Big Gun Control Debate


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willgill

Seriously? In that case, why are certain kinds of drugs banned in America? Why do you even have speeding laws? Why are there a whole plethora of criminal liability laws?

You're absolutely full of it.

Unlike drugs, guns have many positive uses.
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KingCracker

Charlie Daniels said it best when he sang, I'm the kind of man that wouldn't harm a mouse but if I catch someone breaking into my house I got a 12 gauge shotgun waiting on the other side. So don't go pushing me against my will, I don't want to have to fight you but I darn sure will, you don't want trouble then you better just pass me on by. My sentiment exactly. Don't try to do me harm and I won't do it to you.Treat me like you would like to be treated.

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Tender Foot

Seriously? In that case, why are certain kinds of drugs banned in America? Why do you even have speeding laws? Why are there a whole plethora of criminal liability laws?

You're absolutely full of it.

You act like things aren't banned in your country which I'm sure there are plenty of things. Get off your high horse and people are starting to sick and tierd of your blantant ignorance and you act like your country is so perfect and guess what it's not by any means. You must have issues to put other countries down constantly so your country looks better in your eyes so you can feel better about yourself/country.

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Southern Patriot

Charlie Daniels said it best when he sang, I'm the kind of man that wouldn't harm a mouse but if I catch someone breaking into my house I got a 12 gauge shotgun waiting on the other side. So don't go pushing me against my will, I don't want to have to fight you but I darn sure will, you don't want trouble then you better just pass me on by. My sentiment exactly. Don't try to do me harm and I won't do it to you.Treat me like you would like to be treated.

I love his music and share a lot of his views. I had the pleasure of meeting him before a concert a few years back. Really nice guy.

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seta-san

from the comments on the OPS link

This is counting from 1980, before which (and after which) the Wikipedia list is probably very inaccurate.

It looks like you should stay out of Finland - or go there heavily armed. 5 million people and 3 listed incidents. The US, with 300 million people only had 18. That's 1 per 16..17 million people. And people think Americans are crazy.

The UK beats the US at 1 per 12 million people. Gad! The place is overrun by gun nuts.

Norway slaughters the US. They got 1 from their paltry 5 million people. So, maybe it's the latitude that causes these mass murders. Ban Northern latitudes!

But wait! Germany? Pffft. Only 2 out of 80 million. What's with that country? No crazies?

Switzerland has 1 for their 8 million people. But everyone there packs heat, so you'd expect them to score high on mass murderers, right?

Finally, Australia and New Zealand both have the US beat. Oz posted 2 for 23 million, oddly similar to the home country. And the Kiwis? 1 from 4 or 5 million. But, can you blame them? Beautiful scenery only goes so far.

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Gerowen

http://www.motherjon...s-shootings-map

I've seen right-wingers on here repeat the same talking point on guns over and over here. 'Gun regulation is dumb because most of the mass shooters obtain their firearms illegally anyway'

The facts are in and it shows that's wrong.

You are wrong, and so is this article. Guns are here and they aren't going away. Regulation already exists. Every time I buy a gun, even though I have no criminal record and am active duty military, I still have to fill out a couple pages of paperwork and submit to an FBI check over the telephone, and that's just because I have a concealed pistol license for this state. When I bought my first pistol and didn't have one, I had to pay for the weapon and then wait 5-10 business days for a more thorough background check. If you want to run a legitimate gun store you have to pay exorbitant fees to acquire and maintain a federal firearms license, and you may even get turned down for your FFL.

You've got your regulation, if you have such a problem with gun ownership, move to a country that doesn't allow it, or do your part in making sure that the laws currently in place actually get enforced, and leave the rest of us alone.

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Southern Patriot

from the comments on the OPS link

And THAT is the reason that I think it is beyond idiotic to compare the US to any SINGLE European country. It is FAR more logical and accurate to compare it to the EU as a whole. By area and population, the US dwarfs most other countries, other than China and India on population (with Indonesia close behind), and Russia, Canada and China on area (with Brazil and Australia close behind).

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Aethec

While we're at it...roadwarrior, your signatures contains yet another variation of "Saying that gun owners want to kill everyone is like saying that [something that's not made to kill] owners want to commit crimes".

You pro-gun advocates really have trouble understanding why owning a gun is not the same thing as owning a shoe or a computer, huh...

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seta-san

While we're at it...roadwarrior, your signatures contains yet another variation of "Saying that gun owners want to kill everyone is like saying that [something that's not made to kill] owners want to commit crimes".

You pro-gun advocates really have trouble understanding why owning a gun is not the same thing as owning a shoe or a computer, huh...

yeah. allowing liberals to have things like pens computers is far more dangerous than a bubba redneck a gun.

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Southern Patriot

While we're at it...roadwarrior, your signatures contains yet another variation of "Saying that gun owners want to kill everyone is like saying that [something that's not made to kill] owners want to commit crimes".

You pro-gun advocates really have trouble understanding why owning a gun is not the same thing as owning a shoe or a computer, huh...

A tool with many legitimate uses that also can be used to commit a crime. Yes, I do fail to see a difference. Unfortunately, you stubbornly refuse to understand that guns have more uses than just murder. I can't do anything about your refusal to accept that fact.

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Noir Angel

yeah. allowing liberals to have things like pens computers is far more dangerous than a bubba redneck a gun.

No more dangerous than giving the fascists on the other side bibles and guns.

A tool with many legitimate uses that also can be used to commit a crime. Yes, I do fail to see a difference. Unfortunately, you stubbornly refuse to understand that guns have more uses than just murder. I can't do anything about your refusal to accept that fact.

Guns are designed to kill things, their other uses are secondary. That's what they are, they are weapons. A car isn't a weapon, a shop isn't a weapon.

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KingCracker

No more dangerous than giving the fascists on the other side bibles and guns.

Guns are designed to kill things, their other uses are secondary. That's what they are, they are weapons. A car isn't a weapon, a shop isn't a weapon.

That's all you ever say. They are designed to kill, they are designed to kill.No they are designed to fire a projectile out of the barrel. They only kill when in the hands of bad people. You are trying your hardest to demonize guns but its not working. Guns do nothing on their own..Javik you'll never convince me or any gun owner here that its a good idea to give up our guns, so you might as well stop trying to demonize us. If a person is good person before they owned a gun they'll be a good person after they're a gun owner. Telling me guns are bad and evil and only designed to kill does nothing to further your point of view, it just makes you look na?ve. You don't know anything about guns and you certainly don't know how the majority of gun owners act with their firearms. 8000 deaths 8000 deaths you scream, many of those are from illegally owned guns and police shootings. Plus 90 million gun owners and the number grows every day..You are so na?ve to think that most gun owners go around waving their guns looking for trouble you are so far from the truth its not even funny. Keep continuing to spew hateful and na?ve remarks though and i'll just face palm even more.

post-435544-0-73012400-1344698454.jpg

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Southern Patriot

Definition of a gun:

gun ? ?[guhn] noun, verb, gunned, gun?ning.

noun

1.a weapon consisting of a metal tube, with mechanical attachments, from which projectiles are shot by the force of an explosive; a piece of ordnance.

2.any portable firearm, as a rifle, shotgun, or revolver.

3.a long-barreled cannon having a relatively flat trajectory.

4.any device for shooting something under pressure: a paint gun; a staple gun.

5.Slang . a person whose profession is killing; professional killer: a gangland gun.

Hmmm, the only part of that definiton that even references killing is the slang term at the end. So much for the idea that "guns are designed to kill". If that were the case, it would be in the definition, don't you think?

Also, this one from Wiktionary:

Noun

gun (plural guns)

[edit]

Again, nothing in there about being designed to kill.

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Aethec

That is so ridiculous it's not even worth answering. You're at the bottom of the hole, and still digging.

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Growled

Guns are designed to kill things, their other uses are secondary. That's what they are, they are weapons. A car isn't a weapon, a shop isn't a weapon.

That is true. However, there are defensive and offensive uses for a weapon. There is a great deal of difference between the two.

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theyarecomingforyou
Hmmm, the only part of that definiton that even references killing is the slang term at the end. So much for the idea that "guns are designed to kill". If that were the case, it would be in the definition, don't you think?

Are you being deliberately obtuse? You don't need to look up the definition of the word "gun" to know that they're designed to kill. If you can't accept that then there is no discussion.

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mudslag

Definition of a gun:

Hmmm, the only part of that definiton that even references killing is the slang term at the end. So much for the idea that "guns are designed to kill". If that were the case, it would be in the definition, don't you think?

Also, this one from Wiktionary:

[/b]

Again, nothing in there about being designed to kill.

The definitions often describe what something is or means, not necessarily the purpose or full purpose.

Building: something built with a roof and walls, such as a house or factory

A building serves the purpose of multiple things, habitation, storage, security/shelter. The definition describes what it is, the purpose describes what it's for. Definition and purpose are two different things.

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DocM

.... because if the thermoplastic frames can be homebreaed the metal parts aren't far behind. Why? Because the next-gen 3D metal pronters have 8-10 micron accuracy and can even print using titanium.

http://m.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/08/3d-weapons/

Designing gadgets with desktop 3D printers is nothing new. But until now, no one has ever used an at-home thermoplastic machine to help build a pistol. For one of the nation?s gun lobbies, it?s about time.

The firearm in question is a .22-caliber rifle developed by Wisconsin engineer and amateur gunsmith Michael Guslick. Using his Stratasys 3D printing machine and blueprints downloaded from the internet, Guslick successfully printed the lower receiver ? or frame ? of an AR-15 rifle and turned it into a gun. He also shared the results on his blog.

?People have been making firearms at home since before America was a country,? Dudley Brown, executive vice president of the National Association for Gun Rights, tells Danger Room. ?And not only does it not make it dangerous, it makes America safer. It?s where most of the innovation came from. John Moses Browning built guns out of his basement. We?re still using them.?

Neither Brown nor the NAGR condone building firearms illegally. But at-home plastic gun manufacturing raises some thorny legal and regulatory questions, and has some worried it could undermine attempts to keep America?s guns under control. Managing the flow of solid weapons is one thing. How do you control a digital pattern that people can use to print guns in their living rooms?

Note that Guslick didn?t manufacture the entire weapon using the printer. The rest of the rifle is assembled from commercial off-the-shelf parts. Guslick provided a photo of an earlier pistol model ? seen above ? to Danger Room, which shows a printed thermoplastic lower receiver, and a commercially bought metal upper receiver, barrel, grip and magazine. And of course, Guslick didn?t manufacture the ammo either. But as metal and ceramic materials become available for low-end printers, it could become possible to one day print an entire gun.

Legally, however, Guslick did print a firearm. Well, maybe. Under the Gun Control Act of 1968, the receiver is what determines whether or not a gun is a gun. No receiver, no gun. For the nation?s gun lobbies ? pro- and anti-gun ? that may present a problem.

?The laws were written assuming people could make their own guns ? the law still does regulate and restrict that,? Daniel Vice, senior attorney at the Washington-based Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, tells Danger Room. Guslick likely didn?t violate any laws surrounding the manufacturing of the gun without a license, as it?s only for personal use. If he attempted to sell the pistol, or opened up a factory producing the weapons, he?d need authorization from the government.

But Vice said the weapon could possibly be illegal under the Undetectable Firearms Act of 1988, which bans the possession and manufacturing of firearms that can pass undetected through airport security. But U.S. law is unclear whether this would apply to a gun with metal parts. The Glock pistol, for example, uses plastic parts.

The National Rifle Association did not comment by press time. A representative from the Second Amendment Foundation would not speak on the record, either.

There are also questions about the weapons? practicality, at least for now. Given another decade or two, they could become easier to build. One current problem is that an upper receiver ? where the gun?s chamber is located ? made of thermoplastics could melt when experiencing the heat given off by a gas-powered rifle. Building a plastic weapon at home also isn?t like pressing a button, and requires a bit of technical know-how. Brown also doesn?t think criminals would bother trying to make them.

?Some [firearms] are legal to make and some aren?t, and it doesn?t change America,? Brown says. ?[Aurora shooting suspect James] Holmes legally bought his AR-15. So it?s not like crooks are worried about getting a hold of firearms.?

But beyond that, there?s nothing technically stopping anyone from making one, or at least the receiver. One hobbyist built an AR-15 magazine. ?On a technical level, this is absolutely boring, this is old news,? Guslick says, surprised by the media attention he?s received. But, he says, ?On a legal level, this is kind of a curiosity.?

He added that he?s not worried about whether his gun breaks the law. ?I don?t think it does, legally. There are commercially manufactured lowers which are pure polymer, no metal at all. So if it was an issue we would have heard about it on a commercial basis long ago.?

A .22-caliber pistol manufactured partly with 3D-printed plastics. Photo courtesy of Michael Guslick

ar-22-pistol-photo.jpg

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ahhell

".... because if the thermoplastic frames can be homebreaed the metal parts aren't far behind. Why? Because the next-gen 3D metal pronters have 8-10 micron accuracy and can even print using titanium."

Were you drunk and/or high when you wrote that? :s

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DocM

Not high at all. The latest generation of 3D metal printers use laser, plasma or other directed energy sintering to fuse very finely printed layers together; everything from aluminum to titanium and even some ceramics. The laser process is called Direct Metal Laser Sintering (DMLS).

GE and other aerospace companies are ramping up to use the tech for aircraft & spacecraft parts, and early personal versions are elready coming to market. About a year ago a European lab used plasma singering to make a titanium alloy jaw for an 80+ year old woman. Last I heard the transplant went well.

Printed 3D meta firearms parts wouldn't be near as tough as most are just stainless steel, aluminum, etc.

Optimized-metallic-jaw-implant.jpg

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Southern Patriot

That is true. However, there are defensive and offensive uses for a weapon. There is a great deal of difference between the two.

Yes, and despite the rantings of some of the anti-gun people around here, they have far more uses than just those two.

The definitions often describe what something is or means, not necessarily the purpose or full purpose.

A building serves the purpose of multiple things, habitation, storage, security/shelter. The definition describes what it is, the purpose describes what it's for. Definition and purpose are two different things.

And that is partially the point I was trying to make. Guns have far more uses than just killing, just as a building has more than one uses. For people to claim that their only or even primary use is killing is absurd.

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seta-san

Yes, and despite the rantings of some of the anti-gun people around here, they have far more uses than just those two.

And that is partially the point I was trying to make. Guns have far more uses than just killing, just as a building has more than one uses. For people to claim that their only or even primary use is killing is absurd.

their primary use is a weapon designed to severely injure, if not kill. That's not the point in this though. The point were missing is that sometimes people deserve to die for violating others rights, safety, and property.

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JustGeorge

I'm sure that if firearm maufacturing via printing ever became reality, they would hard code safeguards into the printer hardware, blocking the device from printing certain shapes, like a database of firearm shapes/sizes on a chip. looks like all they made was the lower receiver. The A2 grip and magazine look store-bought.

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mudslag

And that is partially the point I was trying to make. Guns have far more uses than just killing, just as a building has more than one uses. For people to claim that their only or even primary use is killing is absurd.

I agree with that, I dont think killing is the only purpose, I do think it's "a" purpose but not the only one.

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Southern Patriot

Are you being deliberately obtuse? You don't need to look up the definition of the word "gun" to know that they're designed to kill. If you can't accept that then there is no discussion.

It seems you are the one who refuses to accept facts. Guns have more than one use. And not all guns are designed to kill. I've been around guns for my entire life (I'm 41), I own three, and have shot many other kinds with friends and while in the military (including an M60 like the one in the Rambo movie). You on the other hand apparently have very little knowledge about them since you have grown up in a society where you have likely never even seen one in real life. I'd wager that most people would conclude that I have a far better knowledge of the subject matter than you do.

I agree with that, I dont think killing is the only purpose, I do think it's "a" purpose but not the only one.

And I never claimed otherwise.

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