Miami police shoot, kill man carrying a toy gun

[Solid Knight]

The orange tip rule varies by state. Also, you can buy these things over the internet from overseas manufacturers easily.

[Wolfbane]

"They murdered him in cold blood for a toy gun!" the victim's sister, Claire Harding, told WFOR. "That?s no reason for you to kill somebody!"

So shooting someone who is carrying what appears to be real gun = murdering them in cold blood?

Sounds like mental disability runs in the family.

[Southern Patriot]

The orange tip rule varies by state. Also, you can buy these things over the internet from overseas manufacturers easily.

Yeah, very true. Hell, the original Megatron toy (or one of the more recent Japanese reproductions) is highly prized partly because it was produced before toy guns required the orange tip. The problem comes when people try to import them into the US. They are quite often seized by Customs.

So shooting someone who is carrying what appears to be real gun = murdering them in cold blood?

Sounds like mental disability runs in the family.

Not just carrying it, but actually refusing to drop it when ordered to by the police, and then actually pointing it at the police.

[tiagosilva29]

here are 2 guns, which is fake, which is real

The first one is real.

[Hardcore Til I Die]

So shooting someone who is carrying what appears to be real gun = murdering them in cold blood?

Sounds like mental disability runs in the family.

Yeah I'm sure the woman is thinking straight when she's just lost her brother.. :rolleyes:

[+LogicalApex MVC]

Ya, thanks for telling me this, we have criminals here that make yours look like a kindergarten dust up! I am still pretty sure that they (The Police) would act differently, but then again I don't live in the States so I am not as au fait as you are!

This is not unique to Philadelphia or the United States. Crimminal orginzations always attept to use those that the police will scrutinize less (after all their goal is not to get caught in the first place). Children are a very common choice as many people assume children are always innocent.

[Hum]

Maybe we should stop making toy guns.

I don't see how they benefit children.

[Wolfbane]

Yeah I'm sure the woman is thinking straight when she's just lost her brother.. :rolleyes:

Why is it that the first thing the woman did was go on the news and lie about what happened?

Sounds like she's preparing to sue the police rather than grieving for her brother.

[+Warwagon MVC]

But doesn't the orange tip make the real looking gun look *****.

[DrunkenBeard]

So the police shoots an innocent old man and people defend the police ? If this had happened over here there would have been an uproar. They couldn't have shot him in the legs ? Your police can't stun people ? I mean ... they can't control an old man with a fake gun without killing him ? That's what you call Police ?

[Wolfbane]

So the police shoots an innocent old man and people defend the police ? If this had happened over here there would have been an uproar. They couldn't have shot him in the legs ? Your police can't stun people ? I mean ... they can't control an old man with a fake gun without killing him ? That's what you call Police ?

They didn't know it was fake, so your entire argument is flawed.

Shooting in the legs or tasering someone with (as far as the police knew) a real gun is just asking for someone who is actually innocent to get shot.

[Bryan R.]

So the police shoots an innocent old man and people defend the police ? If this had happened over here there would have been an uproar. They couldn't have shot him in the legs ? Your police can't stun people ? I mean ... they can't control an old man with a fake gun without killing him ? That's what you call Police ?

Six words in and you're wrong.

[Southern Patriot]

So the police shoots an innocent old man and people defend the police ? If this had happened over here there would have been an uproar. They couldn't have shot him in the legs ? Your police can't stun people ? I mean ... they can't control an old man with a fake gun without killing him ? That's what you call Police ?

I'm guessing that English isn't your native language, so I'll forgive you not actually reading what happened. Hopefully you can understand this synopsis of what happened:

Man had a realistic looking fake gun in the street.

Police were called (not knowing if the gun was real or fake).

Man was told by the police to drop the gun.

He refused and then aimed the gun at the officers.

The officers did what they were trained to do, which is to shoot someone who takes aim at them.

Oh, and he was 57. While that is a good bit older than most people here, I wouldn't exactly call him "an old man".

[mokthraka]

The one stamped Hasbro :laugh:

The lower one looks fake, plastic.

The lower one is indeed fake. But you are only saying that because it looks "plastic" I believe the stock is. But it is on an actual MP5.

[DocM]

Yup - and some toy guns have nicer looking plastic than many real guns :p.

[DrunkenBeard]

The officers did what they were trained to do, which is to shoot someone who takes aim at them.

Why did they have to kill him ? I mean I don't expect police officers to be experts in terminal ballistics but they should (well I hope so at least) be trained to shoot without causing death when in doubt. I understand that the situation was difficult but taking a civilian's life should always be the last resort when everything else has failed, not a standard solution for every situation that doesn't go ideally.

[mokthraka]

Why did they have to kill him ? I mean I don't expect police officers to be experts in terminal ballistics but they should (well I hope so at least) be trained to shoot without causing death when in doubt. I understand that the situation was difficult but taking a civilian's life should always be the last resort when everything else has failed, not a standard solution for every situation that doesn't go ideally.

WHEN A GUN IS RAISED AT YOU. YOU SHOOT TO KILL. YOU NEVER FIRE UNLESS YOUR INTENT IS TO KILL

[DocM]

^^_____ Why in Hell is it so hard for some people to get this through their skulls? Survival 101 - only not understood by those who have lost the common sense God gave a gopher.

[Miuku.]

shoot me in the leg. I can still shoot you in the head.

Likelyhood of you still being able to do anything after I've shot you in the leg is relatively low - this isn't the movies where someone will take 5 bullets to the leg and still swim the Atlantic ocean. Most people who are wounded by a gunshot will panic, stumble or even in some cases pass out from the shock.

It's pretty clear none of you have ever shot anyone, been shot or even tended to a wound resulting from one - you're just talking out of your ass with the typical "I'm on the internet, I'm a tough guy" mentality.

Grow up.

[mokthraka]

Likelyhood of you still being able to do anything after I've shot you in the leg is relatively low - this isn't the movies where someone will take 5 bullets to the leg and still swim the Atlantic ocean. Most people who are wounded by a gunshot will panic, stumble or even in some cases pass out from the shock.

It's pretty clear none of you have ever shot anyone, been shot or even tended to a wound resulting from one - you're just talking out of your ass with the typical "I'm on the internet, I'm a tough guy" mentality.

Grow up.

actually DocM has shot someone IIRC. He has drawn 3 times.

You can defiantly take a shot to the leg and shoot back. Especially if your on something such as Meth or PCP.

You shoot to kill. Otherwise don't shoot.

[Stetson]

Claiming that the police shouldn't have taken such action because it was a toy gun (when there was no quick and sure way to tell that it was) is like saying that they shouldn't take such action against someone who pointed a real gun at them because later it was found out that the gun was unloaded.

[I am Reid]

Here's a story some of you might need to read that happened near my home. They police had a guy cornered and tried to taze him, but it didnt work.

http://www2.nbc4i.com/news/2011/jul/22/9/law-enforcement-shoots-man-grove-city-ar-630346/

You do realize that once you shoot someone and it doesnt kill them its just going to **** them off even more. If they are still able to shoot their gun they are for sure going to try to do it now, thats why if you are going to shoot someone you better make sure they cant shoot back. Its not like in the movies, you can just shoot the gun out of someones hand, although it this case it seems they did shoot his thumb off which i guess is the same thing.

[DocM]

actually DocM has shot someone IIRC. He has drawn 3 times.

Correct, and while doing ER rotations I've seen people walk in with several 9mm, .38 etc. bullets in them. I've also have been to police funerals where the officer was shot by an already wounded perp. Some of these were relatives, so my feelings on this are rather firm.

That's why I carry a large caliber pistol with HST/Hydra-Shok ammo (extreme hollow point/high velocity) - you're far more likely to get a 1-shot drop. These rounds can induce brain damage from a torso wound due to a powerful short-impulse shockwave of almost 1,800 PSI.

No hesitation, no quarter. Period.

[jwjw1]

So the police shoots an innocent old man and people defend the police ? If this had happened over here there would have been an uproar. They couldn't have shot him in the legs ? Your police can't stun people ? I mean ... they can't control an old man with a fake gun without killing him ? That's what you call Police ?

Real or Fake?...but go ahead and shoot him in the leg while you're thinking and nevermind that if it is real...he's now ****ed off with two good hands :laugh:

[DocM]

Unlike on TV and in the movies people don't just drop when shot by most rounds, and can continue to fight quite effectively. Let me relate a real incident that illustrates how different real shootouts are.

In the late 80's in Miami the FBI closed in on two perps who were armed with rifles. The FBI agents were armed mostly with .38 revolvers like you see on 50's and 60's TV cop shows.

By the time the dust settled it had taken 6 direct hits to drop one of the perps and 12 direct hits to drop the other. Before the final shots that dropped them they had taken out most of the agents present; 2 agents were dead and 5 were wounded. Most of these officers were hit after both perps had already been wounded.

The result of this was the FBI contracted out for weapons that would be more effective but could still be concealable and easy for smaller agents to manage. This resulted in the .40 S&W round used by most cops today. Some units even load it into MP5 submachine guns. This is also the round I usually carry.