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Linux, as a Whole

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firey    3,628

They said that about every windows since 95....

Naw, loved 2000, XP, wasn't a fan of Vista, but knew they were headed in a good direction, so I was super stoked when 7 was released. I used every leak of Longhorn, Vista, and 7 while they were in alpha/beta so I am 100% for moving forward. Saw the direction of 8, and the reports that 8.1 and 9 will continue down the path and my like ended there. So for me.. I'd use 7 all day every day, but once support for 7 is dropped, there's no need for me to stay with Windows, espcially if Linux continues to move forward like it has been.

So for me it was Post-7 that has made me really want to consider Linux as an alternative.

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HawkMan    5,164

since when was a standstill moving forward ? and if you mean technically and usage wise, it's moving in the same direction as Windows.

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migo    106

If you don't post in them, you haven't gone to them for support.

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farmeunit    461

It may be stereotyping, but that stereotype fits you.

Somebody reminding you to read forum rules or a wiki mean they're being jerks?

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+Majesticmerc    871

Yeah I've been to those forums

"What, you come here and ask that, didn't you read the Wiki, it's clearly described in this page on this 5000 page wiki, on this page that you can't easily find and is not at all referred to by your problem, but also fixes your problem, you should have read that page first".

not impressed.

If people are telling you that, they probably have a point. Searching Google isn't hard, and for Arch at least, the wiki entries are normally within the first five results if they have your answer (this obviously depends on your Google-fu though).

I know that on occasion the Arch forums can be sort of hostile to people who ask a question that's answered on the Wiki, but that's normally because the Wiki should be the first place you look. Seriously, it even says it in beginners guide AND the install guide:

The community-maintained Arch wiki is an excellent resource and should be consulted for issues first.

And then again in the Arch FAQ:

Q) I am a complete GNU/Linux beginner. Should I use Arch?

A) This question has had much debate. Arch is targeted more towards advanced GNU/Linux users, but some people feel that Arch is a good place to start for the motivated novice. If you are a beginner and want to use Arch, just be warned that you must be willing to invest significant time into learning a new system, as well as accept the fact that Arch is fundamentally designed as a DIY (Do-It-Yourself) distribution. It is the user who assembles the system and controls what it will become. Before asking for help, do your own independent research by Googling, searching the forum (and reading the rest of these FAQs) and searching the superb documentation provided by the Arch Wiki. There is a reason these resources were made available to you in the first place. Many thousands of volunteered hours have been spent compiling this excellent information.

Recommended reading: The Arch Linux Beginners' Guide.

Q) Arch requires too much time and effort to install and use. Also, the community keeps telling me to RTFM in so many words

A) Arch is designed for and used by a specifically targeted user base. Perhaps it is not right for you. See the above.

It's mentioned in three separate places. If you still insist on asking for answers to well documented questions, you're going to get frowned upon. It's worth noting that this is true of life just as much as Linux. All that said, how many times have we seen links like this here on Neowin? How is that any different from "RTFM"?

In my experience, people who ask stupid questions get condescending answers. People who have run exhausted all other options will normally get great help. I've posted a couple of times on the Arch forums, after consulting El-Google, the wiki and searching the forums, and they were nothing but helpful. Reading terminal output, helping with commands, etc.

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firey    3,628

since when was a standstill moving forward ? and if you mean technically and usage wise, it's moving in the same direction as Windows.

If you think Linux is at a standstill, you are very much wrong. There is crazy development going on to make Linux easier to use. There is countless forks and mods to applications to give users complete control over their Install. Yes, windows is ahead of linux in that front (sans forks and customization on the level of linux), so linux is doing a lot of catch up. I think in the past bit linux has, in terms of moving forward, done more than MS has with windows.

If you don't post in them, you haven't gone to them for support.

Yes, I have gone to them for support, and no I don't have to post to find my answer. Just like I can google a programming problem, find 15 places with a solution and I don't have to post to get the solution I need. Same thing goes for this. But I mean, you seem very intelligent so I must be mistaken with MY OWN ACTIONS.

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f0rk_b0mb    698

http://www.internetw...s.com/stats.htm

Latest data of total worldwide internet users: 2,405,518,376. that means 1% is 24 055 183. Not exactly hundreds of million.

Now let's see out of the 2 400 million est. windows users, the biggest selling FPS franchise, CoD sells like 5 millions. that means it sold to roughly 0.2% of windows users. assuming the same percentage applies to linux it'd sell a whopping 48 000. yeah, that'd be totally worth it ;)

ps I give no guarantee my math is correct :p

All the sites I go to it's between 3 - 4.9% of people use linux. http://news.siduction.org/2012/04/linux-and-the-tenacious-1-myth/

I stand corrected on the hundres of millions thing tho. I'm horible at math so...lol. :p I'm sure if we get some AAA titles on Linux it would drive more people to consider useing Linux as their main OS.

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migo    106

Somebody reminding you to read forum rules or a wiki mean they're being jerks?

When it comes to a newbie, yes. They're having problems, they don't know what they're doing or where to start. Throwing the book at them means you're a jerk.

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Brandon H    1,483

When it comes to a newbie, yes. They're having problems, they don't know what they're doing or where to start. Throwing the book at them means you're a jerk.

i'm sorry but NO, that's not how things tend to work .... anywhere in the world, not just the world of linux

if you're not even willing to try and look in the places provided to you first, why should anyone give you sympathy? especially when the places specifically say, "check here and here first, if you still can't find an answer then feel free to come ask in the forums"

tl:dr all in all it's called common sense, you should try it once in awhile

because the only one coming off as a jerk here is you

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Lord Method Man    1,613

http://en.wikipedia....erating_systems

W3Counter and Wikimedia seems to disagree with that article, and they're not having either MS or Apple as clients ;)

Linux apologists have, for years, tried every excuse in the book to 'disprove' the statistical and numerical fact about Linux usage.

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f0rk_b0mb    698

http://en.wikipedia....erating_systems

W3Counter and Wikimedia seems to disagree with that article, and they're not having either MS or Apple as clients ;)

We can disagree and exchange links with each other all day. I think we can safely say Linux usage is at 2%

Linux apologists have, for years, tried every excuse in the book to 'disprove' the statistical and numerical fact about Linux usage.

All Linux enthusiast are well aware we are a minority. It drives me nuts when people say "You are a minority, therefore your OS sucks and you don't deserve AAA software titles". Personally, I will pay up to $20 extra for a ported piece of software.

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HawkMan    5,164

1.75% at the best of days it seems like ;p

But close enough

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migo    106

i'm sorry but NO, that's not how things tend to work .... anywhere in the world, not just the world of linux

if you're not even willing to try and look in the places provided to you first, why should anyone give you sympathy? especially when the places specifically say, "check here and here first, if you still can't find an answer then feel free to come ask in the forums"

tl:dr all in all it's called common sense, you should try it once in awhile

because the only one coming off as a jerk here is you

It's not common sense. People with lots of experience in a field are often completely detached from what it's like to be a complete newbie. And that's the problem. You can try whatever justifications you like, but you're just trying to justify being a jerk to yourself, and you're part of Linux's problem. Unless of course you want Linux to be relegated to the lower single digits of market share.

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Brandon H    1,483

It's not common sense. People with lots of experience in a field are often completely detached from what it's like to be a complete newbie. And that's the problem. You can try whatever justifications you like, but you're just trying to justify being a jerk to yourself, and you're part of Linux's problem. Unless of course you want Linux to be relegated to the lower single digits of market share.

so it's not common sense to use the sources provided to you anymore

boy that is a sad sad word, which honestly is coming to pass as people become more and more lazy :/

so you say I'm just trying to justify being a jerk, aside from finding you the rude one for unjustifiably calling me a jerk, you are just as much trying to justify people being lazy

newbie or not, if you don't know how to use the sources provided to you then you need to go back to school, you may find me coming off as a jerk but that's the cold honest truth

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migo    106

if you don't know how to use the sources provided to you

That is the attitude that keeps the linux community small and insignificant.

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HawkMan    5,164

That is the problem, the elitist we are beter than thou attitude from the linux communities. Sure it would be nice if some noob would have checked the wiki, and that he woudl have found that wiki article that isn't at all that easy to find for a newbie who doesn't know the terms or what he's supposed to search for.

But, because the noob didn't search or didn't find it when he searched, doesn't mean you should instantly answer him with "GTFO Noob RTFM", "Search the Wiki", "It's in the FU#?ING WIKI!". no even if the user is being a dumb idiot, you politely tell him to fix it, it would take you just as long to be polite and link him to the correct wiki and maybe explain it to him as it would telling him he's a dumb idiot. the difference is that one of them turns the person away from linux forever, the other one gets you a new users, who will over time learn the terms and learn how to search the wiki and will be able to help other people with the same problems and be able to teach them the terms and how to search.

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Yogurtmaster    210

I really find it hard to be in Linux threads anymore.

Stop comparing Linux to Windows and Mac, that is a big mistake. Linux can be quality and it can run software that is also quality.

I use windows mainly but I also use Linux because it is free. I use it in my VM to test things.

Stop trying to put down Linux or Windows/Mac. It's really not intelligent to do this. You use tools and use the ones you need.

Stop trying to turn the thread into something it's not.

Also, if you know something about Linux then share what you know and don't be a snob. Nobody loves a person who is a snob. Help other people out and maybe they might think that "People who love Linux are not all that bad."

I feel like I have to be like a parent on this thread. Knock it off and help people. Be a part of the solution.

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Nashy    1,364

I don't understand dual booting Windows and Linux. Make a choice. It just seems like a ###### to have both. Everything you can do in Linux can be done in Windows. And chances are, you won't have to Google to get it to work in Windows.

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-T-    654

Based upon the initial posting in this thread, I figured I'd give Ubuntu 12.10 x64 a try, my SuSe setup works fine but I spend most of my time in Windows. I downloaded the iso, made a bootable USB and got started on the install.

So far so good, a bit of graphical corruption during the install process, I figured was no big deal. Install completed, rebooted and right into the desktop, which is nice. After setting up my ubuntu one account and the various other social media things to get the most of it, I figured I'd update my nVidia drivers. Now every time I've used Linux, I've been scared of this step, as it more often than not, fails. Using the Ubuntu Software Centre, I selected the "tested" nvidia current drivers, and then restarted X to load the new drivers. This as always was a disaster. Upon logging in to the desktop, I no longer had Unity, I recall this happening in 12.04 also, but hoped it'd be fixed by now. Needless to say fixing this involved loading a terminal, removing the drivers, downloading the kernel source and the headers and trying again. This did work, but what a massive pain in the ass which shows that no matter how pretty they make the OS, it's just a clusterbomb of not quite right.

Add to this a ridiculous default mouse scrolling speed with no option to change it in the OS, and you're left with a rather unpleasant experience. I've been in Ubuntu now for 3 hours, I've installed most of my software that I'd use, I've typed my password about a thousand times already, which makes me wish I'd chosen a different one. I've no resolution to the mouse scroll speed issue, apart from to unplug it and plug it back in, my audio is missing the centre channel of my 5.1 speakers, and therefore most of my hd movies have no dialog, and the subwoofer doesn't work either, so anything with bass is flatter. The dual monitor support is very peculiar as even by default my mouse would often stick between the two displays, the font rendering is not very nice to look at and appears blurred.

I'm so disappointed in this release as I was excited by the Ubuntu phone, and thought I could use the desktop version quite nicely to go alongside it, but as of yet, it's still just too much hassle

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Karl L.    275

I don't understand dual booting Windows and Linux. Make a choice. It just seems like a ###### to have both. Everything you can do in Linux can be done in Windows. And chances are, you won't have to Google to get it to work in Windows.

I agree with you in principal, but not entirely in specifics. It is tedious to have to maintain two OS installations when you can only use one at a time. Inevitably you will end up spending more time in one than the other; so why not remove the lesser used one? Since there is some software that is platform-specific, dual-booting may makes sense in some cases. For example, I can only run Battlefront II in Windows, but I can only run kpartx in Linux. That said, while I dual-booted for years so I could play games, I eventually decided it was too much of a hassle to maintain for the couple of hours I used it each week and removed my native Windows installation.

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REM2000    136

That is the problem, the elitist we are beter than thou attitude from the linux communities. Sure it would be nice if some noob would have checked the wiki, and that he woudl have found that wiki article that isn't at all that easy to find for a newbie who doesn't know the terms or what he's supposed to search for.

But, because the noob didn't search or didn't find it when he searched, doesn't mean you should instantly answer him with "GTFO Noob RTFM", "Search the Wiki", "It's in the FU#?ING WIKI!". no even if the user is being a dumb idiot, you politely tell him to fix it, it would take you just as long to be polite and link him to the correct wiki and maybe explain it to him as it would telling him he's a dumb idiot. the difference is that one of them turns the person away from linux forever, the other one gets you a new users, who will over time learn the terms and learn how to search the wiki and will be able to help other people with the same problems and be able to teach them the terms and how to search.

Ive seen this reply to plenty of people in the Windows, Mac and Programming sections, it's human nature to want instant gratification.

I don't think there's any harm or an elitest attitude to try and push people to be more self reliant, it's easy to keep throwing questions however some searching online generally brings the answer up, if not then a question is justified, if someone has done a search, asks a question and then is called names or the topic detracts then i would draw the line, however as ive said above this happens in all sections.

Linux is a good OS and is changing the world around us, it's massively impressive that scientists and other researchers can quickly get the tools they need to help with their task without having to spend lots of cash or wait upon a single vendor, just look CERN utilizing OpenStack for the LHC.

However drilling this down to the desktop level, i think Linux has come ahead leaps and bounds, i can download the majority of distros and install these pretty much trouble free on a range of hardware, ive installed Ubuntu and Mint on various laptops and they have worked out of the box (MSI U35DX netbook and HP Laptop, can't remember the model on that one pavilion something or other).

As mentioned above i think the problem that some people have with Linux is that they try and use it like Windows or Mac's, when i switched from Windows to a Mac, there was a learning curve as i had to get used to the Mac way of doing things, i can only provide the Window model as one example MDI/SDI however there were lots of small things that i had to get used to and change the way i interacted with the computer, the same can be said for Linux.

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HawkMan    5,164

I don't understand dual booting Windows and Linux. Make a choice. It just seems like a ###### to have both. Everything you can do in Linux can be done in Windows. And chances are, you won't have to Google to get it to work in Windows.

dual booting never made sense to me after visualization became such a good and viable solution with proper hardware support. I did dual booting when I was younger and in school, but then I realized I always had to boot into windows and booting back and forth never made sense, it took time, and then I needed something in windows and I had to reboot into windows. so since I could do everything in windows, why would I boo into linux at all then...with virtualization you can do everything in windows and still play around with linux all the time.

Ive seen this reply to plenty of people in the Windows, Mac and Programming sections, it's human nature to want instant gratification.

There's a difference. for linux the forum/community is the first and sometimes only line of support.

for windows. forums are for people who can't call their "free" tech support. and anyone who buys a computer today has free tech support for 1-2 years at least. the ones who don't get this is those who buy an OEM license for their own computer, or who did an unsupported upgrade for their computer, and if you did this then you better know what you're doing, or if you had someone else do it for you, then he's your support, the person who installs OEM licenses on a computer is also the one required to support it.

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ichi    356

Admittedly I don't use to browse Linux forums, but sometimes I've had to Google something and found a forum thread in the results, yet I don't recall ever seeing people being rude with the OP :ermm: then again I might not read the whole thread but even if some people were impolite the overall tone seems to be friendly.

I mean, I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, but it seems to me that tagging the Linux community as rude or elitist is an overstatement.

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TDT    280

Yeah, you get the people who say, "Why switch?", "Linux isn't compatible", "It looks ugly". With a little know how, you can do anything in Linux, in some cases more, than you can do in Windows.

Uhmm, no, you cannot. Certainly not more, and not even the same things you can do in Windows, if we're talking about quality. And this is about software again. Why should I try to find alternatives that are far less good than the real Windows apps, why should I spend hours looking over forums and trying to make Wine run some Windows app that I need? I'm not saying it's Linux at fault about this, but people don't care WHY there are so few good apps on both platforms. They only see that Linux doesn't have Photoshop, or Ableton, or whatever app that they use on Windows. And while I agree that there are alternatives for some apps (even better than the Windows ones), you just can't find alternatives for everything. At least not alternatives that give you the same results.

Also, as some people said before, there's the drivers issue. Audio drivers in Linux are pure crap to begin with. Then there's the problem with games - Steam won't be the answer that some people see "over the rainbow". Not everyone uses Steam and not everyone plays only Steam games. Yes, it's a start, but it's already 2013. :)

Anyway, I don't hate Linux, or Windows, or whatever OS. I find it quite challenging after the first install but, as someone else said a few pages back, after you "make it pretty", then what? :)

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