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No right to pray for Muslim pupil at German school

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Crisp    3,271

Actually, the difference is that you can just look away, and that while I have a right to freedom of expression, you don't have a right to control what I do based on what you do or don't want to see. That is, in fact, the entire point of freedom of expression/speech. Sorry.

You're right, I'm going to open Catholic Churches all over Israel and during school hours student are allowed to leave their lessons and go pray to GOD in them. Freedrom of expression, right?

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shakey    1,127

How many religions are there, worldwide?

  1. Christianity: 2.1 billion
  2. Islam: 1.5 billion
  3. Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
  4. Hinduism: 900 million
  5. Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
  6. Buddhism: 376 million
  7. primal-indigenous: 300 million
  8. African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
  9. Sikhism: 23 million
  10. Juche: 19 million
  11. Spiritism: 15 million
  12. Judaism: 14 million
  13. Baha'i: 7 million
  14. Jainism: 4.2 million
  15. Shinto: 4 million
  16. Cao Dai: 4 million
  17. Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
  18. Tenrikyo: 2 million
  19. Neo-Paganism: 1 million
  20. Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
  21. Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
  22. Scientology: 500 thousand

There are the 22 most popular. So, we should just start accommodating every single one of them, with their own places, in every public building? Really? Do you , or can you, comprehend the vast insanity that a person would go through trying to do as such? It is much easier if everyone would just keep their beliefs to themselves, their home, and their designated place of worship.

There is no need to go forcing the public to accommodate for each different religions needs.

( Though I don't see how agnostic or Atheist could be considered as a "religion". It's like saying all those who don't believe in Santa are a religion...)

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Seizure1990    252

I lied, let me continue..

I'm beyond dumb struck by this particular statement. This from a country which regularly gets up in arms about a baby being aborted..

Huh? I don't... abortion is the right of the woman.... next? :)

From a country where in the "religious" factor can be shown to have an affect on your voting habits.. So long as that religion is Christianity.. In a country with a clear definition between church and state and regularly has prayer sessions at the start of legislative sittings..

Need I continue?

I think so, because I didn't understand what you are getting at. Only that you're offended at the mere mention of religion in a public setting.

You seem to fail to understand that prayer is not a RIGHT. You (like many Americans) do not understand what a RIGHT is.

Actually, you're wrong. Here in America, we have the right to freedom of speech, which my prayers fall under, and so long as those prayers don't infringe on someone else's rights, or break the law somehow, then it's my right.

Right of religion allows you the ability to choose your own religion and practice it. It does not allow you to then use that right as a justification to do whatever you feel like.

Note the lack of "my religion allowed me to steal that car" defences.. Although unfortunately you guys try that one often enough to make my point a little shaky :\

You're right. Now what does stealing cars have to do with praying quietly to yourself in a public setting?

Yes, but I think you will find people only bother to sue for religious stuff.

Lolwut, are you joking?

When someone doesn't let you do whatever you want, you reach for lawyers. It's the American dream.

You're telling me! I ****ing hate it!

Having said that, we have it for a reason, and abused or not, the system serves its purpose. :)

----------------------------

You're right, I'm going to open Catholic Churches all over Israel and during school hours student are allowed to leave their lessons and go pray to GOD in them. Freedrom of expression, right?

I'm ok with that minus the part where school children leave class to go pray. That's not ok. Carry on otherwise though.

Just know that you won't be the first. Israel already has churches.

----------------------------

There are the 22 most popular. So, we should just start accommodating every single one of them, with their own places, in every public building? Really? Do you , or can you, comprehend the vast insanity that a person would go through trying to do as such? It is much easier if everyone would just keep their beliefs to themselves, their home, and their designated place of worship.

There is no need to go forcing the public to accommodate for each different religions needs.

( Though I don't see how agnostic or Atheist could be considered as a "religion". It's like saying all those who don't believe in Santa are a religion...)

Why are you jumping from non-disruptive prayers to having to give a separate prayer room to everyone who asks for it?

Quit with the strawman tactic, it's boring.

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shakey    1,127

Why are you jumping from non-disruptive prayers to having to give a separate prayer room to everyone who asks for it?

Quit with the strawman tactic, it's boring.

LOL, see the hypocrisy. It's ok as long as it is just these kids doing it. But not for everyone else.... You do realize how close minded and hypocritical you are. If you are to allow 1 to do so, you must allow all. If not, you are only oppressing others, and we already know how you don't want to oppress a person from expressing their religion... Closed minded people make for funny yet very irritating discussions.

Aww, you edited your post to make it not reflect it....

So as long as it is only these 4 or 5 kids, of this religion, it is ok? But no more. Because then that is just of course going to cause a disruption....

You fail to even realize what other religions sometimes ask of their followers. Do you even know anything outside of your own religion? Not all religions call for prayer 5 times a day. Some religions require a lot more. Some religions require the person to do some other necessary things upon prayer. Shouldn't we, as you said it would oppress them if not, allow them to pray in school?

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Seizure1990    252

LOL, see the hypocrisy. It's ok as long as it is just these kids doing it. But not for everyone else.... You do realize how close minded and hypocritical you are. If you are to allow 1 to do so, you must allow all. If not, you are only oppressing others, and we already know how you don't want to oppress a person from expressing their religion... Closed minded people make for funny yet very irritating discussions.

What exactly are you on about? Everyone should be free to pray. Everyone.

However, I never said that everyone has the right to their own religion-specific prayer room in every public building. Where exactly are you drawing these connections from? Perhaps there's a misunderstanding here as to what we are arguing about?

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shakey    1,127

What exactly are you on about? Everyone should be free to pray. Everyone.

However, I never said that everyone has the right to their own religion-specific prayer room in every public building. Where exactly are you drawing these connections from? Perhaps there's a misunderstanding here as to what we are arguing about?

K, no room, but everyone can pray in the hallways as you have already said... but see, you don't even understand other religions to then be able to understand how stupid of a idea it would be to try and accommodate everyone's special needs.

You said that it is oppression to not allow them to pray in school. So why would it still not be considered oppression in any other public building?

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JaredFrost    320

Why are you jumping from non-disruptive prayers to having to give a separate prayer room to everyone who asks for it?

This particular case WAS about giving Muslim students at the school separate rooms to pray in.

And just for the record, I too am for leaving prayers from anyone out of public spaces, religion should be a private matter between you and your God, not everyone within sight.

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Seizure1990    252

K, no room, but everyone can pray in the hallways as you have already said... but see, you don't even understand other religions to then be able to understand how stupid of a idea it would be to try and accommodate everyone's special needs.

You said that it is oppression to not allow them to pray in school. So why would it still not be considered oppression in any other public building?

That entire post was "yea, well.... you just don't understand, stupid!"

Then some other point that I'm not even following, because it's either yet another thing I never said, or just gibberish.

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margrave    1,536

Before it's over no one will be allowed to believe in anything in the name of peace....

Hmmm...

Conquering with peace, where have I heard that before?

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Seizure1990    252

This particular case WAS about giving Muslim students at the school separate rooms to pray in.

And just for the record, I too am for leaving prayers from anyone out of public spaces, religion should be a private matter between you and your God, not everyone within sight.

Other posts in here have said that it was about praying in a schoolyard, so I dunno.

And for the record, I believe religion should be a matter that you are free to express as you wish, so long as you don't harm others.

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Shadrack    601

Why are you jumping from non-disruptive prayers to having to give a separate prayer room to everyone who asks for it?

Did you even read the article?

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shakey    1,127

Whats funny is, the Muslim religion dictates that these prayers can be missed, and that they can be made up, 2 at a time. So they do not need to pray in school, they can easily to it before and after school. Instead, they choose to impose their beliefs on others, and demand that they get special treatment, for something that isn't even necessary. Talk about a bunch of hypocrisy. They won't dare budge for society, but they expect society to budge for them.

That entire post was "yea, well.... you just don't understand, stupid!"

Then some other point that I'm not even following, because it's either yet another thing I never said, or just gibberish.

No, your blind ignorance is the fault you didn't understand my post.

Did you even read the article?

Of course he didn't.

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Seizure1990    252

No, your blind ignorance is the fault you didn't understand my post.

LOL!

My debate skills pale in comparison to yours. I can see there is no point in even continuing. ;)

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shakey    1,127

Before it's over no one will be allowed to believe in anything in the name of peace....

Hmmm...

Conquering with peace, where have I heard that before?

Believe in what you want, just don't go putting it in others faces. Keep it to your house and what ever building was specifically designed for those of your belief to do as such. Unless you want the streets just filled with everyone doing their own thing, in the name of their belief.

LOL!

My debate skills pale in comparison to yours. I can see there is no point in even continuing. ;)

ya, no point in this when you haven't even read the article. most people in debate know to not show up unprepared or uneducated about the matter.

I have good talks/debates with many on these forums. I can say what is needed just fine. But when there are people, like yourself, who come in and talk about things they haven't even read up on and don't understand the subject... it sort of downgrades the whole discussion, and sends it out of topic. Read the topic, and stop posting about things you haven't even educated yourself on.

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jakem1    1,610

Schools are for education, not superstition. This seems like the right policy to me.

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Tom    1,190

How many religions are there, worldwide?

  1. Christianity: 2.1 billion
  2. Islam: 1.5 billion
  3. Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
  4. Hinduism: 900 million
  5. Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
  6. Buddhism: 376 million
  7. primal-indigenous: 300 million
  8. African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
  9. Sikhism: 23 million
  10. Juche: 19 million
  11. Spiritism: 15 million
  12. Judaism: 14 million
  13. Baha'i: 7 million
  14. Jainism: 4.2 million
  15. Shinto: 4 million
  16. Cao Dai: 4 million
  17. Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
  18. Tenrikyo: 2 million
  19. Neo-Paganism: 1 million
  20. Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
  21. Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
  22. Scientology: 500 thousand

There are the 22 most popular. So, we should just start accommodating every single one of them, with their own places, in every public building? Really? Do you , or can you, comprehend the vast insanity that a person would go through trying to do as such? It is much easier if everyone would just keep their beliefs to themselves, their home, and their designated place of worship.

There is no need to go forcing the public to accommodate for each different religions needs.

( Though I don't see how agnostic or Atheist could be considered as a "religion". It's like saying all those who don't believe in Santa are a religion...)

Wow..

3. Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion

I'm massively surprised by that.

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shakey    1,127

Wow..

3. Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion

I'm massively surprised by that.

Same here... I never knew that there was really this many of "us". I really though hate to lump non believers of a faith into a group though, as it isn't really a group. But I guess Bill Maher was correct with saying that Agnostic and atheist are the biggest minority group that has the biggest hurdle of acceptance in society.

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Seizure1990    252

Believe in what you want, just don't go putting it in others faces. Keep it to your house and what ever building was specifically designed for those of your belief to do as such. Unless you want the streets just filled with everyone doing their own thing, in the name of their belief.

ya, no point in this when you haven't even read the article. most people in debate know to not show up unprepared or uneducated about the matter.

I have good talks/debates with many on these forums. I can say what is needed just fine. But when there are people, like yourself, who come in and talk about things they haven't even read up on and don't understand the subject... it sort of downgrades the whole discussion, and sends it out of topic. Read the topic, and stop posting about things you haven't even educated yourself on.

And for the record, I did read the article... it says they were praying in the halls. The part about a private room was brought up AFTER they were told they couldn't, as an alternative.

The article is also very skimp on details as to why this judge decided this case in particular was decided in this fashion, especially since he said himself it's a case by case basis. Furthermore, everyone in this topic has been arguing against prayers in school, PERIOD, which is what I was countering. Or am I not allowed to respond?

Sorry, just wanted to point out how absurd and obnoxious you were being.

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+Gary7    7,591

Other posts in here have said that it was about praying in a schoolyard, so I dunno.

And for the record, I believe religion should be a matter that you are free to express as you wish, so long as you don't harm others.

What was requested was a separate room. So is a school to provide a separate room for each Religion. Prayer was taken out of school in the US a long time ago. This is all prayer. From the source:

The court found that the conflict that might be expected at the school if religious acts were allowed would be beyond the level that school staff could deal with. Setting aside a room specifically for prayer would be beyond the organisational capacity of the school, it said.

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Seizure1990    252

As I just mentioned, that separate prayer room was requested upon being told they couldn't pray in the halls.

Someone else in this topic clarified, and explained further that the school was having this issue because of religious tensions and violence.

Contrary to Shakey's insane rantings, I have a very good grasp of what is going on.

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shakey    1,127

As I just mentioned, that separate prayer room was requested upon being told they couldn't pray in the halls.

Someone else in this topic clarified, and explained further that the school was having this issue because of religious tensions and violence.

Contrary to Shakey's insane rantings, I have a very good grasp of what is going on.

Not insane. Logical. You say to not oppress students prayers. I say then, shouldn't we accommodate all the religions for their prayers? You said that isn't a issue, because it is only these kids asking for it. You fail to recognize what a society is and what it consist of. You fail to understand that you can not give 1 religion, race, or group privileges over another. They must all have equal access. If you give 1 room to 1 religion, you must give 1 room to all religions. That is how you don't oppress.

Again, they can miss their prayers during school, and they can make them up before and after school. They are just trying to impose their religions practices upon the school and others to conform to, instead of conforming to the society they are in.

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+Gary7    7,591

As I just mentioned, that separate prayer room was requested upon being told they couldn't pray in the halls.

Someone else in this topic clarified, and explained further that the school was having this issue because of religious tensions and violence.

Contrary to Shakey's insane rantings, I have a very good grasp of what is going on.

Schools are for learning, Churches are for praying.

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Seizure1990    252

Not insane. Logical. You say to not oppress students prayers. I say then, shouldn't we accommodate all the religions for their prayers? You said that isn't a issue, because it is only these kids asking for it. You fail to recognize what a society is and what it consist of. You fail to understand that you can not give 1 religion, race, or group privileges over another. They must all have equal access. If you give 1 room to 1 religion, you must give 1 room to all religions. That is how you don't oppress.

For the last time, I never said a school should be required to provide prayer rooms. Who's having reading issues now? Gosh...

Schools are for learning, Churches are for praying.

Very true! While we're at it, let's ban drinking, eating, chatting in the halls, hugging, handshakes, physical contact of any kind, listening to music (even between classes), and anything else you can think of.

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Miuku.    364
Same here... I never knew that there was really this many of "us".

That's not even counting the people that are registered as religious people but don't really believe in anything or are only part of the religion due to their parents.

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shakey    1,127

For the last time, I never said a school should be required to provide prayer rooms. Who's having reading issues now? Gosh...

And others shouldn't have to walk around kids laying in the middle of the hallway. Why inconvenience others? Especially when it can be done before and after school? Why bother bothering others, when it isn't even a necessity? Because they would rather others conform to their beliefs than they conform to the society they are in.

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