Windows 8 / 10: Shutdown Hibernation hybrid : Consumers confused.


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+warwagon

Hybrid sleep was introduced in Windows 7

 

and arguably hybrid shutdown was introduced with Vista. ever since vista the default setting for the physical power button and the start menu shutdown was hibernation. 

 

That was not a hybrid shut down. That was sleeping. The power button would either blink  or be orange.

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HawkMan

That was not a hybrid shut down. That was sleeping. You could not unplug

 

No, default for power button, before OEM's changed it was hibernation which allows you to shut down. on laptops they often used sleep or on windows 7 hybrid sleep instead, since you can unplug a sleeping laptop, it has a battery you know, and the majority of computer users are on laptops anyway. 

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+warwagon

No, default for power button, before OEM's changed it was hibernation which allows you to shut down. on laptops they often used sleep or on windows 7 hybrid sleep instead, since you can unplug a sleeping laptop, it has a battery you know, and the majority of computer users are on laptops anyway. 

 

 But on Windows 8 you can also remove the battery. Not the same thing.

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HawkMan

 But on Windows 8 you can also remove the battery. Not the same thing.

 

wtf are you even talking about...

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+warwagon

wtf are you even talking about...

 

Nevermind. I miss read what you said.

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HawkMan

Also why would a normal person remove the battery, 

 

and actually on windows 7 on a laptop where hybrid sleep 95% is the default for close lid and power button, you can remove the battery. since it's got hybrid sleep. Both Samsung, Acer and Sony (at least) all advertise hybrid sleep's ability to remove the battery along with the 3 second startup (back on windows 7) under their own brand names for some reason as well. 


You said hybrid shutdown was released with Vista, and that you could "unplug the the power cord, but not remove the battery" ...well then it's not really shut down, it's just sleeping. With Windows 8 you can unplug and remove the battery, it's totally shut down.

 

no that's not what I said. I said it could be argued that way, from the users POV, since for the user the default was hibernation, which in effect for them outside of slightly longer startup works the same as windows 8's hybrid shutdown. 

 

shutting down doesn't reset. that's the point. Have you forgotten the original argument you made when you created this thread. 

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+warwagon

Also why would a normal person remove the battery, 

 

and actually on windows 7 on a laptop where hybrid sleep 95% is the default for close lid and power button, you can remove the battery. since it's got hybrid sleep. Both Samsung, Acer and Sony (at least) all advertise hybrid sleep's ability to remove the battery along with the 3 second startup (back on windows 7) under their own brand names for some reason as well. 

 

no that's not what I said. I said it could be argued that way, from the users POV, since for the user the default was hibernation, which in effect for them outside of slightly longer startup works the same as windows 8's hybrid shutdown. 

 

shutting down doesn't reset. that's the point. Have you forgotten the original argument you made when you created this thread. 

 

Technically when you turned a Vista computer back on after hybernation it would say "Resuming Windows" :D, so it Never gave the false perception of a boot.

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eddman

Yeah, but fast startup is essentially just starting from hibernation, yeah, sure there's some additional stuff to speed up the process, but...

They are similar but not the same.

 

Hibernation: saves both the user sessions AND system session to disk. It initiates when "Hibernate" is clicked in the power menu.

 

Hybrid shutdown (fast startup): Only saves the system session and closes the user session. Perhaps we could call it "half-hibernate". If enabled, it initiates when "Shutdown" is clicked in the power menu. Booting from this state is faster than booting from hibernation, because it only restores the system session. (EDIT: Hmm, actually now I'm not sure if it's faster. Opening a user session might take longer than restoring it.) 

 

Hybrid sleep: It has nothing to do with the above. Hybrid sleep is a type of sleep, not shutdown, and is simply "normal sleep + hibernate". If enabled, it initiates when "Sleep" is clicked in the power menu.

 

As for users, yes, If some users do a shutdown instead of a restart, when you specifically ask them to "restart", then perhaps they won't be able to tell the difference between shutdown and hibernate either. :s

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Draconian Guppy

I like the hybrid sleep mode :/ I am not willing to oppose progress because warwagon has stupid customers. They can enjoy his jokes while he is fixing their "Windows Live Mail" and "AOL Software".

Which begs the question...

 

DO YOU warwagon your customers?

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HawkMan

Technically when you turned a Vista computer back on after hybernation it would say "Resuming Windows" :D, so it Never gave the false perception of a boot.

 

As if the idiot customers you mentioned in the first post would have a clue that there was a difference. 

They are similar but not the same.

 

Hibernation: saves both the user sessions AND system session to disk. It initiates when "Hibernate" is clicked in the power menu.

 

Hybrid shutdown (fast startup): Only saves the system session and closes the user session. Perhaps we could call it "half-hibernate". If enabled, it initiates when "Shutdown" is clicked in the power menu. Booting from this state is faster than booting from hibernation, because it only restores the system session.

 

Hybrid sleep: It has nothing to do with the above. Hybrid sleep is a type of sleep, not shutdown, and is simply "normal sleep + hibernate". If enabled, it initiates when "Sleep" is clicked in the power menu.

 

As for users, yes, If some users do a shutdown instead of a restart, when you specifically ask them to "restart", then perhaps they won't be able to tell the difference between shutdown and hibernate either. :s

 

And I know that, none of that was the point though, as I already said in my earlier reply, the point is that to the users, the computer turns off and doesn't use power. so to them the computer is "off" and they would already be accustomed to shutdown not necessarily being a complete reset. 

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paul0544

My main machine used to lose sound on boot sometimes (driver issue?) until I restarted. New shutdown feature turned off and no problem since!

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LaP

I like the hybrid sleep mode :/ I am not willing to oppose progress because warwagon has stupid customers. They can enjoy his jokes while he is fixing their "Windows Live Mail" and "AOL Software".

 

Which progress? Windows 8 kind of "progress"?

 

Why not call an apple an apple? Why all of a sudden change the normal shutdown by something else? A shutdown is a shutdown. It's not an hybrid whatever. An hybrid whatever should be called an hybrid whatever. Why not simply add a new option to the power menu and give the users the option to make it the default behavior if they like it? Have a nice video starting upon installation telling them about the new option added and how to make it the default behavior..

 

The first time i installed Windows 8 before going to bed i did a shutdown of my gaming computer cause my gaming computer is kind of loud and i don't leave it open when I'm not using it (mostly always using my laptop when not gaming). I was surprised that all my case fans were still spinning (my MB is old). I &*(*("&/*&/"* lost about 30 minutes of my time to figure out what was going on. And I'm a *&*&*&?%&? computer engineer.

 

The problem of Windows 8 was not the users. It was the OS itself. It cannot be said enough times. Hope MS will do the things right with Windows 10 and not listen to Windows 8 apologists. I have nothing against change as long as it's not forced upon me.

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+warwagon

The first time i installed Windows 8 before going to bed i did a shutdown of my gaming computer cause my gaming computer is kind of loud and i don't leave it open when I'm not using it (mostly always using my laptop when not gaming). I was surprised that all my case fans were still spinning (my MB is old). I &*(*("&/*&/"* lost about 30 minutes of my time to figure out what was going on. And I'm a *&*&*&?%&? computer engineer.

 

Once you disabled the hibernation hybrid part, did it shut down correctly?

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LaP

Once you disabled the hibernation hybrid part, did it shut down correctly?

 

Yep. That's the only thing i had to do. Looks like my 5 years old motherboard was not supported properly.

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HawkMan

 

 

Why not call an apple an apple? 

 

They are, hybrid shutdown IS a shutdown, all users care about in regards to a shutdown and all that it means is that you "turn off the computer to a non power using state. Shutdown as a terminology does not also mean reset. never has never will. it's just a power state. 

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+warwagon

As if the idiot customers you mentioned in the first post would have a clue that there was a difference.

 

When an average person shuts down / turns off their lawn mower, car or their truck, It shuts off. When they go to turn it back on a day later it doesn't start up any faster. All They understand is, upon turning them back on after turning them off, they are "restarting" them.

 

I've been doing computer repair and dealing with the average user for 12 years. They aren't a bunch of techies. They don't live and breath this stuff. The Windows 8 shutdown might  make perfect sense to most of the people on this forum but it makes absolutely no sense to them.

 

You have shown, that in your mind people who don't understand the things you do, are "idiots".

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PUC_Snakeman

I personally think there should have been 2 menu options... or, perhaps, just show one of them (depending on the "Fast startup" checkbox), but still be very descriptive with it.

 

Listed in the menu as:

- Shut down with fast startup (Sign out, and hibernate the PC) [default]

- Shut down completely (Sign out, and shut down the PC)

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eddman

When an average person shuts down / turns off their lawn mower, car or their truck, It shuts off. When they go to turn it back on a day later it doesn't start up any faster. All They understand is, upon turning them back on after turning them off, they are "restarting" them.

 

I've been doing computer repair and dealing with the average user for 12 years. They aren't a bunch of techies. They don't live and breath this stuff. The Windows 8 shutdown might  make perfect sense to most of the people on this forum but it makes absolutely no sense to them.

 

You have shown, that in your mind people who don't understand the things you do, are "idiots".

They don't need to understand how shutdown works. They just need to understand that when a program, windows update or another person asks them to "restart", they should do a damn restart.

 

PC support and repair isn't my permanent job, but I do get some calls now and then, not as much as you, but honesty, whenever I've told someone to restart their computer, they just do that, and not go the long route of shutting down, reaching the power button and turning it back on again.

 

I also always tell everyone to "restart" if they encounter problems. I don't remember saying to "shutdown" to fix things, even though it was pretty much the same as restarting up to windows 7.

 

This whole discussion is pointless. Fast startup is already here and apparently is going to stay too. Some people just need to learn one simple thing: "If having problems, then restart. If asked to restart? then do a restart. Shutdown, only when you're done using your computer."

 

Maybe MS could add a "Hybrid shutdown" option to the power menu, besides "shutdown", whenever the "fast startup" option is enabled, but you can be pretty sure that it'd confuse people even more and those people who couldn't tell the difference between the words "shutdown" and "restart", wouldn't be able to tell the difference between hybrid and non-hybrid either.

 

Those kind of people who call you, might still click "hybrid shutdown", even if you ask them to restart. There are no guarantees with them.

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+warwagon
Maybe MS could add a "Hybrid shutdown" option to the power menu, besides "shutdown", whenever the "fast startup" option is enabled, but you can be pretty sure that it'd confuse people even more and those people who couldn't tell the difference between the words "shutdown" and "restart", wouldn't be able to tell the difference between hybrid and non-hybrid either.

 

Those kind of people who call you, might still click "hybrid shutdown", even if you ask them to restart. There are no guarantees with them.

 

I think you're right, but I don't think the name should have shutdown in it. I think shutdown should be shutdown and act as it always has. I think we need a completely new term. I've been crunching my brain as to what I would personally call it.

 

I personally wouldn't use anything with the word hybrid or Hibernation. Because if you ask anyone what a bear does he hibernates, which implies he goes to sleep and uses very little energy. But not the same thing when it comes to a PC.

 

In the case of a PC you can unplug it so it uses no energy. It's pretty much a dead bear. That needs to be resuscitated :laugh:

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PUC_Snakeman

Hibernate is a PC term that should be as familiar to a PC user as Restart, Shut down, and Sleep. There should be no harm in calling it Hibernate.

 

In my proposal, the menu items themselves would not include the word hibernate, except maybe in the tooltip description.Both of these methods of shutting down, should be called shut down, but somehow indicate different forms of shut down. I stand by my proposal earlier, even though I know it will never be implemented.

 

Listed in the menu as:

- Shut down with fast startup (Sign out, and hibernate the PC) [default]

- Shut down completely (Sign out, and shut down the PC)

 

PS: In Windows 10, if you click Start and then hover over the power button, the tooltip that appears says "Power options". Hmph, that's a bad tooltip. If a user right-clicks the Start Button, and clicks "Power Options", they get taken to someplace different. :) Perhaps the power button tooltip should be called "Power-down options" instead. Microsoft, are you listening? I know I know... Feedback app. Meh.

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BajiRav

Which progress? Windows 8 kind of "progress"?

 

Why not call an apple an apple? Why all of a sudden change the normal shutdown by something else? A shutdown is a shutdown. It's not an hybrid whatever. An hybrid whatever should be called an hybrid whatever. Why not simply add a new option to the power menu and give the users the option to make it the default behavior if they like it? Have a nice video starting upon installation telling them about the new option added and how to make it the default behavior..

 

The first time i installed Windows 8 before going to bed i did a shutdown of my gaming computer cause my gaming computer is kind of loud and i don't leave it open when I'm not using it (mostly always using my laptop when not gaming). I was surprised that all my case fans were still spinning (my MB is old). I &*(*("&/*&/"* lost about 30 minutes of my time to figure out what was going on. And I'm a *&*&*&?%&? computer engineer.

 

The problem of Windows 8 was not the users. It was the OS itself. It cannot be said enough times. Hope MS will do the things right with Windows 10 and not listen to Windows 8 apologists. I have nothing against change as long as it's not forced upon me.

It is progress when my PC boots faster than it used to with Windows 7. I haven't had any problems with hybrid sleep so don't have any comments about rest of your post.
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+warwagon

It is progress when my PC boots faster than it used to with Windows 7. I haven't had any problems with hybrid sleep so don't have any comments about rest of your post.

 

I wouldn't say  it boots faster than Windows 7. Because that implies it's actually doing a full boot, which it technically isn't doing. :D

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eddman

I think you're right, but I don't think the name should have shutdown in it. I think shutdown should be shutdown and act as it always has. I think we need a completely new term. I've been crunching my brain as to what I would personally call it.

 

I personally wouldn't use anything with the word hybrid or Hibernation. Because if you ask anyone what a bear does he hibernates, which implies he goes to sleep and uses very little energy. But not the same thing when it comes to a PC.

 

In the case of a PC you can unplug it so it uses no energy. It's pretty much a dead bear. That needs to be resuscitated :laugh:

That's exactly the thing. You brought up good examples. PC hibernation isn't the same as real-life hibernation. If we think about it, even full PC "shutdown" isn't exactly the same as real-life "shutting something down". They are similar, but not the same.

 

Is a reactor shutdown exactly the same as a PC shutdown? No, and it can never be the same, even though the same word is used. It's complicated.

 

Let's take full PC shutdown, again. Does it really mean the PC is completely off and zero power is used? Actually, no. I shutdown my computer (fully), then take a look at my graphics card board and low and behold, the LED lights are on. Yes, the power consumption is extremely low, but there is power, nonetheless. That's also the reason things like WoL work. It's just a technicality, but you get my point. Try explaining that to average users.

 

Nothing can ever be made completely idiot-proof. I still think that it's users' responsibility to not click "shutdown" when asked to "restart" and that it's also certain technicians' and geeks' fault for failing to make them understand that "restart means restart."

 

You mentioned using a completely new and different word instead of "hybrid shutdown". I agree, it will make the distinction, but it'd also cause even more confusion among those users who couldn't tell the difference between shutdown and hibernate to begin with.

 

Honestly, there is no winning this. Users will be users and will always find ways to mess things up.

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+warwagon
Let's take full PC shutdown, again. Does it really mean the PC is completely off and zero power is used? Actually, no. I shutdown my computer (fully), then take a look at my graphics card board and low and behold, the LED lights are on. Yes, the power consumption is extremely low, but there is power, nonetheless. That's also the reason things like WoL work. It's just a technicality, but you get my point. Try explaining that to average users.

 

Good point, but at the same time that's only because it's still plugged in. If you were to unplug it then then it would be consuming no power, other than the CMOS batter.

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HawkMan

When an average person shuts down / turns off their lawn mower, car or their truck, It shuts off. When they go to turn it back on a day later it doesn't start up any faster. All They understand is, upon turning them back on after turning them off, they are "restarting" them.

 

 

well actually. to continue with that analogy, yes it does. the correct comparison for a reset restart is that they turn it off, remove the fuel and sparkplug and maybe even put in the oil that you put in engines when putting them away for winter.

 

shutting down means one thing, turning off the power. Never has it mean more never will it. hybrid shutdown is a shutdown, hibernation is also a shutdown.

They don't need to understand how shutdown works. They just need to understand that when a program, windows update or another person asks them to "restart", they should do a damn restart.

 

PC support and repair isn't my permanent job, but I do get some calls now and then, not as much as you, but honesty, whenever I've told someone to restart their computer, they just do that, and not go the long route of shutting down, reaching the power button and turning it back on again.

 

I also always tell everyone to "restart" if they encounter problems. I don't remember saying to "shutdown" to fix things, even though it was pretty much the same as restarting up to windows 7.

 

This whole discussion is pointless. Fast startup is already here and apparently is going to stay too. Some people just need to learn one simple thing: "If having problems, then restart. If asked to restart? then do a restart. Shutdown, only when you're done using your computer."

 

Maybe MS could add a "Hybrid shutdown" option to the power menu, besides "shutdown", whenever the "fast startup" option is enabled, but you can be pretty sure that it'd confuse people even more and those people who couldn't tell the difference between the words "shutdown" and "restart", wouldn't be able to tell the difference between hybrid and non-hybrid either.

 

Those kind of people who call you, might still click "hybrid shutdown", even if you ask them to restart. There are no guarantees with them.

 

Windows 8 and up will force a restart or shutdown with reset upon windows updates that require it anyway.

 

so all computers are reset at least once every month anyway. which is more than enough.

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