Big Gun Control Debate


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Aethec
How many times have you gone through the process? Guns aren't given away.

If guns weren't given away, how can people like Holmes buy some?

I doubt criminals would hesitate to break another crime. Also, your logic is a great reason to keep pot illegal. We must be stopping a lot of people keeping it illegal.

They're not criminals. That's my point. They're would-be criminals, but they haven't done anything yet. The more effort they have to do and the more laws they have to break to commit a crime, the less likely they are to do so.

Guns DO prevent crime. Let's look at extremes. How many mass shootings do you see at gun shows? ZERO. I've been to several gun shows lately. I've stood in lines long enough to think we were waiting on the iPhone7. Most in line had AK-47s, AR-15s, class 3 machine guns, pistols, you name it.

If everyone has a gun they can reach, yes, maybe they do. Does everyone have a gun in their hand when you're in the street? No. Stop over-generalizing.

Now how many mass shootings where guns are illegal (schools, theaters, malls)? Want more proof that controlling guns aren't the answer? See the case study of Switzerland. If you're between the ages of 20 and 30, you're issued a machinegun as part of their militia. They have very low gun crime. THEY HAVE MACHINE GUNS IN THEIR CLOSETS!

As I've already said, having a big country where guns are legal and then banning guns in a few places does not work.

But how many mass shootings where guns are illegal in the entire country? When was the last time we heard about ten people getting killed at the same time in an European country? A long, long time ago.

In Switzerland, not everyone has a gun (you can refuse it), and it's an assault rifle, not a machine gun (SIG SG 550, also known as Fass 90). Also, it is forbidden to go outside with it, unless you are currently working in the military, in uniform. I live in Switzerland; I've seen a few soldiers in uniform wearing their weapons, but never, ever a normal person with a gun. Ever. It just doesn't happen. And if it did, that person would very quickly be arrested by a police officer. Yet gun crime is a non-issue. How come there aren't criminals with illegal guns committing crimes everywhere?

How effective were the police in these mass shootings? God bless our men in blue, but they're not everywhere. Well trained CHL owners can fill those gaps. Look at where the crime happens, it isn't in rural territories, it's urban.

I grew up in the midwest where about half of the high school students had rifle racks in their back window with at least one high power deer rifle and usually a smaller rabbit gun. During quail season we had shotguns. We parked our trucks right outside the school in the school lot. No one even thought about shooting someone or the guns being a hazard.

What's the difference between then and now? It's not the guns. It's the culture. In my town we had more churches than bars. We played more sports than Xbox. If you were down on your luck, you ran a tab for a month at the grocery store and the feed store. Maybe it's time we focus on what's changed in our culture instead of what hasn't.

As usual, this kind of "the guns aren't dangerous" mentality can only be broken when a crime occurs. There have already been plenty of schootings at high schools...but everyone thinks that it'll never happen to them.

PS: If you want to answer to my message above, quote it in its entirety, not just a few selected parts.

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Cute James
...

Very well said.

Post of the week.

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threetonesun

What's the difference between then and now? It's not the guns. It's the culture. In my town we had more churches than bars. We played more sports than Xbox. If you were down on your luck, you ran a tab for a month at the grocery store and the feed store. Maybe it's time we focus on what's changed in our culture instead of what hasn't.

This. Isolation in society is at an all time high, and it's even more hurtful for those on the fringe psychologically.

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Jason S.

Perhaps my math is off-base here, but let me try this anyway.

Number of households in the US, as of 2010 --> 114,800,000

Percent of households estimated to have guns as of 2012 --> 32%

Number of households with guns, as of 2012, assuming there are 115,000,000 --> 36,800,000

Number of "mass murders", according to Mother Jones article, since 1982 --> 58

Percent of gun-owning households that committed a mass murder since 1982 --> .00000157%

So what, you say?

Number of gun-related murders in US in 2010 --> 8,775

Assuming 8,775 is 1-per-household - percent of households committing murder in 2010 --> .000238%

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Bryan R.

I'd just like to clarify what I believe everyone agrees with but hardly anyone admits when debating: Both sides have no issue with "regulations". It's the outright ban that doesn't make any sense, whatsoever, at all. Talk about background checks, talk about waiting periods, talk about inconsistencies between individual state laws, talk about things that can actually make a difference and not hyperbole.

Perhaps my math is off-base here, but let me try this anyway.

Number of households in the US, as of 2010 --> 114,800,000

Percent of households estimated to have guns as of 2012 --> 32%

Number of households with guns, as of 2012, assuming there are 115,000,000 --> 36,800,000

Number of "mass murders", according to Mother Jones article, since 1982 --> 58

Percent of gun-owning households that committed a mass murder since 1982 --> .00000157%

So what, you say?

Number of gun-related murders in US in 2010 --> 8,775

Assuming 8,775 is 1-per-household - percent of households committing murder in 2010 --> .000238%

While those numbers may be concerning, they are vastly vague in their contexts. You have to admit that there are many more factors that have changed over the decades. How many of those were victims defending? How many were police related? How many were illegal weapons? From Mexico?

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Southern Patriot

Most gun fanatics

Perhaps if people like you would stop with the "gun nut" or "gun fanatic" insults, maybe more gun owners would listen to you.

are unable to listen to (or understand) rational arguments and facts anyway.

As are people like you. We have repeatedly posted facts and rational arguments, yet you and others like you refuse to listen to them. What works in one country (the UK for instance) doesn't always necessarily work in a vastly different country (the US). There is no logic in comparing the two. The closest REASONABLE comparison would be to compare the US to the EU, but it seems that most Europeans on Neowin can't comprehend that point.

Just stopped by after reading the title and wanted to see how many nutters will still defend America's ridiculous gun culture., and their even more redneck incorrect understanding of their own constitution

Seems to me that you are the one who doesn't understand it. The SCOTUS seems to back up that "redneck incorrect understanding" of it.

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Southern Patriot

They're not criminals. That's my point. They're would-be criminals, but they haven't done anything yet. The more effort they have to do and the more laws they have to break to commit a crime, the less likely they are to do so.

And that's the point you aren't understanding. Buying a gun from some dealer off the street takes LESS effort (and is usually cheaper) than buying one legally!

As I've already said, having a big country where guns are legal and then banning guns in a few places does not work.

But how many mass shootings where guns are illegal in the entire country? When was the last time we heard about ten people getting killed at the same time in an European country? A long, long time ago.

Uhhh, last year: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks

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Jason S.

Just stopped by after reading the title and wanted to see how many nutters will still defend America's ridiculous gun culture., and their even more redneck incorrect understanding of their own constitution

Yep, there they are, knew i wouldnt be surprised.

Personally im good with Americans getting as many guns as they want, it will just speed up the process of destroying themselves.

Honestly the last two Americans on earth will be standing there with guns trained on the other. and at the moment they both pull the trigger they will both utter the same ridiculous phrase like a petulant 3 year old "its my right"....well, yeah, to like, die ignorant.

how are we misunderstanding our constitution?

Our population seems to grow each year, so it doesnt appear that we're destroying ourselves w/ guns.

In 2010, the population was 308,745,538. And there were 8,775 gun-related murders. That's .0000284% of the population. You have a better chance of dying in a car accident than by a gun. So should we outlaw cars?

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Southern Patriot

Perhaps my math is off-base here, but let me try this anyway.

Number of households in the US, as of 2010 --> 114,800,000

Percent of households estimated to have guns as of 2012 --> 32%

Number of households with guns, as of 2012, assuming there are 115,000,000 --> 36,800,000

Number of "mass murders", according to Mother Jones article, since 1982 --> 58

Percent of gun-owning households that committed a mass murder since 1982 --> .00000157%

So what, you say?

Number of gun-related murders in US in 2010 --> 8,775

Assuming 8,775 is 1-per-household - percent of households committing murder in 2010 --> .000238%

If that wasn't so long, I'd quote it in my sig! Maybe I'll just post a link to it there if you don't mind.

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Jason S.

I just to clarify what I believe everyone agrees with but hardly anyone admits when debating: Both sides have no issue with "regulations". It's the outright ban that doesn't make any sense, whatsoever, at all. Talk about background checks, talk about waiting periods, talk about inconsistencies between individual state laws, talk about things that can actually make a difference and not hyperbole.

I agree with you here. an outright ban would only increase crime and create an even bigger black market. Whenever something is banned, it just creates more crime.

If that wasn't so long, I'd quote it in my sig! Maybe I'll just post a link to it there if you don't mind.

sure

Also, people love to get bent out of shape about any topic without ever thinking of the stats. it's not just guns, but anything. for example, if some people died on a rollercoaster, suddenly the media cries "should we ban rollercoasters!?" and "are rollercoasters safe in america!?"

It's always something else. Statistically, your chances of dying in a tornado are nil, but i can foresee the media saying "what can we do to stop the tornado pandemic!!??"

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LaP

I am not a right-winger. However, the fact is that you have to look at the overall picture here. If you look at what all of the shooters have in common, you will see that they are not right in their mind. They are "Crazy". Getting rid of guns would not solve any of those issues.

They will use Bombs or other means to get to the end resolve. Crazy people do crazy things and getting rid of guns does not solve the issue, it just makes it harder for normal folks to get guns.

You will start to see these kinds of things because our society is getting over medicated and thanks to Ronald Regan in the 80's, most of the crazies are in the streets.

But you still have to wonder why crazies and criminals kill less people per capita in other countries like UK and Canada than USA. The reason might not be easy guns access (and i don't think it is) but for sure easy guns access is not an effective way to reduce the murders per capita.

The murders per capita of the USA is not as bad as some people say it is. But when you check the countries over the USA in the list you have to ask yourself some question at least.

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Tender Foot

Wait... so because it's a left leaning site, right-wingers are just going to outright deny the facts because the facts disagree with them?

Wow, what ignorance.

The same can said for the left and the site you got these so called facts from, nice try! The fact is Guns in the United States are regulated by the federal, state, and local authorities. Another fact for you, With the powerful National Rifle Association lobbyist any more tougher gun regulations will be long & hard fight before if anything is passed.

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Southern Patriot

But you still have to wonder why crazies and criminals kill less people per capita in other countries like UK and Canada than USA.

Difference in mental health or doctor/patient confidentiality laws maybe? It seems that it would have made a difference in the Colorado shooting at least. I'm not sure about the involuntary commitment procedures in those countries, but in recent decades, the laws in the US have made this much more difficult. And hell, it's quite possible that we have a higher percentage of nuts and criminals running the streets here, for whatever reason. Since many crimes (gun crimes in particular) are in some way drug related, we probably also need to look at difference in drug use and/or accessibility in the different countries. Gangs as well are a factor. Most gangs in the US probably make gangs in the UK look like Girl Scouts in comparison.

Point being that availability of guns is NOT the only factor.

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Biotoxic_hazard_835

Just another thread to give the "I support guns/I hate guns" crowds ammunition to keep shooting at each other here in the forums. This goes beyond guns and regulations, it is a matter of values and the fact that people are going coo coo because of many problems and some just because they have been raised with a poisoned mind. The fact here is that this incidents are going to keep on happening whether you like it or not. You just have to stop and think, do I want to be one of the ones crawling on the floor in fear waiting to be killed or do I want to be one who can take a shot at my assailant and even the odds by having a gun to defend myself with ?

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Azies

Just another thread to give the "I support guns/I hate guns" crowds ammunition to keep shooting at each other here in the forums. This goes beyond guns and regulations, it is a matter of values and the fact that people are going coo coo because of many problems and some just because they have been raised with a poisoned mind. The fact here is that this incidents are going to keep on happening whether you like it or not. You just have to stop and think, do I want to be one of the ones crawling on the floor in fear waiting to be killed or do I want to be one who can take a shot at my assailant and even the odds by having a gun to defend myself with ?

You have a good point, honestly, the case should be that if someone so much as flashes a gun in a public gathering, or public building, they're getting a bullet in the head. Is that what needs to be done?

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Southern Patriot
What is it going to take? How many more people need to die before we regulate these guns?

What is it going to take? How many more people need to die before we regulate these cars? Cars kill an order of magnitude more people in the US than guns!

edit: seems you removed that part from your post before I finished this post.

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Bryan R.
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Azies

What is it going to take? How many more people need to die before we regulate these cars? Cars kill an order of magnitude more people in the US than guns!

edit: seems you removed that part from your post before I finished this post.

Huge difference there though, you can't bring a gun to a movie theater and shoot people with it, you can't bring a gun to a church and shoot people with it. I can't believe you're actually defending the guys right to murder people.

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Tender Foot

Azies, on 08 August 2012 - 10:37, said:

What is it going to take? How many more people need to die before we regulate these guns?

How many people need to die before regulate alcohol, cars, posion, dumb people? the list goes on

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Aethec
Perhaps if people like you would stop with the "gun nut" or "gun fanatic" insults, maybe more gun owners would listen to you.

People who unrationnaly have fixations on stuff are fanatics.

You went so far as to include gun-related language in your signature. We're in a computer forum. You are a fanatic.

As are people like you. We have repeatedly posted facts and rational arguments, yet you and others like you refuse to listen to them. What works in one country (the UK for instance) doesn't always necessarily work in a vastly different country (the US). There is no logic in comparing the two. The closest REASONABLE comparison would be to compare the US to the EU, but it seems that most Europeans on Neowin can't comprehend that point.

Sure, let's compare the U.S. to the EU.

List of countries by intentional homicide rate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Northern America: 3.9 per 100k

Nothern, Southern and Western Europe: 1.5, 1.1 and 1.0 per 100k respectively.

...well, looks like that wasn't a good idea after all.

And that's the point you aren't understanding. Buying a gun from some dealer off the street takes LESS effort (and is usually cheaper) than buying one legally!

I'm talking about it from a psychological point of view. Having to commit multiple crimes just so you can get a gun *will* discourage most people from doing it. That's psychology 101. Read my other posts.

Depends on your definition of Europe, but since you want to compare the US and the EU, it doesn't count since Norway isn't in the EU.

I live in Switzerland; the last deadly shooting I heard of was Mohammed Merah's in France, a would-be terrorist who killed seven people including soldiers and wounded 6. The Aurora shooting killed 12 people and wounded dozens. Not exactly the same scale, huh.

Remember the shooting that almost got Rep. Giffords killed? She was the shooter's main target. The guy just decided he would kill her. He went to a gun store, bought a gun (and lied about his drug-related problems), and went on to kill her. Seems normal to you?

Tell me...what benefit do you get from owning a gun, that you wouldn't get if gun ranges allowed you to rent or buy guns and use them there?

Is it worth the lives of thousands of people?

Remember, "being able to defend myself" is not an answer - it's obvious that the countries in which you can't do that have less murders.

What is it going to take? How many more people need to die before we regulate these cars? Cars kill an order of magnitude more people in the US than guns!

Cars are not made to kill people, guns are. Stop using that stupid argument, it's been proven wrong dozens of times.

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KingCracker

Do I even want to comment in this thread? No not really but to show my support for the 2A here it is. Aethec the people you call fanatics are hobbyist just like the majority of people on this forum are hobbyist of the tech/computer world. Are you a hacker? Do you make cracking programs? Do you make and send virus's? Do you steal peoples credit card information. Because you know if you're heavily into computers you must be out to do harm.. Don't infringe on my rights as long as i'm not hurting anyone. This isn't about guns its about liberty. I support the right for anyone to do whatever it is they do so long as its not hurting anyone. Want to own a gun? Go for it, want to own a race car? go for it, want to do drugs? Go for it. Do what you want as long as your not hurting anyone. By taking away the things I enjoy it takes my ability to pursue happiness. As long as i'm not hurting you or anyone else let me be!

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Bryan R.

People who unrationnaly have fixations on stuff are fanatics.

You went so far as to include gun-related language in your signature. We're in a computer forum. You are a fanatic.

[...]

I'm talking about it from a psychological point of view. Having to commit multiple crimes just so you can get a gun *will* discourage most people from doing it. That's psychology 101. Read my other posts.

[...]

Depends on your definition of Europe, but since you want to compare the US and the EU, it doesn't count since Norway isn't in the EU.

[...]

Tell me...what benefit do you get from owning a gun, that you wouldn't get if gun ranges allowed you to rent or buy guns and use them there?

Is it worth the lives of thousands of people?

Remember, "being able to defend myself" is not an answer - it's obvious that the countries in which you can't do that have less murders.

[...]

Cars are not made to kill people, guns are. Stop using that stupid argument, it's been proven wrong dozens of times.

From a psychological point of view, you have a superiority complex.

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Tender Foot

Cars are not made to kill people, guns are. Stop using that stupid argument, it's been proven wrong dozens of times.

Wrong guns are not made just to kill people, their are plenty of legit uses for guns not for killing people, hunting & sport shooting. More people die every single day from car wrecks & drunk drivers more so than from getting shot from a gun, guns are the same as cars they are tools, people kill people!

We mise well start chopping off babies hands at birth so they can't pull a trigger on a gun, drive a car etc when they grow up. :rofl:

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Southern Patriot
I can't believe you're actually defending the guys right to murder people.

Seriously, where in the **** did I do that? Never mind, I'll never see your potentially idiotic reply, welcome to my ignore list, along with Aethec.

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Azies

Ok, well after thinking a bit, watching that video, here is where I stand at this.. and it's drastically different from what I came into this thinking. This nation is in a state of civil war, you might disagree with me, you might say, "Oh no it's not, herp da derp" but it is. I know it's a drastic 180 turn, but I saw that video and it made a valid point. People are going to have guns, they're going to murder people left and right and so on, so saying "oh we must regulate guns and take them off the street", that probably won't matter to the people who still have guns or get guns. Another argument is, "what have you got to be afraid of?" in response to posts made my DocM and Roadwarrior, and so on. They have a lot of be afraid of, because like it or not, the amount of guns and gun violence in this country, satisfies the definition for a civil war. They're afraid that someone is going to come up to them and kill them, and their family, that is what they're afraid of. I consider myself to be a left leaning moderate, and I might take a huge lurch to the right and become a right leaning moderate now, but I support people's rights to carry arms now.

Despite the fact that the guy who murdered those six people at the Sikh temple in Wisconsin got his gun legally, if there had been a gun owner there, I bet you he wouldn't have killed as many. You can debate this all you want, but that's the truth of the situation, all it would've taken was one guy with a gun that wanted to end the shooter's violence.

Don't get me wrong, I believe strongly that the extreme right's culture of violence and death are the reasons behind this second American civil war, and again, it's a civil war, it might not be as violent as Syria, Libya, or Iraq, and it might not be Civi versus Military, or Civi versus Government, but it's Civi versus Civi. Look at Chicago, Baltimore, Detroit, hell even Salisbury, where I heard automatic machine pistol fire once as a random "gangsta" shot up a person's house in the middle of the night just cause they didn't look at them right, or the raid on a house in a suburban neighborhood that netted $80,000 worth of weapons, ammunition, and drugs.

So yeah, I see where they're coming from now, DocM, Roadwarrior and the other gun supporters are not violent extremists like I originally thought, they're doing what I would want to do in this time of turmoil, protect their family, at all costs, I would do the same, instantly. So we need to end this discussion, it's too late, guns aren't going to go anywhere, so you have two choices, you lay on the ground quivering and hoping you don't die in a shooting, or you bring a gun, and make the other guy regret the day he planned that murderous rampage.

So for all the gun rights advocates that I've spit venom at in the past, I apologize, I can honestly say I understand now, and I'm joining in right there with you.

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