European carriers: Lumia phones are 'not good enough' to compete


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Vice

You're being inconsistent. Frankly speaking, your argument that the reason a product isn't leading the market is because it sucks is complete nonsense, and when the flaw in your reasoning pointed out to you all you do is try to find excuses to hand-wave away your logical inconsistencies. Just because a product isn't leading the market is hardly evidence that it sucks, the web browser market proves that to anyone who isn't busy being blinded by their pro-Android fanboyism.

Wrong. The overwhelming majority of users simply can't tell which phone is the "best" even if their lives depended on it, what they do is buy whatever's cheap and what the salesperson is telling them to, like how my dad did.

You've not refuted any of my points because you are unable to do so. If Windows Phone is so good why does it continually lose market share each quarter? Why are european OEM's saying they can't sell it?

People just are not interested in this OS from Microsoft. Even the European carriers are saying the Lumia range would sell better with Android, can't you see the facts?

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xeleraph

You've not refuted any of my points because you are unable to do so. If Windows Phone is so good why does it continually lose market share each quarter? Why are european OEM's saying they can't sell it?

People just are not interested in this OS from Microsoft.

I've not refuted your points because you haven't made any. All you did was resort to the flawed logic that if a product isn't leading the market, then it means it sucks, and I've already debunked that to outer orbit. Why don't you actually give us some good reasons why Windows Phone sucks instead of using flawed arguments, then I might have something to refute?

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UndergroundWire

I've not refuted your points because you haven't made any. All you did was resort to the flawed logic that if a product isn't leading the market, then it means it sucks, and I've already debunked that to outer orbit. Why don't you actually give us some good reasons why Windows Phone sucks instead of using flawed arguments, then I might have something to refute?

How about this as a point: It sucks because it doesn't have the market share. If it had the market share, it would have the app developers in its market.

You see to say that Firefox or Chrome are behind in market share is not a valid argument. They are not missing any features because of the lack of developers.

Do you agree with that point?

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Vice

I've not refuted your points because you haven't made any. All you did was resort to the flawed logic that if a product isn't leading the market, then it means it sucks, and I've already debunked that to outer orbit. Why don't you actually give us some good reasons why Windows Phone sucks instead of using flawed arguments, then I might have something to refute?

The fact only a few OEM's are even willing to make Windows Phones and we've not seen many new models from other companies than Nokia. The fact that Samsung can sell a single Android phone in a higher volume than all the Windows Phones put together etc - This shows consumers are not interested in Windows Phone. And again you can't refute this because you'll never admit that Windows Phone is inferior to other products in the market.

Microsoft paid Nokia 1 Billion dollars just to pick it over Android. What more evidence do you need?

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Melfster
Spec wise they are "behind" because of WP's stringent requirements and not because they couldn't put a multi-core processors in there.

I don't believe Nokia makes ARM chips like Samsung does they would always be behind with both screen tech and CPU.

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xeleraph

How about this as a point: It sucks because it doesn't have the market share. If it had the market share, it would have the app developers in its market.

You see to say that Firefox or Chrome are behind in market share is not a valid argument. They are not missing any features because of the lack of developers.

Do you agree with that point?

So Windows Phone doesn't have app developers in its market? I suppose those 80k apps in the Marketplace must have all been developed by Microsoft and Nokia, then. They seem to be doing a great job of it too, since between just the two of them they're writing enough apps to grow the Marketplace at a faster rate than all the third-party developers for Android managed to when Android was 1.5 years old.

I think you can definitely make a much better argument. Please try again.

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xeleraph

The fact only a few OEM's are even willing to make Windows Phones and we've not seen many new models from other companies than Nokia. The fact that Samsung can sell a single Android phone in a higher volume than all the Windows Phones put together etc - This shows consumers are not interested in Windows Phone. And again you can't refute this because you'll never admit that Windows Phone is inferior to other products in the market.

Microsoft paid Nokia 1 Billion dollars just to pick it over Android. What more evidence do you need?

Consumers not being interested in Windows Phone is completely different from consumers not even knowing anything about Windows phone, which is in turn completely different from Windows Phone sucking.

I can't refute arguments that you've never made. All you've proven is that Windows Phone doesn't have market share, which is different from the quality of the actual product itself. You're desperate to argue that Windows Phone sucks, but all you have are logical flaws and not a single solid argument that makes sense. Frankly speaking, you're being irrational; I don't believe Windows Phone is going to threaten Android in the near future either, so you can just relax and let go of your insecurities now.

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Vice

Consumers not being interested in Windows Phone is completely different from consumers not even knowing anything about Windows phone, which is in turn completely different from Windows Phone sucking.

I can't refute arguments that you've never made. All you've proven is that Windows Phone doesn't have market share, which is different from the quality of the actual product itself. You're desperate to argue that Windows Phone sucks, but all you have are logical flaws and not a single solid argument that makes sense. Frankly speaking, you're being irrational; I don't believe Windows Phone is going to threaten Android in the near future either, so you can just relax and let go of your insecurities now.

I don't even own an Android phone mate. I have an iPhone 4S. If anything Android threatens iPhone so as an iPhone user it would be illogical for me to stick up for Android. I'm just using such good logic you can't refute it so all you can say is I don't make sense. Like a robot unable to understand a command. Windows Phone can't be bad or your tiny head will explode.

Only thing Windows Phone is going to threaten is Nokias survival.

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xeleraph

I don't even own an Android phone mate. I have an iPhone 4S. If anything Android threatens iPhone so as an iPhone user it would be illogical for me to stick up for Android. I'm just using such good logic you can't refute it so all you can say is I don't make sense. Like a robot unable to understand a command. Windows Phone can't be bad or your tiny head will explode.

Insisting that your logic is good doesn't make it so. Accusing me of being a robot doesn't work either when you're apparently incapable of understand how basic logic works (maybe that's why you believe your argument is a good one). Your logic has been proven to be, well, crap. Example, the browser market. Was IE6 better than Firefox when the latter had only 5% market share?

Go ahead, make your excuses, and show everyone that your logic of "it doesn't have market share therefore it sucks" is, in fact, dead wrong. You've also shown us what "logic" means to you, apparently it means emotional arguments based on what you like instead of what is actually true, such as not defending Android simply because you use an iPhone. The quality of your so-called logic (or rather, the lack of it) is painfully obvious.

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Vice

Insisting that your logic is good doesn't make it so. Accusing me of being a robot doesn't work either when you're apparently incapable of understand how basic logic works (maybe that's why you believe your argument is a good one). Your logic has been proven to be, well, crap. Example, the browser market. Was IE6 better than Firefox when the latter had only 5% market share?

Go ahead, make your excuses, and show everyone that your logic of "it doesn't have market share therefore it sucks" is, in fact, dead wrong.

I don't need to say anything you cant convince me that Windows Phone is good. You've not even tried as you know it is impossible.

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BajiRav

Neither Dell nor Sony are the market leading OEM's - Their competitors make up more than the market than they do. And even if they do come with Chrome bundled they still also come with Internet Explorer. People see the word Internet and know what they are doing. Chrome doesn't give an idea of what it is by just the name and I'd doubt many consumers who buy those computers with it bundled even use it, I mean for starters they are buying a Dell or a Sony notebook so they are obviously not all there mentally.

And no I disagree with you about IE beating Chrome. The latest Chrome does beat the latest IE in market share. http://www.tomshardw...sers,15053.html

Quote the article: "The most popular browser version was Chrome 17 with 29.51 percent. IE9 was a distant second with just 15.6 percent."

Neither Dell nor Sony are the market leading OEM's - Their competitors make up more than the market than they do. And even if they do come with Chrome bundled they still also come with Internet Explorer. People see the word Internet and know what they are doing. Chrome doesn't give an idea of what it is by just the name and I'd doubt many consumers who buy those computers with it bundled even use it, I mean for starters they are buying a Dell or a Sony notebook so they are obviously not all there mentally.

And no I disagree with you about IE beating Chrome. The latest Chrome does beat the latest IE in market share. http://www.tomshardw...sers,15053.html

Quote the article: "The most popular browser version was Chrome 17 with 29.51 percent. IE9 was a distant second with just 15.6 percent."

Right. as I said, statcounter got it wrong, neowin had a story a couple of days ago. As far as I know Dell is still #2 PC maker worldwide and GOOG might be paying HP to make Chrome default? I haven't seen a new HP in recent times to know for sure.

Which brings us to the point (even with just Dell and Sony) is GOOG buying marketshare for Chrome? :p

I also don't understand comparing Chrome 17 on all Windows versions with IE9 which is just Windows 7. Why not compare just Windows 7 share then? ( I know it is Microsoft's "fault" but still)

If Windows Phone is so good why does it continually lose market share each quarter?

Source? Most such usage share stats combine WP with WinMo and hence doesn't count. Find me one which shows only WP and losing marketshare.

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BajiRav

The fact only a few OEM's are even willing to make Windows Phones and we've not seen many new models from other companies than Nokia.

Did you completely miss HTC Titan II? :huh: not to mention WP is kind of on an yearly cycle.

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xeleraph

I don't need to say anything you cant convince me that Windows Phone is good. You've not even tried as you know it is impossible.

It's impossible to use logic to convince someone who rejects logic. As you've already repeatedly demonstrated, your understanding of "logic" is a completely bizarre one, like how you think it's "illogical" to defend Android as an iPhone user since your so-called logic is based on your personal preferences instead of facts. A logical iPhone user would have no problems with defending Android if the facts call for it, but you obviously don't belong in that category, by your own admission. So, really, why should I try reasoning with someone who rejects logic?

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BajiRav

Even the European carriers are saying the Lumia range would sell better with Android, can't you see the facts?

People also said (still say) that OS X would sell better if Apple sold it to OEMs, can't you see the facts? OS X must suck then by your "logic".

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Vice

People also said (still say) that OS X would sell better if Apple sold it to OEMs, can't you see the facts? OS X must suck then by your "logic".

What you just said makes no sense at all.

OS X would sell way better if Apple sold it to OEM's - How would that make OS X ****? If anything it would indicate that Apples Macs are overpriced.

In the Windows case. The phone is good (Lumia handsets) it is the OS that people don't want. If they put Android on it, it would sell great.

It's impossible to use logic to convince someone who rejects logic. As you've already repeatedly demonstrated, your understanding of "logic" is a completely bizarre one, like how you think it's "illogical" to defend Android as an iPhone user since your so-called logic is based on your personal preferences instead of facts. A logical iPhone user would have no problems with defending Android if the facts call for it, but you obviously don't belong in that category, by your own admission. So, really, why should I try reasoning with someone who rejects logic?

5M9j6m.gif

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BajiRav

What you just said makes no sense at all.

OS X would sell way better if Apple sold it to OEM's - How would that make OS X ****? If anything it would indicate that Apples Macs are overpriced.

In the Windows case. The phone is good (Lumia handsets) it is the OS that people don't want. If they put Android on it, it would sell great.

It doesn't make sense right? because that's exactly what you said about WP and that doesn't make sense either. Lumias are not selling because people don't want WP? How is that even a logical conclusion?

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Vice

It doesn't make sense right? because that's exactly what you said about WP and that doesn't make sense either. Lumias are not selling because people don't want WP? How is that even a logical conclusion?

Because that is exactly what the Carriers are saying. You know the people who actually do this for a living and sell millions of handsets a year. People who know more than you on this subject I'm sure. I merely quoted them.

From Neowins home page on this story:

Another telco representative, from a network that has sold both the Lumia 800 and 710 in its stores, states, "No one comes into the store and asks for a Windows phone", adding that "if the Lumia with the same hardware came with Android in it and not Windows, it would be much easier to sell."
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BajiRav

Because that is exactly what the Carriers are saying. You know the people who actually do this for a living and sell millions of handsets a year. People who know more than you on this subject I'm sure. I merely quoted them.

/facepalm.

Carriers are saying and that's why it makes true? Some carriers also said Apple doesn't stand a chance with iPhone.

Dell sells millions of PCs each year and they said Apple should close shop.

btw When you say WP sucks or you will never recommend WP, then you are not just quoting it. It's your prejudice (for whatever reason) in action.

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UndergroundWire

So Windows Phone doesn't have app developers in its market? I suppose those 80k apps in the Marketplace must have all been developed by Microsoft and Nokia, then. They seem to be doing a great job of it too, since between just the two of them they're writing enough apps to grow the Marketplace at a faster rate than all the third-party developers for Android managed to when Android was 1.5 years old.

I think you can definitely make a much better argument. Please try again.

I think you know what I mean. You just don't want to admit you are wrong. Do you have Angry Birds Space? Do you have Draw Something? Do you have Words With Friends?

Surely you don't want to play the numbers game. How many apps does iOS and Android have?

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TheLegendOfMart

unibody, design and name, and of course there's NO 4,3 screen WP in Europe - Titan is more, Omnia 7 is less and 1st gen - and that's not Lumia 900 but Lumia specific but the Nokia Drive/Maps/Transport apps are a large appeal

HTC HD7 says hi.

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Vice

/facepalm.

Carriers are saying and that's why it makes true? Some carriers also said Apple doesn't stand a chance with iPhone.

Dell sells millions of PCs each year and they said Apple should close shop.

btw When you say WP sucks or you will never recommend WP, then you are not just quoting it. It's your prejudice (for whatever reason) in action.

I'd not recommend people drink bleach either. Obviously I'm prejudice against people killing themselves. I'd not recommend Windows Phone because it offers a poorer experience compared to both iOS and Android which are much better. Android allows more customisation and iOS has an App for everything. Windows has neither of those features which are important to consumers.

But it is hard to discuss this stuff on here because the Windows Phone people are just blind. They see big 2D blocks on an interface and they gush like school girls. Same with Metro defenders on Windows 8. I own an iPhone but I have no trouble saying Android offers a better experience than Windows Phone. iOS and Windows Phone are quite similar where one company dictates everything but atleast iOS has Applications and a Tablet operating system in the market already which integrates with the iPhone and its app ecosystem perfectly. Windows Phone? Not so much.

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xeleraph

I think you know what I mean. You just don't want to admit you are wrong. Do you have Angry Birds Space? Do you have Draw Something? Do you have Words With Friends?

Surely you don't want to play the numbers game. How many apps does iOS and Android have?

I'm not the one playing the numbers game; you're the one who said that Windows Phone doesn't have developers due to its Marketplace. Does this mean that the 80k apps in the WP Marketplace were all developed by Microsoft and Nokia, since WP doesn't have developers? Do you want to backpedal now and change your argument, or stick with your original one?

And you're bringing up games now? Not just games, but social games? From someone who said that only juveniles use social networks on their phones and you use yours for much more mature, important stuff? It's not a matter of me refusing to admit that I'm wrong. It's a matter of your hypocrisy and your flip-flopping between positions depending on which flavor of the day is better to bash Windows Phone with. Can you please clarify whether you think social networks and social games are important or not, as opposed to just flip-flopping between two opposing positions as convenient to suit your agenda?

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epk

Um, yesterday I walked into both Vodafone and Nova stores in Reykjavik and they both had the Lumia 800 right there for you to play with it (I loved it, by the way, it was the first time I actually had it in my hands). Sure, I didn't talk to any reps, but it was like the first thing you saw when you walked in with a sign saying "Try me!". Hard to miss.

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kaffra

after poor experience with the n series and their handling of the ovi sites, i hope to try a cheap windows phone someday, but not nokia

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BajiRav

I own an iPhone but I have no trouble saying Android offers a better experience than Windows Phone.

I have no problem with your post as such but that statement does not make any sense? If you think Android is better than iPhone then why are you using iPhone yourself? If iPhone is better than Android then why don't you recommend iPhone instead because it clearly has better ecosystem (and argubly better hardware?)

Personally I like and use Windows Phone but when I recommend someone for phones, I ask what they need and if I think their needs are not covered by Windows Phone then I recommend iPhone first and if cost is a factor I ask them to look at Android.

You clearly have prejudice against metro (based on your comment in that post) but you failed to understand that a person who asks you for recommendation might actually like WP's design and their needs might be satisfied by what it offers.

I am still trying to understand why you think+recommend Android is better than WP because it offers more customization? WTF with customization have to do with average phone user?

When you say WP offers poorer experience compared to iOS, do you mean only the app count? or those "2D blocks" that are regarded as a unique and beautiful design that you metro haters are just blind to?

When you say WP offers pooer experieience compared to Android, do you mean lack of customization but not app count?

Just trying to understand where are you coming from on this point and why WP sucks as you mentioned initially.

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