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Windows 8 / 10: Shutdown Hibernation hybrid : Consumers confused.

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Dot Matrix    7,417

I really think they need to back pedal on this. Make it the way it use to be. Or somehow let the user know that this is not "a replacement for a restart" like EVERYONE thinks it is!

Yes, how dare Microsoft transition into new ways of doing things!

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eddman    359

Except the average user for some reason has been programmed for the last 20 years if something doesn't work right, turn it off and turn it back on. Which would actually work in previous versions because in doing that they would be restarting windows.

Then that's not an average user. Windows always asks to "RESTART your computer", MS online documents also use the term "Restart". Never they state "Shutdown your computer and then turn it back on".

 

If someone cannot even see that there are two separate options in the menu, restart and shutdown, then perhaps they shouldn't even touch a PC.

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rfirth    740

Anyone who clicks "shutdown" instead of "restart" when they want to restart deserves whatever happens to them.

 

Next you'll be ranting about why Internet Explorer's back button should go forward and that clicking Notepad should open Paint.

 

No, I'd rather live in a world where the default behavior is the fastest and most appropriate 99% of the time.

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+warwagon    12,827

I've had at least 4 people this week with Windows 8 machines try to solve their problems by turning the computer off and back on. These people ranged in all different ages, young and old. So while techies may know better, I really don't think the average person doesn't. They just turn it off and turn it back on.

 

Out of these 4 all the issues were solved once they did a proper reboot. One of them didn't even do a shutdown, although they tried, they just pressed the power button once, which of course put it to sleep, then they pressed the button again to turn it back on.

 

Everyone here is calling these people stupid or they get what they deserve. I don't understand why.  In all previous version of Windows turning a computer off and turning it back on did solve most problems. Its fine that Microsoft is changing things but they should some how convey it to the user.

 

Not to offend anyone, but I do think most techies are not in touch with the average user.

 

 

Windows always asks to "RESTART your computer", MS online documents also use the term "Restart". Never they state "Shutdown your computer and then turn it back on".

 

I also don't see the average user reading that documentation.

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eddman    359

I also don't see the average user reading that documentation.

Then it's partly their problem. These are the kind of people who buy a new device, say a very new and different washing machine, but never read the manual, and yet moan and complain when this and that doesn't work and they can't figure it out.

 

Technology never stays the same and certainly will not do so for the sake of a few clueless people.

 

Smartphones do not shutdown completely either, meaning that certain issues cannot be fixed by simply turning it off. Do people have a problem there too? Not really, because they've been told to take the battery out and then try again. Since nowadays many models have a built-in battery, the solution is to do a reset, by holding one or a few buttons.

 

That aside, I think that geeks and computer technicians are also at fault here. Back in the day we told people that shutdown and restart are the same thing, now it's our job to make it right.

 

People are going to call you and me and we just have to tell them how it is, or like I do sometimes, tell them to go and learn the damn differences between 8/8.1 and 7 before jumping head on into it and then complaining about problems.

 

An example of a very bad windows technician; I used to go to windows XP classes about 12-13 years ago and this idiot teacher actually thought that logging off does the same thing as a restart and told all the students that if a program asks for a restart after installation, we don't need to do it and a log off will do the same thing.

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chrisj1968    1,417

Windows 8's new "Shutdown" is more of a hibernation hybrid, where to achieve faster boot times never truly shutsdown / restarts. The issue I see with this is people who use the shut down option because they think they are shutting their computer off and that it's acting like a restart like it has in every previous version of windows, when in fact it never really gets a true reboot. So over time issues start to arrise

So i'm not a fan of the new shutdown as I think people think they are always starting their computers up fresh. When in fact they are not.

 

Today I got a call from a customer who was having problems opening her

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+warwagon    12,827
People are going to call you and me and we just have to tell them how it is, or like I do sometimes, tell them to go and learn the damn differences between 8/8.1 and 7 before jumping head on into it and then complaining about problems.

 

I agree, and I do explain them the differences. I even made a Facebook post about it on my business page.

 

 

Here is a little tidbit for anyone running Windows 8. Some people when Windows is acting wonky and things aren

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Arkos Reed    176

[HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\DesktopBackground\Shell\Shutdown]
"icon"="shell32.dll,-290"
"Position"="Bottom"

[HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\DesktopBackground\Shell\Shutdown\command]
@="shutdown.exe -s -t 00 -f"

This way you'll have a real shutdown available when right-clicking on your desktop. There, all problems solved.

 

The forced hybrid hibernation when choosing shutdown in the win-x menu or the start panel is an aberration made to please the unabashed hordes of speed/instant gratification crazed ppl who can't wait for an extra 7 seconds for their machine to start up, despite all the drawbacks.

Anyway, when users ask me what to do when they have an issue at work, I always repeat them "when in doubt, reboot, THEN call me"

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+warwagon    12,827
[HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\DesktopBackground\Shell\Shutdown]
"icon"="shell32.dll,-290"
"Position"="Bottom"

[HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\DesktopBackground\Shell\Shutdown\command]
@="shutdown.exe -s -t 00 -f"

This way you'll have a real shutdown available when right-clicking on your desktop. There, all problems solved.

 

The forced hybrid hibernation when choosing shutdown in the win-x menu or the start panel is an aberration made to please the unabashed hordes of speed/instant gratification crazed ppl who can't wait for an extra 7 seconds for their machine to start up, despite all the drawbacks.

Anyway, when users ask me what to do when they have an issue at work, I always repeat them "when in doubt, reboot, THEN call me"

 

 

The problem is, you have to be more specific than that. You just can't say reboot. A lot of people You say reboot, they think turn off and back on.

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Arkos Reed    176

The problem is, you have to be more specific than that. You just can't say reboot. A lot of people You say reboot, they think turn off and back on.

If people can't listen correctly and read an item label in a menu, not my fault. As I often say, I'll guide them when needed, but I won't hold their ###### to help them pee.

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devHead    1,964

I have an SSD and to save space on it, I disabled Hibernation.  My PC cold boots up in 10 or so seconds, so to me there's no real benefit to having the hibernation shutdown.

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+warwagon    12,827

If people can't listen correctly and read an item label in a menu, not my fault. As I often say, I'll guide them when needed, but I won't hold their ###### to help them pee.

 

That must be why i'm so loved by my customers. I hold their #### to help them pee! :laugh:

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Arkos Reed    176

That must be why i'm so loved by my customers. I hold their #### to help them pee! :laugh:

Don't you ever dare continue to do that if you ever develop Parkinson's Disease mmkay? :rofl:

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+warwagon    12,827

Don't you ever dare continue to do that if you ever develop Parkinson's Disease mmkay? :rofl:

 

Ya, they might enjoy that a little too much.

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eddman    359

So you tell a customer that calls you for help "to go and learn the damn differences between 8/8.1 and 7 before jumping head on into it and then complaining about problems.?"

 

I was being a bit sarcastic there. I tell that only to the entitled ones who think I'm their personal assistant.

 

But if If they aren't told by a technician how will they ever "Learn the damn difference"? Even a few people on Neowin commenting in this thread didn't even know.

 

Back then when I wanted to start using computers and windows, I bought books, I went to classes, I read articles, I read windows' help and for certain things, I simply searched the web.

 

When a new version of windows came along, I didn't suddenly format my HDD and install it like a moron. I tried learning its new features and differences before making the switch.

 

Apparently some people are to arrogant and/or lazy to do that. My mother and even my MOTHER'S AUNT went to classes before buying a PC a few years ago. (and they never confused shutdown and restart, for that matter. Guss they had good teachers. :D )

 

Sometimes I get calls from some friends or their friends who have installed windows 8/8.1 without even knowing what a start screen is and yet they expected it to work just like it did in 7. I simply ask them "Why did you switch to 8 if you had zero idea what it's like? Was it really that hard to do a bit of research?"

 

No, it's not our job to teach every single damn thing about a new OS to others. They have to go and learn the major changes on their own and I'll only help them on very specific things.

 

All in all, if I say a person to do a "restart" and then he/she does a "shutdown" because he/she can't even tell the difference between two very specific words which are worded exactly like that in the menu, then maybe they should start knowing computers better and learn a thing or two.

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NJTechLady    2

It's bad naming for a lot of reasons. "Shut down" implies shut down of processes followed by power off, not hibernation. So unless you go hunting to find out what exactly the different terms are, it's not very intuitive.

I understand why they did it, because the old Hibernate Suspend Shut down Reboot Sleep wasn't exactly very straightforward either.

It doesn't take into account established user patterns for the bulk of the users. That's always a sign of a bad OS evolution unless there's a functional reason for something changing. In this case there isn't a functional reason behind the name change even there's a functional reason behind why the behavior of the OS has changed. (Faster startups. In theory.)

I don't tend to like changes that turn me into a computer tutor when I could be a computer technician. And ultimately when a functionality causes repeat problems for end users, the technician ends up having to play tutor.

Most people don't RTFM. It's unreasonable to expect them to. They're not playing with computers because they're techies. They're playing with computers because they have a job to do or they're playing  with computers to correspond with friends. Or they're playing with computers to print recipes. A user interface should become more intuitive as it develops, not less intuitive.

I've adapted. I don't say "reboot". I say "Choose 'reboot', do not choose 'shut down' because that will not restart your computer."

I liked it better when I could just say "reboot", and two of the options would get us where we needed to go.

People will get used to "reboot" meaning "reboot" and "shutdown" not meaning "reboot" eventually. It was just not a necessary change, IMO. Shut down should mean power off. Shut down. Go cold.  Reboot should mean... Reboot. And if you want a hibernate option, let that be called hibernate. Or whatever it is you want to call it that doesn't imply a state of "off". You don't take an established term that means "off" and make it mean something else. It's a bad change.

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rfirth    740

It's bad naming for a lot of reasons. "Shut down" implies power off, not hibernation. So unless you go hunting to find out what exactly the different terms are, it's not very intuitive.

People will get used to "reboot" meaning "reboot" and "shutdown" not meaning "reboot" eventually. It was just not a necessary change, IMO. Shut down should mean power off. Shut down. Go cold.  Reboot should mean... Reboot. And if you want a hibernate option, let that be called hibernate. Or whatever it is you want to call it that doesn't imply a state of "off". You don't take an established term that means "off" and make it mean something else. It's a bad change.

 

Yes, "shut down" implies power off. And that's exactly what it does. It powers off your computer. It just adds the step of saving the state of the kernel first. But it does power off. The new "shut down" isn't "sleep mode". It's off.

 

People will get used to "reboot" meaning "reboot"? I sure hope so. Reboot is the same word as reboot.

 

There is nothing semantically wrong with the change. No, the problem is the phrase:

 

IT.jpg

 

Because that won't reboot your computer.

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+warwagon    12,827

Yes, "shut down" implies power off. And that's exactly what it does. It powers off your computer. It just adds the step of saving the state of the kernel first. But it does power off. The new "shut down" isn't "sleep mode". It's off.

 

People will get used to "reboot" meaning "reboot"? I sure hope so. Reboot is the same word as reboot.

 

There is nothing semantically wrong with the change. No, the problem is the phrase:

 

 

 

Because that won't reboot your computer.

 

 

I think what confuses people is shutting down and turning back on works for pretty much everything but Windows 8.

 

This includes

 

GPS

Phones (if you can actually get it to power off), or just remove the battery if it has one

DVD players

Blue Ray players

Mp3 players.

DVR's

TV's.

Apple computers.

iPhones

iPads and other tablets.

Every Version of Windows before Windows 8.

Routers (via unplugging them)

Modems (via unplugging them)

Xbox 360

PlayStation 3

Nintendo DS'es.

 

obviously my iPod Nano never gets shut off but about 6 months of never being turned off it went wanky, so I powered it down and turned it back on and its been working great ever since.

 

Below is a mockup of a power menu would inform the user what is going on.

post-4927-0-08572400-1423854388.jpg

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HawkMan    5,232

Windows 8's new "Shutdown" is more of a hibernation hybrid, where to achieve faster boot times never truly shutsdown / restarts. The issue I see with this is people who use the shut down option because they think they are shutting their computer off and that it's acting like a restart like it has in every previous version of windows, when in fact it never really gets a true reboot. So over time issues start to arrise

So i'm not a fan of the new shutdown as I think people think they are always starting their computers up fresh. When in fact they are not.

 

Today I got a call from a customer who was having problems opening her

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Draconian Guppy    13,037

I guess this is the reason hiberfile.sys is huge most of the time...

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HawkMan    5,232

I think what confuses people is shutting down and turning back on works for pretty much everything but Windows 8.

 

This includes

 

GPS

Phones (if you can actually get it to power off), or just remove the battery if it has one

DVD players

Blue Ray players

Mp3 players.

DVR's

TV's.

Apple computers.

iPhones

iPads and other tablets.

Every Version of Windows before Windows 8.

Routers (via unplugging them)

Modems (via unplugging them)

Xbox 360

PlayStation 3

Nintendo DS'es.

 

obviously my iPod Nano never gets shut off but about 6 months of never being turned off it went wanky, so I powered it down and turned it back on and its been working great ever since.

 

Below is a mockup of a power menu would inform the user what is going on.

 

a lot of that list is wrong, and in fact most devices there hybrid sleeps. and even some of those who don't need a cold reset to fix some issues.

 

iPad/phones for example need to a cold reset for a lot of bugs, same with android phones. many GPS' same thing, sometimes you need to force a cold reset. and that goes for a lot of those devices. heck TV's you "often"(relatively, if you help people with them frequently) have to factory reset.

I guess this is the reason hiberfile.sys is huge most of the time...

 

 

about the same size as the amount of ram you have.

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Draconian Guppy    13,037

a lot of that list is wrong, and in fact most devices there hybrid sleeps. and even some of those who don't need a cold reset to fix some issues.

 

iPad/phones for example need to a cold reset for a lot of bugs, same with android phones. many GPS' same thing, sometimes you need to force a cold reset. and that goes for a lot of those devices. heck TV's you "often"(relatively, if you help people with them frequently) have to factory reset.

 

 

about the same size as the amount of ram you have.

Yeah I had to download a file size categorizer to find out which file was consuming 14gb... then I found, hibernation file is 85% of your ram... then you having paging file... crazy...

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+warwagon    12,827
iPad/phones for example need to a cold reset for a lot of bugs, same with android phones. many GPS' same thing,

 

whether you hold down the power button and swipe to turn off or do the combo press to force off the device off, then turning it back on. Either way turning it off and back on solved the problem.

 

I realize the cold reboot is more of a forced restart than a turn off and back on. Typical the only thing a iOS user knows about (well some don't even know about that) but you hold down the power and swipe to turn off, that solves a majority of their issues)

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eddman    359

Phones (if you can actually get it to power off), or just remove the battery if it has one

DVD players

Blue Ray players

TV's.

Routers (via unplugging them)

Modems (via unplugging them)

 

Phones: Almost no smartphone nowadays actually powers off, as I mentioned in my other post. Also, how could you compare removing the battery to shutting down? I suppose you can "shutdown" a computer by yanking the power cord then.

Some issues cannot be solved by a simple on and off. They require battery removal or a soft reset.

 

DVD players

Blue Ray players: If you mean pushing the red button on the remote, no, that doesn't power it off. Same goes for the power button on the main device. They are in constant standby. If you want to power them off completely, remove the power cable.

 

TV: Most modern TVs behave like DVD and Blu-Ray players. Only on some older models the power button on the device truly cuts the power.

 

Routers (via unplugging them)

Modems (via unplugging them): Well, obviously unplugging them will turn them off, but again a direct comparison for PC would be to do the same, cut the cord.

 

None of the things in your list can be directly compared to windows, be it 8 or 7 or vista.

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+warwagon    12,827

Phones: Almost no smartphone nowadays actually powers off, as I mentioned in my other post. Also, how could you compare removing the battery to shutting down? I suppose you can "shutdown" a computer by yanking the power cord then.

Some issues cannot be solved by a simple on and off. They require battery removal or a soft reset.

 

Of course. You hit the power button and the screen shuts of. But if you hold the button down and select power off (shut down) , the phone shuts off and you hold the power button back down and it turns back on.

 

There are issues were the phone is completely locked up. Had it happen with Facebook Messenger on my Moto G 1st gen. Can't take the battery out. So I had to hold the power button down for 10 seconds and my phone turned off.  Then I turned it back on and it was fine.

 

As far as yanking the power cord. Sometimes the Computer is so locked up that's the only way. But in the process after yanking the cord and turning the computer back on. They see the computer restarting. I tell them not to get into the habit of doing that unless there is no other option.

 

 

Routers (via unplugging them)

Modems (via unplugging them): Well, obviously unplugging them will turn them off, but again a direct comparison for PC would be to do the same, cut the cord.

 

Correct  they never get turned off, but when they do get turned off via unplugging them and you plug them back in, stuff starts working again. The only thing the user understands is, all they did was turn it off and back on and it fixed the issue.

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