migo Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 You're right, it doesn't make any sense, but an OS that has been abandoned also makes no sense. Why the hell make something that's essentially an N900 redux without the keyboard when the N9 is out and clearly a lot better and more viable? If you're going to make something like that, it would be listed as MeeGo 1.2 Harmattan instead of Internet Tablet OS 2008 (this is 2011, and it'll be 2012 before it's released if it's real), and would have 854x480 resolution for better compatibility with the N9 and the same 16:9 aspect ratio as other Symbian devices running Qt. It makes more sense that this is a Windows Phone device given how similar the specs are to the Windows Phone requirements, and that the OS and platform mentions are in error - perhaps due to not having entries for Windows Phone and therefore the person setting it up just selected the next best thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rajputwarrior Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Because as I said at the start: Doesn't seem like a premium phone more like a low-end Smart Phone. I'm more interested in seeing what their top of the line phones will be like. This is a discussion forum where people post what they think. That is what we do here.. i agree with that. the specs seem "meh" at best... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
migo Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 I'd rather internals stay more consistent and we see the premium phones emerging based on stuff like awesome screens and cameras, or hell, that things go back to the days of dumbphones when people reviewed them based on tonal balance, speech clarity and reception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George P Global Moderator Posted October 22, 2011 Author Global Moderator Share Posted October 22, 2011 Nokia will have solid cameras, that's a given imo. Higher screen res should come with a update next year though, probably 6-8 months from now I bet. We'll probably see more storage as the first thing. Right now only one phone sells with 32GB out of the box, and it's the toshiba-fujitsu. I expect Nokia to have some 32GB options though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkMan Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Questionable? It has lower specs than other phones. There's no question about it. And if Windows Phone 7 doesn't need faster specs that's nice for Windows Phone 7 but 3rd party apps can certainly make use of it. It only has a 5 Mega Pixel Camera, Single Core CPU, Low resolution 3.7" Screen and 720p video recording while other phones are 8 Mega Pixel Camera, Dual Core, Higher resolution at 3.5" or bigger 4.1-4.5" and do 1080p video recording. Even the batteries on the other phones are larger but Nokia has been able to do well with what it has .. I guess. 5 Hour talk time on 3G vs 8 Hours on the iPhone? - I'd say this phone is a low end smart phone not a high end model by any stretch. 5mpx camera - Considering nokias history, that camera probably takes better pictures than any 8+ mpxhone camera out there. A phone due to sensor size, optics, lens size and physics can only really take advantage of around 4 anyway. So high mpx sensor can due to physics, or rather WILL, cause lower quality and more noise. Single core CPU - Irrelevant, been over this already, but it's already been shown that WP7 with a slower single core CPU than this outperforms android with dual core, both in OS and in apps. This ones faster than the old ones. Low res scren - It's not really a low res screen. Yes the iPhone and certain android phones are higher, but why. It's still higher than high dpi screens where before the iPhone did the retina screen. It'sstill a high di screen just not as high as retina or the highest 4+ inch android screens. 720p video - I would rather have quality smooth low compression 720p than the usual over compressed 1080 videos that are so over compressed 480p would give better details not to mention movements in the pictures. Batteries - yes as you pointed out, irrelevant since Nokia, especially with WP is able to give you far more per mah than other phones, and this is a smaller form factor phone, for people where a smaller thinner phone is more important than using a phone for rowing 24/7.then again, my HTC with ****ty battery and WP7 is the only phone I've been able to use for 2+ days without charging and actually using it heavily for those two days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vice Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 5mpx camera - Considering nokias history, that camera probably takes better pictures than any 8+ mpxhone camera out there. A phone due to sensor size, optics, lens size and physics can only really take advantage of around 4 anyway. So high mpx sensor can due to physics, or rather WILL, cause lower quality and more noise. Single core CPU - Irrelevant, been over this already, but it's already been shown that WP7 with a slower single core CPU than this outperforms android with dual core, both in OS and in apps. This ones faster than the old ones. Low res scren - It's not really a low res screen. Yes the iPhone and certain android phones are higher, but why. It's still higher than high dpi screens where before the iPhone did the retina screen. It'sstill a high di screen just not as high as retina or the highest 4+ inch android screens. 720p video - I would rather have quality smooth low compression 720p than the usual over compressed 1080 videos that are so over compressed 480p would give better details not to mention movements in the pictures. Batteries - yes as you pointed out, irrelevant since Nokia, especially with WP is able to give you far more per mah than other phones, and this is a smaller form factor phone, for people where a smaller thinner phone is more important than using a phone for rowing 24/7.then again, my HTC with ****ty battery and WP7 is the only phone I've been able to use for 2+ days without charging and actually using it heavily for those two days. You are really fighting to do some explaining. Without seeing pictures of that camera you can't say it will be better than other phones on the market. About the CPU, you are saying it doesn't matter because Windows Phone 7 does better than Android when it comes to CPU performance. Yet you fail to mention the iPhone which is Windows Phones other competition. iPhone has Dual Cores and can use them, apps are already coming out right now that require the Dual Core CPU of the iPhone and iPad 2 such as GTA III by Rockstar. The screen is low res, they could have put a higher one in but then it wouldn't be a low-end phone which is what it is. Your 1080p comment is ridiculous. Just look at this video to see what is possible on the iPhone 4S's 1080p camera: http://bit.ly/oTg3sh This is a standard feature on high end phones now. Just another indicator this isn't a high end phone. Battery Life, again only 5 hours on 3G Talk Time vs 8 with the iPhone 4S which is a high end smart phone. This is low end when you look at every specification together. I don't see why you're arguing with me over it really this phone will not cost $299 on a 24 month contract it will probably be about $0 to $99 like other low end smart phones. rajputwarrior 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkMan Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 You are really fighting to do some explaining. Without seeing pictures of that camera you can't say it will be better than other phones on the market. About the CPU, you are saying it doesn't matter because Windows Phone 7 does better than Android when it comes to CPU performance. Yet you fail to mention the iPhone which is Windows Phones other competition. iPhone has Dual Cores and can use them, apps are already coming out right now that require the Dual Core CPU of the iPhone and iPad 2 such as GTA III by Rockstar. The screen is low res, they could have put a higher one in but then it wouldn't be a low-end phone which is what it is. Your 1080p comment is ridiculous. Just look at this video to see what is possible on the iPhone 4S's 1080p camera: http://bit.ly/oTg3sh This is a standard feature on high end phones now. Just another indicator this isn't a high end phone. Battery Life, again only 5 hours on 3G Talk Time vs 8 with the iPhone 4S which is a high end smart phone. This is low end when you look at every specification together. I don't see why you're arguing with me over it really this phone will not cost $299 on a 24 month contract it will probably be about $0 to $99 like other low end smart phones. I didn't say the camera was better, I said there was no reason to call it a worse camera because it had lower mpx and that Nokia had a history of quality cameras on their smart phones. As for gta I doubt it can't be done very good on the new WP phones And no, they couldn't put in a higher res screen, well yes they could since it's not a WP7 phone. But because WP actually has standards, they can't until chassi 3. It it's still not low res. it's still a high dpi screen, just as I said, not as high as retina. As for the video you're using iPhone 4s as the benchmark for ALL smart phones, despite it being twice the base price of other smartphones. And being he of the very few without over compressed terrible 1080, and I'd still like to see it in low light with a challenging shot environment in high speed. I.e. fast moving panning over grass or something. The there's also the space issue. People are cruelly more complaining that they can't reduce the res to 720 on the 4S. And again on the battery time ore comparing to a phone that's ridiculously more expensive. Not being as good specs as that one does ot make it a low end pone, it can still be a high end and definitely a mid end phone. Low end phone is something in the range of the many many Samsung Alexa phones hat sent names S or SII! Or the huashi and ZTE phones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vice Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Of course the iPhone 4S is more expensive it is a high end smart phone which this Nokia is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkMan Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Doesn't make it alow end as I said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vice Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Doesn't make it alow end as I said. No its single core CPU, mid-range camera, low resolution screen and low battery life make it a low end phone. The price will just confirm it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccuk Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 I didn't say the camera was better, I said there was no reason to call it a worse camera because it had lower mpx and that Nokia had a history of quality cameras on their smart phones. As for gta I doubt it can't be done very good on the new WP phones And no, they couldn't put in a higher res screen, well yes they could since it's not a WP7 phone. But because WP actually has standards, they can't until chassi 3. It it's still not low res. it's still a high dpi screen, just as I said, not as high as retina. As for the video you're using iPhone 4s as the benchmark for ALL smart phones, despite it being twice the base price of other smartphones. And being he of the very few without over compressed terrible 1080, and I'd still like to see it in low light with a challenging shot environment in high speed. I.e. fast moving panning over grass or something. The there's also the space issue. People are cruelly more complaining that they can't reduce the res to 720 on the 4S. And again on the battery time ore comparing to a phone that's ridiculously more expensive. Not being as good specs as that one does ot make it a low end pone, it can still be a high end and definitely a mid end phone. Low end phone is something in the range of the many many Samsung Alexa phones hat sent names S or SII! Or the huashi and ZTE phones. I think one will find that the higher MPx cams in these newer phones are an evolutionary design. They are for the better part beyond just a pixel bump, they offer better backlit sensors and a host of other noise reduction tech. The camera in this phone will, I am willing to bet, be a lower end cheaper offering. The iPhone 4S isn't twice the base price of other phones. The majority of high end smart phones are at comparable prices such as the SII and galaxy nexus etc... This would therefore dictate that this phone lies in the lower end of the smart phone market as none of its features scream premium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkMan Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Single core CPU can still make it a high end phone. It has no relevance without trying it. If it had been a WP7 phone I would have known the single core wouldn't make it low end. You don't know the camera is mid range, you only know the mpx of it. And fact is that with the size of a cell phone camera lens and sensor, anything above a 5mpx sensor is a waste of pixels. What makes it a good or bad camera is quality of the lense and type/quality of the sensor. Battery life is a worst mid range. What about HTC's 4g phone, it had a usable time of around 2-3 hours when you actually browsed, was hat a low end phne to? (not sure if it was the sensation or whatever of their silly names. But it was the one with the ugly bumpy back) So none of your arguments as it stands is giving any type of hint that it's a low end phone. There is one thing that clearly says it's going tobe a low end entry market smart phone though, which is something irrelevant to all our arguments and something you don't seem to have realized. It's a new Nokia smartphone. Not running WP7, but instead an OS they haven't used before generally used in emerging entry level markets. But the hardware specs as know today in no way indicate wether it's low, mid or hig end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vice Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 HawkMan we will just have to agree to disagree on this. This phone IS low end. Nothing you can say will change my mind on that. Other phones have better specs in every single feature this phone has. And now you are even saying it's for emerging markets. If that does not indicate it isn't high end I don't know what does. I think you are drinking the Windows Phone koolaid buddy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkMan Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 I think one will find that the higher MPx cams in these newer phones are an evolutionary design. They are for the better part beyond just a pixel bump, they offer better backlit sensors and a host of other noise reduction tech. The camera in this phone will, I am willing to bet, be a lower end cheaper offering. There is a problem with that argument. Physics disagrees. The sensors iPhones are so small the increasing pixel density WILL increase Ouse levels. The best camera you can get on a phone would bea 4-5 mega pixel high quality backlit sensor. Going higher than that induces more noise and lower quality pictures than that sensor would provide. There's also the glass aspect of course. Unfortunantely, average people, or rather the wast majority of people still eleven the more megapixels the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkMan Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 HawkMan we will just have to agree to disagree on this. This phone IS low end. Nothing you can say will change my mind on that. Other phones have better specs in every single feature this phone has. And now you are even saying it's for emerging markets. If that does not indicate it isn't high end I don't know what does.I think you are drinking the Windows Phone koolaid buddy. I already said it's a low end phone, I just used different arguments tha you and told you why your arguments don't work. I have used my windows phone, I have used high end android phones, my low end WP7 phone outperforms the android phones in EVERY aspect. The only phone that outperforms the WP7 phones today is the iPhone 4s, unfortunately it also runs iOS, which I have no interest in. It still bugs me how much apple uses their ecosystem to lure me into iPhone and macOS with my ipad2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccuk Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 There is a problem with that argument. Physics disagrees. The sensors iPhones are so small the increasing pixel density WILL increase Ouse levels. The best camera you can get on a phone would bea 4-5 mega pixel high quality backlit sensor. Going higher than that induces more noise and lower quality pictures than that sensor would provide. There's also the glass aspect of course. Unfortunantely, average people, or rather the wast majority of people still eleven the more megapixels the better. Hold your horses. Physics don't disagree at all. The iPhone 4S glass has changed, its a slightly enlarged aperture from what I gather too. There is also signal processing on the A5 chip that is cleaning the sensor image on the fly. All CMOS based cameras have noise and a host of other issues. But these newer breeds are different animal to those of 3-4 years ago. I think some people, such as yourself, are stuck in the megapixel argument. To an extent it's true, but these newer sensors aren't pushing the 14mpx envelope exactly are they. It's a clear focus on trying to make the iPhone / SII a viable replacement for a point and shoot camera, they both succeed. Hence they are a premium end phone. I will state right now that this phone will not be a viable point and shoot replacement. At all. You are going round in circles with these arguments, which are also dredged in the past. Let's agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vice Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 There is a problem with that argument. Physics disagrees. The sensors iPhones are so small the increasing pixel density WILL increase Ouse levels. The best camera you can get on a phone would bea 4-5 mega pixel high quality backlit sensor. Going higher than that induces more noise and lower quality pictures than that sensor would provide. There's also the glass aspect of course. Unfortunantely, average people, or rather the wast majority of people still eleven the more megapixels the better. Er just so you know the new iPhone 4S with its 8 Mega Pixel camera receives 70% more light per pixel than the 5 Mega Pixel Camera in the iPhone 4. So yeah physics does agree when you understand and compensate for the higher pixel density with wider apertures and backlight sensors that expose the CMOS sensor to more light. Just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkMan Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Hold your horses. Physics don't disagree at all. The iPhone 4S glass has changed, its a slightly enlarged aperture from what I gather too. There is also signal processing on the A5 chip that is cleaning the sensor image on the fly. All CMOS based cameras have noise and a host of other issues. But these newer breeds are different animal to those of 3-4 years ago. I think some people, such as yourself, are stuck in the megapixel argument. To an extent it's true, but these newer sensors aren't pushing the 14mpx envelope exactly are they. It's a clear focus on trying to make the iPhone / SII a viable replacement for a point and shoot camera, they both succeed. Hence they are a premium end phone. I will state right now that this phone will not be a viable point and shoot replacement. At all. You are going round in circles with these arguments, which are also dredged in the past. Let's agree to disagree. The physics I'm talking about don't have anything to do with the glass. The glass helps. But I'm talking with optimal glass and all that, unless phones increase the size of their lens and sensor. Physics means 4-5 megapixels is the optimal solution. Signal processing and post process noise reduction has a separate issueand nothing that should be counted in the base qualit of the camera as noise reduction itself reduces picture quality. Er just so you know the new iPhone 4S with its 8 Mega Pixel camera receives 70% more light per pixel than the 5 Mega Pixel Camera in the iPhone 4. So yeah physics does agree when you understand and compensate for the higher pixel density with wider apertures and backlight sensors that expose the CMOS sensor to more light. Just saying. Yes, but the iPhone 4 had a Terrible camera. The point still stands that if the iPhone 4S had used a 5 mpx camera with all the other improvements it would have been and even better camera. So why didn't they do this? Because 9 of 10 people still think that megapixels make a better camera. Especially on phones, because that's what the industry has thought them. Partly by not correcting them, and partly by making all phones with a 5mpx camera have plastic lenses and ****ty sensors. While they have only use the good hardware on the higher mpx cameras. Which is again because people think higher mpx is better, which again is because that's what they tell them. Circular argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccuk Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 The physics I'm talking about don't have anything to do with the glass. The glass helps. But I'm talking with optimal glass and all that, unless phones increase the size of their lens and sensor. Physics means 4-5 megapixels is the optimal solution. Signal processing and post process noise reduction has a separate issueand nothing that should be counted in the base qualit of the camera as noise reduction itself reduces picture quality. I'm sorry but you are wrong. The sensor density and sensitivity vary with manufacturing processes. Put quite simply, they got a lot better than you are referring. To say you are generalising would be an understatement, there are far too many variables involved. Also all sensors undergo image processing so it's a very big deal. What the sensor is doing raw means jack diddly as it's capture is thrown through the processing chip, that's the same for all camera phones. Let's get real and stop clutching at straws. Not all camera sensors are made equal, just as not all glass is made equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vice Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Yes, but the iPhone 4 had a Terrible camera. hahaha what planet are you from? It had one of the best cameras on a phone to date and still does if it wasn't for the camera on the Galaxy S II and iPhone 4S. Now I know you're just trolling. No other discussion necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccuk Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 Yes, but the iPhone 4 had a Terrible camera. The point still stands that if the iPhone 4S had used a 5 mpx camera with all the other improvements it would have been and even better camera. So why didn't they do this? Because 9 of 10 people still think that megapixels make a better camera. Especially on phones, because that's what the industry has thought them. Partly by not correcting them, and partly by making all phones with a 5mpx camera have plastic lenses and ****ty sensors. While they have only use the good hardware on the higher mpx cameras. Which is again because people think higher mpx is better, which again is because that's what they tell them. Circular argument. Say what? My discussion with you is over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkMan Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 hahaha what planet are you from? It had one of the best cameras on a phone to date and still does if it wasn't for the camera on the Galaxy S II and iPhone 4S. Now I know you're just trolling. No other discussion necessary. Having a better camera than the competition doesn't make it any less terrible. But then again, it wasn't that good. It was a plain average phone camera. Nokia N8 and the new SE Xperia phones(except the low end non exmor ones) had good cameras. The iPhones camera took pictures hat on a pure qualit level equaled that of the average HTC desire. Except iPhone added a lot of post processing to make them seem better, especially upping co.or saturation and contrast beyond what it should be. Because we generally find pictures Ike that more appealing. Wich is also why all tv come preset from the factory with that horrible dynamic contrast on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkMan Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 I'm sorry but you are wrong. The sensor density and sensitivity vary with manufacturing processes. Put quite simply, they got a lot better than you are referring. To say you are generalising would be an understatement, there are far too many variables involved. Also all sensors undergo image processing so it's a very big deal. What the sensor is doing raw means jack diddly as it's capture is thrown through the processing chip, that's the same for all camera phones. Let's get real and stop clutching at straws. Not all camera sensors are made equal, just as not all glass is made equal. What raw data the sensor works from matters quite a bit, that's what decides the base quality of the picture. I also don't think up you fully understand what I mean by physics and camera sensors. But no matter how much you improve the lass and sensor quality. A photon is a certain size, and when you increase the amount of pixels on a sensor without increasing the size of the sensor,theres only so many photons you can fit in each pixel. This means that a lower mpx sensor can have a better clearer picture than a hire mpx sensor. Given the same sensor quality, same lens quality and so on. Say what? My discussion with you is over. That's what happens when you don't have an argument ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccuk Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 What raw data the sensor works from matters quite a bit, that's what decides the base quality of the picture. I also don't think up you fully understand what I mean by physics and camera sensors. But no matter how much you improve the lass and sensor quality. A photon is a certain size, and when you increase the amount of pixels on a sensor without increasing the size of the sensor,theres only so many photons you can fit in each pixel. This means that a lower mpx sensor can have a better clearer picture than a hire mpx sensor. Given the same sensor quality, same lens quality and so on. That's what happens when you don't have an argument ;) Of course it matters, but it's not the be all and end all. It matters when we are talking about a 2/3 or 35mm, but in the realms of mobile phone cameras, they aren't taking studio photos. We are at a stage where post processing and mathematically compensating for inherent flaws in the sensors are taking pride of place despite improvements in image sensors. For mr consumer that's what matters. Which phone takes the cleanest sharpest nicest looking photo. Photons to my knowledge don't have a "size" unless you are referring to wavelength. CMOS sensors are laid out in such a way that light misses some of the sensor's pixels ( you are right about this, known as diffraction). As time progresses, the spacing is reduced as the fabrication processes improve and allow for smaller transistors. To compare a 5 mpx sensor made today with one made next year is silly. The 8mpx sensor in the iPhone 4S is offering 1080p recording and better sensitivity than the 5mpx ( don't believe this sensor is capable of 1080p?). That is a good reason to use it. This combined with the glass upgrade, larger aperture AND improved processing means it's a great camera. Stop arguing for arguments sake. It's rediculous. Vice 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HawkMan Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 And my point that YOU have been arguing, that I quite clearly stated I the first comment of this. Was that all else being equal, a sensor of the same quality as the new 8mpx sensor but with 5mpx would give better images. Never did I say that the iPhone 4S didn't have a better camera than the 4 or even most other phones out there. Not sure about the N8 and the exmor Xperia phones though. Also the actual argument that was on topic was the the fact that this phone had a 5 mpx camera made it a low end phone. Which it what I primarily contested. Then again, according to his own argument that would make the iPhone 4 a low end phone since it only had a 5 mpx camera when other high end phones where doing 8 and even 12 ;) :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts