Miami police shoot, kill man carrying a toy gun


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So why wasn't the sister (or other family member) taking care of this mentally disabled man instead of letting him wander the streets?

if you had a disabled brother would you wanna keep him inside at all times and never let him outside ever again?

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Edit: Removed the quote as it wasn't really relevant. This is really just directed at the fact that people seem to think it makes a difference if someone is mentally disabled, that for some reason people should have to make an allowance for them.

Why the hell should anyone have to make allowances for people with mental disabilities?

The experiences I've had with disabled people are as follows:

- An autistic guy who liked cars so the whole school I was in had to spend several thousand dollars to fence the whole place in so the guy wouldn't kill himself trying to look at the cars

- A guy who kicked the **** out of several people before he got suspended from school (he was let off the first few times because he was "mentally disabled")

- There are free "retard buses" run by the city to transport disabled kids whose parents can't be bothered supporting them.

Why the hell are we making allowances for these people?

If they're never going to advance past a mental age of something like 6, and if their family doesn't want to support them, why the hell don't we just stick them all in mental asylums where they can't do any harm?

Awhile ago there was something on the news about some parents with a mentally disabled child who didn't want free scanning for pregnant women to be introduced to check if the baby is going to have disabilities. Probably they thought something like: less retarded children = we have less of a voice = less free money from the Government.

Another thing on teh news in NZ was some looter (looting after Christchurch earthquakes) got caught looting, said his Asperger's syndrome made him break into a building (using tools to break in), and steal stuff, so he gets away with it, and last I heard of it he was thinking about suing the police for arresting him.

Society has gone from rejecting defects to the opposite end of the spectrum: People are paid to have a disability, and having a disability is an excuse for committing any crime.

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if you had a disabled brother would you wanna keep him inside at all times and never let him outside ever again?

If you had a disabled brother who is obviously incapable of taking care of himself, would you let him outside without being present and watching over him?

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If you had a disabled brother who is obviously incapable of taking care of himself, would you let him outside without being present and watching over him?

at would depend on the individual, each person is different.

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Society has gone from rejecting defects to the opposite end of the spectrum: People are paid to have a disability, and having a disability is an excuse for committing any crime.

Um, who here is saying the guy had an "excuse"?

I, for one, am trying to say that this guy's behavior was almost painfully predictable, and that we need wider availability of mental health services and interventions so that the cops aren't left with having to shoot people. I'm not trying to "excuse" him in the least.

He left the police with no choice BUT to shoot him, and what few details we have suggest (to me, anyway) that he knew damn well what he was doing. The victim's "disability" is only tangentially involved. People behave the way this guy did because of depression, and despair, and desperation, and that can happen to anybody; his autism was just a risk factor for the depression that ultimately led him to this confrontation.

If anything, I'm ****ed, and not at the cops--they were left with no choice. I'm ****ed at the victim's family, because I'm pretty certain that after 56 years they must have known he was prone to depression and acting out, and they should have had a plan in place. And I'm ****ed at the victim for essentially daring the authorities to shoot him. The consequences of that are expensive: the police involved will likely be out on mandatory leave, there will be a Critical Incident investigation, and most probably some very expensive therapy for PTSD.

(PS, the family reaction suggests a potential wrongful death suit, too, which will be expensive even if it doesn't go anywhere)

If you had a disabled brother who is obviously incapable of taking care of himself, would you let him outside without being present and watching over him?

We don't know the extent of his disability, and there's an excellent chance he functioned well enough to get through. I have a close relative with Aspergers who lives on his own, holds down a job, drives a car, etc.

I've said elsewhere that I doubt his disability had much to do with the shooting, aside from possibly contributing to the depression that led him to seek it.

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<snip>

My post was only really 1/2 relevant to this thread, I just get ****ed off when I see a news article that mentions someone committing a crime was mentally disabled. As if it matters. The police couldn't have known the criminal was disabled, and if someone is so severely disabled that it needs to be mentioned when they commit a crime, they shouldn't be allowed outside without supervision in the first place.
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We don't know the extent of his disability, and there's an excellent chance he functioned well enough to get through. I have a close relative with Aspergers who lives on his own, holds down a job, drives a car, etc.

I've said elsewhere that I doubt his disability had much to do with the shooting, aside from possibly contributing to the depression that led him to seek it.

The article never mentioned anything about depression. I'm also offended at the notion that there is a correlation between being depressed, and going postal.

Second, it said he had autism, not asperger's. Autism, if they mean the actual condition of autism, and not just as a general term for the autism scale, is quite a bit more severe then asperger's.

Maybe he really was a "high-functioning autistic" (asperger's), and something entirely aside made him go nuts, I really don't know. But it certainly isn't the police's fault, and I'd be very suspicious of the people who are his caretakers.

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The article never mentioned anything about depression. I'm also offended at the notion that there is a correlation between being depressed, and going postal.

Second, it said he had autism, not asperger's. Autism, if they mean the actual condition of autism, and not just as a general term for the autism scale, is quite a bit more severe then asperger's.

Maybe he really was a "high-functioning autistic" (asperger's), and something entirely aside made him go nuts, I really don't know. But it certainly isn't the police's fault, and I'd be very suspicious of the people who are his caretakers.

Why does the notion of a correlation between depression and "going postal" offend you? There's a very strong link, and it's easy to see. The whole "going postal" thing has a strong element of self-destructiveness to it (hint: an awful lot of such situations end in the death of the perpetrator, either because he took his own life or because he confronted the police in such a way that they had no choice). Most such incidents have precipitating events, such as being fired or the breakup of a marriage which are very strong depressive triggers though since we don't know what was going on with the victim that day I guess we'll never know in this particular case. Regardless, I see "depression" written all over it. I can tell you, it makes a great deal more sense to me than the notion of an individual just suddenly going over the edge for no apparent reason. As I've mentioned in an earlier post, autism is a strong risk factor for depression.

Happy people don't go out of their way to provoke police officers. And one might argue that maybe he was angry, or upset, but I'm going to say that one doesn't seek this kind of confrontation unless one is feeling at least a little self-destructive.

Autism is, as you've correctly identified, a scale (and Asperger's is on it, toward the low end). I'm going to make an assumption here, but I think it's reasonable: first, most autistic adults actually DO achieve some level of function. The fact that this guy wasn't in an institution suggests he probably had done just that. So, yes, I THINK he was fairly high-functioning.

And I think these are very important questions, because if nothing else I think we need to do a MUCH better job of identifying depression in the people around us, and identifying the resources to treat it rather than let it come to this.

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Why does the notion of a correlation between depression and "going postal" offend you? There's a very strong link, and it's easy to see. The whole "going postal" thing has a strong element of self-destructiveness to it (hint: an awful lot of such situations end in the death of the perpetrator, either because he took his own life or because he confronted the police in such a way that they had no choice). Most such incidents have precipitating events, such as being fired or the breakup of a marriage which are very strong depressive triggers though since we don't know what was going on with the victim that day I guess we'll never know in this particular case. Regardless, I see "depression" written all over it. I can tell you, it makes a great deal more sense to me than the notion of an individual just suddenly going over the edge for no apparent reason. As I've mentioned in an earlier post, autism is a strong risk factor for depression.

Happy people don't go out of their way to provoke police officers. And one might argue that maybe he was angry, or upset, but I'm going to say that one doesn't seek this kind of confrontation unless one is feeling at least a little self-destructive.

That's a whole lot of rationalization and "logical reasoning", but I'd like some data or professional sources to back that up please.

I, and many people I know, have problems with depression. The only person I know among these people who's gotten into any serious sort of trouble was also addicted to ecstasy and probably some other drugs. Get my drift? Depression = destruction is nonsense. There are almost always outside factors. That's how I see it, and if you want to impress otherwise on me, I want to see some concrete evidence.

Autism is, as you've correctly identified, a scale (and Asperger's is on it, toward the low end). I'm going to make an assumption here, but I think it's reasonable: first, most autistic adults actually DO achieve some level of function. The fact that this guy wasn't in an institution suggests he probably had done just that. So, yes, I THINK he was fairly high-functioning.

And I think these are very important questions, because if nothing else I think we need to do a MUCH better job of identifying depression in the people around us, and identifying the resources to treat it rather than let it come to this.

There are many autistic adults who are unable to function regularly. That's a terrible assumption to make. If he was outside, it's likely he was able, but I'm just saying you should be careful in what you assume.

Depression is a terrible thing. We should be doing everything we can to help people with depression. But again , being depressed doesn't mean you are going to attempt suicide, and it doesn't mean you are going to go on a rampage. Being unhappy, and having a strong-rooted desire to (self-)destruct are two entirely different things.

The article also never said he was depressed. More assumptions.

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That's a whole lot of rationalization and "logical reasoning", but I'd like some data or professional sources to back that up please.

I'll be the first to grant that my opinion is informed by a wealth of observation and life experience. Part of the problem here is that we AREN'T doing enough research on this.

I, and many people I know, have problems with depression. The only person I know among these people who's gotten into any serious sort of trouble was also addicted to ecstasy and probably some other drugs. Get my drift? Depression = destruction is nonsense. There are almost always outside factors. That's how I see it, and if you want to impress otherwise on me, I want to see some concrete evidence.

You're getting it backwards. I'm not trying to claim that all depressed people are self-destructive. I AM claiming, though, that all self-destructive people are depressed. I've got an open mind. Suggest some alternatives, I'd be genuinely interested in discussing them.

There are many autistic adults who are unable to function regularly. That's a terrible assumption to make. If he was outside, it's likely he was able, but I'm just saying you should be careful in what you assume.

And I admitted in my post that I was making an assumption. I kind of had to, because the news item focuses on the fact that the victim was armed with a toy, and not the more potentially relevant facts such as his level of function, or what might have triggered his behavior.

Depression is a terrible thing. We should be doing everything we can to help people with depression. But again , being depressed doesn't mean you are going to attempt suicide, and it doesn't mean you are going to go on a rampage. Being unhappy, and having a strong-rooted desire to (self-)destruct are two entirely different things.

I haven't said anywhere that all depression sufferers were at risk to go out and provoke the police into shooting them. Given the prevalence of depression in the western world, we'd be losing a significant chunk of our population.

There is a serious misunderstanding of just what clinical depression really is. Depression isn't just "the blues" or a bad mood, it is a neurochemical imbalance that actually affects the sufferer's grip on reality in extreme cases. Even in milder forms it affects motivation, cognition, and social skills. Because most people view it as a simple bad mood, there is a general lack of sympathy. The general attitude many of the uninformed seem to hold runs along the "get over it" theme.

The article also never said he was depressed. More assumptions.

He didn't just happen to carry a toy gun out of the house and go for a stroll. He left his home with a replica gun, harassed neighbors with it, and confronted police when they arrived on the scene. And sure, there are multiple ways to characterize what happened here. Maybe the replica gun was a kind of a totem to him, something he liked to carry around like a kid carries a security blanket, and maybe he wasn't harassing neighbors but complaining about... I don't know, construction traffic or whatever... and maybe he wasn't confronting the officers but trying to show his realistic, replica gun to them out of his excitement. Is that the explanation that makes sense to you?

No, the item didn't say he was depressed. I've seen few articles outside of reports of actual, documented suicides that discuss depression at all, which is a problem in itself. We really need to start bringing mental health "out of the closet" and discuss its implications. Depression is an element in a great deal of criminal activity, especially ugly stuff like domestic abuse. Maybe if we find a way to start intervening (particularly in potential crisis situations), we can save a lot of other potential costs.

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As sad as it is this person did the worst thing you can do when confronted by a Police officer, he pointed a gun at them and they responded the way they were trained to respond.

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I know very well what clinical depression is, thanks.

At any rate, I see the misunderstanding. You're saying destructive individuals have depression, not necessarily vica versa.

Nonetheless, I think their are a host of reasons other then depression that cause this sort of behavior. For example, anger management issues, and depression, are two separate issues, and one does not need the other. I will agree, however, that depression can certainly cause predispositions to inappropriate behavior, but I feel like you are making it out to be "the leading cause" or something.

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IMO, a lot of this behavior (see the Carson City IHOP shooting this week, as well) has a strong self-destructive element to it. In some cases I think the individual is consciously suicidal, in other cases just wants to go out "in a blaze of glory", causing as much destruction as possible along the way, but doesn't expect to survive the encounter nonetheless.

Just as an aside, those shootings in Norway several weeks ago are particularly worrisome to me because that's a rare one where that self-destructive element seems to be absent; that seems to have been committed by a murderous psycho with a religio/cultural agenda. A terrorist, in other words.

Aside from that, though, yes, I generally see these incidents where an individual seeks to confront police as inherently self-destructive. And I see depression as the root of self-destructive behavior. Am I oversimplifying? Or missing something?

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Just as an aside, those shootings in Norway several weeks ago are particularly worrisome to me because that's a rare one where that self-destructive element seems to be absent; that seems to have been committed by a murderous psycho with a religio/cultural agenda. A terrorist, in other words.

That wasn't the only incident of such an attack by a long shot. We've had our instances of this in the US too. I'm sure agenda killings have been going on for a while now.

Aside from that, though, yes, I generally see these incidents where an individual seeks to confront police as inherently self-destructive. And I see depression as the root of self-destructive behavior. Am I oversimplifying? Or missing something?

I think you are over simplifying. I think the relationship between psychosis, depression, and violence has a lot more going on then "if you are depressed, you are liable to go on a killing spree".

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I think you are over simplifying. I think the relationship between psychosis, depression, and violence has a lot more going on then "if you are depressed, you are liable to go on a killing spree".

Again, I've never tried to claim that. Not all depressed people are self-destructive, few of those are suicidal, and very VERY few of those are suicidal and confrontational enough to engage in this kind of confrontation. I'm also not convince that all such behavior is psychotic, either.

I AM saying that many cases such as this one look like they may possibly be motivated by "suicide by cop", and that if the public in general were more educated in mental health issues (NOT mental disability issues--related but not closely), there's a chance we might be able to intervene. To EVERYONE's benefit.

I'm not trying to claim that "Depressed"=="likely to go on a rampage", but "likely to go on a rampage" is, in most cases, depressed.

Why would that be a problem? If anything, it makes intervention easier if we start from that point of view.

Edited by Thunderbuck
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So why wasn't the sister (or other family member) taking care of this mentally disabled man instead of letting him wander the streets?

You can't sue the city when you take care of the problem! You can only sue them when they murder him because he was pointing a fake gun at police in a threatening manner.

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