WP8 Juggernaut Alpha device gets high benchmark score

Earlier this month, a list of possible Windows Phone 8 devices showed up on the Internet. One of the names that was on the list was named Juggernaut Alpha. It was a name that, quite frankly, sounded like it was going to drop kick us into the ground.

Now it appears that a phone with that same code name has found its way onto the WP Bench benchmarking website. The Juggernaut Alpha showed a final score that was about 50 percent higher than the current Windows Phone 7 champion, the HTC Titan.

This is almost certainly because there is a more powerful processor inside this still mysterious WP8 device compared to the current WP7 lineup; it's likely that it is using a dual core Qualcomm Snapdragon processor.

That's still all we know about Juggernaut Alpha; we don't know which Windows Phone device maker has created this product with the awesome name. However, we sadly suspect that Juggernaut Alpha is a code name that's being used until the device finally ships. It's likely to have a much more mundane name when it comes out, hopefully sometime later this fall.

We should note that is possible to spoof these names, so take it with a grain of salt.

Via: WMPoweruser.com
Source: WP Bench web site | Image via WP Bench

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I'm not sure if this is that impressive. Current Windows Phones aren't really top-notch when it comes to hardware speed. If this Juggernaut has a faster (perhaps dualcore) CPU than current Windows Phones with an updated GPU and slightly faster memory you could interpret this score as an indication that code execution on the platform itself didn't actually get any faster.

I'm not really that experienced with the speed of Windows Phone when it comes to running C# code, but these sort of benchmarks really mean nothing if nothing about the phone specs is known. Especially not since WP Bench probably isn't multithreaded.

On the other side it is also a nice signal, since it might mean that if WP Bench works on a Windows Phone 8 device almost all other Windows Phone 7(.5) apps will probably also work without requiring any change and still perform faster than they did before.

Oh well, all we can do is wait I suppose. I'm curious to see what MS did with Windows Phone 8, I seriously hope there will be at least some visual improvements aside the tiny-tile option.

Ambroos said,
I'm not sure if this is that impressive. Current Windows Phones aren't really top-notch when it comes to hardware speed.

Yet, they feel as smooth and responsive as many of the other phone on the market. Experience trumps hardware capabilities.

If this Juggernaut has a faster (perhaps dualcore) CPU than current Windows Phones with an updated GPU and slightly faster memory you could interpret this score as an indication that code execution on the platform itself didn't actually get any faster.

Are you serious? Obviously you're proposing that there is a linear correlation between all benchmarks and hardware capabilities.

I'm not really that experienced with the speed of Windows Phone when it comes to running C# code, but these sort of benchmarks really mean nothing if nothing about the phone specs is known. Especially not since WP Bench probably isn't multithreaded.

Again, are you serious? Speed with C#? Multithreaded? Honestly... System.Threading has been available on Windows Phone since 7. Just because its a single core device doesn't mean it doesn't support multithreading... most people used to have single core computers way back in the day

On the other side it is also a nice signal, since it might mean that if WP Bench works on a Windows Phone 8 device almost all other Windows Phone 7(.5) apps will probably also work without requiring any change and still perform faster than they did before.

Insight is your middle name!

Oh well, all we can do is wait I suppose. I'm curious to see what MS did with Windows Phone 8, I seriously hope there will be at least some visual improvements aside the tiny-tile option.

Spoken like someone who a) doesn't know the platform and b) doesn't know MS has shown to be coming.

MrHumpty said,
* responses *

Okay, I am possibly wrong about many things and I don't really know how Windows Phone works. I have on the other hand seen what's new so far in Windows Phone 8 and was hardly impressed. It's also quite late so it's perfectly possible half of my points is moot, and I would like to apologize for that.

But you have to admit that those benchmarks don't say a lot without knowing hardware specs.

Ambroos said,
I'm not sure if this is that impressive. Current Windows Phones aren't really top-notch when it comes to hardware speed. If this Juggernaut has a faster (perhaps dualcore) CPU than current Windows Phones with an updated GPU and slightly faster memory you could interpret this score as an indication that code execution on the platform itself didn't actually get any faster.

I'm not really that experienced with the speed of Windows Phone when it comes to running C# code, but these sort of benchmarks really mean nothing if nothing about the phone specs is known. Especially not since WP Bench probably isn't multithreaded.

On the other side it is also a nice signal, since it might mean that if WP Bench works on a Windows Phone 8 device almost all other Windows Phone 7(.5) apps will probably also work without requiring any change and still perform faster than they did before.

Oh well, all we can do is wait I suppose. I'm curious to see what MS did with Windows Phone 8, I seriously hope there will be at least some visual improvements aside the tiny-tile option.


Windows phones achieve better smoothness quality and do everything faster than what other phones do with just one processor when the other phones use at least core processors. So, this is quite impressive, imo.

Ambroos said,

Okay, I am possibly wrong about many things and I don't really know how Windows Phone works.

Then why make any speculation about how it works?

I have on the other hand seen what's new so far in Windows Phone 8 and was hardly impressed.

Quite frankly I assume you don't have the skillset to understand what has been released about WP8. It was developer information. Almost no UI/Consumer info has been released about the changes.

But you have to admit that those benchmarks don't say a lot without knowing hardware specs.

That was the insightful comment. Most benchmarks are useless w/o knowing hardware stats. However, showing an early alpha device clearly not running production code showing a 50% improvement over the current Cadillac device is impressive w/o a doubt.

Ambroos said,
I'm not sure if this is that impressive. Current Windows Phones aren't really top-notch when it comes to hardware speed. If this Juggernaut has a faster (perhaps dualcore) CPU than current Windows Phones with an updated GPU and slightly faster memory you could interpret this score as an indication that code execution on the platform itself didn't actually get any faster.

I'm not really that experienced with the speed of Windows Phone when it comes to running C# code, but these sort of benchmarks really mean nothing if nothing about the phone specs is known. Especially not since WP Bench probably isn't multithreaded.

On the other side it is also a nice signal, since it might mean that if WP Bench works on a Windows Phone 8 device almost all other Windows Phone 7(.5) apps will probably also work without requiring any change and still perform faster than they did before.

Oh well, all we can do is wait I suppose. I'm curious to see what MS did with Windows Phone 8, I seriously hope there will be at least some visual improvements aside the tiny-tile option.

Hardware speed is irrelevant...

If you have a OS on a 80386 that is 5x faster than an OS on a 80586 - the two generations of CPU performance are irrelevant to the user.

When Windows NT 4.0 was a solid 25% faster than Windows95 on the same hardware, the hardware was irrelevant in terms of end user application performance.

Microsoft has already demonstrated Windows 8 on ARM on a Dual Core equivalent to an iPad2, yet it was running IE 10 to 20 times faster than iOS and was running an ARM recompile of Office 2010 at desktop speeds, which is a far difference from an end user experience of trying to run Numbers on an iPad2, that just opening a 512kb file or scrolling can be a 'go get coffee' moment.


As Microsoft as demonstrated for years, and once again with the Smoked by WP7, the OS and the application platform is the most important aspect of end user performance.

There are numerous examples of this.

Look at the XBox 360, with a 'technically' slower CPU than a PS3, yet holds its own and outperforms the PS3 the majority of the time.

Or go closer to home, take a Windows 7 PC and benchmark it to Linux, there is a considerable difference, especially if you turn on the equivalent features available in Linux. Even a highly optimized OpenGL game will run FASTER on Windows 7, which isn't even factoring OpenGL is going to be 20% slower than a native DirectX application on Windows 7.


Windows 8 has a lot of 'tight' core technologies that NOBODY is talking about, from new scheduling of memory or the new video optimizations or the performance focused features of reducing CPU and RAM usage when needed for a gaming to even the 'device' specific core OS features of minimal RAM mode that allows Windows 8 to run well on 256mb of RAM, even though Microsoft does not expect this low level of system configuration outside 'embedded versions', it helps the system overall as RAM is consumed by applications and the OS handles the low memory situation very well. (It also doesn't freaking close Apps at random like Android does when it hits low RAM.)


Windows 8 has a lot of impressive things and being able to use the same code/kernel from phones to tablets to desktops to servers is a testament to the adaptability of the NT kernel and OS architecture.


Truly though, hardware means nothing, and the best example is in the WP7 world.

When WP7 was in the development and everyone heard it was going to be using the 1st generation SnapDragon CPU/GPU - the world thought it would be horribly slow and talked about the slow GPU, etc etc.

So Qualcomm with the QSD8250 and Adreno 200 (SnapDragon S1) had put out CPU and GPU performance numbers using a custom light optimized internal Linux build and an optimized Android build. Which is why the world was disappointed in the 'hardware' WP7 would be using.

However, when WP7 was being put together and Microsoft and Qualcomm built the OAL (HAL for WinCE) and the Adreno 200 video drivers, their GPU numbers alone were at minimum 5x the best numbers they got from their Android or Linux tests, and on fill rate and triangle/sec they were seeing 20x the performance in DirectX/XNA tests games. The CPU performance at the OS and Application level was also over 2x the Android/Linux benchmarks.

When WP7 launched, it had performance numbers in CPU and GPU tests that were 2x even the fast Android phones with much faster and newer processors.
**(Even the Samsung and other Android phones with impressive GPUs from the late 2010 early 2011 timeframe were not beating WP7 devices in gaming performance, all because of the difference of Android and OpenGL ES vs WP7/WinCe and DirectX.

Hardware performance is irrelevant when dealing with different OSes. Even when dealing with various generations and versions of the same OS, hardware again becomes irrelevant. It all comes down to how fast does the OS do XYZ or how fast does ABC Application run.


As for C# and running in the .NET environment. It does well, and depending on complexity of the software CAN outperform native C++.

This seems counterintuitive, but with added complexity comes overhead of managing aspects of the code that is often automatic and already managed in the CLI or in the nature of the language itself.

Objects for example in complex software are faster; in simple software they are slower because of their overhead.

In today's level of OSes and software, managed code can be faster, and even for casual developers sticking to Objects is almost always faster, and has a lot of benefits for future extensibility.

thenetavenger said,

Hardware speed is irrelevant...

If you have a OS on a 80386 that is 5x faster than an OS on a 80586 - the two generations of CPU performance are irrelevant to the user.

When Windows NT 4.0 was a solid 25% faster than Windows95 on the same hardware, the hardware was irrelevant in terms of end user application performance.

Microsoft has already demonstrated Windows 8 on ARM on a Dual Core equivalent to an iPad2, yet it was running IE 10 to 20 times faster than iOS and was running an ARM recompile of Office 2010 at desktop speeds, which is a far difference from an end user experience of trying to run Numbers on an iPad2, that just opening a 512kb file or scrolling can be a 'go get coffee' moment.


As Microsoft as demonstrated for years, and once again with the Smoked by WP7, the OS and the application platform is the most important aspect of end user performance.

There are numerous examples of this.

Look at the XBox 360, with a 'technically' slower CPU than a PS3, yet holds its own and outperforms the PS3 the majority of the time.

Or go closer to home, take a Windows 7 PC and benchmark it to Linux, there is a considerable difference, especially if you turn on the equivalent features available in Linux. Even a highly optimized OpenGL game will run FASTER on Windows 7, which isn't even factoring OpenGL is going to be 20% slower than a native DirectX application on Windows 7.


Windows 8 has a lot of 'tight' core technologies that NOBODY is talking about, from new scheduling of memory or the new video optimizations or the performance focused features of reducing CPU and RAM usage when needed for a gaming to even the 'device' specific core OS features of minimal RAM mode that allows Windows 8 to run well on 256mb of RAM, even though Microsoft does not expect this low level of system configuration outside 'embedded versions', it helps the system overall as RAM is consumed by applications and the OS handles the low memory situation very well. (It also doesn't freaking close Apps at random like Android does when it hits low RAM.)


Windows 8 has a lot of impressive things and being able to use the same code/kernel from phones to tablets to desktops to servers is a testament to the adaptability of the NT kernel and OS architecture.


Truly though, hardware means nothing, and the best example is in the WP7 world.

When WP7 was in the development and everyone heard it was going to be using the 1st generation SnapDragon CPU/GPU - the world thought it would be horribly slow and talked about the slow GPU, etc etc.

So Qualcomm with the QSD8250 and Adreno 200 (SnapDragon S1) had put out CPU and GPU performance numbers using a custom light optimized internal Linux build and an optimized Android build. Which is why the world was disappointed in the 'hardware' WP7 would be using.

However, when WP7 was being put together and Microsoft and Qualcomm built the OAL (HAL for WinCE) and the Adreno 200 video drivers, their GPU numbers alone were at minimum 5x the best numbers they got from their Android or Linux tests, and on fill rate and triangle/sec they were seeing 20x the performance in DirectX/XNA tests games. The CPU performance at the OS and Application level was also over 2x the Android/Linux benchmarks.

When WP7 launched, it had performance numbers in CPU and GPU tests that were 2x even the fast Android phones with much faster and newer processors.
**(Even the Samsung and other Android phones with impressive GPUs from the late 2010 early 2011 timeframe were not beating WP7 devices in gaming performance, all because of the difference of Android and OpenGL ES vs WP7/WinCe and DirectX.

Hardware performance is irrelevant when dealing with different OSes. Even when dealing with various generations and versions of the same OS, hardware again becomes irrelevant. It all comes down to how fast does the OS do XYZ or how fast does ABC Application run.


As for C# and running in the .NET environment. It does well, and depending on complexity of the software CAN outperform native C++.

This seems counterintuitive, but with added complexity comes overhead of managing aspects of the code that is often automatic and already managed in the CLI or in the nature of the language itself.

Objects for example in complex software are faster; in simple software they are slower because of their overhead.

In today's level of OSes and software, managed code can be faster, and even for casual developers sticking to Objects is almost always faster, and has a lot of benefits for future extensibility.

Very very well said from a very knowledgeable viewpoint!

aviator189 said,

Windows phones achieve better smoothness quality and do everything faster than what other phones do with just one processor when the other phones use at least core processors. So, this is quite impressive, imo.

I think you're confusing UI smoothness, something which has nothing to do with actual performance, with benchmarking and system performance. The UI appears smooth to the human eye if a constant fps is rendered on the GPU and vsynced to the display's refresh rate.

It has absolutely nothing to do with real performance. So when you and others say "WP, with only a single core, runs faster than other Dual/Quad core phones", that's complete and utter BS for the following reasons:

1. WP can't multi-task. Background apps are frozen. So it can only run one process at a time.
2. Any benchmark will tell you that a Dual/Quad is faster.
3. Even a supercomputer's UI can appear laggy, flickery, and inconsistent if it isn't rendered at a constant frame rate and synced to the display's refresh rate, ergo, the UI smoothness is not indicative of the system performance. They are often two separate measurements.
4. An example of how doing 3. can make the UI smooth even though the underlying system performance hasn't changed - Android's Project Butter and the Nexus 7 tablet. The same specs have been used in other devices which don't have such a smooth UI, yet the benchmarks (system performance) are comparable.

Now that's clear, Why isn't WP8 being benchmarked against iOS and Android devices?

MrHumpty said,

Yet, they feel as smooth and responsive as many of the other phone on the market.
Throw in a fps games like ShadowGun, you will find that even an Android is smoother....

Ambroos said,

I'm not really that experienced with the speed of Windows Phone when it comes to running C# code, but these sort of benchmarks really mean nothing if nothing about the phone specs is known. Especially not since WP Bench probably isn't multithreaded.

One word for you, Optimization.
WP OS can run on an older dual core, and make the device looks like it is running on the latest and greates dual core CPUs, but can you just imagine if this is actually running on the latest processor.

simplezz said,
...

No simplezz, the performance that people care about is what they actually *experience*. A fluid UI is absolutely a marker of good performance.

If it affects apps too, that certainly matters. But you cannot simply discount a fluid UI as 'not being related to performance'.

tanjiajun_34 said,
Throw in a fps games like ShadowGun, you will find that even an Android is smoother....
I've played very few games on my Titan (v1). The ones I have played have been quite good considering the platform exposed to game developers. Need For Speed: Hot Pursuit, for example, is a solid game with good performance. I'd venture a guess you've never played any games on a Windows Phone device so I'll fill you in, they work quite well, the problem isn't ability but selection. I expect that to change with WP8 and the new platform available.

simplezz said,
I think you're confusing UI smoothness, something which has nothing to do with actual performance, with benchmarking and system performance. The UI appears smooth to the human eye if a constant fps is rendered on the GPU and vsynced to the display's refresh rate.

It has absolutely nothing to do with real performance. So when you and others say "WP, with only a single core, runs faster than other Dual/Quad core phones", that's complete and utter BS for the following reasons:

1. WP can't multi-task. Background apps are frozen. So it can only run one process at a time.
2. Any benchmark will tell you that a Dual/Quad is faster.
3. Even a supercomputer's UI can appear laggy, flickery, and inconsistent if it isn't rendered at a constant frame rate and synced to the display's refresh rate, ergo, the UI smoothness is not indicative of the system performance. They are often two separate measurements.
4. An example of how doing 3. can make the UI smooth even though the underlying system performance hasn't changed - Android's Project Butter and the Nexus 7 tablet. The same specs have been used in other devices which don't have such a smooth UI, yet the benchmarks (system performance) are comparable.

Now that's clear, Why isn't WP8 being benchmarked against iOS and Android devices?


Good points. I'll still argue that UX is paramount to actual capabilities of the hardware. The question is does the platform offer a way for app developers to write smooth apps on restricted hardware. Microsoft has Android beat easily in that department it seems.

To answer your question, this is a private user initiated benchmark. My guess is you'll see it benchmarked when it comes closer to market.