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Yogurtmaster    210

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You act like God never gave them a chance though. God gave them many, many, many, many chances.

Just like you guys. God in your entire life has given you chances, but you want to go down like the people outside the ark, why?

If you were on the top of a house and it was a great flood and only the roof tops were free from the water and I sent you 10 different

boats and you turned them all down, who's fault is it that you died?

How can anyone be responsible for you, if you are yourselves not responsible for yourselves?

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nominak    982

You act like God never gave them a chance though. God gave them many, many, many, many chances.

Just like you guys. God in your entire life has given you chances, but you want to go down like the people outside the ark, why?

If you were on the top of a house and it was a great flood and only the roof tops were free from the water and I sent you 10 different

boats and you turned them all down, who's fault is it that you died?

How can anyone be responsible for you, if you are yourselves not responsible for yourselves?

Or you know.. he didn't have to flood the entire planet.

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vincent    153

By Rational means do you mean the scientific method? Then yes, I accept that God will never show himself in the natural so that you can verify evidence using the scientific method.

However, that in itself not rational. Not everything can be measured using the scientific method. That is like going to the doctor when all you need is a mechanic for your car.

lol! Self-evident existence wouldn't need verification it would be all to see, such as the shoes on your feet, but god hasn't done so, yet he supposedly exists..

Because what Atheists say as rational is not rational to me. When I look at the Universe and it's beginning. I cannot see that happening by accident or by itself without anything

and then turning into something. That is not rational to me, that itself is fairy tale thinking.

Here, educate yourself dude..

http://www.astro.ucl...mology_faq.html

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mudslag    4,397

You act like God never gave them a chance though. God gave them many, many, many, many chances.

Just like you guys. God in your entire life has given you chances, but you want to go down like the people outside the ark, why?

If you were on the top of a house and it was a great flood and only the roof tops were free from the water and I sent you 10 different

boats and you turned them all down, who's fault is it that you died?

How can anyone be responsible for you, if you are yourselves not responsible for yourselves?

That's awesome how you give god a free pass for genocide. God is a murderer but it's cool cause he gave them a chance. :rolleyes: :rofl:

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Yogurtmaster    210

Argument from ignorance

Well, it's not like you added anything that had any value. Instead of trying to be offensive and not providing anything, why don't you add something to the conversation?

What I mean by adding something to the conversation I don't mean "you are an idiot that believes in a fairy tale", this is not helpful dialog.

Or you know.. he didn't have to flood the entire planet.

Well, I wasn't alive back then so I don't know the entire story. Maybe he felt he needed to because the world was getting so bad.

By the way, the end times is supposed to be like the days of Noah.

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vincent    153

Well, I wasn't alive back then so I don't know the entire story. Maybe he felt he needed to because the world was getting so bad.

By the way, the end times is supposed to be like the days of Noah.

Or to put it simply, god's a hypocrite...

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Luc2k    734

That's awesome how you give god a free pass for genocide. God is a murderer but it's cool cause he gave them a chance. :rolleyes: :rofl:

Yeah, there were no children or disabled people unable to make a choice back then, and the ones on the other side of the world deserved it because they were too damn lazy to invent teleporters.

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TPreston    5,384

Well, it's not like you added anything that had any value.

Shifting the burden of proof.

Instead of trying to be offensive and not providing anything, why don't you add something to the conversation?

What I mean by adding something to the conversation I don't mean "you are an idiot that believes in a fairy tale", this is not helpful dialog.

Im terribly sorry that me pointing out that your argument is fallacious offends you, Please accept my deepest and humblest apology

Well, I wasn't alive back then so I don't know the entire story. Maybe he felt he needed to because the world was getting so bad.

By the way, the end times is supposed to be like the days of Noah.

Or Maybe is all made up

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Yogurtmaster    210

That's awesome how you give god a free pass for genocide. God is a murderer but it's cool cause he gave them a chance. :rolleyes: :rofl:

If I told you something and you didn't listen and you died, would that be God's fault or yours? I put the blame on you, because you didn't listen.

God gave plenty of warning, the fact that people didn't listen isn't his fault.

If I tell you not to walk in the street without looking both ways and you are arrogant and you don't look you get hit, then that is your own fault.

Same here, it's not genocide when people have been warned over, and over, and over again. I can't make you choose God, that is your own choice

you get what you get if you don't listen.

It's called a Fact of Life. God gives people chances, if the people rebel that is their own fault. They didn't have to die folks, they could have lived on, but they choose to die.

That was the option that they choose.

Every day all of us have choices. I could kill you in which I would have to pay for that or I can give you the gospel in hopes that you become saved. In the end it's up to you how you live your lives.

The funny thing is that you judge God for doing the right thing here and I think that is just messed up.

Or to put it simply, god's a hypocrite...

How is God a hypocrite? How are you not a hypocrite?

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TPreston    5,384

If I told you something and you didn't listen and you died, would that be God's fault or yours? I put the blame on you, because you didn't listen.

God gave plenty of warning, the fact that people didn't listen isn't his fault.

If I tell you not to walk in the street without looking both ways and you are arrogant and you don't look you get hit, then that is your own fault.

The difference is that the above is an accident and this is deliberate genocide.

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Yogurtmaster    210

The difference is that the above is an accident and this is deliberate genocide.

So giving people a choice to live is called genocide? LOL Do you honestly read what you post?

If they were living in Pangaea like continent and God gave them a choice and they turned it down many, many, many times. How can you say that was genocide?

That makes no sense logically. If I offered you to live or to die and you choose death, how is that genocide?

gen?o?cide

? ?[jen-uh-sahyd]

noun

the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial,political, or cultural group.

So, using this definition. If the people are given a choice to live and they do not accept it.

That is not genocide, that is suicide. Wrong term there genius.

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TPreston    5,384

So, using this definition. If the people are given a choice to live (and worship me) and they do not accept it (so i kill them all).

That is genocide, not suicide (because god killed them).

Hope this helps, Remember if you put a gun to someones head and say "worship me or ill kill you" and they refuse.... That aint gunna work in court :rofl:

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Yogurtmaster    210

lol! Self-evident existence wouldn't need verification it would be all to see, such as the shoes on your feet, but god hasn't done so, yet he supposedly exists..

Here, educate yourself dude..

http://www.astro.ucl...mology_faq.html

Thanks for the link, but nothing I can see changes what I said. Can you point me to exactly what your point is (not trying to be mean here, but I see nothing that changes what I said above).

The universe is expanding (okay, well yes I know that, it has to expand because it was created, it had a starting point, okay....)

What came before the Big Bang?

The standard Big Bang model is singular at the time of the Big Bang, t = 0. This means that one cannot even define time, since spacetime is singular. In some models like the chaotic or perpetual inflation favored by Linde, the Big Bang is just one of many inflating bubbles in a spacetime foam. But there is no possibility of getting information from outside our own one bubble. Thus I conclude that: "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent."

This still does not answer the question. That Bubble still had to be created. You can't have this stuff create itself randomly. That is a fairy tale.

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TPreston    5,384
This still does not answer the question. That singularity still had to be caused by something

And so do magical universe creating deity's

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Yogurtmaster    210

And so do magical universe creating deity's

If a being that lives outside space and time has the power to create a Universe. I don't call that magic, I call that awesome!

Magic is when you can do small illusions. Creating a universe is no small illusion.

So, how do you think the Universe got here? I never hear Atheists answer this question. Give me something that I can work with.

I have never heard any answer that an Atheist ever gave that made me think or even challenged my beliefs. It's all this cop out that people who believe in God have to provide the burden of proof.

Fine, but at least give me something that I can research or even a theory that could make sense.

Educate me. Enlighten me. Challenge me.

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nominak    982

at least give me something that I can research or even a theory that could make sense.

Educate me. Enlighten me. Challenge me.

You don't want to be educated/enlightened or challenged.

But here you go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

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TPreston    5,384

If a being that lives outside space and time has the power to create a Universe. I don't call that magic, I call that awesome!

Magic is when you can do small illusions. Creating a universe is no small illusion.

Awesome! Radical! Howd he get there ? Prove such a place even exist ?

So, how do you think the Universe got here? I never hear Atheists answer this question. Give me something that I can work with.

Its not atheists you need to be asking that its cosmologists

I have never heard any answer that an Atheist ever gave that made me think or even challenged my beliefs.

Thats not at all surprising

It's all this cop out that people who believe in God have to provide the burden of proof.

Its not a cop out, You need to learn what an appeal to ignorance is.

Fine, but at least give me something that I can research or even a theory that could make sense.

Educate me. Enlighten me. Challenge me.

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Yogurtmaster    210

You don't want to be educated/enlightened or challenged.

But here you go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

This tells me about the Big Bang, but it does not tell me how you can create a universe by itself from nothing to something randomly.

Even if we say the Big Bang is FACT, we also have to find out what started it and what created everything.

Can you point me to that part, because there is a lot of information about the Big Bang, but I need to see the point that I am making and I don't see that yet.

I am not interested in the big bang itself, I am interested how this just happened. What was the root cause and how was that root cause started. Who put

the plan in place to start the process.

If you see an arrow head in a creek, it's all chipped out and everything and it looks like an arrowhead from some human. Do you assume that nature made that arrowhead? Or do you see that humans chipped out the rock to make a rock as an arrowhead?

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mudslag    4,397

This tells me about the Big Bang, but it does not tell me how you can create a universe by itself from nothing to something randomly.

Even if we say the Big Bang is FACT, we also have to find out what started it and what created everything.

Can you point me to that part, because there is a lot of information about the Big Bang, but I need to see the point that I am making and I don't see that yet.

I am not interested in the big bang itself, I am interested how this just happened. What was the root cause and how was that root cause started. Who put the plan in place to start the process.

Personally I like the (some what unpopular) theory that within every black hole is a universe. Thus our own universe is itself in a black hole or was at one point and the creation of it is from a black hole being created by a dying star. In so there would be an infinite amount of universes out there. Granted it's not a popular theory but if ever proven true, then the creator of the universe was a dying star.

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Yogurtmaster    210

Personally I like the (some what unpopular) theory that within every black hole is a universe. Thus our own universe is itself in a black hole or was at one point and the creation of it is from a black hole being created by a dying star. In so there would be an infinite amount of universes out there. Granted it's not a popular theory but if ever proven true, then the creator of the universe was a dying star.

Thank you. At least I can deal with that and discuss it.

okay, so then how did these planets and stars get created. The black hole had to be intelligent right? For example why is the sun away from earth in that life can be sustained on Earth itself?

At some point there has to be a total beginning and at some point there has to be some intelligence to create the stars and planets. There has to be order and not complete chaos. There are laws and rules of physics and of space and time, there has to be a blueprint of the handiwork.

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vincent    153

That is a fairy tale.

And a talking snake and magical sky dad isn't?

If a being that lives outside space and time has the power to create a Universe. I don't call that magic, I call that awesome!

Magic is when you can do small illusions. Creating a universe is no small illusion.

Prove it

So, how do you think the Universe got here? I never hear Atheists answer this question. Give me something that I can work with.

I have never heard any answer that an Atheist ever gave that made me think or even challenged my beliefs. It's all this cop out that people who believe in God have to provide the burden of proof.

Fine, but at least give me something that I can research or even a theory that could make sense.

Educate me. Enlighten me. Challenge me.

you really dont want to go down this road with us, you've already proven your remedial understanding and comprehension skills are sub par at best..

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Rippleman    2,681

So giving people a choice to live is called genocide?

worship me or die? isn't that the call sign for all religions since the beginning of time? good choices.... multiple choice really... If your god was real, i would choose no simply because that's not a god i would want to agree with... kill children, the elderly, etc because they say no.... ironically it sounds like a devil kind of story....

hey Yogurtmaster... it seems you are TRULY dedicated since you never ever seem to back down. You seem strong in faith. What would you do if your God asked you to prove your faith by killing your child, or even someone else's child... would you do it?

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vincent    153

Personally I like the (some what unpopular) theory that within every black hole is a universe. Thus our own universe is itself in a black hole or was at one point and the creation of it is from a black hole being created by a dying star. In so there would be an infinite amount of universes out there. Granted it's not a popular theory but if ever proven true, then the creator of the universe was a dying star.

The problems with black holes and time before 10^-43 is that the calculations end up with infinity, in science this is a disaster.

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vincent    153

This tells me about the Big Bang, but it does not tell me how you can create a universe by itself from nothing to something randomly.

The big Bang theory doesn't state this, all it shows (with http://www.thefreedictionary.com/observational]observational][/url] data) that at some point the universe rapidly expanded from a smaller, more condensed state.

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mudslag    4,397

Thank you. At least I can deal with that and discuss it.

okay, so then how did these planets and stars get created. The black hole had to be intelligent right? For example why is the sun away from earth in that life can be sustained on Earth itself?

At some point there has to be a total beginning and at some point there has to be some intelligence to create the stars and planets. There has to be order and not complete chaos. There are laws and rules of physics and of space and time, there has to be a blueprint of the handiwork.

Why would intelligence be needed? As for how stars and planets form, Ill post 2 links below with very basic explanations. Earth sits within what's called the goldilocks zone. It's not to close to the sun that the planet is to hot and not to far that the planet is to cold. In the last decade we have become capable of discovering planets outside our own solar system and we are finding planets that also sit withing that goldilocks zone. Whether or not they have life is still out of our reach to answer but we know some of the planets are within the area similar to Earth to be potentials.

http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/COMPLETE/learn/star_and_planet_formation.html

http://www.ism.ucalgary.ca/Star_Formation/Star_Formation.html

One of the interesting aspects about the black hole theory that Iv heard, there are those that don't agree with certain aspects but give the theory a plausible pass. Is that within a black hole, time and space are no longer a part of the universe. Meaning the possibility exists, at least in theory, that our own universe was created from a black hole, from our own universe. That basically the universe gave birth to itself in a sense. Another aspect of that theory is that it keeps giving birth to itself, over and over and over. There is no technical beginning nor end. As for order, there are those that also believe that chaos creates order. You throw a handful of sticks up in the air enough times, odds alone say you'll find they can land in an order. They won't necessarily land in an order that you'd like but you could find an order within it.

As for the laws and rules of physics and space/time. I have my own view of what that "could be". "IF", and I stress a very big IF, I believed in the possibility of a god, those laws and rules would be it and nothing more. God wouldn't be some humanoid type figure, it wouldn't be something that had a watchful eye over us, it wouldn't be something that we could talk to or pray to and think it would respond back. It wouldn't be something that even thinks. It would be just the order of things, the rules that laid out how the universe works. "Nature" would be the closest name that would be easily understandable for most. But again that's the closest thing I could open to as a god. Even then that still wouldn't fit majority of the world's definition of what a god is.

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