What Killed the Linux Desktop (by GNOME founder Miguel de Icaza)


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ViperAFK

The ironic thing is ubuntu's unity is more OSX-esq than gnome-shell, yet somehow neo praises ubuntu for going their own way, unlike gnome 3's supposed "osx aping". Honestly it sounds like you've never even used gnome 3/gnome-shell, or are just on some kind of strange fanboy vendetta against it.

Anyway this thread is derailed enough already, I'm done :p

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javagreen

Be sure to take your pills before you pop a vain.

Looks like you've already found a like minded troll post to 'like'. And I usually pop trolls like you, not a "vain" ;)

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@Leo

Looks like you've already got a fan who's liked your post. And I usually pop trolls like you, not a "vain" ;)

So far you are the only troll here, cursing and acting like an idiot.

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javagreen

So far you are the only troll here, cursing and acting like an idiot.

U MAD BRO? :rolleyes:

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@Leo

Nope, I'm having a laugh at the expense of a Linux fanboy. :laugh:

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.Neo

The ironic thing is ubuntu's unity is more OSX-esq than gnome-shell, yet somehow neo praises ubuntu for going their own way, unlike gnome 3's supposed "osx aping". Honestly it sounds like you've never even used gnome 3/gnome-shell, or are just on some kind of strange fanboy vendetta against it.

The only thing I'm saying here, something that's completely lost on you people, is that you won't ever gain much success by being a knock-off. Try to have your own identity. As long as you do that you can take all the cues you want from whatever OS. Something I think Ubuntu has done very well compared to - let's say - elementary OS.

Anyway this thread is derailed enough already, I'm done

Agreed, let's just leave it at that.

Looks like you've already found a like minded troll post to 'like'.

That's what the "like this" button is for.

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javagreen

That's what the "like this" button is for.

Thanks for proving my point.

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.Neo

Thanks for proving my point.

You're very welcome. Would you like to go over other obvious button functions as well? Like the "Quote" button is there to?

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javagreen

You're very welcome. Would you like to go over other obvious button functions as well? Like the "Quote" button is there to?

No, thank you - I figured that one out by myself. And I see what you did there.

Look, I just looked back and I realize I probably came off as too aggressive in my original post (quoting you) but that's only because I'm terribly sick and tired of reading trollish posts by people like you who post their opinions as facts. You're not an Mac user, are you? Just wondering, because (some) Mac users are known to have trollish behaviour embedded in their genes. It's hard to distinguish sometimes, between who's a troll and who's not these days.

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ToneKnee

Sorry, I like Windows and Linux equally, though, for different reasons and uses. Linux is indeed a complete mess.

  • You have different package managers.
  • Different type of distros
  • More distros based on those distros.
  • Different kernels
  • Different release cycles
  • Different licences
  • Different desktop environments with different versions

The problem is that there is too many of everything and no consistency. On reddit today, I made a comment that even the minor things like default wallpaper (which is absolutely horrid, 1998 style which looks like a 5 year old did it) are not nice to the end user.

Linux has problems with the small and big things. The last I can remember from not long ago that Linux has 2% of the desktop market (maybe a little more now). For a market (and lets not include the server market has that is more consistent) that has 2% of the global market, you are too far spread out with enough mess and issues that you cannot be taken serious.

Microsoft is having a hard time as of late with it's new Windows 8 OS which the metro changes. This is an operating system that hasn't even been released to the general public and yet we nearly have enough hate to topple Windows Vista and Windows Me over in the amount of issues people have with it. (I'm happy with it btw). But it goes to show that if you change or remove things then you'll have people walking away.

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ViperAFK

The only thing I'm saying here, something that's completely lost on you people, is that you won't ever gain much success by being a knock-off. Try to have your own identity. As long as you do that you can take all the cues you want from whatever OS. Something I think Ubuntu has done very well compared to - let's say - elementary OS.

Agreed, let's just leave it at that.

That's what the "like this" button is for.

Well of course, elemtary os does try to be very osx like, but where the hell have I been talking about elemtary OS? elementary OS is not every linux distro, and its not vanilla gnome 3. I agree ubuntu is doing a good job trying to make their own identity, all I'm saying is please stop lumping every other distro into the "OSX Clone" group, only a few distros try to do that, and gnome 3 does not try to do that.

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.Neo
and gnome 3 does not try to do that.

I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

Look, I just looked back and I realize I probably came off as too aggressive in my original post (quoting you) but that's only because I'm terribly sick and tired of reading trollish posts by people like you who post their opinions as facts. You're not an Mac user, are you? Just wondering, because (some) Mac users are known to have trollish behaviour embedded in their genes. It's hard to distinguish sometimes, between who's a troll and who's not these days.

I am a Mac user, partially because it isn't very easy for me to switch desktop platforms. I rely on certain apps that aren't available on either Windows or Linux such as Final Cut Studio / Final Cut Pro. However, I very much enjoy using other products as well. I'm not dependent on a single phone platform so that's the reason I now own a Nokia Lumia 900 running Windows Phone 7.5, a BlackBerry Torch 9860 (2011) before that and an HTC Legend running Android (2010) before that. It's kinda boring to have everything from a single company don't you think? ;)

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javagreen

Sorry, I like Windows and Linux equally, though, for different reasons and uses. Linux is indeed a complete mess.

  • You have different package managers.
  • Different type of distros
  • More distros based on those distros.
  • Different kernels
  • Different release cycles
  • Different licences
  • Different desktop environments with different versions

The problem is that there is too many of everything and no consistency. On reddit today, I made a comment that even the minor things like default wallpaper (which is absolutely horrid, 1998 style which looks like a 5 year old did it) are not nice to the end user.

Linux has problems with the small and big things. The last I can remember from not long ago that Linux has 2% of the desktop market (maybe a little more now). For a market (and lets not include the server market has that is more consistent) that has 2% of the global market, you are too far spread out with enough mess and issues that you cannot be taken serious.

Microsoft is having a hard time as of late with it's new Windows 8 OS which the metro changes. This is an operating system that hasn't even been released to the general public and yet we nearly have enough hate to topple Windows Vista and Windows Me over in the amount of issues people have with it. (I'm happy with it btw). But it goes to show that if you change or remove things then you'll have people walking away.

Sometimes it's good to see both, the good side and the bad. You and many others seem to only pick on the bad side. I actually agree with you about the visual inadequacies, and that's not exactly hard to fix even for novice users. And you know what's funny? When people (devs and end users) actually try to fix these inadequacies (visual and functional), they're written off as trying to clone OSX, or any other OS.

You get a stable unix like OS for free, you just install it and configure it with a theme / DE and you're done. I ask again, how exactly is that a bad thing?

Yes, the multiple distros and forks of those distros need to be controlled. Hell, forks of _everything_ needs to be controlled and more work needs to go into compatibility issues that arise. However, I also feel these things are blown WAY out of proportion. You download Distro X - you use the package manager it comes with. How difficult is that? Don't like the DE? Download and install another one, any from the most popular ones and be done with it. Most of the things work out of the box these days.

There are probably many small businesses and mom & pop outlets that may be using some variant of Linux for their day to day business, saving them a large amount of cash that'd have otherwise gone towards Microsoft or Apple ware. This particular group may be completely oblivious to most of the issues being discussed here - probably it doesn't affect them that much. They get by just fine. This is a good side that's often overlooked in such type of discussions.

For example, I want to install Gimp 2.8 on my 11.04 Ubuntu based distro. I can't ... not unless I compile it myself for 11.04. It's not going to happen - because it's too much work and I probably aren't up to it. So does that render my existing Gimp 2.7 install unusable? Hell no. I can opt to bite the bullet and move on to the current 12.04 distro, or make do with 2.7.

I have a choice, and that's the only thing that matters.

I want to write much much more, but I'm exhausted... I've just got back from a long and straining journey. However, I hope I've got my point across, even if it's in a small way. (And pardon the typos, if there are any ;) )

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ViperAFK

I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

I am a Mac user, partially because it isn't very easy for me to switch desktop platforms. I rely on certain apps that aren't available on either Windows or Linux such as Final Cut Studio / Final Cut Pro. However, I very much enjoy using other products as well. I'm not dependent on a single phone platform so that's the reason I now own a Nokia Lumia 900 running Windows Phone 7.5, a BlackBerry Torch 9860 (2011) before that and an HTC Legend running Android (2010) before that. It's kinda boring to have everything from a single company don't you think? ;)

I'm afraid you are confusing gnome 3 and elementary os.

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.Neo
And you know what's funny? When people (devs and end users) actually try to fix these inadequacies (visual and functional), they're written off as trying to clone OSX, or any other OS.

I guess that very much depends on how developers implement it and more importantly how it's being presented. The Ubuntu team claimed something along the lines of the following: We personally came up with a brand new feature where you can now search for a certain Menu Bar command and the command will automatically pop-up. Isn't that amazing and handy? They even went as far as taking the OS X Menu Bar as an example of how antiquated all the other operating systems were. In all their smugness they neglected to mention OS X has had this exact feature since the first OS X Tiger Developer Preview dating all the way back to 2004.

So yeah, when you're doing it like that you're bound to raise a few eyebrows. That said, these practices aren't limited to Linux developers alone.

I'm afraid you are confusing gnome 3 and elementary os.

Don't be.

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javagreen

I am a Mac user, partially because it isn't very easy for me to switch desktop platforms. I rely on certain apps that aren't available on either Windows or Linux such as Final Cut Studio / Final Cut Pro. However, I very much enjoy using other products as well.

That's cool, however, It still puzzles me as to why you're so quick to put your finger on visual and similarities between Linux DEs and OSX without actually looking into the functional aspect of it, and it's implementation on Linux. Are you unhappy about Linux achieving the same level of ease of use and wow factor, or are you objecting to Linux devs' implementation of functions and actions on Linux, which may (or may not) bear a resemblance to it's OSX counterpart?

Why exactly are you dismissing Linux? Why is any of it a bad thing, particularly considering how much it gives back to it's users without needing anything back from them. What's your objective - because it certainly doesn't seem to help your case. Honest question ;)

I'm not dependent on a single phone platform so that's the reason I now own a Nokia Lumia 900 running Windows Phone 7.5, a BlackBerry Torch 9860 (2011) before that and an HTC Legend running Android (2010) before that. It's kinda boring to have everything from a single company don't you think? ;)

Fair enough, and a good practice actually ;)

From that perspective, I'm in the same boat as you - I have run several versions of OSX hack'ntoshed, run Linux and Windows 8, have an iPhone, an Android phone and a Symbian phone (Yep, and it still works great)

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Knife Party

You keep living in Lala Land pretending Gnome's goal isn't to largely mimic Apple. While you're there also pretend the fad going on where distributions were brought into life with the soul purpose of copying the Aqua user experience never happened. I've also told you many times around that I totally agree with there are in fact a few larger distributions, like Ubuntu, which thankfully went their own way and successfully implemented their own look 'n' feel. Which is probably one of the many reasons why they are in fact successful. For whatever reason you always ignore the latter and merely focus on the former. The only ammunition you have are personal attacks.

I never once mentioned any about Gnome and OSX elements being copied. Go back and check again please. As for LA LA land, yes Neo, "welcome long standing citizen". And around what? You've told me around what? show me where please. I didn't want to make it personal, but when you come into every damn thread and simply spout nonsense for the sake of sounding smart, well now kinda gets on my nerves; it generally detracts from the real opinions being expressed. Gnome isn't copying OSX and trying to pass it off , you're statements are false and directed at devaluaving something which you don't understand. This isn't about OSX, its about linux shells and comments derived from the linux desktop experience, not once again OSX.

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javagreen

I guess that very much depends on how developers implement it and more importantly how it's being presented. The Ubuntu team claimed something along the lines of the following: We personally came up with a brand new feature where you can now search for a certain Menu Bar command and the command will automatically pop-up. Isn't that amazing and handy? They even went as far as taking the OS X Menu Bar as an example of how antiquated all the other operating systems were. In all their smugness they neglected to mention OS X has had this exact feature since the first OS X Tiger Developer Preview dating all the way back in 2004.

So yeah, when you're doing it like that you're bound to raise a few eyebrows. That said, these practices aren't limited to Linux developers alone.

Hmm, this part I did not know, and if the Ubuntu devs have indeed done that, then it's definitely wrong (claiming they did this first).

However, I still feel there's nothing wrong with implementing it the way they have, unless Apple has patented it (the actual method of accessing said command). If they haven't, it's their loss.. nothing's stopping them from contacting the Ubuntu devs with a cease-and-desist ... which, knowing Apple, they won't think twice about doing. This is my frank opinion (stress on opinion) on this scenario - and I'd have maintained my stance if it was any other OS, not just Linux.

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.Neo

I never once mentioned any about Gnome and OSX elements being copied. Go back and check again please. As for LA LA land, yes Neo, "welcome long standing citizen". And around what? You've told me around what? show me where please. I didn't want to make it personal, but when you come into every damn thread and simply spout nonsense for the sake of sounding smart, well now kinda gets on my nerves; it generally detracts from the real opinions being expressed. Gnome isn't copying OSX and trying to pass it off , you're statements are false and directed at devaluaving something which you don't understand. This isn't about OSX, its about linux shells and comments derived from the linux desktop experience, not once again OSX.

Isn't that the biggest joke ever? You frequently make things personal, completely neglect to debate things in a normal fashion and fail to come up with any form of argumentation short of personal attacks. Point in case this thread. Beyond that I really couldn't care less about getting on your nerves for not sharing your viewpoint.

Hmm, this part I did not know, and if the Ubuntu devs have indeed done that, then it's definitely wrong (claiming they did this first).

However, I still feel there's nothing wrong with implementing it the way they have, unless Apple has patented it (the actual method of accessing said command). If they haven't, it's their loss.. nothing's stopping them from contacting the Ubuntu devs with a cease-and-desist ... which, knowing Apple, they won't think twice about doing. This is my frank opinion (stress on opinion) on this scenario - and I'd have maintained my stance if it was any other OS, not just Linux.

There absolutely isn't anything wrong with it at all. Especially since their implementation is different enough from Apple's. What is wrong is that: A) They're trying to pass it off as their own: "We can do better [than Apple/the rest]!". B) They're giving the general impression the feature is unique to Ubuntu. You can't really blame people for putting them in their place by bringing up the fact OS X has had this feature publicly since 2005. They themselves brought up the comparison with other operating systems, but then the Linux crowd becomes annoyed when others put it up for debate and an argument starts? That's strange.

Here's the read: http://www.markshutt...om/archives/939

Long story short: Things haven't changed in 30 years, but here comes Ubuntu's HUD to rock your world! Whooo!

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Knife Party

Isn't that the biggest joke ever? You frequently make things personal, completely neglect to debate things in a normal fashion and actually come up with any form of argumentation short of personal attacks. Point in case this thread. Beyond that I really couldn't care less about getting on your nerves for not sharing your viewpoint.

There isn't anything wrong with it at all and that's not what I'm saying. Especially since their implementation is different from Apple's. What is wrong is that: A) They're trying to pass it off as their own. B) They're giving the general impression their feature is unique to Ubuntu. You can't really blame people for putting them in their place by bringing up the fact OS X has had this feature publicly since 2005.

I apologise to Neowin and any other member (s) who had to read my replies of how I approached Neo, my posts were emotionally driven due to the shear amount of BS being spouted as 'facts', I sincerely do. To Neo, sorry mate, you can earn respect around here when you learn to stop being a troll for the sake of wanting to sound smart, and actually have something to say that is contributing for once to the thread, other than a bunch of wise cracks on how Gnome is copying OSX and trying to pass it off or that somehow linux desktops are all copies - with referance to you stating Gnome a copy of OSX and KDE modelled on windows..... as most would "know".... oh please.

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javagreen

There isn't anything wrong with it at all and that's not what I'm saying. Especially since their implementation is different from Apple's. What is wrong is that: A) They're trying to pass it off as their own. B) They're giving the general impression their feature is unique to Ubuntu. You can't really blame people for putting them in their place by bringing up the fact OS X has had this feature publicly since 2005.

I didn't say it's wrong that the Ubuntu devs implemented the feature, I said it's wrong that they claimed they did it first - and in that vein, you're saying the same thing I have, in my post which you quoted.

I said "it's definitely wrong that the Ubuntu devs claimed they did it first". You said (a) they're trying to pass it off as their own, which is wrong - isn't it? and (b)They're giving the general impression their feature is unique to Ubuntu, which is isn't - and therefore wrong, isn't it?

So we both agree, that Ubuntu devs claiming "we did it first" is wrong and that their feature is unique to Ubuntu, is also wrong. And you also agree with me that there's nothing wrong with Ubuntu's implementation, and that it's different from Apple's implementation?

So we agree on both points, good. Why then, were you picking on it in the first place? I also asked you about other things you were picking upon...

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.Neo

Apologies javagreen, I misread your first sentence. :)

I apologise to Neowin and any other member (s) who had to read my replies of how I approached Neo, my posts were emotionally driven due to the shear amount of BS being spouted as 'facts', I sincerely do.

This is where you go completely wrong. By no means do I try to pass off my personal views as fact. Mostly they're just that: personal views and opinions. I'm sorry for thinking this was obvious (it being a forum and all) and didn't start every single post with "In my opinion..." / "It is my view that?" / "Personally I think?", something you and some others apparently require. You can earn some respect when you manage keeping your emotions in check and have a normal argument without immediately throwing personal attacks around.

Now that's all out of the way maybe we can move forward in a civilized fashion?

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javagreen

Apologies javagreen, I misread your first sentence. :)

It's alright, I'm just trying to get to the root of the issue :)

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Mr. Dee

Yes, there maybe many websites running Linux on the back end. At the end of the day, its 1.4 billion Windows users accessing those websites that adds the credibility. Recent stats show Linux is actually down in marketshare (still at 1%) on the desktop. The last time I checked, Facebooks over 900 million users are not running Linux.

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