uk Muslim medical students boycotting lectures on evolution

[chago12]

any other source other than that crappy tabloid?

[Xerax]

They better not get special compensation with marks.. I don't want a doctor who skipped half of his lectures operating/treating me..

[Muhammad Farrukh]

They better not get special compensation with marks.. I don't want a doctor who skipped half of his lectures operating/treating me..

Even if none of this would matter in proffessional life

They are demonstrating that they will prioritize their personal beliefs over the needs of their future patients.

Agreed but then again, I don't think they have much of a choice here

When it won't even matter in their proffessional life, I don't see a problem

[zhangm Supervisor]

When it won't even matter in their proffessional life, I don't see a problem

And what kind of doctors need not have any idea about evolution and what it means? Witch doctors? Evangelical healers?

[Stoffel]

It seems pretty straight forward, if you don't do the whole course you should not get your diploma.

Doesn't matter for what reason. If I don't like a subject and skip it they will fail me too.

No exceptions, not for your color of your skin, not for your religion. Everybody equal.

[Exaeus]

Even if none of this would matter in proffessional life Agreed but then again, I don't think they have much of a choice here When it won't even matter in their proffessional life, I don't see a problem

Wait, so first you ask whether knowledge about evolution is relevant to doctors, and when you're given information that it is you promptly ignore all of it and jump right to the unbelievably ignorant assumption that it isn't?

Are you here for logical discourse or just to spew nonsense?

[firey]

^^^

[Muhammad Farrukh]

Wait, so first you ask whether knowledge about evolution is relevant to doctors, and when you're given information that it is you promptly ignore all of it and jump right to the unbelievably ignorant assumption that it isn't?

Are you here for logical discourse or just to spew nonsense?

Go back and read my comment

[Exaeus]

Go back and read my comment

What are you talking about? The only thing in your comments are "I don't study medicine, is evolution relevant?" which jumps right to "Evolution doesn't matter, they'll still make good doctors" all while ignoring all the information to the contrary that was provided to you.

If those students are anything like you, I shudder to think of what would happen if they were let loose on unsuspecting patients.

[Quactaur]

Even if none of this would matter in proffessional life

Agreed but then again, I don't think they have much of a choice here

When it won't even matter in their proffessional life, I don't see a problem

It has profound consequences professionally.

Immunology is almost wholly predicated on the practical consequences of evolution. You can't understand the development of antibiotic-resistant bacteria, one of the biggest risks in hospitals, without accepting and moreover understanding evolution.

Genetics and its consequences are also impossible to approach if you're a creationist. Many physicians/GPs have to give ante-natal advice or screen children for birth defects if asked. This is literally impossible without catching the mechanism by which evolution takes place and examining it.

So yes, being a doctor requires you to appreciate evolution and its conseuqences. Make no mistake, these doctors will have to understand and apply it to become practitioners, though they will no doubt lie to themselves and convince themselves it isn't evolution. I know christian creationists use the macro-micro evolution distinction; a completely false and non-existant one mind you; to get around this. I don't know how islamic creationism allows you to cheat around it, given that it rejects even that distinction.

It's a huge problem, and it leads to tragedies. Channel 4 in the UK recently did a dispatches program on cousin marriage within pakistani and bangladeshi communities. This isn't a muslim issue per se, as it's a cultural practice from the region, but the creationist views of the parents means that they are in denial about the fact that they are increasingly bringing damaged and at risk children into the world through sustained inbreeding (cousin marriage once every few generations isn't a genetic problem, but to do it every generation builds up the risks of birth abnormalities). The explanation for this is entirely derived from evolution and genetics, so many muslims who practice cousin marriage refuse to believe it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1394119/Its-time-confront-taboo-First-cousin-marriages-Muslim-communities-putting-hundreds-children-risk.html

It was tragic, watching the film, listening to a devoutly religious woman say that God would not allow two religious muslims' child to be born defected by 'design', and that western medicine was to blame for her son's blindness and mental retardation.

To be clear, Bradford's NHS (hospital system) actually have a specialised genetic screening unit that no other NHS in the country does, because cousin marriage and the associated birth defects are such a big problem in the community.

[insanelyapple]

Daily Mail? Seriously?

Interesting case anyway; they should really make up their minds and made an important choice: staying with oppressive monotheistic religion and became in future one of those bearded guys with only two purposes in life - fighting with infidel and milking UK social OR choosing science path - medical studies, which can give them job, career path and opportunity to improve themselves, their lives and saving other people's lives.

[Quactaur]

Daily Mail? Seriously?

Interesting case anyway; they should really make up their minds and made an important choice: staying with oppressive monotheistic religion and became in future one of those bearded guys with only two purposes in life - fighting with infidel and milking UK social OR choosing science path - medical studies, which can give them job, career path and opportunity to improve themselves, their lives and saving other people's lives.

Yes daily mail because the article is still good. Most of the interviews are with muslim caseworkers and doctors anyway.

Here's another link : http://www.bionews.org.uk/page_12568.asp

And here's an NHS / University of Bradford conference about it : http://www.brad.ac.uk/communitygenetics/files/cousin-fillable-1.pdf

Practised within at least 20% of communities worldwide, consanguineous marriage is an aspect of the

diverse kinship patterns in multi-ethnic Britain. Linked to an increased prevalence of inherited autosomal

recessive disorders, it raises issues about the nature and delivery of genetic and related health and social

care services.

[Muhammad Farrukh]

Look, you are right, from your perspective, they should not get their degrees and should go out and choose another profession.

But the thing is, it contradicts their beliefs, the thing they believe in. They are not kids, 12 year old ones who will busy themselves in something else just to get a toffee or bubble-gum.

These are adults and they just didn't happen to picked this profession up.

It'll be extremely hard to imagine, I know, but lets say you are an aethiest, I don't know if you are or not but lets assume, and in college or university, there is a compulsory lecture regarding religious beliefs and God and no one will pass the final tests if they didn't attend the lecture.

What would you do if, beyond those tests, were the profession of your dream, what you always wanted. Even if the lecture had nothing to do with your upcoming degree and career

Of course you would do the same thing and get your voice heard by the world, and they are doing the same thing.

You can't blame them at all.

[Crisp]

If religion is that important to you, become a preacher not a doctor.

[Muhammad Farrukh]

If religion is that important to you, become a preacher not a doctor.

Now we are talking non-sense

[Rippleman]

they better teach the great spaghetti man in the sky too or i am walking out!

[Stoffel]

Look, you are right, from your perspective, they should not get their degrees and should go out and choose another profession.

But the thing is, it contradicts their beliefs, the thing they believe in. They are not kids, 12 year old ones who will busy themselves in something else just to get a toffee or bubble-gum.

These are adults and they just didn't happen to picked this profession up.

It'll be extremely hard to imagine, I know, but lets say you are an aethiest, I don't know if you are or not but lets assume, and in college or university, there is a compulsory lecture regarding religious beliefs and God and no one will pass the final tests if they didn't attend the lecture.

What would you do if, beyond those tests, were the profession of your dream, what you always wanted. Even if the lecture had nothing to do with your upcoming degree and career

Of course you would do the same thing and get your voice heard by the world, and they are doing the same thing.

You can't blame them at all.

I'm not really big on religion, but at college one of my lectures was about religion (i studies computer science but at a katholic college) and there was no way for me to skip this class if i wanted to pass. No for my studies, this class wasn't even necesary. I was not going to be a better or worse computer programmer by going or skipping this course.

In medicine on the other hand, evolution theory is pretty important to function as a knowlegable doctor.

So if they won't accept this theory how can they become propper doctors?

[Anibal P]

This is probably better as a separate thread BUT

I'm a Christian, creationist, I also realize that Darwinist Evolution is based on real and proper science

I find nothing in the Bible (Muslims allowed, what does the Qur'An say about this?) that says that evolution doesn't happen, call me crazy but I can claim easily that God created everything, put it all in motion and let nature do it's thing, that includes evolution, and survival of the fittest.

My Challenge, prove me wrong, show me proof in the Bible/Torah/Qur'An that proves Evolution is not real. I already know you can't, my Mom can't, she's a Minister AND is finishing up a Theology degree, and she can't disprove it.

[Muhammad Farrukh]

This is probably better as a separate thread BUT

I'm a Christian, creationist, I also realize that Darwinist Evolution is based on real and proper science

I find nothing in the Bible (Muslims allowed, what does the Qur'An say about this?) that says that evolution doesn't happen, call me crazy but I can claim easily that God created everything, put it all in motion and let nature do it's thing, that includes evolution, and survival of the fittest.

My Challenge, prove me wrong, show me proof in the Bible/Torah/Qur'An that proves Evolution is not real. I already know you can't, my Mom can't, she's a Minister AND is finishing up a Theology degree, and she can't disprove it.

It is fairly possible that evolution did happened and God let it happen, Himself. It is extremely possible

[+Gary7 Subscriber²]

It is fairly possible that evolution did happened and God let it happen, Himself. It is extremely possible

Indeed, someone had to create the first thing that was evolved from.

[Anibal P]

It is fairly possible that evolution did happened and God let it happen, Himself. It is extremely possible

That's my point, how can something that we agree is possible be against your religion? Sounds like someone is just picking and choosing things for other purposes.

[insanelyapple]

Now we are talking non-sense

Why? For me, its very simple - religion is your personal business and it shouldnt interfere with your job, your position.

[Exaeus]

What would you do if, beyond those tests, were the profession of your dream, what you always wanted. Even if the lecture had nothing to do with your upcoming degree and career

You're still not listening.

His entire post was explaining to you why professionals in the medical field need to know about evolution and its effects, yet you don't even acknowledge a single thing he said, much less offer a rebuttal, and continue to repeat your flawed opinions as your main premise as though you can turn nonsense into fact if you chant it again and again enough times.

Indeed, someone had to create the first thing that was evolved from.

Okay. So who created the someone who created the first thing that evolved, then?

[insanelyapple]

Okay. So who created the someone who created the first thing that evolved, then?

Noone; probably before current universe there was just another one. http://en.wikipedia....ki/Cyclic_model

[Stoffel]

Okay. So who created the someone who created the first thing that evolved, then?

Now you are just being silly, we all know that God has always been there, no need to create him :D