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No right to pray for Muslim pupil at German school

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+Frank B.    7,154

No right to pray for Muslim pupil at German school

Germany's top administrative court has ruled that a student does not have an automatic right to pray at school.

The case was brought by an 18-year-old Muslim pupil at a Berlin school after he was told by his head teacher that prayer was not allowed on the school grounds.

The teenager and several other pupils kneeled in a hallway during a break to pray.

The court found that the school could ban prayer if the act caused conflict.

The decision brings to an end a four-year legal battle by the pupil, Yunus Mitschele.

He is a student at a grammar school in the mixed area of Wedding, which had experienced clashes between groups of Muslim students over prayer rituals.

The court found that the conflict that might be expected at the school if religious acts were allowed would be beyond the level that school staff could deal with. Setting aside a room specifically for prayer would be beyond the organisational capacity of the school, it said.

The judges at the Federal Administrative Court, in Leipzig, stressed that the ruling did not mean that no student could pray at school. The decision should be made on a case by case basis.

The German constitution guarantees freedom of religion and so a school pupil would generally be entitled to pray when at school, outside of lesson times.

Judge Werner Neumann said that a school must decide if it is really necessary "to restrict religious freedom in order to keep the peace at the school".

Source: BBC News

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Muhammad Farrukh    1,080

And earlier we were talking about how liberal, secular and civilized the West is.

(Y)

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Seizure1990    252

That's pretty disgusting.

And earlier we were talking about how liberal, secular and civilized the West is.

(Y)

Dunno about other countries, but here in the US, that sort of thing would be covered by free speech/right to practice. (Y)

PS: Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. The Arab countries you're comparing to "The West" have some of the worst track records in (recent) history for religious tolerance.

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Muhammad Farrukh    1,080

PS: Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. The Arab countries you're comparing to "The West" have some of the worst track records in (recent) history for religious tolerance.

You are right. Kind of.

But then again they don't claim to be liberal and civilized as often as Arab do

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FloatingFatMan    20,934

That's pretty disgusting.

Dunno about other countries, but here in the US, that sort of thing would be covered by free speech/right to practice. (Y)

PS: Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. The Arab countries you're comparing to "The West" have some of the worst track records in (recent) history for religious tolerance.

Not in PUBLIC schools it wouldn't be. If he wants to pray, that's fine, but not on the taxpayers cent. He should either go to a more appropriate Muslim school, or take care of his prayers before and after school.

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Seizure1990    252

Not in PUBLIC schools it wouldn't be. If he wants to pray, that's fine, but not on the taxpayers cent. He should either go to a more appropriate Muslim school, or take care of his prayers before and after school.

Sorry, nope.

If my future son decides to stop at his locker, or at the lunch table, and make a prayer, then I'll be damned if he isn't allowed to.

US = freedom of religion, NOT freedom from religion

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FloatingFatMan    20,934

Sorry, nope.

If my future son decides to stop at his locker, or at the lunch table, and make a prayer, then I'll be damned if he isn't allowed to.

From my understanding of US law, such things are barred in PUBLIC schools, due to that whole legally required seperation of church and state. Some schools allow it, but are under no legal requirement to do so.

Private schools are a different matter and they can do whatever they want.

The same legal requirements apply to Germany as well, as far as I know. It's purely discretionary, and can be banned if its disruptive. Of course, they'd have to ban ALL religions from doing the same thing.

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shakey    1,127

Sorry, nope.

If my future son decides to stop at his locker, or at the lunch table, and make a prayer, then I'll be damned if he isn't allowed to.

You have freedom of religion, but not freedom to practice it any and everytime/where you want. This is a society, and we should all try to accommodate everyone else. This would be done more easily by leaving such things at home or at the appropriate places. There is a reason you have churchs and other buildings built directly for worshiping.

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Seizure1990    252

You have freedom of religion, but not freedom to practice it any and everytime/where you want. This is a society, and we should all try to accommodate everyone else. This would be done more easily by leaving such things at home or at the appropriate places. There is a reason you have churchs and other buildings built directly for worshiping.

I think you misworded your statement there. What you meant to say is that all the religious people should accommodate the non-religious people, because that's where you seem to be going.

How about you accommodate me by not getting in a huff over something that has absolutely no effect on you? At what point during my prayers at the lunch table do I start harming you or infringing on your freedoms?

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Crisp    3,271

Rastafarians should be allowed to smoke drugs at school.

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Seizure1990    252

From my understanding of US law, such things are barred in PUBLIC schools, due to that whole legally required seperation of church and state. Some schools allow it, but are under no legal requirement to do so.

Private schools are a different matter and they can do whatever they want.

The same legal requirements apply to Germany as well, as far as I know. It's purely discretionary, and can be banned if its disruptive. Of course, they'd have to ban ALL religions from doing the same thing.

I'm pretty sure you're wrong, but neither of us are lawyers. What I do know is that your interpretation is definitely not enforced, at the very least.

The part you mentioned at the end about disruption is pretty key though. If something is disruptive, obviously, it has to be considered. Coincedentally...

Rastafarians should be allowed to smoke drugs at school.

Great comparison! On the scale of how you are affecting others, smoking a fat doobie right in the middle of class totally equates to a silent prayer!

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ArialBlue    395

They should be allowed to pray as long as others can wear "God hates Arabs" t-shirts

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FMH    717

France and Germany are spreading hatred recently. It's shameful.

With rulings like these.

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FloatingFatMan    20,934

I'm pretty sure you're wrong, but neither of us are lawyers. What I do know is that your interpretation is definitely not enforced, at the very least.

There have been multiple articles, posted on these very boards, where EXACTLY what I describe has happened and Muslims have kicked up a fuss over it, and lost.

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+Frank B.    7,154

Germany is a secular country. Public schools are meant to be neutral towards all religions. Teaching about religions is fine; making exceptions for a single student so he can pray isn't. If you want to pray, do it outside of the school's premises.

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Seizure1990    252

There have been multiple articles, posted on these very boards, where EXACTLY what I describe has happened and Muslims have kicked up a fuss over it, and lost.

I never hear the same about other religions, so I'm inclined to question what exactly the motives are behind it, and why Muslims are being singled out. All I know is that if I were making a small prayer at school between classes, and someone came and stopped me, I'd throw a hell of a "fuss" too. Mainly because that's wrong and directly conflicts with my freedom of expression.

Edit: Also, what countries? You live in the UK. I live in the US.

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ArialBlue    395

France and Germany are spreading hatred recently. It's shameful.

With rulings like these.

No. They are trying to preserve their culture and history.

Americans might not be able to undertsand that.

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HighwayGlider    217
The judges at the Federal Administrative Court, in Leipzig, stressed that the ruling did not mean that no student could pray at school. The decision should be made on a case by case basis.

Praying at school is not an issue... This is on a case to case basis. So, in schools where praying does not conflict with anything, students are free to pray.

I never hear the same about other religions, so I'm inclined to question what exactly the motives are behind it, and why Muslims are being singled out. All I know is that if I were making a small prayer at school between classes, and someone came and stopped me, I'd throw a hell of a "fuss" too. Mainly because that's wrong and directly conflicts with my freedom of expression.

Edit: Also, what countries? You live in the UK. I live in the US.

Couldn't agree more.

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Seizure1990    252

No. They are trying to preserve their culture and history.

Americans might not be able to undertsand that.

Americans understand the importance of preserving your history and culture while still accepting new ideas and ways of thinking, so as to further enrich your culture.

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shakey    1,127

I think you misworded your statement there. What you meant to say is that all the religious people should accommodate the non-religious people, because that's where you seem to be going.

How about you accommodate me by not getting in a huff over something that has absolutely no effect on you? At what point during my prayers at the lunch table do I start harming you or infringing on your freedoms?

How about you accommodate everyone by keeping your beliefs to yourself and out of the public... wait, instead, you need to feel that you are oppressed, and cry out that others should accommodate everyone else's beliefs.... you pick the much harder route to accommodate everyone by. Better to make easier rules, and as such, everyone should keep their beliefs to themselves and out of the public.

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qdave    159

You go to school to study not pray.

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Seizure1990    252

How about you accommodate everyone by keeping your beliefs to yourself and out of the public... wait, instead, you need to feel that you are oppressed, and cry out that others should accommodate everyone else's beliefs.... you pick the much harder route to accommodate everyone by. Better to make easier rules, and as such, everyone should keep their beliefs to themselves and out of the public.

You still havent explained how I am harming you or infringing on your rights. I am waiting for your answer with great anticipation, because that is the only reason I can think of to legally bar someone from doing something.

Alternative response: I think you should keep your opinions about religion out of this public forum. I've seen your posts. ;)

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ncoday    441

From my understanding of US law, such things are barred in PUBLIC schools, due to that whole legally required seperation of church and state. Some schools allow it, but are under no legal requirement to do so.

Private schools are a different matter and they can do whatever they want.

The same legal requirements apply to Germany as well, as far as I know. It's purely discretionary, and can be banned if its disruptive. Of course, they'd have to ban ALL religions from doing the same thing.

According to my understanding, the constitution only guarantees the government will not make an institution that favors any particular religion, such as the British Government did many 100's of years ago. It does not guarantee freedom of religion. Freedom to practice religion generally falls under Freedom of Speech.

I fully agree that students should be able to practice their religion in school SO LONG as it does not interfere with normal school functions. An example would sacrificing an animal as part of a religious practice would not be allowed. However, I support Muslims stopping to pray in school. They just cannot do it in the middle of the hallway where it would interfere with other student's ability to get to class or use the hallway.

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Seizure1990    252

You go to school to study not pray.

Very true! While we're at it, let's ban drinking, eating, chatting in the halls, hugging, handshakes, physical contact of any kind, listening to music (even between classes), and anything else you can think of.

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Shadrack    601
The court found that the conflict that might be expected at the school if religious acts were allowed would be beyond the level that school staff could deal with. Setting aside a room specifically for prayer would be beyond the organisational capacity of the school, it said.

If the school staff prevented someone from praying at recess or w/e then I can see a pretty big problem with that. That doesn't seem to be the case here, where students are basically asking for a room specifically for prayer to meet their individual religious needs. This is something entirely different than denying someone religious freedom.

In the US, freedom of religion tends to be interpreted/implemented as you are free to have whatever religious thoughts you have and free to express your religion so long as that expression is not in conflict with local laws. There are some exceptions to this, for instance Navajo being allowed to partake of Peyote as part of their ceremonies.

If an employer hires a christian for a job that requires him to work on Sunday, and they skimp out on work in order to attend church they will probably be fired and do not have any right to sue the employer over violation of religious freedom.

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