cycling USADA To Strip Lance Armstrong Of 7 Tour Titles

[threetonesun]

I don't doubt he did something, but unless they're going to test their way through everyone who ran in the Tour every year, this is a non-issue.

They cheat, get over it. If you want them to stop cheating, stop paying them millions of dollars.

[coresx]

Why would the whole team suddenly admit such a thing ?

Did they perhaps not make a lot of money during their careers and the USADA are throwing some cash their way to lie with no risk because there is no proof. That's easy money and the USADA make a name for themselves.

People have been trying to prove Armstrong is a drug cheat for years, that amount of focus, he should have been caught if he was. Many other cyclists were caught during his time.

If the USADA actually had anything, they would tell all, go on, show us the evidence when Armstrong has given up defending himself, that's the right thing to do.

Will they ?

[ahhell]

Well when you have a billion dollars of Nike R&D behind you, I'm pretty sure you can be good at hiding stuff.

[Guest LiquidCrystalMeth]

Aww he cant be guilty because he's Ameri-can, **** yeah!

Leaving thread due to overload of delusion

[Astra.Xtreme]

Aww he cant be guilty because he's Ameri-can, **** yeah!

Leaving thread due to overload of delusion

Thank you for leaving since you clearly have nothing intelligent to add to the conversation. Bye...

Funny how you blame others for being delusional, but yet you are believing so hard in something that's not even there... Irony...

[theyarecomingforyou]

Innocent until proven guilty... If you have proof, then either put up or shut up.

Actually, that's not how opinions work. He may be legally innocent but that doesn't mean that people won't consider him guilty based upon the evidence.

Why would the whole team suddenly admit such a thing ?

Did they perhaps not make a lot of money during their careers and the USADA are throwing some cash their way to lie with no risk because there is no proof. That's easy money and the USADA make a name for themselves.

I don't see what point you're trying to make, as either the US cycling team and the USADA are systemically corrupt or one of the US's most high profile athlete is. Either way it brings US sport into disrepute. Does it really seem more likely that the USADA and all his team mates are out to get him? Surely it's more likely that one guy cheated than the USADA being a corrupt organisation with a vendetta against him, aided by a dozens top athletes with no moral integrity and who are willing to lie for... what, money?

It never ceases to amaze me the elaborate conspiracy theories people will come up with. Occam's razor dictates that Lance is guilty.

[LaP]

I think he probably did dope.. or at least it wouldn't shock me in the least.. But with that said..

The USADA can't really do much.. it would be like Canada saying it's gonna take away the Stanley Cup from the LA Kings.. We can say it all we wan't, but we have no authority to do so..

All Tour de France winners are doped anyway. I don't think it's even possible these days to win this comp clean.

[Astra.Xtreme]

Actually, that's not how opinions work. He may be legally innocent but that doesn't mean that people won't consider him guilty based upon the evidence.

There isn't any evidence though. Just people throwing around baseless claims.

People can have opinions all they want, but too many people here are so sure of themselves that he's a cheat that they even torment the people that believe otherwise. The proof and logic point toward his innocence, so I really see no reason for people to insist otherwise.

[LaP]

There isn't any evidence though. Just people throwing around baseless claims.

People can have opinions all they want, but too many people here are so sure of themselves that he's a cheat that they even torment the people that believe otherwise. The proof and logic point toward his innocence, so I really see no reason for people to insist otherwise.

To be honest if 10 people are willing to testify against you in front of a judge you are in deep trouble.

[Astra.Xtreme]

To be honest if 10 people are willing to testify against you in front of a judge you are in deep trouble.

They tried that multiple times in court and it didn't work.

[theyarecomingforyou]

There isn't any evidence though. Just people throwing around baseless claims.

But they're not baseless. His entire team is willing to testify against him and the USADA obviously believes it has enough evidence to go after him. Are you expecting me to believe he's giving up his 7 Tour de France wins and permanently tarnishing his professional name simply because appealing is too much effort? If more evidence comes out to support his innocence then I'm happy to change my opinion but based upon what we know it seems more likely that he's guilty than the entire sport being against him.

[br0adband]

Armstrong has said in court documents that he has never had "a single positive test" in the 500 to 600 drug tests he's taken in his more than two decades in cycling.

500-600 drug tests, of all kinds - blood, urine, hair, etc - and not one positive verifiable result and yet all it takes it an accusation to bring this guy down.

This world, and pretty much every single human on it, suck, and it's just getting worse. :(

If more evidence comes out to support his innocence then I'm happy to change my opinion but based upon what we know it seems more likely that he's guilty than the entire sport being against him.

But that's the wrong way to do things: innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable or even a shadow of a doubt is the best way to handle this. Until we get absolute incontrovertible evidence or he flat out admits that yes he did something wrong, he's innocent. There's no getting around that and it should be the stance taken by anyone.

I have read over most of the materials that are currently available since I've been following this crap for a long time, and I've yet to see one absolute verifiable piece of evidence that Lance Armstrong has ever done any doping, ever. All I see are a lot of people focused on bringing him down for whatever silly spiteful reasons they have - they're humans, so it's not surprising they're doing this.

He's innocent till something proves him guilty, period.

[Astra.Xtreme]

But they're not baseless. His entire team is willing to testify against him and the USADA obviously believes it has enough evidence to go after him. Are you expecting me to believe he's giving up his 7 Tour de France wins and permanently tarnishing his professional name simply because appealing is too much effort? If more evidence comes out to support his innocence then I'm happy to change my opinion but based upon what we know it seems more likely that he's guilty than the entire sport being against him.

It's probably to the point that he's sick of having people harass him and breathe down his neck everywhere he goes.

Like you said, there's a big group of people all aimed at taking him down by all means necessary, so that's a horrible thing to sit through for all these years. He never tested positive and he never admitted anything, but he's just sick of having the constant target on his back. People will always believe what they want, proof or not, and he really don't have to prove anything to anybody anymore since it's been out on the table for years now. There's nothing further that he can do, so what's the point in sitting through trials for the rest of his life?

[matt4pack]

A lot of those cyclist who got caught were never caught as a result of drugs tests. They got caught because they had the substances in their possession. For a man who claims his innocence he sure was stupid for hanging out with doctors and cyclists who were busted for drug use.

He was just better a better cheater then the others.

[HawkMan]

There isn't any evidence though. Just people throwing around baseless claims.

People can have opinions all they want, but too many people here are so sure of themselves that he's a cheat that they even torment the people that believe otherwise. The proof and logic point toward his innocence, so I really see no reason for people to insist otherwise.

Theyr're not baseles with 10+ witnesses who also admitted they themselves doped at them same time as well as a case of bribery and other stuff.

You do know the legal system can judge people without hard evidence if there's enough credible witnesses. And guess what, they have. He's not contesting because he can't fight it, so he's simply not contesting hoping that some die hard fans will believe his lies. Fact is, in a case like this, with this much to risk, you DO NOT stand down unless you're guilty.

[theyarecomingforyou]

But that's the wrong way to do things: innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable or even a shadow of a doubt is the best way to handle this. Until we get absolute incontrovertible evidence or he flat out admits that yes he did something wrong, he's innocent. There's no getting around that and it should be the stance taken by anyone.

By refusing to contest the charges he has been / will be found guilty and stripped of his titles. Is it proven beyond "a shadow of a doubt"? No, but all we have is his word that he's innocent. But again, you're resorting to a legal definition of innocence - people are free to form their own opinions.

Anyway, I don't think this discussion is going anywhere. The only thing we can agree on is that it has damaged the reputation of US sport and that regardless of the doping he is still a very talented athlete.

[Astra.Xtreme]

By refusing to contest the charges he has been / will be found guilty and stripped of his titles. Is it proven beyond "a shadow of a doubt"? No, but all we have is his word that he's innocent. But again, you're resorting to a legal definition of innocence - people are free to form their own opinions.

Anyway, I don't think this discussion is going anywhere. The only thing we can agree on is that it has damaged the reputation of US sport and that regardless of the doping he is still a very talented athlete.

We don't just have his "word". We also have hundreds of drug tests that he always passed. That physical proof goes a long ways and in my opinion is much more valid that a group of angry cheaters wanting to drag him down with them.

[MightyJordan]

It's official: Lance Armstrong is stripped of his seven Tour de France titles

The US Anti-Doping Agency has stripped Lance Armstrong of his seven Tour de France titles, erasing one of the most impressive sporting achievements of all time after deciding he had used performance-enhancing drugs to do it.

Armstrong, 40, who retired a year ago, was also hit with a lifetime ban from cycling. An athlete who became a hero to thousands for overcoming cancer and for his foundation's fight against the disease is now officially a drug cheat in the eyes of his nation's doping agency.

Usada said Armstrong's decision not to take the charges against him to arbitration triggers the lifetime ineligibility and forfeiture of all results from 1 August 1998 through to the present, which would include the Tour de France titles he won between 1999 and 2005.

Armstrong has strongly denied doping and contends Usada was on a "witch hunt" without any physical evidence against him. He had decided not to contest the charges on Thursday.

The Usada statement read: "USADA announced today that Lance Armstrong has chosen not to move forward with the independent arbitration process and as a result has received a lifetime period of ineligibility and disqualification of all competitive results from August 1, 1998 through the present, as the result of his anti-doping rule violations stemming from his involvement in the United States Postal Service (USPS) Cycling Team Doping Conspiracy (USPS Conspiracy).

"Following the dismissal of Mr. Armstrong's lawsuit on Monday, August 20, 2012, by the federal court in Austin, Texas, Mr. Armstrong had until midnight on Thursday, August 23, to contest the evidence against him in a full evidentiary hearing with neutral arbitrators as provided by US law. However, when given the opportunity to challenge the evidence against him, and with full knowledge of the consequences, Mr. Armstrong chose not to contest the fact that he engaged in doping violations from at least August 1, 1998 and participated in a conspiracy to cover up his actions.

"As a result of Mr. Armstrong's decision, USADA is required under the applicable rules, including the World Anti-Doping Code under which he is accountable, to disqualify his competitive results and suspend him from all future competition."

[theyarecomingforyou]

We don't just have his "word". We also have hundreds of drug tests that he always passed. That physical proof goes a long ways and in my opinion is much more valid that a group of angry cheaters wanting to drag him down with them.

As has been stated, doping tests are easily fooled. It's also worth noting that other people in his team passed the same drugs tests but later pleaded guilty to doping, so we know that if he was doping that the tests wouldn't pick it up. He's lashing out to protect his name, knowing full well that had it continued he would have likely been found guilty anyway. He stopped contesting the charges to try to cast doubt on the entire process, which has obviously worked.

[CG-88]

As has been stated, doping tests are easily fooled. It's also worth noting that other people in his team passed the same drugs tests but later pleaded guilty to doping, so we know that if he was doping that the tests wouldn't pick it up. He's lashing out to protect his name, knowing full well that had it continued he would have likely been found guilty anyway. He stopped contesting the charges to try to cast doubt on the entire process, which has obviously worked.

You are making sense with your arguments to be honest. Even though I respect the guy and have defended him multiple times in this thread I am finding more and more logic in your argument and seeing your point of view.

[Shane Nokes]

The CEO of USADA has said this is the case - they have something 10 or more ex team mates who are all saying they saw him doping but who are all remaining anonymous!

It's hard to know what to make of this to be honest and if it's true it's pretty sad - the guy is pretty inspirational. Ho hum :(

So the CEO of the agency that is performing the witchhunt claims to have 10 witnesses that he will not name, nor will produce now at this point. So we'll never know if they actually existed, but have the word of the guy who instantly declared Lance guilty because he was tired of fighting the claims for years.

Not sure I buy that one. I'm not slapping your post down, but stating that I need a lot more before I nail someone to the wall. ;)

I don't think all the people who go on about how he passed the tests understand how recent certain blood doping techniques would be detected at all, much less be detected reliably. especially when he did fail one of the recent tests and paid off to get out of it.

Yeah, his whole team admitting they doped, and he did it to, totally irrelevant. those 10 guys who took the same tests and passed obviously lied while he is telling the truth.

yup that seems like the likely scenario

Actually, 10 anonymous people who they have never revealed the identity of...hence no proof that they actually saw anything since it's never been stated who they are and how they had access to him.

Also that 'recent' test was actually 13 years ago, and was proven to be a cream Lance used for saddle sores. He didn't pay anything off. A single test 13 year ago popped positive, and then it was proven what the cause was, and it was a perfectly normal thing, not a performance enhancing drug.

[Astra.Xtreme]

As has been stated, doping tests are easily fooled. It's also worth noting that other people in his team passed the same drugs tests but later pleaded guilty to doping, so we know that if he was doping that the tests wouldn't pick it up. He's lashing out to protect his name, knowing full well that had it continued he would have likely been found guilty anyway. He stopped contesting the charges to try to cast doubt on the entire process, which has obviously worked.

The problem is that there is still the possibility that he is completely innocent. And that's a big big problem.

He passed all the tests, so it's not fair to brush off that fact and claim he cheated anyway. At that point, what's the point of having the doping tests at all? Let's just punish anybody that happens to be better than anybody else for a long period of time.

People have been on his case for years and years, so there's no way that there could suddenly be some new proof that shows he cheated. Plain and simple, Lance was tired of being bullied. He proved his innocence many times, so why they allowed this nonsense to keep going is beyond me.

[cropcircles]

Dan Patrick interview this morning with U.S. Anti-Doping Agency chief executive Travis Tygart

http://www.danpatrick.com/2012/08/24/usadas-tygart-comments-on-decision-to-strip-armstrong-of-tour-de-france-titles/

[Shane Nokes]

Theyr're not baseles with 10+ witnesses who also admitted they themselves doped at them same time as well as a case of bribery and other stuff.

You do know the legal system can judge people without hard evidence if there's enough credible witnesses. And guess what, they have. He's not contesting because he can't fight it, so he's simply not contesting hoping that some die hard fans will believe his lies. Fact is, in a case like this, with this much to risk, you DO NOT stand down unless you're guilty.

Indeed. The evidence & witness testimony in this case is about as credible as the info that put away the West Memphis 3 almost 20 years ago...

It's official: Lance Armstrong is stripped of his seven Tour de France titles

[/font][/color]

Actually it's not official. The USADA doesn't have the ability to strip the titles. All they can do is petition to have them removed. The agency that actually issues the titles has taken issue with the USADA findings, and are backing Lance.

As has been stated, doping tests are easily fooled. It's also worth noting that other people in his team passed the same drugs tests but later pleaded guilty to doping, so we know that if he was doping that the tests wouldn't pick it up. He's lashing out to protect his name, knowing full well that had it continued he would have likely been found guilty anyway. He stopped contesting the charges to try to cast doubt on the entire process, which has obviously worked.

Lashing out, and stopped contesting...all in the same post...

Huh...how counterproductive of him...

[theyarecomingforyou]

The problem is that there is still the possibility that he is completely innocent. And that's a big big problem.

He passed all the tests, so it's not fair to brush off that fact and claim he cheated anyway.

I understand and mostly agree with where you're coming from but we'll likely never have all the information and never know the truth for certain. We can only make an educated guess and I've made it clear where I stand.

You are making sense with your arguments to be honest. Even though I respect the guy and have defended him multiple times in this thread I am finding more and more logic in your argument and seeing your point of view.

Yeah, thanks. I'm not expecting everyone to agree with my conclusion but I try to be as objective as possible. I mean, we may see evidence come out in the near future exposing widespread USADA corruption in which case my opinion could change dramatically. I have no personal feelings about the matter one way or the other.