vcfan Posted August 19, 2012 Author Share Posted August 19, 2012 Enough said. touch first not touch only. read the thread title. just because it is touch supported doesn't mean its not meant for keyboard and mouse. the controls are designed to be used by different inputs. like I said,you don't have to make everything big, you can make smaller controls that work well for touch,and not too big for mouse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Active. Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 touch first not touch only. You were already called out on that straw man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BajiRav Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Enough said. There is difference between touch first and touch only. I think that's what OP was trying to get at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vcfan Posted August 19, 2012 Author Share Posted August 19, 2012 go look at photoshop,come back and tell me what are the limitations of implementing it in winrt, other than loading external filters that are DLLs because that is a security concern. again, I see absolutely nothing preventing that kind of app of existing. Microsoft word? Soundforge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BajiRav Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 go look at photoshop,come back and tell me what are the limitations of implementing it in winrt, other than loading external filters that are DLLs because that is a security concern. again, I see absolutely nothing preventing that kind of app of existing. Microsoft word? Soundforge? I agree that the API may not prevent it but store policies certainly will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew_Thepc Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 if I understand correctly, OP - you're looking at things from a developers POV. you're thinking "the features needed to build photoshop are implemented in WinRT, so why's everyone saying you can't have photoshop in WinRT?" the others are thinking more around the design of Metro apps themselves; they have to be large, focus on the content, etc. etc. sure, the features are available in the language/API, but it would be hard to design it within Metro guidelines. (not siding with one side or the other, just trying to clear up the differing points for the OP/others) FiB3R 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeChipshop Member Posted August 19, 2012 Member Share Posted August 19, 2012 I agree with the OP that Modern UI apps aren't just for touch. However i don;t think i've heard that many people state this as fact. FiB3R 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koolguy Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 But the point is Metro was designed basically for touch apps right? That's where MS lacks its presence. FiB3R 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BajiRav Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 But the point is Metro was designed basically for touch apps right? That's where MS lacks its presence. uh...no. It was designed to work well with all input types. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Neo Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 uh...no. It was designed to work well with all input types. :laugh: Matthew_Thepc, Active., FiB3R and 2 others 5 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGHammer Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 I really like Metro Modern UI, and I'm not using touchscreen device. It's just new and people are not getting used to it. After some time everyone will start to like it. That's my opinion :) Precisely. What IS true about WinRT apps is that they were designed for lower resolutions mostly - they don't scale to desktop display sizes (1680x1050 or higher). Believe it or not, the same is true of the Kindle e-reader (I'm talking the Win32, not WinRT/ModernUI version); however, because it can run in a window, that *sin* is forgiven it. ModernUI apps don't have text-scalability (however, most Win32 applications don't, either) - the same issue that plagues WinRT/ModernUI apps actually plagues Win32 apps in reverse - they don't scale *down* to notebooks or smaller screen sizes/resolutions well. Age-old problem here, and it's not even unique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeChipshop Member Posted August 19, 2012 Member Share Posted August 19, 2012 :laugh: Works fine with all input types here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGHammer Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 But the point is Metro was designed basically for touch apps right? That's where MS lacks its presence. ModernUI was primarily designed for *lower-resolution* devices with smaller screen sizes - tablets, slates, netbooks, and Ultrabooks/notebooks. Where are the majority of complaints coming from about the ModernUI and apps designed for it? Desktop owners, with higher resolutions/larger screen sizes. The issue is not unique to ModernUI, or even to WinRT - look at the Kindle e-reading application for Windows 7/Win32 (it runs quite happily in Windows 8). Same problem - however, it can run windowed; hence, it's forgiven the *sin* it commits, while ModernUI/WinRT apps (that run full-screen) are whacked for it. Design flaw, and not even API-specific, either. Where I'm curious is what do notebook and laptop owners think of ModernUI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Neo Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Works fine with all input types here. I find it awkward, frustrating and hate the fact it wastes to much screen estate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BajiRav Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Precisely. What IS true about WinRT apps is that they were designed for lower resolutions mostly - they don't scale to desktop display sizes (1680x1050 or higher). Believe it or not, the same is true of the Kindle e-reader (I'm talking the Win32, not WinRT/ModernUI version); however, because it can run in a window, that *sin* is forgiven it. ModernUI apps don't have text-scalability (however, most Win32 applications don't, either) - the same issue that plagues WinRT/ModernUI apps actually plagues Win32 apps in reverse - they don't scale *down* to notebooks or smaller screen sizes/resolutions well. Age-old problem here, and it's not even unique. That's not true, apps can scale to higher resolutions, they just don't scale to random resolutions. I think there are three standard resolutions, which are supported. I find it awkward, frustrating and hate the fact it wastes to much screen estate. That is a problem of your hardware/driver not metro apps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGHammer Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 This is the biggest misconception I've been seeing. Most people are basing their opinion on the very few apps that exist preloaded or in the windows store. It is a flawed opinion once you get the whole picture. I just loaded up visual studio,and created some mock user interfaces of popular desktop applications, like photoshop, digital audio workstations, video editor, and web browser. There is absolutely nothing in the user interface,i found, that would limit apps to touch only. The controls seem designed not only to include keyboard and mouse, but they are touch friendly too. They can all co exist you know,and Modern UI shows that. These are not touch only, go try it yourself and tell me how they are touch only. Most people bitch about certain limited features, like full file access, but these are all mostly security related,and believe it or not, even if winrt was not created, win32 would have eventually stripped these privelages away,in the name of security. Great you are knowledgable enough to not allow malware to infect your system, but Microsoft has a responsibility to keep its users safe. If you have a better solution, go tell Microsoft, if not deal with it. No - ModernUI is *far* from touch-only. However, ModernUI apps (and especially those written under the WinRT API) are very much targeted at lower-resolution displays - often lower than the typical (of today) notebook. How common are 15" notebooks today? Nowadays, that's the high end of the "netbook/Ultrabook" market - notebooks are now mostly 17". Yet less than a decade ago, the 15" notebook or laptop was a high-end portable. ModernUI apps are *more* likely to take greater advantage of touch because such support is more likely to be found in the form-factor and resolution it was designed around (tablets/slates/netbooks/Ultrabooks/notebooks) - they are *horses* designed for lower-resolution *courses*. It's why you don't have quarter-horses and thoroughbreds on the same tracks - to borrow an analogy from the critics. You CAN run a ModernUI app on a desktop - however, due to ModernUI lacking font scalability, it is generally a poor fit. It's not a problem unique to ModernUI, however - quite a few Win32 applications have the same problem; they work around it by running in a window (which ModernUI apps can't do). I specifically mention the Kindle reading app for Win32 as being plagued with the problem. (That is likely why the Calibre reading app (which supports the same format) is preferred - unlike the Kindle app, it was designed specifically as a *desktop* application.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antsy Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 meh.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Neo Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 That is a problem of your hardware/driver not metro apps. No, it's the way Metro and its apps are currently designed. Hardware or drivers have nothing to do with everything being full-screen, which is largely pointless on anything bigger than 15-inch. Vice 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Active. Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 The Metro UI works fine with mouse&keyboard as long as you don't mind - long cursor travel distances - constantly right-clicking just to bring up the UI - lack of proper drag and drop support - mostly nonexistent contextual menus - being forced to select something then click somewhere else to perform an action on the selected item (in the Music app for example to play a song) instead of simple double-clicking - (?) FiB3R 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGHammer Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 I find it awkward, frustrating and hate the fact it wastes to much screen estate. Desktop user, .Neo? Read what I pointed out - ModernUI was indeed designed primarily for lower-resolution devices. Touch is more common on such devices (for reasons of cost); however, it's far from unique to such devices. The real issue is screen-resolution (not touch). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PGHammer Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 The Metro UI works fine with mouse&keyboard as long as you don't mind - long cursor travel distances - constantly right-clicking just to bring up the UI - lack of proper drag and drop support - mostly nonexistent contextual menus - being forced to select something then click somewhere else to perform an action on the selected item (in the Music app for example to play a song) instead of simple double-clicking - (?) Let's tackle those one at a time, and in order - 1. That is a resolution-design issue - ModernUI was designed for devices with lower screen resolutions and smaller screen sizes than are commonplace on desktops (note that the highest resolution in the ModernUI guidelines is *lower* than 1920x1080). 2. Right-clicking is commonplace in Windows 7 as well, and everywhere - in that issue, Windows 8 actually follows 7 (and Vista, and XP). 3. Define *proper* drag and drop - you can indeed drag and drop tiles on the Start Screen; I dragged my Desktop tile from lower-left to upper-left, so I can open the tile with the Enter key from the Start Screen. Alternatively, I can bring up the StartScreen anytime by just tapping the Windows logo key (the default). 4. Compared to what? Where is a contextual menu missing in Windows 8 where it was *present* in Windows 7? 5. I don't use the Music app - instead, I use the same application I used in Windows 7 to play MP3s - VLC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeChipshop Member Posted August 19, 2012 Member Share Posted August 19, 2012 I find it awkward, frustrating and hate the fact it wastes to much screen estate. Like i said, works fine with all input types. Whether or not you like the amount of screen used isn't the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Active. Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 1. That is a resolution-design issue - ModernUI was designed for devices with lower screen resolutions and smaller screen sizes okay? 2. Right-clicking is commonplace in Windows 7 as well There is often literally no visible UI unless you right-click first in Metro. Look at the reader app for example. And it disappears again as soon as you perform a single action. 3. Define *proper* drag and drop - Moving objects between apps and within the app, like selecting a song and dragging it into a playlist. 4. Compared to what? Where is a contextual menu missing in Windows 8 where it was *present* in Windows 7? Right-clicking the start screen should bring up a contextual menu. Also right-clicking search results for example. 5. I don't use the Music app okay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.Neo Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 Like i said, works fine with all input types. Whether or not you like the amount of screen used isn't the same thing. Screen estate is not the only thing I wrote down. Next to that wasting away screen estate like there's no tomorrow isn't my definition of "working fine" either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeChipshop Member Posted August 19, 2012 Member Share Posted August 19, 2012 Screen estate is not the only thing I wrote down. That's great, I'm happy for you :D Doesn't change my last post though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts