intuitive isn't it. Face it, Windows 8 is a phone OS shoehorned onto a desktop, and badly.

Why are you trying to close Modern apps? Don't worry about closing them.

MikadoWU said,
I remember a commercial from an 80s movie Crazy People. Volvo Boxy but GOOD.

I would also like to point out that Most of us that Troll these websites are Tech people. However.... I have demo'd Windows 8 to over 100 Teachers at the High School I work out. Everyone of them loved it. I even have people ready to leave Apple.

We have found that over 95% of our daily activities are easier on Windows 8, then Windows 7.

Wow your school has 100 teachers? Must be a big school.

warwagon said,

Wow your school has 100 teachers? Must be a big school.

That's a small school by Dallas school's standards.

Anthonyd said,

It's is a phone OS, why can't I call people on their phone with it ? Ho wait ... because it's not a phone OS and you are saying BS.

So iPhone OS is not a Phone OS, as the iPod Touch can't phone people? Sounds 100% logical...

Anthonyd said,

Watching all those ponies probably damaged your brain.
The start button has moved into the charmbar, your new friend that you'll use daily to perform many tasks. And the charm bar isn't usefull all the time, so it's a good idea to hide it when not necessary to gain more free space on the screen.
Closing a WinRT app (aka: the apps you can install from the store) isn't necessary. The only case you should close them is if the app is frozen. And for that you can drag it like you said or use the task manager like you are used to kill the app or middle click on it's thumbnail on the left panel showing the list of the apps if you have enabled it.
It's is a phone OS, why can't I call people on their phone with it ? Ho wait ... because it's not a phone OS and you are saying BS.

FRIENDSHIP IS MAGIC!

Wow, personal attacks because I don't like the same OS as you. Are you fanboys are that thin skinned? Also you know good and well what I mean by phone OS, an OS designed for touch based devices like smart phones and tablets. As for the charms bar it's another terrible feature that belongs on portable devices and not a desktop. Windows 8 is a design disaster.

It feels like Microsoft were totally clueless from the start of Windows 8 development about UI designs and how to offer a cohesive experience in the RTM OS.

They could have dumped the ModernUI completely, kept the start menu but integrated app store in the OS like Apple did.

We would have not seen the bloodshed like this.

sanke1 said,
It feels like Microsoft were totally clueless from the start of Windows 8 development about UI designs and how to offer a cohesive experience in the RTM OS.

They could have dumped the ModernUI completely, kept the start menu but integrated app store in the OS like Apple did.

We would have not seen the bloodshed like this.

Then how do they go about selling tablets? They can't continue to ignore that market, and no, upscaling WP is not something they should have done. I for one, am glad to be getting the full power of Windows in tablet form.

Dot Matrix said,

Then how do they go about selling tablets? They can't continue to ignore that market, and no, upscaling WP is not something they should have done. I for one, am glad to be getting the full power of Windows in tablet form.


Was I even talking about tablets here? The desktop UI is not gelling well with Modern UI and Modern UI is very very limited on Desktop.

You are a textbook example of a Microsoft Fanboy!

Dot Matrix said,
Then how do they go about selling tablets? They can't continue to ignore that market, and no, upscaling WP is not something they should have done. I for one, am glad to be getting the full power of Windows in tablet form.

Easy - create a build that has only has support for WinRT/Metro and call it 'Windows 8 Tablet Edition'. Leave the two thing separate - Windows 8 for the desktop and a tablet edition for the tablets - never shall the twain meet.

Dot Matrix said,

Then how do they go about selling tablets? They can't continue to ignore that market, and no, upscaling WP is not something they should have done. I for one, am glad to be getting the full power of Windows in tablet form.

Make a separate (but similar) UI for tablets-only, running on the same code base for developer reasons. Seriously, there is a reason why different devices have different UIs, controls, etc - the one-size-fits-all approach never works.

They should have made Metro/Modern "responsive" just as many websites are now becoming "responsive". It then caters to desktop, tablet and mobile user's needs individually. There are some compromises, but none anywhere near those involved in trying to make a tablet UI work for the other two.

Fourjays said,

Make a separate (but similar) UI for tablets-only, running on the same code base for developer reasons. Seriously, there is a reason why different devices have different UIs, controls, etc - the one-size-fits-all approach never works.

They should have made Metro/Modern "responsive" just as many websites are now becoming "responsive". It then caters to desktop, tablet and mobile user's needs individually. There are some compromises, but none anywhere near those involved in trying to make a tablet UI work for the other two.

But then what happens to touch screen desktops? How do you make an OS that is future proof, while clinging to an outdated paradigm? Something has to give here.

sanke1 said,

Was I even talking about tablets here? The desktop UI is not gelling well with Modern UI and Modern UI is very very limited on Desktop.

You are a textbook example of a Microsoft Fanboy!

Then don't use the Modern apps. They may be missing functionality right now, but that will change. These apps are going to be the future, there is no doubt they'll gain functionality.

Dot Matrix said,
But then what happens to touch screen desktops?

How many users of touchscreen desktops have you EVER met in real life?

MFH said,

How many users of touchscreen desktops have you EVER met in real life?

Quite a few actually. Aunt has one, my Dad has one, and friends at school have them too.

MFH said,

How many users of touchscreen desktops have you EVER met in real life?

I too have met a few. After the novelty of "feeding the fish" has worn off, they're back to using their keyboard & mouse.

Fourjays said,

Make a separate (but similar) UI for tablets-only

jeez lol
agreed.. and i thought that was obvious *by now
it would appear that is not the case lol

hillarious DotMatrix does everyone person you know have a touchscreen
for their desktop machine ?
I've never seen one not even in any of the retailers and pc shops in my city.
I call BS on that lol
And i have been employed as a pc repair man , web designer and network tech etc for companies and the general public including major international chains and branches of the Canadian Goverment. so i have had in my hands a LOT of machines and i can tell when people are making BS claims about the general public.

It's so simple... This is a half baked mess. Not purely for Desktop PC, not purely for Tablets... A not ready hybrid.

The whole concept is the first step of a greater plan. They have included a few desktop upgrades simply to justify the new version.

Let's see what Windows 9 is gonna bring. I feel they gonna separate the 'OSes' or they will give us a simple option to disable on PCs everything unneeded. It's crazy that I've to change my screen just to make a search... It became needlessly so complicated...

PC EliTiST said,
It's so simple... This is a half baked mess. Not purely for Desktop PC, not purely for Tablets... A not ready hybrid.

The whole concept is the first step of a greater plan. They have included a few desktop upgrades simply to justify the new version.

Let's see what Windows 9 is gonna bring. I feel they gonna separate the 'OSes' or they will give us a simple option to disable on PCs everything unneeded. It's crazy that I've to change my screen just to make a search... It became needlessly so complicated...

yeah its dumb because they had the crap separate before and now all of a sudden they want one single OS for a variety of hardware.

and options..
there are always tablet related crap i can enable or disable in previous versions
now its jammed down our throats..

i find it shocking how MS has stripped away options that users had
and Fanboys and cheerleaders defend MS for basicly taking away options ?
How weird is that ?
They wind up coming across like wacko nazi's trying to control everyone
Do it my way or else !!!

While i can understand what the`ve done, i think a much better option would have been to have a hot corner with a physical tile present all the time. So no matter what app your on or even desktop then you either touch the small square or click it and the new start screen appears. If you could see it all the time you wouldn`t miss it (no pun intended ).
The only way it wouldn`t be visable is if an app/program asked for full screen rights...

Riggers said,
While i can understand what the`ve done, i think a much better option would have been to have a hot corner with a physical tile present all the time. So no matter what app your on or even desktop then you either touch the small square or click it and the new start screen appears. If you could see it all the time you wouldn`t miss it (no pun intended ).
The only way it wouldn`t be visable is if an app/program asked for full screen rights...

You mean a large start button? That's worse than not having the start button.

This is a good "whine". Actual issues instead of just ranting about something because they are too lazy to learn it.

The "tutorial" is a huge facepalm. It's as if they just put it there so that they can say that they put a tutorial.

The click and miss:
- Since I use the keyboard most of the time, I am only using the mouse to get to the start menu when I'm too lazy and just using the mouse and when you're in that state of laziness, the 'miss' becomes more and more annoying

Start Screen:
- I'm one of those who either like this or don't really care. One of my few concerns apart from what is mentioned above is the inability to move multiple shortcuts at the same time. It's time wasting to set it up after you've installed so many applications. It would have been good if a popup that asks you which group you want your icon to be placed is present when you pin an app on the start screen.

TL;DR: I like it overall simply because most of the concerns that I've read are from mouse users or that certain concerns are on parts that I don't use that much, but I don't think Windows will be a bust.

Yesterday I played seriously for the first time with Win 8 on an old desktop and fell madly in love with the Windows key. I feel sorry for anybody who has to use a touch screen.

rdmiller said,
Yesterday I played seriously for the first time with Win 8 on an old desktop and fell madly in love with the Windows key. I feel sorry for anybody who has to use a touch screen.

My keyboard doesn't have Windows keys, I'd be stuck with ctrl+esc.

Wishful thinking on the 2014 thing, but I do suspect the future direction of modernUI and microsofts long term plans will come to bare in win9 and really tie things together for the desktops users. Unfortunately until then (or perhaps win8 sp1) its hard to argue that the win8 UI isn't more useful for tablets than desktops in its current iteration.

I really don't understand why Microsoft removed the start menu. I mean, I get that Metro is now a part of the OS and its all touch screen orientated, but the desktop isn't touch optimised in the slightest yet they've left that in - so why remove the start menu?
In fact, I see no reason why they couldn't have left both the start menu button AND the start screen in there. Click the start button to bring up the menu and the mouseover the bottom left to bring up the start screen. That one change would have made Windows 8 and instant winner for most people.
Yes, we know the numerous reasons for favouring a start screen over a start menu but the reality is that each server their own purpose and when you use one in the wrong environment, it just doesn't hold up as well.

Kushan said,
I really don't understand why Microsoft removed the start menu. I mean, I get that Metro is now a part of the OS and its all touch screen orientated, but the desktop isn't touch optimised in the slightest yet they've left that in - so why remove the start menu?
In fact, I see no reason why they couldn't have left both the start menu button AND the start screen in there. Click the start button to bring up the menu and the mouseover the bottom left to bring up the start screen. That one change would have made Windows 8 and instant winner for most people.
Yes, we know the numerous reasons for favouring a start screen over a start menu but the reality is that each server their own purpose and when you use one in the wrong environment, it just doesn't hold up as well.

I'm not gonna talk about the start menu vs. start screen. It's been discussed so many times on the forum so my comment is on the "having both on left corner"

Err, have you read the "click and miss" part or maybe you aren't experiencing it but I think putting both in there will be worse. Just replace IE with Start menu on the article above

Kushan said,
I really don't understand why Microsoft removed the start menu. I mean, I get that Metro is now a part of the OS and its all touch screen orientated, but the desktop isn't touch optimised in the slightest yet they've left that in - so why remove the start menu?

They could have also simply left the Start button and had it open the new Start Panel. Getting rid of the button completely and replacing it with an invisible pixel you have to click was just stupid.

TRC said,

They could have also simply left the Start button and had it open the new Start Panel. Getting rid of the button completely and replacing it with an invisible pixel you have to click was just stupid.

Wasn't there a statistic presented that proves that only a small number of users use the Start button? I remember reading it somewhere on the forum.

grayscale said,

Wasn't there a statistic presented that proves that only a small number of users use the Start button? I remember reading it somewhere on the forum.

Sinofsky said this, but I don't remember seeing the proof. He was just trying to make the Start screen look better imo.

Neobond said,

Sinofsky said this, but I don't remember seeing the proof. He was just trying to make the Start screen look better imo.

So, he's a liar now. Got it.

grayscale said,

I'm not gonna talk about the start menu vs. start screen. It's been discussed so many times on the forum so my comment is on the "having both on left corner"

Err, have you read the "click and miss" part or maybe you aren't experiencing it but I think putting both in there will be worse. Just replace IE with Start menu on the article above

Try W8Start
https://github.com/JustBuild/W8Start

Kushan said,
I really don't understand why Microsoft removed the start menu. I mean, I get that Metro is now a part of the OS and its all touch screen orientated, but the desktop isn't touch optimised in the slightest yet they've left that in - so why remove the start menu?
In fact, I see no reason why they couldn't have left both the start menu button AND the start screen in there. Click the start button to bring up the menu and the mouseover the bottom left to bring up the start screen. That one change would have made Windows 8 and instant winner for most people.
Yes, we know the numerous reasons for favouring a start screen over a start menu but the reality is that each server their own purpose and when you use one in the wrong environment, it just doesn't hold up as well.

This has been answered MANY times. According to +Brandon Live;

"The start menu you're referring to had a lot of bugs because it wasn't kept in sync with other changes in the platform (i.e. MFU was totally broken, for one). It could not launch Metro style applications. It had no means to even represent them, because Metro style apps provide different resources. Its search infrastructure was similarly incompatible, didn't support new localization features, etc. It did not support our modern DPI scaling mechanism. It had problems with the new multi-mon features (i.e. secondary task bars). And these are just the things I remember off the top of my head. And then, even if we had put in all that effort (or just enough to keep it stumbling along), and sacrificed other features or overall quality, it would have created a disjointed experience which have been awful to use and to support.

Contrary to what you may think, we don't make these decisions on a whim."

- http://www.neowin.net/forum/to...iew__findpost__p__595048551

There's your answer. There is nothing worth saving in the start menu besides app pinning and Search, and Windows 8 has both.

Dot Matrix said,

There's your answer. There is nothing worth saving in the start menu besides app pinning and Search, and Windows 8 has both.

I'm sorry, Dot, but the greatest feature I used in Windows 7 was Jumplists for pinned apps in the Start menu and that functionality is completely gone, except if you pin an app to the taskbar. Additionally, search in Windows 8 is great if you know the keyboard shortcut for settings and files. Otherwise, you can start your search, and if you're looking for a file or a setting, you have to go over there and click it. Plus, and I know everybody says that no one uses it, I liked having a cascading Control Panel, Documents, and Administrative Tools off the Start menu. You can enable them in Windows 8's Start screen (if you can find where that's enabled), but then it just drops them on your Start Screen, as opposed to a nice clean additional flyout menu from your Start menu. So please, maybe for you there's nothing to save in the Start menu, but for me there's much more. I'm assuming they came up with this idea of having Jumplists for pinned apps (like Word, Excel, etc.) based on telemetry. I loved it; I thought it was such a useful feature. But now it's gone.

Stephen, excellent article. I think I have to agree with all your points about Windows 8. After installing it from my Technet subscription, I honestly think I'm going to leave it and go back to Windows 7. I know it sounds childish, but I really miss my desktop gadgets, and when I tried to install the Adam Casey Desktop clock, there's no way possible! So much stuff was yanked out of Windows 8 from 7, it's really jarring.

Dot Matrix said,

This has been answered MANY times. According to +Brandon Live;

"The start menu you're referring to had a lot of bugs because it wasn't kept in sync with other changes in the platform (i.e. MFU was totally broken, for one). It could not launch Metro style applications. It had no means to even represent them, because Metro style apps provide different resources. Its search infrastructure was similarly incompatible, didn't support new localization features, etc. It did not support our modern DPI scaling mechanism. It had problems with the new multi-mon features (i.e. secondary task bars). And these are just the things I remember off the top of my head. And then, even if we had put in all that effort (or just enough to keep it stumbling along), and sacrificed other features or overall quality, it would have created a disjointed experience which have been awful to use and to support.

Contrary to what you may think, we don't make these decisions on a whim."

- http://www.neowin.net/forum/to...iew__findpost__p__595048551

There's your answer. There is nothing worth saving in the start menu besides app pinning and Search, and Windows 8 has both.

Lots of things in "Desktop" Windows 8 have no support for Metro apps. You can't alt-tab metro apps (Yes, I know there's Winkey+tab but that's new) and, as far as I'm aware, you can't create icons or pinned Metro apps. That's my point about the desktop being an almost separate experience from Metro, it seems almost designed to be that way so why are they trying to unify them in one single area?

devHead said,

I'm sorry, Dot, but the greatest feature I used in Windows 7 was Jumplists for pinned apps in the Start menu and that functionality is completely gone, except if you pin an app to the taskbar. Additionally, search in Windows 8 is great if you know the keyboard shortcut for settings and files. Otherwise, you can start your search, and if you're looking for a file or a setting, you have to go over there and click it. Plus, and I know everybody says that no one uses it, I liked having a cascading Control Panel, Documents, and Administrative Tools off the Start menu. You can enable them in Windows 8's Start screen (if you can find where that's enabled), but then it just drops them on your Start Screen, as opposed to a nice clean additional flyout menu from your Start menu. So please, maybe for you there's nothing to save in the Start menu, but for me there's much more. I'm assuming they came up with this idea of having Jumplists for pinned apps (like Word, Excel, etc.) based on telemetry. I loved it; I thought it was such a useful feature. But now it's gone.

That's just the way things go. Again, the old Start Menu had too many flaws with it to justify its continued existence. If you look closely to those flyouts, you'll see that they don't match up with the rest of the Start Menu, with the icons being squeezed closer together. Nothing in the personalization features changed that, hinting that it was older code.

Cascading flyouts kinda lost their functionality when the tools can simply be pinned to the Start screen.

Kushan said,

Lots of things in "Desktop" Windows 8 have no support for Metro apps. You can't alt-tab metro apps (Yes, I know there's Winkey+tab but that's new) and, as far as I'm aware, you can't create icons or pinned Metro apps. That's my point about the desktop being an almost separate experience from Metro, it seems almost designed to be that way so why are they trying to unify them in one single area?

Yes, you can ALT-TAB Modern apps. WinKey+TAB no longer works, Flip 3D was stripped from this release.

Kushan said,
I really don't understand why Microsoft removed the start menu. I mean, I get that Metro is now a part of the OS and its all touch screen orientated, but the desktop isn't touch optimised in the slightest yet they've left that in - so why remove the start menu?
In fact, I see no reason why they couldn't have left both the start menu button AND the start screen in there. Click the start button to bring up the menu and the mouseover the bottom left to bring up the start screen. That one change would have made Windows 8 and instant winner for most people.
Yes, we know the numerous reasons for favouring a start screen over a start menu but the reality is that each server their own purpose and when you use one in the wrong environment, it just doesn't hold up as well.

Well, microsoft is going to learn the hard way when their OS gets slammed and suffers from poor sales.

superconductive said,

Well, microsoft is going to learn the hard way when their OS gets slammed and suffers from poor sales.

Over a missing Start Menu? Please.

TCLN Ryster said,

So, he's a liar now. Got it.

Yeah I wouldn't put it past them to distort the truth to push their own agenda.

abysal said,

Yeah I wouldn't put it past them to distort the truth to push their own agenda.

Nobody knows for sure, but that's the point. You're calling them liars without ANY proof or evidence to the contrary whatsoever.

Dot Matrix said,

Over a missing Start Menu? Please.

Yup the start menu is the only reason EVERYONE hates Windows 8 (that don't like it)

Why did you even post that ? you made no sense whatsoever.

and +TCLN Ryster
on the other hand is solid dead on ..good point !
fair is fair. gotta be honest as possible i think

TCLN Ryster said,

Nobody knows for sure, but that's the point. You're calling them liars without ANY proof or evidence to the contrary whatsoever.

They only said he's probably lying basing on the fact he provided no proof and has an agenda to push they never stated he was lying

Just stating what sinofsky alleges doesn't implicitly call him a liar just a lacking of proof to support those claims and perhaps some form of doubt due to agenda pushing

akav0id said,

I believe 7 is going to become the new XP

Can't remember when, but a while ago there was an interview with a window 8 developer. He basically was saying that windows 7 was such a solid and successful release that they could afford to take a big risk this coming cycle.
Well, in my view that risk isn't going to pay off!! Doing something bold and ignoring all the user feedback and media isn't the road to success.

superconductive said,

Can't remember when, but a while ago there was an interview with a window 8 developer. He basically was saying that windows 7 was such a solid and successful release that they could afford to take a big risk this coming cycle.
Well, in my view that risk isn't going to pay off!! Doing something bold and ignoring all the user feedback and media isn't the road to success.

They've been doing everything but ignoring users. Simply put, they have a game plan, and want to stick with it, but a lot of user input help create some of the features you see in Windows 8 right now.

If Microsoft were to listen to power users though, we would still be using Windows 95 7th edition, because no one would want anything to change.

Dot Matrix said,

If Microsoft were to listen to power users though, we would still be using Windows 95 7th edition, because no one would want anything to change.

If that was true, Windows 7 would not have been the success it is.

They need a few updates, but otherwise Windows 8 is an amazing OS. Really fast and a lot of new features (ISO mounting, better task manager, etc.)

drazgoosh said,
They need a few updates, but otherwise Windows 8 is an amazing OS. Really fast and a lot of new features (ISO mounting, better task manager, etc.)

The way I see it, some of the users or "haters" who actually make sense are those who find the OS half-baked. It's not that they want to stick with the old way. It's just that an incomplete or messy "new way" makes the transition harder.

drazgoosh said,
They need a few updates, but otherwise Windows 8 is an amazing OS. Really fast and a lot of new features (ISO mounting, better task manager, etc.)

I may be in the minority, but I'm loving it so far. The desktop ui could use some work, but the start screen and the performance are really great.
Whenever I'm on the go or on the road, I never have to open the browser again to check up on the little things when I could just look at the start screen and watch the live tiles give me the quick info I need. I don't know about anyone else, but I find windows 8 more efficient to use than any other windows os so far.

Go ahead, bash me.

grayscale said,

The way I see it, some of the users or "haters" who actually make sense are those who find the OS half-baked. It's not that they want to stick with the old way. It's just that an incomplete or messy "new way" makes the transition harder.

This is exactly the way I feel. When the concepts were first mooted I was all for it, but since then it has been a gradual descent into utter disappointment. I want a new OS, but I want it to be finished first.

grayscale said,

The way I see it, some of the users or "haters" who actually make sense are those who find the OS half-baked. It's not that they want to stick with the old way. It's just that an incomplete or messy "new way" makes the transition harder.

Therein lies the fatal flaw of MS's reasoning--don't give users the choice of which UI to use with Windows-8, i.e., force them to use the touch-centric Metro UI even though they don't have touch screens or use touch-screen applications.

TsarNikky said,

Therein lies the fatal flaw of MS's reasoning--don't give users the choice of which UI to use with Windows-8, i.e., force them to use the touch-centric Metro UI even though they don't have touch screens or use touch-screen applications.

I don't see your point. The only thing closest to the "touch-centric" UI here are the start screen and charms. Something you won't spend hours staring or working on.

aviator189 said,

I may be in the minority, but I'm loving it so far. The desktop ui could use some work, but the start screen and the performance are really great.
Whenever I'm on the go or on the road, I never have to open the browser again to check up on the little things when I could just look at the start screen and watch the live tiles give me the quick info I need. I don't know about anyone else, but I find windows 8 more efficient to use than any other windows os so far.

Go ahead, bash me.

Windows 8 was designed to be a mobile os. So it makes sense that you would like it on the go (I probably would too). But desktop users have been thrown under the bus.

aviator189 said,

I may be in the minority, but I'm loving it so far. The desktop ui could use some work, but the start screen and the performance are really great.
Whenever I'm on the go or on the road, I never have to open the browser again to check up on the little things when I could just look at the start screen and watch the live tiles give me the quick info I need. I don't know about anyone else, but I find windows 8 more efficient to use than any other windows os so far.

Go ahead, bash me.

No need to bash here, I think everything you said is reasonable, unlike some other Windows 8 lovers on here.

TsarNikky said,

Therein lies the fatal flaw of MS's reasoning--don't give users the choice of which UI to use with Windows-8, i.e., force them to use the touch-centric Metro UI even though they don't have touch screens or use touch-screen applications.

You are not in any way "forced" to use any particular apps (touch-centric or otherwise).

abysal said,

No need to bash here, I think everything you said is reasonable, unlike some other Windows 8 lovers on here.

It goes both ways I just try to ignore those with too much love or too much hatred on the product

want windows 8 to work for you? buy a surface tablet, or another companies when they appear

otherwise stick with windows 7 on your home pc, unless you update to a touch screen monitor...

mulligan2k said,
want windows 8 to work for you? buy a surface tablet, or another companies when they appear

otherwise stick with windows 7 on your home pc, unless you update to a touch screen monitor...

...And you will miss a lot of new features.

Edited by ~Johnny, Aug 19 2012, 6:02pm :

mulligan2k said,
want windows 8 to work for you? buy a surface tablet, or another companies when they appear

otherwise stick with windows 7 on your home pc, unless you update to a touch screen monitor...

or you could man up

Anthonyd said,
And you will miss a lot of new features.

Having looked at and tried Windows 8, there's not much in the way of new "features" worth it to me. Sure, it might be a little snappier under the hood, but it's the UI that's going to cause the OS to crash from a public perspective. Fine for tablets, horrible for normal PC systems.

Edited by ~Johnny, Aug 19 2012, 6:23pm :

Anthonyd said,
And you will miss a lot of new features.

Just how important are those new features for desktop and laptop users who have serious work to do in a traditional office setting using traditional applications?

Edited by ~Johnny, Aug 19 2012, 6:18pm :

TsarNikky said,
Just how important are those new features for desktop and laptop users who have serious work to do in a traditional office setting using traditional applications?
A lot if you need version control, thin provisioning and the increased productivity by the new tools built in Windows.

Anthonyd said,
A lot if you need version control, thin provisioning and the increased productivity by the new tools built in Windows.

Increased productivity? Ummm, no. The other points I can agree with

Anthonyd said,
A lot if you need version control, thin provisioning and the increased productivity by the new tools built in Windows.

Things that were simple and used to take 1 second in windows 7 are now complicated and counter-intuitive in windows 8. I'll give you an example-- how do you shut off your computer from within metro?

KSib said,
Increased productivity? Ummm, no. The other points I can agree with
Give an example? Here are few examples.
The fact that you can pin many apps into the start screen instead of a couple of apps inside the start menu is a good example of how you get increased productivity.
The OS is faster and more responsive in general, you spend less time waiting for it (ex: when removing USB drives), it also boots a lot faster.
You have the Office Ribbon inside File explorer (very useful, especially for search).
And so on, the list is long.

superconductive said,
Things that were simple and used to take 1 second in windows 7 are now complicated and counter-intuitive in windows 8. I'll give you an example-- how do you shut off your computer from within metro?
Charmbar> settings > shutdown. It's not that hard for something done once per day (or none at all if you are using the physical power button).

Anthonyd said,
Give an example? Here are few examples.
The fact that you can pin many apps into the start screen instead of a couple of apps inside the start menu is a good example of how you get increased productivity.
The OS is faster and more responsive in general, you spend less time waiting for it (ex: when removing USB drives), it also boots a lot faster.
You have the Office Ribbon inside File explorer (very useful, especially for search).
And so on, the list is long.

Charmbar> settings > shutdown. It's not that hard for something done once per day (or none at all if you are using the physical power button).

I apparently didn't give you enough examples.

How do you get out of the lock screen?
How do you close a program?
How do you change the power settings?

These are just a few of the simple things that have been made more difficult. Watch this video for more:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIMuJTrxuhQ

And please don't answer with how to actually do those things. Those questions are rhetorical and meant to illustrate how counter-intuitive windows has become.

superconductive said,

Things that were simple and used to take 1 second in windows 7 are now complicated and counter-intuitive in windows 8. I'll give you an example-- how do you shut off your computer from within metro?

I remember making a comment on the MSDN blogs about this particular issue.

http://goo.gl/fDvuH

I basically stated that I thought that the power button in settings would take me to some power options, due to it being in the settings panel. I did not expect it to actually show me the shutdown functions.

superconductive said,

And please don't answer with how to actually do those things. Those questions are rhetorical and meant to illustrate how counter-intuitive windows has become.
It's not counter intuitive, it's just different to how it used to work but your brain is tricking you.
Spend more than 10min playing with it and you get used to the new functions quite rapidly.

Also the fact that you are asking how to close a program is enough to prove that you are miss informed about how Windows 8 works.

Anthonyd said,
It's not counter intuitive, it's just different to how it used to work but your brain is tricking you.
Spend more than 10min playing with it and you get used to the new functions quite rapidly.

No W8 on the desktop is profoundly counter intuitive, bewilderingly counter productive, and inexplicably breaks 30 years of established best practices (INVISIBLE master controls?! in a GUI!?) for no logical reason whatsoever.

excalpius said,

No W8 on the desktop is profoundly counter intuitive, bewilderingly counter productive, and inexplicably breaks 30 years of established best practices (INVISIBLE master controls?! in a GUI!?) for no logical reason whatsoever.


^
Figure 1 : The internet ragekid posting non-constructive arguments as the one and holy truth.

Anthonyd said,
And you will miss a lot of new features, stupid.

And BANG! The "stupid" had to come out hey?! People who don't think like you are stupid, nice....

superconductive said,

I apparently didn't give you enough examples.

How do you get out of the lock screen?
How do you close a program?
How do you change the power settings?

These are just a few of the simple things that have been made more difficult. Watch this video for more:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIMuJTrxuhQ

And please don't answer with how to actually do those things. Those questions are rhetorical and meant to illustrate how counter-intuitive windows has become.

1) press enter
2) alt + f4 (20 years old combo !)
3) win + w, power

Dead easy.

sjaak327 said,

1) press enter
2) alt + f4 (20 years old combo !)
3) win + w, power

Dead easy.

He said " don't answer with how to actually do those things", you wouldn't prove him that he is wrong, wouldn't you?

Anthonyd said,
...And you will miss a lot of new features.

You miss hardly nothing really cept for a few that should be ported over to Win7 like the multi monitor additions. I see no reason why they should keep that from Win when all it would take is a Service Pack for update roll up and new additions much like how XP SP2 did back in the day.

superconductive said,

I apparently didn't give you enough examples.

How do you get out of the lock screen?

Click or press any key. You know, same as the screen savers of old.

How do you close a program?

Same as always for desktop apps.
For Win8 apps, you generally don't, but there are several easy ways if you need to.

How do you change the power settings?

Keeping in mind that most people would never do such a thing, you do the same way as Windows 7 (clicking the battery icon in the desktop taskbar is probably the easiest way, or just search for "power").


And please don't answer with how to actually do those things. Those questions are rhetorical and meant to illustrate how counter-intuitive windows has become.

Different does not mean "counter-intuitive." Pushing the power button (or closing the lid on a laptop) is intuitive. Having the power settings be correct out-of-the-box is intuitive. A lot of really familiar concepts (like closing apps) are leftover kludges from a time when computers weren't powerful enough and software wasn't advanced enough to work well without them.

Don't confuse familiar with intuitive.

Brandon Live said,

Different does not mean "counter-intuitive." Pushing the power button (or closing the lid on a laptop) is intuitive. Having the power settings be correct out-of-the-box is intuitive. A lot of really familiar concepts (like closing apps) are leftover kludges from a time when computers weren't powerful enough and software wasn't advanced enough to work well without them.

Don't confuse familiar with intuitive.


I disagree. It's alot more than just different. Many things have been placed in unfamiliar places, in a way that doesn't make sense. Like- why are half of the settings are in metro, the other half are in control panel? Why is power off under settings? Why is there no obvious way to get back to start screen from within desktop? I can imagine an average user will often find themselves looking up how to do things they used to be able to do easily.

sjaak327 said,

1) press enter
2) alt + f4 (20 years old combo !)
3) win + w, power

Dead easy.

because we all know that grandmas and grandpas remember keyboard shortcuts....

superconductive said,

because we all know that grandmas and grandpas remember keyboard shortcuts....

i get so sick of hearing that as an excuse for Win 8..

I have a nice 1080p Samsung Monitor sitting on my desk and a brand name
"Lazy Boy" recliner chair positioned in front of my desk to go with my wireless
keyboard and mouse. And i either lean forward to use the keyboard or sit back in the chair and use one hand on the mouse on the stand sitting to the right of my chair. that way i can lean back and relax and use on hand to navigate around..
So explain to me why what works for decades for me now has to be changed
around so that i need to sit up and start hitting key combo's (if i can remember them) for things that would require a mouse click.. its called counter-intuitive.

I'll let some of you "man up" as i have seen said many times lately..
while your doing that i'll be rockin my Lazy Boy chair
I can even pull the arm back and lay it out flat LOL
My setup owns !

superconductive said,

because we all know that grandmas and grandpas remember keyboard shortcuts....

because we all know that grandmas and grandpas tinker with power settings

superconductive said,

I disagree. It's alot more than just different. Many things have been placed in unfamiliar places, in a way that doesn't make sense. Like- why are half of the settings are in metro, the other half are in control panel? Why is power off under settings? Why is there no obvious way to get back to start screen from within desktop? I can imagine an average user will often find themselves looking up how to do things they used to be able to do easily.

Brandon Live said,

Don't confuse familiar with intuitive.


Also, it's not half and half. Those two in overlaps. Metro CP has most of the basic settings while the desktop CP has it all.

Anthonyd said,
...And you will miss a lot of new features.

But you have other features, wich Microsoft has removed. And there's a lot !

Anthonyd said,
Give an example? Here are few examples.
The fact that you can pin many apps into the start screen instead of a couple of apps inside the start menu is a good example of how you get increased productivity.
The OS is faster and more responsive in general, you spend less time waiting for it (ex: when removing USB drives), it also boots a lot faster.
You have the Office Ribbon inside File explorer (very useful, especially for search).
And so on, the list is long.

Charmbar> settings > shutdown. It's not that hard for something done once per day (or none at all if you are using the physical power button).

"The fact that you can pin many apps into the start screen instead of a couple of apps inside the start menu is a good example of how you get increased productivity."
Desktop screen will do the job better...
"The OS is faster and more responsive in general"
Was Windows 7 laggy in any way o.0?
"You have the Office Ribbon inside File explorer (very useful, especially for search)."
I perfer using keyboard shortcuts. Using Windows 8 for sometime already I still never touhed the ribbon....

The only point of windows 8 to me is faster boot and a change in UI. Got bored of Aero

I am Not PCyr said,

i get so sick of hearing that as an excuse for Win 8..

I have a nice 1080p Samsung Monitor sitting on my desk and a brand name
"Lazy Boy" recliner chair positioned in front of my desk to go with my wireless
keyboard and mouse. And i either lean forward to use the keyboard or sit back in the chair and use one hand on the mouse on the stand sitting to the right of my chair. that way i can lean back and relax and use on hand to navigate around..
So explain to me why what works for decades for me now has to be changed
around so that i need to sit up and start hitting key combo's (if i can remember them) for things that would require a mouse click.. its called counter-intuitive.

I'll let some of you "man up" as i have seen said many times lately..
while your doing that i'll be rockin my Lazy Boy chair
I can even pull the arm back and lay it out flat LOL
My setup owns !

Well I have 3 Asus 27" monitors and a 50" plasma connected to my rig. I do not have a "Lazy Boy" but I do have a really nice Franklin Power Bed Recliner and with my wireless keyboard and mouse I have no problem at all navigating Windows 8 UI. In fact everything is faster in Windows 8 from startup to running app or game I want to shutdown period. I do not understand what the big deal is really if I want to run an app with Windows 8 I click the Metro menu and scroll to the app I want and left click, however if I want to run an app with Windows 7 I have to click the start menu then all programs scroll to the folder I want then click the folder scroll to the app name then finally click the app I want to run. This goes for any thing I want to run that does not have a shortcut on the desktop. The fact is every thing and I mean every thing is faster in Windows 8 with no exception get used to or get left behind.

You know you can make a tile for shutting down or restarting right?

superconductive said,

Things that were simple and used to take 1 second in windows 7 are now complicated and counter-intuitive in windows 8. I'll give you an example-- how do you shut off your computer from within metro?

TheFightSayeth said,
You know you can make a tile for shutting down or restarting right?

Why should people have to make a tile (if they even know how to) for something that shouldn't have been so strange and hidden out of the box?
Win8 as a tablet OS (and phone OS) will probably be very good, as a desktop OS it's a POS.

Hackersoft MS MVP said,

Why should people have to make a tile (if they even know how to) for something that shouldn't have been so strange and hidden out of the box?
Win8 as a tablet OS (and phone OS) will probably be very good, as a desktop OS it's a POS.
The funny thing is that it's as 'hidden' on the PC than on the tablet.
What makes you think that PC users are so dumb that they won't be able to find the shutdown button unlike tablets users?