ahhell Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Oh noes!!1!!1 The Christians are being persecuted again!1!!11 :rolleyes: I'm really sure that same people screaming about freespeech would have the same opinion if the kid was talking about how Allah changed his life....oh wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qdave Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 there is no such thing as free speech! So i don't see anything wrong with it wither. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheElite Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 This has nothing to do with tolerance, it's about what's appropriate. Having this student preach about his religion at a school assembly would be the equivalent of me turning up at your mosque on a Friday and telling you and your fellow travellers how silly I think you all are and how baseless your claims are. Apart from the fact that you wouldn't tolerate that I'm sure you would agree that it wouldn't be appropriate. Actually, no. That's not equivalent. He was speaking about his life in an institute of education. And there's no evidence that he was going to preach. One sentence and people start thinking a person is preaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fhpuqrgrpgvirzhpujbj Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 There's a difference between censoring and saving people the trouble of listening to completely fabricated BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakem1 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Actually, no. That's not equivalent. He was speaking about his life in an institute of education. And there's no evidence that he was going to preach. One sentence and people start thinking a person is preaching. You mean the sentence where the student said that he was prevented from talking about "how He can help you"? That's preaching and I'm not sure how much more evidence you need. Anyone talking at length about their religion is generally preachy and that has no place in a public school. Religion is anti-educational and doesn't belong in schools, it belongs in churches and the like so keep it there. Just as rational people don't belong in churches, religious people don't belong in schools. What is it about religious people that makes them think that it's alright to force their nonsense down everyone else's throats? If you want to believe in fantasies then good for you but keep it to yourselves. Oh, and stop complaining about how insulted you are when someone dismisses your evidence-lacking myths for what they are - fantasies. You're not special, you're not the chosen ones, you don't have any rights that surpass anyone else's rights and you certainly don't deserve any respect for believing what you claim to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrunkenBeard Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 This post wins the thread so far. So far ever body in favor of the school's censorship has thrown some sort of insult at religion. Utterly ridiculous. When you do that all you're really saying is that you're no better than the "REPENT OR SUFFER FOREVER OMG HELLFIRE AND BRIMSTONE LOL!" types that we all cannot stand. Why ARE you so threatened by the religious views of someone else? Atheists are supposed to be the calm and rational ones no? The ones that don't do all of the stereotypical bad things that the religious crowd do no? So like ... stop doing those things. :blink: The idea that someone can be offended because someone believes in something other than him/herself is pretty sad really. Are people REALLY that easily offended? If you just find religion to be silly or preposterous you should be amused, not angered. Though if his speech got preachy then no harm no foul the school is fine. If his speech was just him thanking his god and his feelings about how his god helped him then there is no reason for it to be censored. If you get offended by someone thanking their god or talking about their god in a manner that's not an attempt to convert you to their religion .. Well, good luck in life. If you think that only the uneducated believe in a god .. Well .. Don't research that subject please because you'll have a panic attack. :laugh: Seriously though I am honestly amused more than anything because we used to make fun of the super prude religious types that got offended by everything and now we've got the super PC atheist crowd that runs around screaming "AHHHH!!!! HE SAID THE GOD WORD! AHHHH!" :laugh: People are funny. Atheism is slowly becoming a religion. There's a difference between censoring and saving people the trouble of listening to completely fabricated BS. No there isn't. Maybe it's fabricated BS for you, but it's important for him. "saving people the trouble of listening to completely fabricated BS" ... /sigh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malleus Maleficarum Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 For the 'free-speech' crowd - would it be okay if he made a speech about Hitler and how belief in Hitler helped him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakem1 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Atheism is slowly becoming a religion. Don't be so silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richteralan Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 so the non-religion is the new religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southern Patriot Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 so the non-religion is the new religion. And religious intolerance has turned into intolerance of religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trag3dy Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Threatened is a strong word and I'm certainly not frightened by the nonsense that these religious types spout. Bored and dismayed would be a better way of describing the way I feel whenever I hear some idiot get up and describe how he's been "saved" by the lead character from his favourite fantasy story. There's no reason why people should have to be subjected to this claptrap in inappropriate places like public schools. Schools are supposed to be devoted to reason and learning and religion is the opposite of that. Those of you who are bleating on about freedom of speech are also forgetting that many freedoms are limited in schools. Freedom of religion is the silliest freedom ever imagined (it only really exists to regulate religious people who have a tendency to kill anyone who doesn't agree with them) and it certainly doesn't give someone the right to override the schools rules. Complaining that this student's freedom of speech was curtailed is similar to complaining that a student who has been placed on detention has had his freedom of movement curtailed or that a requirement to wear a school uniform curtails a student's freedom of expression. The principal had the duty to ensure that this student didn't bore the pants off everyone else with his mumbo-jumbo and I think he made the right decision. Of course this is for the good of the school. The school doesn't look particular good if it's graduating students are incapable of distinguishing between reality and fantasy ;) There you go again with the backhand insults. Why do you bother if you have so little interest in it? You know what I do with things I don't like? Stay away from them. And then you say that he made this decision based solely on it's entertainment factor? Right. Going by that logic talking about things you deem imaginary should be more interesting than listening to him talk about school work. People shouldn't mix religious insanities with education :crazy: I wonder what you religious nutcase among us here would have said if he was to say "Jesus and religion stood in my way but I overcame it and succeeded nonetheless." You'd have called him "intolerant", "saying it for the sake of provocation" and so on. The hypocrisy goes both ways. :rolleyes: And you speak about freedom of speech, in America? :laugh: :rolleyes: All these posts just prove my point. You mean the sentence where the student said that he was prevented from talking about "how He can help you"? That's preaching and I'm not sure how much more evidence you need. Anyone talking at length about their religion is generally preachy and that has no place in a public school. Religion is anti-educational and doesn't belong in schools, it belongs in churches and the like so keep it there. Just as rational people don't belong in churches, religious people don't belong in schools. What is it about religious people that makes them think that it's alright to force their nonsense down everyone else's throats? If you want to believe in fantasies then good for you but keep it to yourselves. Oh, and stop complaining about how insulted you are when someone dismisses your evidence-lacking myths for what they are - fantasies. You're not special, you're not the chosen ones, you don't have any rights that surpass anyone else's rights and you certainly don't deserve any respect for believing what you claim to believe. Just like your long winded posts about something you apparently dislike. Are you a masochist? Spending so much time dwelling on something you don't like? It's funny you talk about how you don't like religious people forcing their "mumbo jumbo" down your throat, and yet you're going to do the exact same thing. We call that hypocrisy where I'm from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrunkenBeard Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 so the non-religion is the new religion. Well atheism is not equivalent to non-religion, as such atheism and religion are not actually opposed. There are religious atheists, the same way there are irreligious theists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakem1 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 There you go again with the backhand insults. Why do you bother if you have so little interest in it? I haven't said anything insulting and I'm not sure why you'd say that I'm not interested in this discussion. You know what I do with things I don't like? Stay away from them. And that (in a nutshell) is the whole point of this story. Anybody who doesn't want to hear this guy prattle on about his god doesn't have the option to "stay away" so it was up to the principal to ensure that his graduation speech was appropriate. If the religious student didn't like the secular nature of the ceremony or the school then perhaps he should have stayed away. Just like your long winded posts about something you apparently dislike. Are you a masochist? Spending so much time dwelling on something you don't like? :blink: It's funny you talk about how you don't like religious people forcing their "mumbo jumbo" down your throat, and yet you're going to do the exact same thing. We call that hypocrisy where I'm from. First of all, my points aren't mumbo-jumbo because I can back up what I'm saying. Second, participating in a discussion about the appropriateness of religious preaching in a public school doesn't count as forcing opinions down someone's throat. It's all about learning when it is or isn't appropriate to say something - that's called common sense where I come from ;) In a way I feel sorry for you. You can't really defend your "beliefs" from any critical analysis so the only response left to you is to get angry and bang on about how your rights are being trampled on. It must be difficult for you. Of course, if this student had just kept his religion to himself then you wouldn't end up in this situation. I'm sure you'd prefer a return to the good old days where people didn't question religion and those that did were simply eliminated but unfortunately times have changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seizure1990 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 I haven't said anything insulting Are you playing stupid, or are you so blinded by your dislike for something that doesn't affect you that you don't even see what you are saying? All of your posts concerning religion are peppered with condescending and demeaning remarks, and other biased statements that aren't actual reasoning. Just your ignorant opinions. PS: I like how you come back to the "you can't prove your religion is right" BS at the very end of your last post. Were we even arguing about that? LOL no! We were arguing about a student's right to talk about what he wishes, regardless of whether you beleive in it or not. But leave it to you and the others like you to drone on and on about nothing because you can't justify your intolerance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richteralan Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 I love the way that current education educates people to give up their freedom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@Leo Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakem1 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Are you playing stupid, or are you so blinded by your dislike for something that doesn't affect you that you don't even see what you are saying? All of your posts concerning religion are peppered with condescending and demeaning remarks, and other biased statements that aren't actual reasoning. Just your ignorant opinions. PS: I like how you come back to the "you can't prove your religion is right" BS at the very end of your last post. Were we even arguing about that? LOL no! We were arguing about a student's right to talk about what he wishes, regardless of whether you beleive in it or not. But leave it to you and the others like you to drone on and on about nothing because you can't justify your intolerance. Of course religion affects me. Just because I don't practice it doesn't mean that I'm immune to it's influence. Politicians make decisions based on their religious views or they pander to the views of their religious constituents. In this country bishops have guaranteed seats in Parliament guaranteeing them a direct say in the laws of the land. Religious schools receive funding from the government to help them brainwash young children. And this is the case around the world. Women in Ireland can't have abortions because of the church. Homosexuality is outlawed in Uganda and gay couples are murdered because of religion. Criminals have their hands chopped off in Saudi Arabia because of religion. The Palestinians have been dispossessed because of religion. Children around the world have their genitals mutilated because of religion. Millions of people around the world are exposed to AIDS and other STDs because religion tells them not to use contraceptives. The list goes on and on and on so why on earth would you claim that it doesn't affect me? You claim that it's BS to say that religious beliefs can't be proven but the simple fact is that they can't. They defy reason and evidence and proof and science and common sense and everything that modern civilisation has been built on since the Enlightenment. Whether you like it or not that lack of evidence and reason lies at the very heart of this argument and is precisely why people object to having to live lives that are governed by the dictates of organised religion. You can't escape it and it's precisely why the principal was right to edit the students speech. You want to believe in a god that is offended by the top of your head and the foreskin on the end of your penis. That's fine and nobody is saying that you can't believe in it. All we ask is that you don't try and force those beliefs on us. By the way, if you'd followed the thread you would have seen that I've discussed the issue of the speech in almost every comment I've posted. I've clearly said that I think the issue relates to the appropriateness of the subject in relation to the audience and I've also dealt with the fact that free speech arguments don't apply in the context of a school. Nobody has argued with those points or asked me to clarify them further. However, as usual here, a number of religious members have trotted out the same tired complaints about how hard done by they are. My response to that is simply put up or shut up. As I've said before, your "beliefs" don't give you an automatic right to be heard and don't earn you any respect. Don't inflict them on others unless asked to and don't expect anyone to take them seriously when they don't stand up to the slightest questioning. It's not my fault if they're so easily ridiculed and you can hardly expect me to treat them with respect when they so clearly don't deserve any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green_Eye Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 I think a big injustice was done to this boy, restricting his speech in such a way seems extremely stupid. So what if he was preaching? Are people in that school so absent minded and gullible that one speech is going to in some way force them to become more religous? It makes no sense, at best people will think "good for him" and move on with their lives. Some may be annoyed because they don't believe in God but is that really grounds in which to retrict someones freedom of speech? Finally some may find the same inspiration that the lad found and will maybe seek God themselves, again that's their business, Also this question may be a bit cliche but what if someone had suffered the same scrutiny for speaking out against God? What would the reaction be there? It has been mentioned here already that the intolerance of religion is on the path to becoming just as bad if not worse than the intolerance of atheism. What personally really grinds my gears is the general impression of atheists(especially on this forum) thinking that just because they don't believe in "imaginary friends" that they somehow are ten times better and wiser then their religous counterparts where in reality nobody on earth has a funkin clue about anything. I just don't understand that level of arrogance, religion or no religion we still have no idea how things work on this tiny speck of dust we call home... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsam Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Its funny how some people here will argue all day long for gay rights and how gays should be able to express themselves and ridicule others saying "Are you afraid of catching the gay?" But then when it comes to religion and God woooooo you can't talk about that in public.... I guess they are "scared of Catching the God" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nub Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Selective free speech is not free speech.. :pinch: Religious freedom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seizure1990 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Of course religion affects me. Just because I don't practice it doesn't mean that I'm immune to it's influence. Politicians make decisions based on their religious views or they pander to the views of their religious constituents. In this country bishops have guaranteed seats in Parliament guaranteeing them a direct say in the laws of the land. Religious schools receive funding from the government to help them brainwash young children. And this is the case around the world. Women in Ireland can't have abortions because of the church. Homosexuality is outlawed in Uganda and gay couples are murdered because of religion. Criminals have their hands chopped off in Saudi Arabia because of religion. The Palestinians have been dispossessed because of religion. Children around the world have their genitals mutilated because of religion. Millions of people around the world are exposed to AIDS and other STDs because religion tells them not to use contraceptives. The list goes on and on and on so why on earth would you claim that it doesn't affect me? You claim that it's BS to say that religious beliefs can't be proven but the simple fact is that they can't. They defy reason and evidence and proof and science and common sense and everything that modern civilisation has been built on since the Enlightenment. Whether you like it or not that lack of evidence and reason lies at the very heart of this argument and is precisely why people object to having to live lives that are governed by the dictates of organised religion. You can't escape it and it's precisely why the principal was right to edit the students speech. You want to believe in a god that is offended by the top of your head and the foreskin on the end of your penis. That's fine and nobody is saying that you can't believe in it. All we ask is that you don't try and force those beliefs on us. By the way, if you'd followed the thread you would have seen that I've discussed the issue of the speech in almost every comment I've posted. I've clearly said that I think the issue relates to the appropriateness of the subject in relation to the audience and I've also dealt with the fact that free speech arguments don't apply in the context of a school. Nobody has argued with those points or asked me to clarify them further. However, as usual here, a number of religious members have trotted out the same tired complaints about how hard done by they are. My response to that is simply put up or shut up. As I've said before, your "beliefs" don't give you an automatic right to be heard and don't earn you any respect. Don't inflict them on others unless asked to and don't expect anyone to take them seriously when they don't stand up to the slightest questioning. It's not my fault if they're so easily ridiculed and you can hardly expect me to treat them with respect when they so clearly don't deserve any. what does all that have to do with a boy wanting to talk about something close to him at an event meant to celebrate his success? The answer is nothing. All we ask is that you don't try and force those beliefs on us. Funny comment to make... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DukeEsquire Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 I bet they'd have no problem letting him talk about how "Harry Potter" changed his life. I love how much "Atheist" do not believe in freedom of speech. Then again, don't worry what you think is what it is and nobody else's opinion matters. :rolleyes: Why would an atheist need to believe in freedom of speech? There is no connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Udedenkz Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 It is the law guys. Any good government should NOT be in any way promoting religion in its facilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagosilva29 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seizure1990 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 It is the law guys. Any good government should NOT be in any way promoting religion in its facilities. They aren't. An individual is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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