Microsoft betrays the trust of customers and partners in the name of progre

[simplezz]

Also devs totally jumped ship soon after MS started to show WP7. It was dead because development was dead on it. The same as webOS and it's starting to look like BB as well.

And the same as WP7/.5 will be dead because devs are going to abandon it for WP8. No forwards app compatibility means it's a dead end from a developer perspective.

[George P Global Moderator]

And the same as WP7/.5 will be dead because devs are going to abandon it for WP8. No forwards app compatibility means it's a dead end from a developer perspective.

You mean no backwords compatibility, it has forward compatibility from the get go, 7.x apps run on 8. I also think you and others are over exaggerating this major shift to native WP8 dev that will somehow leave WP7.x users out in the cold. I don't think that will be the case, the userbase is on 7.x, even when 8 hits it's user base will be smaller and until it's big enough that a developer can just target that part it could be months. We don't know how fast WP8 will sell in the market for one thing, no matter how good it looks at this point.

If you're a developer who's only going to target the new and tiny WP8 user base from the start then I think you're doing it wrong.

[xeleraph]

You mean no backwords compatibility, it has forward compatibility from the get go, 7.x apps run on 8. I also think you and others are over exaggerating this major shift to native WP8 dev that will somehow leave WP7.x users out in the cold. I don't think that will be the case, the userbase is on 7.x, even when 8 hits it's user base will be smaller and until it's big enough that a developer can just target that part it could be months. We don't know how fast WP8 will sell in the market for one thing, no matter how good it looks at this point.

If you're a developer who's only going to target the new and tiny WP8 user base from the start then I think you're doing it wrong.

You forget that there's a very big incentive for developers to ditch WP7: Windows 8 and Windows RT. Once Win8 is released, along with Win8/WinRT tablets, Win8 and WP8 will share a mostly common user base and developing platform, and the WP7 user base will be dwarfed in comparison in a few short months, if not IMMEDIATELY. Windows 8 CP totaled over a million downloads on its first day of availability, while Nokia "only" managed to ship (not sell) ~2 million Lumia devices in a whole quarter. And given how Microsoft is offering Windows 8 as a $15 upgrade, how long do you think it will take for the Win8/WP8 ecosystem to leave WP7 in the dust in terms of numbers?

Win8/WP8 will offer a shared codebase, superior APIs, DirectX/C++ code for developers, and a vastly bigger user base thanks to the number of Windows users. WP7, in comparison, has pretty much 2% of the mobile market and is a dead end that cannot leverage the new APIs offered by the NT kernel. What compelling reasons would there be for a developer to still target WP7?

[BoredBozirini]

I don't really know who would be upset with the Windows Phone 7. Everyone runs and buys a new phone every two years anyway. Some even sooner. So they bought a phone and a year later Windows 8 comes out leaving them with a Windows Phone 7 for a year. Who cares. People already do that with Android and iPhone.

In fact, I am ****ed. I bought a 2011 car a month before the new 2012 version is out. Man that ****es me off. Can I please get a free upgrade. I like the new body style. I like the new wheels. I like the new engine. Upgrade me please. Or I will go and buy the other car brand. Wait! They release new cars every year too. Damn it!

That has to be the worst analogy anyone has ever come up with.

[rfirth]

You forget that there's a very big incentive for developers to ditch WP7: Windows 8 and Windows RT. Once Win8 is released, along with Win8/WinRT tablets, Win8 and WP8 will share a mostly common user base and developing platform, and the WP7 user base will be dwarfed in comparison in a few short months, if not IMMEDIATELY. Windows 8 CP totaled over a million downloads on its first day of availability, while Nokia "only" managed to ship (not sell) ~2 million Lumia devices in a whole quarter. And given how Microsoft is offering Windows 8 as a $15 upgrade, how long do you think it will take for the Win8/WP8 ecosystem to leave WP7 in the dust in terms of numbers?

Win8/WP8 will offer a shared codebase, superior APIs, DirectX/C++ code for developers, and a vastly bigger user base thanks to the number of Windows users. WP7, in comparison, has pretty much 2% of the mobile market and is a dead end that cannot leverage the new APIs offered by the NT kernel. What compelling reasons would there be for a developer to still target WP7?

I'd obviously develop for Windows 8 - it's going to be huge. However, there is little incentive to develop for WP8 over WP7. Guess what - nobody has a WP8 device! WP8 will have a very small market share for a while, compared to WP7.8. If you develop for WP7.8, you also get the added bonus of WP8 compatibility. If you target WP8, you lose WP7.8 compatibility. There doesn't seem to be any reason to target WP8 unless you specifically need a WP8 feature - except code reuse. Code reuse will be better between Win8 and WP8, but you can also reuse code with WP7.8, unless you're using native code. That's not necessary.

And if you're worried about WP7 apps not performing as well on WP8, Microsoft is compiling WP7 apps into native code for WP8 devices. That should help a lot.

I have several apps on the Windows Phone Marketplace... I don't have any plans to dump WP7 users any time soon. I will add WP8 specific features and recompile for WP8 if I see something awesome in the next developer conference that would make my app better for WP8 users. At the moment, I don't see anything new that I need. MS TellMe integration would probably be awesome, though.

I'm busing porting WP7 Silverlight code to WinRT. It's very easy. Even my old XAML code works perfectly fine with WinRT. However, you have to change it up a bit because there is no way an app UI for a phone will look good on a tablet. It's difficult changing my app from WP7 portrait to WinRT big landscape screen. What looks good on a 800x480 4.3" screen does not look good on a 1366x768 10 inch screen.

[xeleraph]

I'd obviously develop for Windows 8 - it's going to be huge. However, there is little incentive to develop for WP8 over WP7. Guess what - nobody has a WP8 device! WP8 will have a very small market share for a while, compared to WP7.8. If you develop for WP7.8, you also get the added bonus of WP8 compatibility. If you target WP8, you lose WP7.8 compatibility. There doesn't seem to be any reason to target WP8 unless you specifically need a WP8 feature - except code reuse. Code reuse will be better between Win8 and WP8, but you can also reuse code with WP7.8, unless you're using native code. That's not necessary.

And if you're worried about WP7 apps not performing as well on WP8, Microsoft is compiling WP7 apps into native code for WP8 devices. That should help a lot.

I have several apps on the Windows Phone Marketplace... I don't have any plans to dump WP7 users any time soon.

I don't think you understood my point. You're still thinking of Win8 and WP8 as separate ecosystems. If the WP Summit is anything to go by, they're not. Nobody may initially have a WP8 device, but it doesn't matter because the WP8 ecosystem does not consist of WP8 alone; there will be hundreds of millions of Win8 and WinRT users to fill out the ecosystem, and I think it's safe to say that WP8 adoption will ramp up much faster than WP7 did.

You say there's no reason to target WP8 other than code reuse - except that code reuse is, you know, kind of a big deal. Why would you want to maintain two separate codebases, one for a modern ecosystem with hundreds of millions of users across all form factors, and another one for a dead end platform with a minimal user base that isn't going anywhere? If I were a smaller or indie developer, I certainly wouldn't when I can monetize my app better by targeting the Win8/WinRT/WP8 user base, which will significantly dwarf WP7's. You don't sink time and effort into a dead platform.

[George P Global Moderator]

You forget that there's a very big incentive for developers to ditch WP7: Windows 8 and Windows RT. Once Win8 is released, along with Win8/WinRT tablets, Win8 and WP8 will share a mostly common user base and developing platform, and the WP7 user base will be dwarfed in comparison in a few short months, if not IMMEDIATELY. Windows 8 CP totaled over a million downloads on its first day of availability, while Nokia "only" managed to ship (not sell) ~2 million Lumia devices in a whole quarter. And given how Microsoft is offering Windows 8 as a $15 upgrade, how long do you think it will take for the Win8/WP8 ecosystem to leave WP7 in the dust in terms of numbers?

Win8/WP8 will offer a shared codebase, superior APIs, DirectX/C++ code for developers, and a vastly bigger user base thanks to the number of Windows users. WP7, in comparison, has pretty much 2% of the mobile market and is a dead end that cannot leverage the new APIs offered by the NT kernel. What compelling reasons would there be for a developer to still target WP7?

I'd rather not lump Windows 8 and WP8 users together. It's not a given that every Windows 8 users will rush out to buy a Windows Phone 8 device. It's also not a given that any WP8 owner will upgrade their PC to Windows 8. The advantage is for the developers because it makes porting from the phone to the pc and vice versa easier which should help grow both platforms but you said it yourself, at best we're talking 4 months here and that's if both products sell like crazy. 4-5 months for WP8 devices to hit the market, and another 4 or so before the user base is big enough that devs can drop 7.x users, and that's a best case which depends on phone sales. It could be slower for all we know, as good as WP8 looks to me without new phones to see it's hard to tell.

[xeleraph]

I'd rather not lump Windows 8 and WP8 users together. It's not a given that every Windows 8 users will rush out to buy a Windows Phone 8 device. It's also not a given that any WP8 owner will upgrade their PC to Windows 8. The advantage is for the developers because it makes porting from the phone to the pc and vice versa easier which should help grow both platforms but you said it yourself, at best we're talking 4 months here and that's if both products sell like crazy. 4-5 months for WP8 devices to hit the market, and another 4 or so before the user base is big enough that devs can drop 7.x users, and that's a best case which depends on phone sales. It could be slower for all we know, as good as WP8 looks to me without new phones to see it's hard to tell.

Another one who doesn't understand my point. I'm not saying that Win8 users will also be WP8 users or vice versa. I'm saying that they're the same ecosystem, and they have a much wider audience than WP7. More than 90 million PCs are shipped each quarter, most if not all of which will soon come pre-loaded with Windows 8. How long do you think it will take for the Win8/WP8 ecosystem to dwarf WP7's again?

[George P Global Moderator]

Another one who doesn't understand my point. I'm not saying that Win8 users will also be WP8 users or vice versa. I'm saying that they're the same ecosystem, and they have a much wider audience than WP7. More than 90 million PCs are shipped each quarter, most if not all of which will soon come pre-loaded with Windows 8. How long do you think it will take for the Win8/WP8 ecosystem to dwarf WP7's again?

And again, why are you lumping them together? What good is it if WP8 sales, actual phone sales don't match Windows 8 PC sales? What good is it if one part of the ecosystem (phones) don't grow as well? Besides it's not a compile once and run on PC and Phone type deal, developers still need to tweak their Windows 8 app for the phones smaller screen etc. All I'm saying is that just because the expected Windows 8 PC growth is more or less a given that doesn't automatically translate over to the phone either. A developer will have to wait and see how WP8 devices sell first before he/she decides to either port their Win8 app over or make a new WP8 only native code app and forget WP7.x users.

[xeleraph]

And again, why are you lumping them together? What good is it if WP8 sales, actual phone sales don't match Windows 8 PC sales? What good is it if one part of the ecosystem (phones) don't grow as well? Besides it's not a compile once and run on PC and Phone type deal, developers still need to tweak their Windows 8 app for the phones smaller screen etc. All I'm saying is that just because the expected Windows 8 PC growth is more or less a given that doesn't automatically translate over to the phone either. A developer will have to wait and see how WP8 devices sell first before he/she decides to either port their Win8 app over or make a new WP8 only native code app and forget WP7.x users.

I'm lumping them together because, for the third time, they're the same ecosystem. Developers who code for WP8 won't just be monetizing off WP8, they'll be monetizing off Win8/WinRT as well. They'll be making money off the huge audience of Windows users, and then WP8 users as well when WP7 dies off. The fact that nobody has WP8 devices now does not matter because WP8 is not the only component of the Win8 ecosystem. There will be tons of users on Windows and later WP8, compared to the miniscule market share that WP7 has; 2% after 18 months and showing no signs of life, and is only going to deteriorate from now on.

I don't know how I can possibly make it simpler for you, or perhaps you're just adamant on clinging to your delusion that developers will want to code for a dying platform that has next to no users AND has nowhere to go but down, instead of the one that has a vast and established user base, offers superior APIs and SDKs, and will be the platform that's supported from now on.

[paulheu]

There is little to no incentive to support wp7.8 as many point out the user base is very small.

How is the userbase for WP8 going to be even close to what the WP7.x base is between now and say a year? When the WP8 devices become available in the fall it will be at least 6-8 months for the userbase to be anywhere near the level that could sustain a developers needs.

At the same time they can create WP7.x apps which will be recompiled to the WP8 platform for them for free by MS, no extra work required, it's fully automatic. So where am I missing something here?

[paulheu]

WP7, in comparison, has pretty much 2% of the mobile market and is a dead end that cannot leverage the new APIs offered by the NT kernel. What compelling reasons would there be for a developer to still target WP7?

I'll take 5% of that 2% share of the mobile phone market who pay $0.99 for my app over any of your arguments.. Now do you get the point?

[simplezz]

You mean no backwords compatibility, it has forward compatibility from the get go, 7.x apps run on 8.

I meant that WP8 apps won't run on 7.x devices. WP8 has backwards compatibility because 7.x apps will run on WP8 devices.

I also think you and others are over exaggerating this major shift to native WP8 dev that will somehow leave WP7.x users out in the cold.

You said it yourself in the examples you used. What third party developers are going to target a platform that has a dwindling userbase? They'll all target WP8 for new updates and versions of their apps, and just ignore 7.x

[xeleraph]

I'll take 5% of that 2% share of the mobile phone market who pay $0.99 for my app over any of your arguments.. Now do you get the point?

I get the point that for whatever reason, you don't care about marketing your app to an audience that's bigger by an order of magnitude. That's your loss and none of my concern. The problem for current WP users is that other developers aren't going to be as short-sighted as you are.

And if you're not interested in discussion, why post? So you can show off how belligerent you are?

[+Eternal Tempest MVC]

So when Nintendo announced the 3DS, they stabbed al DS users? What a FUD here :/

Also, let's talk about MS partners building Android devices, they are the one stabbing MS, not the opposite.

Finally, blaming MS because they are building a device using MS Research work is just incredibly stupid!

I think what is causing people to be a bit apprehensive about the situation is the very short time between the Lumia 900 becoming available for purchase and Windows 8 announcement / marketing machine gearing up.

Add Nokia ad campaign about you've been using a "beta" phone up till now... Noikia users should feel a bit upset.

[rhianntp]

none of this metro BS has been about progress...its about surface...that's it...shows over folks...so long MS ;-)

[jakem1]

The only thing that's clear is that the majority of the people who think MS have done WP users a disservice aren't actually WP users themselves. Check out any of the WP fansites and you'll find that the vast majority of users are quite happy with the decision that MS made.

[paulheu]

I get the point that for whatever reason, you don't care about marketing your app to an audience that's bigger by an order of magnitude. That's your loss and none of my concern. The problem for current WP users is that other developers aren't going to be as short-sighted as you are.

And if you're not interested in discussion, why post? So you can show off how belligerent you are?

So... you are saying that you believe that come December the userbase for WP8 will have surpassed that of WP7.8? how do you get at that conclusion. If a developer writes an app for WP it does need work to get it to run on W8. apps which are developed for WP7.x will be instantly usable on WP8 without any need for the dev to put extra effort in. So by developing for WP7.8 you address both user groups in one go. Plus there is millions of WP7.x users. If I can only sell my app to 5% of them I will make a nice bit of cash.

The thing I do not get is how it seems people come to he conclusion that by developing for WP8 you instantly also get access to the W8 userbase which you do not.

[Depicus]

What people fail to realise, which they would if they watched the keynote, is that Windows Phone 8 uses the Secure Boot features of the Windows 8 kernel, which, in turn, requires the security hardware in the Snapdragon S4 to run and that's without even mentioning Bitlocker. WP8 wouldn't even boot on WP7 devices because of this.

So as Windows 8 has the same Secure Boot feature does that mean it will not run on any machine I own without the security hardware ? No the same way as any good OS is built, it can bypass hardware that it does not have.

So yes WP8 could technically have come to the current Nokia range.

[xeleraph]

So... you are saying that you believe that come December the userbase for WP8 will have surpassed that of WP7.8? how do you get at that conclusion.

It's quite possible, but whether it does or not doesn't matter. The Win8 ecosystem will be larger than the WP7 ecosystem within weeks, if not days. This is my argument. Please understand it. If you do not understand it, then take a moment and read it instead of rushing to reply with completely irrelevant rebuttals that does nothing whatsoever to disprove my argument.

If a developer writes an app for WP it does need work to get it to run on W8. apps which are developed for WP7.x will be instantly usable on WP8 without any need for the dev to put extra effort in. So by developing for WP7.8 you address both user groups in one go. Plus there is millions of WP7.x users. If I can only sell my app to 5% of them I will make a nice bit of cash.

You are still stuck thinking that the WP8 marketshare is the sole factor contributing to the size of the Windows 8 ecosystem. It is not. Not by a long shot (at least initially). Until you understand this you will be stuck making completely irrelevant counter-arguments like you are doing now. By targeting WP7, you will be addressing the tiny and shrinking WP7 audience, and the not-yet-existent WP8 audience. By targeting WP8, you will be addressing the WP8 audience, and with minimal tweaks the vast Win8/WinRT audience as well that is currently more than an order of magnitude larger than the obsolete and dying WP7 ecosystem, and you won't be committing your codebase and months of work down the road to a dead-ended platform.

The thing I do not get is how it seems people come to he conclusion that by developing for WP8 you instantly also get access to the W8 userbase which you do not.

Nobody has said that. It's simply a straw man of your own invention while you ignore the actual arguments being made. The argument is that by developing for WP8 you also get access to the Win8 user base with minimal work, whereas if you develop for WP7 you not only miss out on that, you're committing time and money to a platform that has been announced to be a dead-end. The more work you sink into that obsolete platform, the more problems you'll have later when you need to make the inevitable switch, all while missing out on the Win8 userbase.

[Dot Matrix]

The only thing that's clear is that the majority of the people who think MS have done WP users a disservice aren't actually WP users themselves. Check out any of the WP fansites and you'll find that the vast majority of users are quite happy with the decision that MS made.

I'm a WP user, but I worry. I honestly think there should have been a better way to transition current WP users into WP8, without the hard cut off. Also, as a user who STILL hasn't received the disappearing keyboard bug fix, I'm worried I will be one of the handsets that won't receive the 7.8 update either, unless 7.8 will be OTA.

[remixedcat]

I'm a WP user, but I worry. I honestly think there should have been a better way to transition current WP users into WP8, without the hard cut off. Also, as a user who STILL hasn't received the disappearing keyboard bug fix, I'm worried I will be one of the handsets that won't receive the 7.8 update either, unless 7.8 will be OTA.

The carriers are the blame for a lot of problems with smartphones in general. More so, in the USA. They do anything they can to get you to take any of their crap up the ass. ****es me off. Why can't we all just buy whatever phones we want, then choose our carrier and get our OS updates when they are out and everyone have the latest OS that our phones can take.. but sadly this won't happen. each carrier has to be douchebags....

[ichi]

The carriers are the blame for a lot of problems with smartphones in general. More so, in the USA. They do anything they can to get you to take any of their crap up the ass. ****es me off. Why can't we all just buy whatever phones we want, then choose our carrier and get our OS updates when they are out and everyone have the latest OS that our phones can take.. but sadly this won't happen. each carrier has to be douchebags....

As long as most people keep getting into lengthy contracts to get a subsidized phone, that's the way it's going to be. OEMs stick with carriers because that's the way they get more phones sold.

[neo158]

So as Windows 8 has the same Secure Boot feature does that mean it will not run on any machine I own without the security hardware ? No the same way as any good OS is built, it can bypass hardware that it does not have.

So yes WP8 could technically have come to the current Nokia range.

Except Secure Boot ISN'T required to boot a Windows 8 machine. It's optional for a reason on Windows 8, can you guess what that reason might be?

Windows Phone 8 uses Secure Boot because it prevents tampering with the OS and means that the phone can support Bitlocker encryption for business users.

[xeleraph]

Except Secure Boot ISN'T required to boot a Windows 8 machine. It's optional for a reason on Windows 8, can you guess what that reason might be?

Windows Phone 8 uses Secure Boot because it prevents tampering with the OS and means that the phone can support Bitlocker encryption for business users.

You're missing the point. The point is that it can be made optional. So using it as an excuse to deny bringing WP8 to current devices... is just plain incompetent.