Game devs hating Windows 8?

[Alladaskill17]

I would like to understand why the front page for example, has an article about id's John Carmack hating Windows 8, and recent articles about Valve's Newell discussing Windows 8 pushing him to Linux due to its openness. What exactly did Microsoft do in Windows 8 to **** off people of importance in the gaming sector to make it more restricted?

Sent from HTC Titan, apologies for spelling/grammar.

[spaceelf]

WinRT.

WinRT will make them get new dev tools, and currently devs using WinRT must publish through the store, as far as I know you can't publish elsewhere yet. If this is true I suspect it's because the installer code isn't ready yet, considering it's new tech.

Other than that from what I understand the Start Screen frustrates devs because when you install Visual Studio it puts around 40 icons right in there.

I'm sure there are other reasons of course. It's the most disruptive (to the user, not applications) OS in a while and Win7 is still fantastic.

[Michael Winkler]

I think it has to do with the introduction of the Windows Store that comes with Windows 8.

It is a direct competition to Valve's Steam system, because it also delivers games directly to Windows users. But with the Windows Store, Microsoft wants to make some money. So if Valve wanted to distribute games through that store as well, they would have much lower margins, because otherwise the games would be too expensive for people.

On a Windows RT tablet the Windows Store will be the only way to purchase and download games. Therefore Valve and other game companies don't have a choice but to use the Store if they want to support those tablets.

But I don't think Linux is the answer for that!

Would you switch from Windows to Linux, just because some game companies stop producing for Windows and switch to Linux? No, you'd probably just use the Playstation or XBox you most likely already have. Why use a Linux machine that is too complicated to handle as a gaming platform, when you could just use a console that was made for this kind of thing and is very easy to use?

[Alladaskill17]

I think it has to do with the introduction of the Windows Store that comes with Windows 8.

It is a direct competition to Valve's Steam system, because it also delivers games directly to Windows users. But with the Windows Store, Microsoft wants to make some money. So if Valve wanted to distribute games through that store as well, they would have much lower margins, because otherwise the games would be too expensive for people.

On a Windows RT tablet the Windows Store will be the only way to purchase and download games. Therefore Valve and other game companies don't have a choice but to use the Store if they want to support those tablets.

But I don't think Linux is the answer for that!

Would you switch from Windows to Linux, just because some game companies stop producing for Windows and switch to Linux? No, you'd probably just use the Playstation or XBox you most likely already have. Why use a Linux machine that is too complicated to handle as a gaming platform, when you could just use a console that was made for this kind of thing and is very easy to use?

So it's not like Microsoft is restricting currently available resources or files within the OS? Just making it more competitive?

[PGHammer]

WinRT.

WinRT will make them get new dev tools, and currently devs using WinRT must publish through the store, as far as I know you can't publish elsewhere yet. If this is true I suspect it's because the installer code isn't ready yet, considering it's new tech.

Other than that from what I understand the Start Screen frustrates devs because when you install Visual Studio it puts around 40 icons right in there.

I'm sure there are other reasons of course. It's the most disruptive (to the user, not applications) OS in a while and Win7 is still fantastic.

So write Win32 games instead. They still work just fine; they just won't work in WindowsRT. And, just for your info, Win32 games *still* work in Windows 8.

Writing WinRT apps/games is, in fact, no different approach-wise than writing apps/games for iOS or Android - you're still forced to pass through specific portals (either the Android Market or Amazon AppStore for Android, or the iOS AppStore for iOS), what's all the fuss *really* about?

In fact, here's a rather surprising factoid that absolutely positively undercuts Gabe Newell's portion of the criticism - I selected Age of Empires Online from the Windows 8 RTM Store, and it promptly directed me to - surprise, surprise - install Steam.

[Deihmos]

I think it has more to do with the tablet UI.

[Stoffel]

I really don't understand the problem. They can still develop for Win8 just like they did for Win7. Only if they want their app to run on WinRT they have to sell it through the Windows Store. No different if they want to develop for Android or iOS. So I guess it's just standard MS hatred. (For some reason I can't use Enter when i'm posting on Neowin, so sorry for the bad layout)

[PGHammer]

I think it has more to do with the tablet UI.

So how would that normally impact Win32 games on Windows 8? Win32 games still launch from desktop shortcuts (or are pinnable to the Taskbar) just as is the case with Windows 7 - the only change will be for those that are used to the Start menu for launching games (which certainly doesn't describe most gamers that I know - most gamers that I know launch from desktop shortcuts).

Why does it seem to me like someone is trying to create an isue where there isn't one?

I really don't understand the problem. They can still develop for Win8 just like they did for Win7. Only if they want their app to run on WinRT they have to sell it through the Windows Store. No different if they want to develop for Android or iOS. So I guess it's just standard MS hatred. (For some reason I can't use Enter when i'm posting on Neowin, so sorry for the bad layout)

The issue is, in fact, unique to IE10 - I don't have it with Firefox or Waterfox. You can tell which browser I used to post with for that reason.

[Yusuf M. Veteran]

If you watch the John Carmack keynote, you'll know why he said he'd be happy if Windows 8 didn't exist. He said it because he's happy with Windows 7 and there's nothing he's looking forward to in Windows 8. I'm sure many of you know that game developers are resistant to change. It makes their job harder if they have to learn to do something differently and it usually adds time to a project. The developers at id Software stuck with Windows XP up until the release of Windows 7. They didn't jump to Windows Vista immediately because they didn't need to. It looks like the same thing is happening again.

To me, that doesn't make it seem like he hates Windows 8. And any game id Software develops for Windows 7 will work properly in Windows 8.

[dr_crabman]

I would like to understand why the front page for example, has an article about id's John Carmack hating Windows 8

He doesn't. The article and especially the headline are extremely misleading and that you fell for it should tell Neowin to up their quality standards for news on the frontpage. It's getting ridiculous.

[PGHammer]

If you watch the John Carmack keynote, you'll know why he said he'd be happy if Windows 8 didn't exist. He said it because he's happy with Windows 7 and there's nothing he's looking forward to in Windows 8. I'm sure many of you know that game developers are resistant to change. It makes their job harder if they have to learn to do something differently and it usually adds time to a project. The developers at id Software stuck with Windows XP up until the release of Windows 7. They didn't jump to Windows Vista immediately because they didn't need to. It looks like the same thing is happening again.

To me, that doesn't make it seem like he hates Windows 8. And any game id Software develops for Windows 7 will work properly in Windows 8.

Exactly, Anaron.

I've been pointing out *exactly that* since the Developer Preview arrived. Win32 games work the same way - so do Win32 *applications* pretty much.

I called this *don't want to move* syndrome in an earlier thread I kicked off on this very forum (The Real Reason Behind the FUD About Windows 8) and aparently even developers can suffer from it as well.

[nMIK-3]

For WinRT devices such as Tablets, game developers just need to deal with it and simply follow Microsoft guidance. Is exactly the same with whats going on with Apple's iOS and I do not see them complaining regarding that.

Second, is not like WinRT is taking x86/64 machines by tomorrow, that will take many years to happen and until then, everything in that environment works the same as it is today.

Because of that Valve should be really happy. I was really expecting Microsoft with Windows 8 to re-brand and completely replace "Games for Windows" platform with "Xbox Live for PC". Open up a fully complete online store for digital downloads with games from all major PC Game Studios, similar to Steam store, offer all XBOX amazing capabilities (that games for windows lacked to deliver besides your XBOX game profile and achievements) such as high quality of communication between gamers and online connectivity, use SkyDrive to Sync Saves so you can continue your game on another machine etc. Meanwhile the whole process if happen will be tightly connected with your Microsoft account, that will lead to a direct hit to piracy, exactly the same way it currently works with XBOX Live for consoles, Sony's PSN, and Steam accounts.

Nothing from the above happened so far. So for some really strange reason Microsoft is currently leaving Valve to rule the x86/64 PC game market! So unless the above is secretly coming, and Microsoft haven't announce it yet but somehow Valve is aware of it existence, then yes, I completely understand their concerns because it will be a matter of time for people to move from Steam to XBOX for PC platform, as their Microsoft Accounts which also represent their XBOX Profile is sooooo close connected and integrated with Windows 8.

Otherwise they need to be really really happy with whats going on in Windows 8 currently. From my point of view and as you can see from what I wrote, Microsoft is doing them a favor, that they haven't seriously integrated yet their super successful XBOX brand/capabilities with their Windows OS.

PS. Please do not take this post and turn it out to a debate of which platform is better or worst between Steam and Games for Windows.

[Sheza]

DPC Latency anyone?

[thommcg]

Developers invariably initially hate every new version of something they are forced to work with.

[Colin McGregor]

Developers invariably initially hate every new version of something they are forced to work with.

Not all of us hate every new version of something. Just the ones not good enough to adapt

[Andre S. Veteran]

John Carmack's point was that OSes have gotten so good now that it doesn't really matter from his point of view. He wasn't negative about Windows 8 (actually he had little else but praise for Microsoft throughout the talk), but as a game developer it seemed to him that it didn't bring anything exciting to the table.

Gabe Newell is scared about the Windows store competing with Steam.

That's about it.

[PGHammer]

DPC Latency anyone?

A surprisingly low max of 1072 microseconds from the included drivers (Realtek RTL8111E)/minimum of 1001 microseconds - thus a spread of 72 microseconds.

That's actully lower than the Windows 7 spread.

[Matthew_Thepc]

So it's not like Microsoft is restricting currently available resources or files within the OS? Just making it more competitive?

Exactly, on the x86 & x64 (that is, non-ARM) versions, it's been confirmed that basically all apps that run on Windows 7 run on the Windows 8 Desktop.

And, AFAIK, whether 3rd-party apps will be allowed on the ARM desktop is still anyone's guess (but I suspect they will).

But they are restricting Metro apps to the store - so if they for some reason wanted to port all their games to Metro, they'd have to give Microsoft about 20% of their profits

OP: LOL, the posts on Neowin's front page about game developers hating Windows 8 are some of the most blown out of proportion articles I've ever seen on Neowin. for example, a recent one was about how Notch 'bashed' windows 8...if you went to the source comment, he was actually saying that one of the biggest worries he has for indie games is that if Microsoft went the route of OSX's Gatekeeper and locked down Windows so that only registered developers could build apps for it. Which, btw, isn't happening any time in the foreseeable future ;) not to mention a twitter post by Notch; https://twitter.com/...02280844312576:

Just this week a reporter from them tried to get me to talk bad about Windows 8, for example. Don't like the store idea, like the rest [of] it.

It's really starting to scare me how much those Neowin 'news' posts are getting out of hand :s

but the reason the ones who legitly don't like it have is that if consumers actually end up loving Metro apps, then they'll be forced to sell their games through the Windows Store (which is the only place to get Metro apps on Windows 8 without jailbreaking it), and so they'll have to give Microsoft a 30-20% cut of their sales. And because of the possibility that Microsoft won't allow any non-Microsoft programs to run on the Desktop in ARM, but tbh, I doubt that.

TL;DR: Most of them don't. The only person who does (and has connections with the article) is the author of those posts who takes their comments completely out of context :angry: Those that do are (rightfully) afraid that if Metro takes off then they'll have to give MS a 20-30% cut of their profits

[chrisj1968]

I think he refereed to a new framework as well. Win8 changes the script yet again. I think that's what all the hoopla is about.

[+Ryster Subscriber²]

Not all of us hate every new version of something. Just the ones not good enough to adapt

Start screen aside (love it or hate it, it's personal preference), Windows 8 is superior to 7 in many ways. From OS speed, resource usage, task manager enhancements, copy/move/delete dialog improvements, etc. Saying it's "not good enough" is just pure FUD. If you have half a braincell you can avoid metro entirely if you want, so that's a non-issue.

[S00N3R FR3AK]

Carmack doesn't hate Windows 8, he just likes 7 and sees no point in moving on from what is working. He is indifferent to it and will support the platform.

[rhianntp]

They hate on Win 8 because they know better why its a cluster technically than we do ...all you really need to do is look at metro on a laptop or a desktop though and know this O/S is horse **** :)

[Skin]

Carmack doesn't hate Windows 8, he just likes 7 and sees no point in moving on from what is working.

Well, someone should tell him to do a better job coding in it... ID pretty much became irrelevant for a number of years, and now are looking to come back. If I was him, I'd focus on the latest and greatest and move from there.

Valve is running scared on profits and competition from the Store, and other devs seem to just be gaining press based on jumping on the bandwagon whil the story is 'hot'. In all, WIN8 doesn't bring much 'new' past 7, but it sure does streamline some stuff, and lower some latency, increase throughput, and overall, is better - UI liking aside.

[+Warwagon MVC]

He doesn't. The article and especially the headline are extremely misleading and that you fell for it should tell Neowin to up their quality standards for news on the frontpage. It's getting ridiculous.

Well they didn't put words in his mouth, he really did say that! Though he did go on to explain his answer.

[rhianntp]

all of Carmack's games work perfect on linux ...once the rest of the devs start embracing linux a bit more MS is through...its been a long time coming ..this attempt to take on apple at the expense of their own customer base is going to cost them dearly... this whole metro thjng has been solely for the purpose of having their own brand slate pc ..which also has little to no chance of unseating apple in that space...meanwhile they will be alienating a very large percent of their current customers....nice