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No right to pray for Muslim pupil at German school

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Seizure1990    252

I fully agree that students should be able to practice their religion in school SO LONG as it does not interfere with normal school functions. An example would sacrificing an animal as part of a religious practice would not be allowed. However, I support Muslims stopping to pray in school. They just cannot do it in the middle of the hallway where it would interfere with other student's ability to get to class or use the hallway.

I completely agree. Obviously, if something is disruptive, it shouldn't be allowed, but that goes for anything, not just prayers.

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ncoday    441

No. They are trying to preserve their culture and history.

Americans might not be able to undertsand that.

So they are preserving their culture and history by preventing someone else from practicing their religion?? :|

Please explain that one to me.

We understand the preservation of culture and history very well. We just don't prevent a student from practicing their religion.

[/font]

If the school staff prevented someone from praying at recess or w/e then I can see a pretty big problem with that. That doesn't seem to be the case here, where students are basically asking for a room specifically for prayer to meet their individual religious needs. This is something entirely different than denying someone religious freedom.

In the US, freedom of religion tends to be interpreted/implemented as you are free to have whatever religious thoughts you have and free to express your religion so long as that expression is not in conflict with local laws.

If an employer hires a christian for a job that requires him to work on Sunday, and they skimp out on work in order to attend church they will probably be fired and do not have any right to sue the employer over violation of religious freedom.

Your argument on the last part is very flawed. Religious Freedom does not give you the right to practice your religion at the expense of a business. Here is what the First Amendment says:

" Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

This has nothing to do with a business being required to not schedule you on a day of your religion's holiday/observance.

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Muhammad Farrukh    1,080

Very true! While we're at it, let's ban drinking, eating, chatting in the halls, hugging, handshakes, physical contact of any kind, listening to music (even between classes), and anything else you can think of.

Spoken the truth, my friend (Y)

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FloatingFatMan    20,950

I never hear the same about other religions, so I'm inclined to question what exactly the motives are behind it, and why Muslims are being singled out. All I know is that if I were making a small prayer at school between classes, and someone came and stopped me, I'd throw a hell of a "fuss" too. Mainly because that's wrong and directly conflicts with my freedom of expression.

Edit: Also, what countries? You live in the UK. I live in the US.

Maybe because people of other religions aren't required to pray 3-5 times during the course of the day, so they can take care of it in private? Maybe becuase other religious folks don't have an exaggerated sense of entitlement? Maybe because the press just likes to exaggerate stories involving Islam? Don't know, don't care.

I DO know, however, that multiple similar stories have been posted on here, mostly involving American schools but some European, where Muslims have demanded certain priviledges different to everyone else, and then got all butthurt when told no.

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Tom    1,190

Well this is an interesting discussion to say the least...

On one hand, she's in school and the purpose of going to school is to learn however a two minute prayer (I'm guessing how long it takes) doesn't really affect anyone, on the basis it's done in her own time (i.e play time). If she wants to pray away, let her.. she's not affecting other kids nor is she wasting any learning time. Granted shes losing a little play time but that's her choice.

Also I'll mention I'm secular. (Y)

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Shadrack    601

So they are preserving their culture and history by preventing someone else from practicing their religion?? :|

Please explain that one to me.

We understand the preservation of culture and history very well. We just don't prevent a student from practicing their religion.

Your argument on the last part is very flawed. Religious Freedom does not give you the right to practice your religion at the expense of a business. Here is what the First Amendment says:

" Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

This has nothing to do with a business being required to not schedule you on a day of your religion's holiday/observance.

I do not see how what you are saying proves that my argument is flawed. If anything it just further supports the argument I was making. I said that a business could not be sued by a (former) employee in my scenario. It may not have been a very relevant hypotehtical for this discussion, but I disagree that it is a flawed argument and your post seems to add support to my argument...so.....

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FloatingFatMan    20,950

I fully agree that students should be able to practice their religion in school SO LONG as it does not interfere with normal school functions. An example would sacrificing an animal as part of a religious practice would not be allowed. However, I support Muslims stopping to pray in school. They just cannot do it in the middle of the hallway where it would interfere with other student's ability to get to class or use the hallway.

Nor should they be excused from classes to attend prayer, or be granted school facilities if that would take such facilities away from school usage (setting aside a room permanently, for example).

If they want to go to some out of the way place during break and pray, they can do that fine, but not in the halls, and not during class.

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Seizure1990    252

Maybe because people of other religions aren't required to pray 3-5 times during the course of the day, so they can take care of it in private? Maybe becuase other religious folks don't have an exaggerated sense of entitlement? Maybe because the press just likes to exaggerate stories involving Islam? Don't know, don't care.

I DO know, however, that multiple similar stories have been posted on here, mostly involving American schools but some European, where Muslims have demanded certain priviledges different to everyone else, and then got all butthurt when told no.

I don't know the details of those stories. Entirely possible they were asking for more then just the right to quietly pray?

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FloatingFatMan    20,950

I don't know the details of those stories. Entirely possible they were asking for more then just the right to quietly pray?

From what I remember, they generally were demanding to be excused from class to take a 10 minute prayer break 3-5 times a day, they wanted seperate dedicated prayer rooms for boys and girls, as they're supposed to be segregated during prayer for some idiot reason, and they wanted the school to provide such facilities at the schools cost.

All of that is a big no.

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Crisp    3,271

Why can't one understand that if you migrate to another country you abide by their rules?

If I move to a Muslim country, I would live by their ways. Don't get me wrong, if religion is such a big part of your life, do it in your own time.

The hole system shouldn't have to change, because you are different.

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Shadrack    601

Why can't one understand that if you migrate to another country you abide by their rules?

If I move to a Muslim country, I would live by their ways. Don't get me wrong, if religion is such a big part of your life, do it in your own time.

The hole system shouldn't have to change, because you are different.

I agree. I'll make a very generalized statement here: it seems like Muslims leave their crappy oppressed theocracies and then try to change the countries they take refuge in to be more like the crappy oppressed theocracies they left.

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Glassed Silver    940

Not having read the whole thread, it's important to note that the judges made clear this is a per-case decision, taking into account the circumstances of the individual here.

It's not a general decision, you'll still be able to pray - no matter your religion.

The reason this guy is not allowed to is based on a (found to be legal) decision by the school, that due to the clash of 5 religions with many conflicts at that particular school, any very open exposure and practice is forbidden.

There have been incidents based on this at that school and they decided to take action against it.

Whilst I do NOT agree that this is an overly graceful way of handling it, you cannot stress enough that this is NOT doubting the freedom of practicing your religion in general.

It's not a muslim problem, it's not a religion problem, it's a conflict prevention problem.

Glassed Silver:mac

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firey    4,153

Good! Religion should stay in the home, churches, or in relgion backed schools. There is no need for it in the public. If I saw any of them kneeling I'd laugh at them, mock them, then proceed to kick 'em.

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Seizure1990    252

Why can't one understand that if you migrate to another country you abide by their rules?

If I move to a Muslim country, I would live by their ways. Don't get me wrong, if religion is such a big part of your life, do it in your own time.

The hole system shouldn't have to change, because you are different.

What part of the system must change to allow someoe to pray, assuming they don't do so in a disruptive manner and/or at inappropriate times?

From what I remember, they generally were demanding to be excused from class to take a 10 minute prayer break 3-5 times a day, they wanted seperate dedicated prayer rooms for boys and girls, as they're supposed to be segregated during prayer for some idiot reason, and they wanted the school to provide such facilities at the schools cost.

All of that is a big no.

I agree. Nothing of that has to do though with simply praying in the schoolyard or at lunch.

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articuno1au    1,264

Sorry, nope.

If my future son decides to stop at his locker, or at the lunch table, and make a prayer, then I'll be damned if he isn't allowed to.

US = freedom of religion, NOT freedom from religion

Let's start with the basics.

Germany != United States of America.

Everything after that is just so much "remember you aren't the world police".

From my understanding of US law, such things are barred in PUBLIC schools, due to that whole legally required seperation of church and state. Some schools allow it, but are under no legal requirement to do so.

Private schools are a different matter and they can do whatever they want.

The same legal requirements apply to Germany as well, as far as I know. It's purely discretionary, and can be banned if its disruptive. Of course, they'd have to ban ALL religions from doing the same thing.

Technically it is. The problem is you have so many god damn bible bashers you can't keep that kind of thing going.

I think you misworded your statement there. What you meant to say is that all the religious people should accommodate the non-religious people, because that's where you seem to be going.

How about you accommodate me by not getting in a huff over something that has absolutely no effect on you? At what point during my prayers at the lunch table do I start harming you or infringing on your freedoms?

You praying at a lunch table is a far cry from the prostration required by the Islamic faith.

It's a fire hazard as much as anything else, and it makes the people praying a target for any number of people.

--

For the rest, tl;dr.

Some of you people.. /sigh

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Seizure1990    252

Good! Religion should stay in the home, churches, or in relgion backed schools. There is no need for it in the public. If I saw any of them kneeling I'd laugh at them, mock them, then proceed to kick 'em.

Yea, seriously! Religious is a scourge on our society! Now watch as I brag about mocking and physically hurting people!

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+Gary7    7,591

That's pretty disgusting.

Dunno about other countries, but here in the US, that sort of thing would be covered by free speech/right to practice. (Y)

PS: Those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. The Arab countries you're comparing to "The West" have some of the worst track records in (recent) history for religious tolerance.

Not so sure, prayer was removed from public schools years ago.

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firey    4,153

Yea, seriously! Religious is a scourge on our society! Now watch as I brag about mocking and physically hurting people!

I wasn't serious about the last bit, but I am serious that I think Religion should be a personal affair, and it has no place in public. People shouldn't have to watch where they walk because people start kneeling in the hallways, that's a safety AND fire hazard.

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Seizure1990    252

Let's start with the basics.

Germany != United States of America.

Everything after that is just so much "remember you aren't the world police".

That was pretty clear, and the conversation had moved on. Nor does me living in USA prevent me from voicing my opinions on the wrongess of Germany's decision.

You praying at a lunch table is a far cry from the prostration required by the Islamic faith.

It's a fire hazard as much as anything else, and it makes the people praying a target for any number of people.

It's even a fire hazard if you do it in a corner of the school yard, or out of the way in an empty room or quiet hall space? I guess all of gym class is a fire hazard, what with us lying all over the floor doing stretches.

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Glassed Silver    940

Yea, seriously! Religious is a scourge on our society! Now watch as I brag about mocking and physically hurting people!

This.

Also guys, read my comment above.

It takes away lots of wind in your discussion.

Glassed Silver:mac

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Crisp    3,271

What part of the system must change to allow someoe to pray, assuming they don't do so in a disruptive manner and/or at inappropriate times?

I agree. Nothing of that has to do though with simply praying in the schoolyard or at lunch.

You're offended because you've been disallowed to pray. I'm offended because I don't want to see brain washed people pray. There's no end to the argument. Keep your personal crap at home.

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Seizure1990    252

I wasn't serious about the last bit, but I am serious that I think Religion should be a personal affair, and it has no place in public. People shouldn't have to watch where they walk because people start kneeling in the hallways, that's a safety AND fire hazard.

I agree, why are you assuming the only way to pray is to become a fire hazard? God never said "Thou shalt be a nuisance when thou honors me" :p

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articuno1au    1,264

I lied, let me continue..

Americans understand the importance of preserving your history and culture while still accepting new ideas and ways of thinking, so as to further enrich your culture.

I'm beyond dumb struck by this particular statement. This from a country which regularly gets up in arms about a baby being aborted..

From a country where in the "religious" factor can be shown to have an affect on your voting habits.. So long as that religion is Christianity.. In a country with a clear definition between church and state and regularly has prayer sessions at the start of legislative sittings..

Need I continue?

You still havent explained how I am harming you or infringing on your rights. I am waiting for your answer with great anticipation, because that is the only reason I can think of to legally bar someone from doing something.

Alternative response: I think you should keep your opinions about religion out of this public forum. I've seen your posts. ;)

You seem to fail to understand that prayer is not a RIGHT. You (like many Americans) do not understand what a RIGHT is.

Right of religion allows you the ability to choose your own religion and practice it. It does not allow you to then use that right as a justification to do whatever you feel like.

Note the lack of "my religion allowed me to steal that car" defences.. Although unfortunately you guys try that one often enough to make my point a little shaky :\

I completely agree. Obviously, if something is disruptive, it shouldn't be allowed, but that goes for anything, not just prayers.

Yes, but I think you will find people only bother to sue for religious stuff.

When someone doesn't let you do whatever you want, you reach for lawyers. It's the American dream.. In Germany..

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Glassed Silver    940

You're offended because you've been disallowed to pray. I'm offended because I don't want to see brain washed people pray. There's no end to the argument. Keep your personal crap at home.

Exactly, leave your printed t-shirts at home!

</s>

:rolleyes:

Glassed Silver:mac

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Seizure1990    252

You're offended because you've been disallowed to pray. I'm offended because I don't want to see brain washed people pray. There's no end to the argument. Keep your personal crap at home.

Actually, the difference is that you can just look away, and that while I have a right to freedom of expression, you don't have a right to control what I do based on what you do or don't want to see. That is, in fact, the entire point of freedom of expression/speech. Sorry.

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