Big Gun Control Debate


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DocM

That would require quite a bit of code as you could easily build multiple connected parts for later separation. Quite an AI project.

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mudslag

their primary use is a weapon designed to severely injure, if not kill. That's not the point in this though. The point were missing is that sometimes people deserve to die for violating others rights, safety, and property.

That's a pretty loose statement. I hope when you say violating you are talking about extreme cases. This guy thought his rights were being violated.

http://www.rawstory....HQtV334E.reddit

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JustGeorge

That would require quite a bit of code as you could easily build multiple connected parts for later separation. Quite an AI project.

True, but never underestimate the determination of idiots hellbent on disarming us. Machines are also getting smarter.

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KingCracker

That's a pretty loose statement. I hope when you say violating you are talking about extreme cases. This guy thought his rights were being violated.

http://www.rawstory....HQtV334E.reddit

Some people do deserve to die. If someone is trying to kill me especially if I have done nothing wrong. Don't they deserve a bullet in the brain? If its my life vs his i'm sorry but i'm choosing mine.
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DocM

And if thermoplastic printers can be homebrewed so can these, which puts them out of regulation. High-power laser diodes are readily available, the required power varying by alloy, and the rest is basic mechanics, circuits and servo motors.

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mudslag

I'm sure that if firearm maufacturing via printing ever became reality, they would hard code safeguards into the printer hardware, blocking the device from printing certain shapes, like a database of firearm shapes/sizes on a chip. looks like all they made was the lower receiver. The A2 grip and magazine look store-bought.

Not really possible and who exactly would willing block out certain printing options? The designs come from a pc, you would have to block it from the particular software, which is easily open to work a rounds. Printing guns from home will be a reality prob within the next few years. Id say the hardest part is getting the material capable of handling the effects of shooting without wearing down.

The real concern would be the printing of a gun that can fire off a round or two before breaking down but all made of plastic, down to the bullets.

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mudslag

Some people do deserve to die. If someone is trying to kill me especially if I have done nothing wrong. Don't they deserve a bullet in the brain? If its my life vs his i'm sorry but i'm choosing mine.

Hence why I said it was a loose statement and said extreme cases.

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JustGeorge

Not really possible and who exactly would willing block out certain printing options? The designs come from a pc, you would have to block it from the particular software, which is easily open to work a rounds. Printing guns from home will be a reality prob within the next few years. Id say the hardest part is getting the material capable of handling the effects of shooting without wearing down.

The real concern would be the printing of a gun that can fire off a round or two before breaking down but all made of plastic, down to the bullets.

Printer manufacture's would eventually be forced into compliance through legislation. The media would be all over something like this accusing companies of supporting killers should they refuse. ...And you really don't believe its impossible do you?

And if thermoplastic printers can be homebrewed so can these, which puts them out of regulation. High-power laser diodes are readily available, the required power varying by alloy, and the rest is basic mechanics, circuits and servo motors.

If something like this scenario came to pass, I'm sure it would also be a felony offence to hack a printer's safeguards. The way things are going in regards to our freedoms, the erosion of personal privacy and the push for cloud data storage, whats a little 'ol printer calling home to report now and then?

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Azies

Most unsettling, fortunately that technology won't see mainstream until 2020's at least, it's too expensive right now.

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mudslag

Printer manufacture's would eventually be forced into compliance through legislation. The media would be all over something like this accusing companies of supporting killers.

Wont and can't happen. Again you print through the software and even if it were possible to ban shapes from within the software, which is it, most of these machines are able to work off of third party software programs. I used to own a laser engraver, which isnt that much different, at least in terms of software. There are tons of programs I could use to print from, corel draw was the main one I used but had plenty of other options at my disposal. Much of which is open source. Add the fact that many of these machines can be self built. Even the Reprap machines will get better and better to that point.

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DocM

Unless you need a firearmaccurate to for >100 meters traditional lands & groove rifling is optional, and Glock doesn't use it - they use a spiraled octagon. Many older forearms, the muskets, had no rifling and even today people hunt large game with unrifled shotguns. If you take that road the barrel can be a simple tube of sufficiently strong steel.

The cartridge pressure is botn by the firing chamber, which can be a separate part from the barrel and connected by threads or a pinned joint. This is not a large part, and can be machined on very basic gear. Trust me.

All this depends on the cartridge too; a .380 SMG can be made using iron pipes you can get at most hardware stores as both barrel and chamber..

Polymer handles are old news, and printable. The redt of a firearm can be stainless steel stampings or printings and standard springs if the design is made that way.

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Southern Patriot

Not high at all.

I think you might want to get some sleep and take a look at that post again. Your spelling isn't quite up to your usual standards.

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DocM

Carpal tunnel acting up & not reviewing.

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SupportGeek

Printer manufacture's would eventually be forced into compliance through legislation. The media would be all over something like this accusing companies of supporting killers should they refuse. ...And you really don't believe its impossible do you?

If something like this scenario came to pass, I'm sure it would also be a felony offence to hack a printer's safeguards. The way things are going in regards to our freedoms, the erosion of personal privacy and the push for cloud data storage, whats a little 'ol printer calling home to report now and then?

As someone pointed out, it would be impossible to do what you propose. Hacking items is commonplace anyhow, look at cellphones.

Additionally the point DocM was trying to make, was that many of these 3D printers are not made by any particular manufacturer, thy are pieced together through parts.

You can buy a makerbot right now for like $1500 and that will let you print a plastic receiver etc, the rest of the parts can all be purchased with no tracking or registration or FFL. Ez pz

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DocM

And if you're talking a pistol like tha SIG P250 the only serialized part is the rather small double action fire control module. Having stripped that module down (< 4 minutes) several times I could see someone duping its rather simple design and using it in a rifle or whatever.

W7021_SigArms-0265.jpg

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Azusa

Most unsettling, fortunately that technology won't see mainstream until 2020's at least, it's too expensive right now.

Unless you find a group of people willing to chip in to buy one and then print more for the rest!?

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mudslag

Most unsettling, fortunately that technology won't see mainstream until 2020's at least, it's too expensive right now.

Decent professional 3D printers start at the 10k range and go up, it's really not the expensive of a technology. Again the key is the material used. Iv heard they are working on metal materials that when fused is going to be as hard as steel. The tech is closer then you think.

Ill try and find the show talking about it.

Not related to printing guns but how about homes. 3D printer could build a house in 20 hours, Plumbing, electrical and all.

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Eric

Since gun control has become such an active topic on Neowin it has resulted in multiple threads discussing the same topics. It's time it got a promotion.

Please post all new articles and discussion questions pertaining to gun control in this thread. Any new threads that are started on this topic will be merged here.

News articles related to guns should continue to be posted in the proper forum.

Please be respectful of others' opinions and don't forget the forum rules!

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KingCracker

A gun running bust in Australia caught 3 gun runners selling guns. I guess gun bans work...Imagine how many they sold before the police caught them.. No that couldn't happen in America! :rolleyes:

http://jigsawsthough...-certainly.html Oh by the way the way laws work in the U.S they can't force you to give up what you already own. The government can only enforce new laws and not make you give up what you had before the law was in place. Like the Clinton era assault rifle ban (which didn't really ban "assault rifles") You could still buy AR-15s you just couldn't have one with a collapsible stock,bayonet lug and you were restricted to 10 rounds and you got to keep the ones you already owned. If a new one was put into law it would most likely look like the ban from 94. Well actually you could buy mags over 10 rounds but companies could no longer produce them. Why they banned collapsible stocks and bayonet lugs is beyond me. I don't even know anyone that uses the bayonet lug. The liberals just looked at an ar-15 and said, this looks evil, that looks evil this is evil ban it! The Clinton era assault rifle ban pretty much lives on in CA its the same but they made bayonet lugs and collapsible stocks legal but kept the 10 round limit. They've banned guns by name and made it so you can't release the magazine without a tool. But now a stupid senator from CA is pushing bill SB249 that's been gutted several times because he knows he cant win. But that bans bullet buttons which will make it illegal to use a tool to release the magazine. CA has banned guns by name but Gun manufactures just make the same guns with different names and sell them in CA :). Like a DPMS Panther ar-15, that's banned. So DPMS just puts DPMS on the receiver and sells it in CA, its the same gun.

But a little more on bill SB249 before the bullet button was invented residents of CA had to use top loader AR-15's. Those are dangerous because you have to open the receiver to load it, if a malfunction occurs that can make for a dangerous situation. So the bullet button was invented. Now the dumb *** senator is trying to make it where people would have to go back to top loaders. I guess they want it make it hard to reload because criminals are like COD with their reload speed :rolleyes:

The state where I live has a lot less restrictions but you still have to take a test (written and target shooting) and wait about 3 months to get a carry permit. If you don't have one you can't carry one legally and its generally accepted here that you can't even have loaded mags out of the gun. Which is strange because CA considers a loaded mag out of the gun not part of the gun. It only becomes part of the gun when its inserted. But if you have a carry permit you can carry loaded and transport firearms with loaded mags out of the gun.

I believe in all 50 states you can't have a gun on school grounds, which is good but also kind of sucks, not because I want to carry a gun at an elementary school but because if I get stopped in a school zone with a gun (which I had because I was going to the range) then i'm screwed. Don't do anything wrong to get pulled over? Pfft cops will pull you over for anything these days.

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DocM

>

I believe in all 50 states you can't have a gun on school grounds, which is good but also kind of sucks,

>

in Michigan if you have a carry permit you can carry in a school if the weapon is exposed. You can also have the weapon in a vehicle in the parking lot if it's stowed & inaccessible to the passengers. There is also a 2-tiered licensing system in the lagislature to allow the level-2's to carry anywhere - no exclusion zones unless specicically posted. .

Other states like Utah have already passed legislation allowing concealed carry on college campuses.

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KingCracker

My fellow gun owners I found this site that finds the best deals on ammo and other firearm related things. http://www.slickguns.com/

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KingCracker

The Continuing, Sad Saga of Fast and Furious

August 14, 2012 -- The continuing saga of Eric Holder?s efforts to block the release of documents pertaining to the Fast and Furious "gunwalking" scandal has tarred the Department of Justice with a black mark of shame it will not overcome for years.

Yes, the ATF has long been known by gun owners as a rogue and unconstitutional agency, but this scandal has now made most Americans aware of its unlawful tactics and disrespect for the rights of law-abiding citizens.

The actions of Attorney General Holder, a man who once said he wanted to brainwash Americans into supporting gun control, have left a bad taste in the mouths of Americans.ericholder.jpg?host=filemanager.capwiz.com&port=80&path_query=%2Ffilemanager%2Ffile-mgr%2Fgunowners%2Fericholder.jpg

There is no doubt that one of the unspoken objectives of Fast and Furious was to forward the cause of domestic gun control. If any Mexican citizens or American law enforcement personnel happened to get in the way? Well, that was just too bad.

The Department of Justice is so out of control that the House of Representatives recently voted to find an Attorney General of the United States in civil and criminal contempt of Congress. This is the first time in the history of the republic that this has happened.

Does this move Holder to cooperate with Congress? No. He continues to hide behind President Obama?s use of executive privilege and has forced Darrell Issa, Chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, to file suit in U.S. Federal District Court to perhaps finally get the documents out of Holder and his cronies (that?s assuming said documents haven?t been shredded and deleted from hard drives).

Gun control has been a pet cause of Mr. Holder?s since his days in the Clinton Administration. He?s after our constitutional rights and he won?t be happy until he gets them, no matter how much blood is on his hands, directly or indirectly.

Just ask the families of Brian Terry and Jamie Zapata, who were American law-enforcement officers, killed by guns the ATF ?lost? as part of Fast and Furious.

Or how about Mexican citizens such as Mario Gonzalez, brother of Chihuahua State Prosecutor Patricia Gonzalez, who was tortured and killed by members of a drug gang. When the Mexican authorities raided the place where he had been held, they recovered two AK-47s that were known to be part of the Fast and Furious program?

All of these deaths and hundreds more can be laid at the feet of Eric Holder. All of them are why Darrell Issa is suing his office and it is why GOA is suing the ATF for more documents related to Fast and Furious. We want answers, Mr. Holder.

Moreover, the families of Brian Terry, Jamie Zapata and Mario Gomez, along with many others, have a right to ask: Why did my loved one have to die so you could take the rights of honest Americans away? Why indeed Mr. Holder?

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Aethec
The actions of Attorney General Holder, a man who once said he wanted to brainwash Americans into supporting gun control

Holder said they needed to brainwash people into "thinking about guns in a vastly different way".

See the video:

He may have gone a bit too far when saying there needs to be education every single day, but he has a point.

And he never actually speaks about gun control in that speech; he says people need to be convinced they do not need or want these guns, period. He's a lawyer, he knows what it takes to change the Constitution.

The case against Holder is politically motivated, nothing more. The NRA is a GOP puppet, and has been for a long time. Just look at what they said about Obama - that somehow the laws he approved to reduce gun control (Amtrak trains & national parks) were traps, and that he would destroy the 2nd Amendment during his second term.

Gunwalking was started under Bush, and his A.G. at the time (Mukasey) knew everything about it but didn't act. If you want to blame someone for the death of innocent people because guns were brought to Mexico, which makes no sense anyway because there is no single man responsible, Holder's not your man.

The article you quoted is nothing but conservative propaganda using good ol' rhetoric to convince you of something that simply isn't true.

No, the DoJ will not keep a "black mark of shame" for years in the minds of normal people - the article is trying to convince you of it, you can't use your conclusion as an argument.

No, the ATF is not a "rogue and unconstitutionnal" agency. Same as above.

No, Holder didn't say that. Lie.

No, his actions haven't left "a bad taste" in the mouth of Americans. Once again, conclusion as argument.

No, Fast and Furious' point is not gun control, since it was started under Bush & Mukasey. Lie.

No, the reason the House held Holder in comtempt is not because the DoJ is out of control but because they want him to resign since he's not a Republican. Lie.

No, Holder doesn't have "cronies" as staff unless you can prove it. Ad hominem attack, and a bad one at that.

No, Holder didn't control the ATF. Lie.

No, these death were not Holder's fault. Lie.

And a nice feelings-based ""argument"" for the finish - people died, that means we must avenge them and forget about rational reasoning!

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KingCracker

Holder said they needed to brainwash people into "thinking about guns in a vastly different way".

See the video:

He may have gone a bit too far when saying there needs to be education every single day, but he has a point.

And he never actually speaks about gun control in that speech; he says people need to be convinced they do not need or want these guns, period. He's a lawyer, he knows what it takes to change the Constitution.

The case against Holder is politically motivated, nothing more. The NRA is a GOP puppet, and has been for a long time. Just look at what they said about Obama - that somehow the laws he approved to reduce gun control (Amtrak trains & national parks) were traps, and that he would destroy the 2nd Amendment during his second term.

Gunwalking was started under Bush, and his A.G. at the time (Mukasey) knew everything about it but didn't act. If you want to blame someone for the death of innocent people because guns were brought to Mexico, which makes no sense anyway because there is no single man responsible, Holder's not your man.

The article you quoted is nothing but conservative propaganda using good ol' rhetoric to convince you of something that simply isn't true.

No, the DoJ will not keep a "black mark of shame" for years in the minds of normal people - the article is trying to convince you of it, you can't use your conclusion as an argument.

No, the ATF is not a "rogue and unconstitutionnal" agency. Same as above.

No, Holder didn't say that. Lie.

No, his actions haven't left "a bad taste" in the mouth of Americans. Once again, conclusion as argument.

No, Fast and Furious' point is not gun control, since it was started under Bush & Mukasey. Lie.

No, the reason the House held Holder in comtempt is not because the DoJ is out of control but because they want him to resign since he's not a Republican. Lie.

No, Holder doesn't have "cronies" as staff unless you can prove it. Ad hominem attack, and a bad one at that.

No, Holder didn't control the ATF. Lie.

No, these death were not Holder's fault. Lie.

And a nice feelings-based ""argument"" for the finish - people died, that means we must avenge them and forget about rational reasoning!

All I have to say is why is Obama and holder hiding the papers. If there they did nothing wrong show the papers.But instead Obama used executive order to keep the documents from being shown, if he is innocent then he shouldn't have anything to hide, the same goes for holder. His actions left a bad taste in millions of gun owners mouths hence "Americans".As far as changing the constitution ugh I hate to see that day.

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Aethec

In Holder's letter to Obama, he says: "I am asking you to assert executive privilege over these documents. They were not generated in the course of the conduct over Fast and Furious. Instead, they were created after the investigative tactics at issue in that operation had terminated and in the course of the Department's deliberative process concerning how to respond to congressional and related media inquiries in that operation."

In less formal language: these documents are unrelated. The DoJ already gave Issa over seven thousand documents conerning Fast and Furious. Holder says it very formally in the last paragraph of the first section, but it seems the documents contain not-so-nice words about people both inside and outside of Congress, and the DoJ wants to be free to say whatever they want when talking internally rather than having to keep it formal and never accuse anybody of anything.

The letter is embedded here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/20/obama-executive-privilege-fast-and-furious_n_1611962.html

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