Internet is the killer app and it's your ISP who is holding you back

[jasondefaoite]

A official and announced feature is a feature for the gullible? I'm not even going to expand on that. You just sit in your bubble.

 

The 2 points which you made are more convenient with digital and gives you no chance to actually break the disc. Why the hate?

 

Family Sharing was what made online check-in, that with digital game library. So you are excluding the main point to why an online check-in was there in the first place and disregarding it as a feature for the gullible? Enough said.

 

Also regarding the 360 games market. The games on-demand feature isn't a requirement for games and games get selected to go on there a long time after games release. Whereas with the X1, its a requirement for every game to be featured as a digital download as day one. This will drive sales away from the retailer which will drive more competition due to downloading online being more convenient. With power away from the retailer and with MS having more control over of the actual sale of games, publishers will be more leveraging in regarding deductions to their sales online since they don't have to think about the distribution, production and the actual physical copy with the margin of the retailer. Simples.

 

If this DRM future, with MS monetising every aspect of what you can now do for free on the 360 was so great, why did MS not give the customers the option?

 

Allow disks to be used as before, exactly as they are in the 360. If you want the ability to lock a game to your XBL account, along with associated limitations, buy a digital download.

 

The reason is simply very few in their right mind would go with the limitations of the digital download. The only way this would work for MS was to force this. But then why change direction? Why reverse. Simply put, Sony didn't follow MS down DRM lane.

 

Sony gave both retailers and people not wanting the limitations an out. You believe the retailers would stock Xbox ones if MS were looking to screw them out of games sales going forward? These retailers would have pushed the sales of the PS4.

Xbox one wouldn't be DOA, as I do believe the fans of the XBOX would buy it regardless. So year one sales I could see being even between the PS4 and X1. However, Year 2 onwards ... bye bye MS.

 

And yes, feature for gullible. You need to open you eyes to exactly what MS said and refused to answer, then look at this feature logically. If you really believe it was going to allow 11 people to complete a single player game from a single sale ... you are in the bubble.

[MikeChipshop Member]

I'm not trying to say that ALL DRM is bad. But some parts of the DRM in X1 is too much. I was trying to prove a point that because of these measures people are kicking and screaming about the X1, and not because of their ISP's.

I understand DRM is necessary, but not too much or people will see it as the devil in the end (sort of speaking).

 

That we can agree on.

 

At the end of the day MS has gone from polar opposites and their PR has been atrocious.

At first when the rumours of always online came around, i was like "Well looks like a PS4 for me then" as i have a pretty ###### connection up here but i didn't blame MS, no i blamed my ISP and the UK communications infrastructure. In the same way that i can't use Netflix because of the bad connection, i don't blame Netflix, i blame BT and the British government.

[Nick H. Supervisor]

But surely someone has to make the first move? If it was left up to ISP's we probably wouldn't have gone beyond dial-up.

Aha! Brilliant, a new point that hasn't gone round in circles. :laugh:

You're right, someone has to make the first move. However, the idea that ISP's want us to be on dial-up doesn't work too well. Let's say that you're an ISP and I'm a different ISP. We start by offering the exact same packages. But then one day you decide to upgrade your network, and I notice that people are moving from my ISP to you because they want faster speeds. It is now up to me to upgrade my network to keep my customers, else I will go out of business. Microsoft has absolutely no sway over me in this matter, my customers do.

Coming back to the subject at hand, the customers should be able to sway Microsoft, Microsoft shouldn't expect the customers to bow to their choices. This topic is saying that I should be complaining at my ISP for Microsoft's decision, and I just don't understand how that works. That would be like someone coming in to my office and blaming me because their bank account is missing 500CHF.

The point is moot, anyway. As has been said, no one has had a problem with an Internet connection. The issues people had are with Microsoft's restrictions that they are trying to impose, which to an extent relate to having an Internet connection.

EDIT: Spelling mistakes abound there. It must have been a long day...

[JonnyLH]

If this DRM future, with MS monetising every aspect of what you can now do for free on the 360 was so great, why did MS not give the customers the option?

 

Allow disks to be used as before, exactly as they are in the 360. If you want the ability to lock a game to your XBL account, along with associated limitations, buy a digital download.

 

The reason is simply very few in their right mind would go with the limitations of the digital download. The only way this would work for MS was to force this. But then why change direction? Why reverse. Simply put, Sony didn't follow MS down DRM lane.

 

Sony gave both retailers and people not wanting the limitations an out. You believe the retailers would stock Xbox ones if MS were looking to screw them out of games sales going forward? These retailers would have pushed the sales of the PS4.

Xbox one wouldn't be DOA, as I do believe the fans of the XBOX would buy it regardless. So year one sales I could see being even between the PS4 and X1. However, Year 2 onwards ... bye bye MS.

 

And yes, feature for gullible. You need to open you eyes to exactly what MS said and refused to answer, then look at this feature logically. If you really believe it was going to allow 11 people to complete a single player game from a single sale ... you are in the bubble.

Oh right, so your not someone who is disgruntled by the DRM policies but a Playstation fanboy? Makes more sense.

 

Offering a digital download which has different rights to the disc bought creates a fragmented and confusing platform for everyone involved. Your not going to see it happen, it'll be a nightmare economically.

 

They never refused to answer, just terrible PR which gave misleading answers.

 

The quote I made in bold, with a disc based copy you can have an infinite people completing a game on a single copy. Your point is hypocritical and invalid.

 

The PS4 is DOA if it can't hit 60fps in games on launch, or even 30fps like its struggling to do now.

[jasondefaoite]

You're just holding on to the fallacy that all DRM is bad, well i hate to say this and it's not going to make me any friends around here but, all DRM is not bad.

 

DRM = Digital Rights Management. The continued use and expansion of the digital world relies upon a solid implementation of digital rights, fact.

 

I don't think he is. The Xbox 360 has DRM. The game disk is locked to prevent copying. The license is tied to the disk. I don't hear any one kicking up a fuss about the inability to copy a game using a DVD writer. People can understand the reason for that to be there.

 

People don't really understand why MS wanted to lock down the games, to limit your ability to sell the game on, to share it to a friend more than once. Over reaching DRM is bad.

[MikeChipshop Member]

Aha! Brilliant, a new point that hasn't gone round in circles. :laugh:

You're right, someone has to make the first move. However, the idea that ISP's want us to be on dial-up doesn't work to well. Let's say that your an ISP and I'm a different ISP. We start by offering the exact same packages. But then one day you decide to upgrade your network, and I notice that people are moving from my ISP to you because they want faster speeds. It is now up to me to upgrade my network to keep my customers, else I will go out of business. Microsoft has absolutely no sway over me in this matter, my customers do.

 

Correct,  my anology was pretty bad there haha

 

What i was trying to get at is i totally believe that MS (and it didn't have to just be MS it could have been Sony, Google etc) were trying to push forward with technology in a way that should have forced broadband suppliers to sit down and listen to the consumers.

Consumer use drives companies to improve their services and i just don;t see ISP's improving their services first, i feel they need a kick to get moving.

[jasondefaoite]

Oh right, so your not someone who is disgruntled by the DRM policies but a Playstation fanboy? Makes more sense.

 

Offering a digital download which has different rights to the disc bought creates a fragmented and confusing platform for everyone involved. Your not going to see it happen, it'll be a nightmare economically.

 

They never refused to answer, just terrible PR which gave misleading answers.

 

The quote I made in bold, with a disc based copy you can have an infinite people completing a game on a single copy. Your point is hypocritical and invalid.

 

The PS4 is DOA if it can't hit 60fps in games on launch, or even 30fps like its struggling to do now.

 

Nope. Xbox original and 360 owner. Never had a PS before in my life. Was Sega before MS (Megadrive, Saturn). So so wrong. Sorry, no easy out for you here.

 

Yes they did refuse to answer. Watch Major Nelsons interview from E3 on this specific question.

 

The point is valid, and you have no answer for it.

[JonnyLH]

Nope. Xbox original and 360 owner. Never had a PS before in my life. Was Sega before MS (Megadrive, Saturn). So so wrong. Sorry, no easy out for you here.

 

Yes they did refuse to answer. Watch Major Nelsons interview from E3 on this specific question.

 

The point is valid, and you have no answer for it.

They don't refuse to answer based on it being a stupid answer, its because they haven't been told what to say publicly on something that hasn't been clarified officially. 

 

You've still not turned around telling me why I'm wrong? You've just ignored all my posts and points and tried to return with something to try and bring out cracks in my reasoning. So unless you've got something constructive to return back which makes me think about the points I've made, then I'm outta here. You even made a post a couple back which stated wrong facts which I've clarified with you before.

[jasondefaoite]

They don't refuse to answer based on it being a stupid answer, its because they haven't been told what to say publicly on something that hasn't been clarified officially. 

 

 

Wait. Let me see if I understand what you are saying now. They didn't refuse to answer because it was a stupid question, but instead refused to answer because they didn't know what to say. Ok. Gotcha.

 

But..

 

 

They never refused to answer, just terrible PR which gave misleading answers.

 

 

As for...

You've still not turned around telling me why I'm wrong? You've just ignored all my posts and points and tried to return with something to try and bring out cracks in my reasoning. So unless you've got something constructive to return back which makes me think about the points I've made, then I'm outta here. You even made a post a couple back which stated wrong facts which I've clarified with you before.

 

I've ignored all your posts? Jesus H Christ. I've done my best to reply to each point you made, breaking apart the quotes to answer them. Can't do any more than that. Please have another read :)

[JonnyLH]

Wait. Let me see if I understand what you are saying now. They didn't refuse to answer because it was a stupid question, but instead refused to answer because they didn't know what to say. Ok. Gotcha.

 

But..

 

 

 

 

As for...

 

I've ignored all your posts? Jesus H Christ. I've done my best to reply to each point you made, breaking apart the quotes to answer them. Can't do any more than that. Please have another read :)

There's 2 differences.

 

1. Refusing to answer because the answer would give a negative impact and they simply don't want to say

2. Refusing to answer because they haven't been publically told what to say regarding the difficult subject matter

 

So yes, you've pointed out that my word choice previously isn't the best. Although, my point still stands.

 

So, whats your views on having a infinite amount of times you can lend a game out on a disc for that person to complete single player on? Can you really believe MS would do such a thing??!?!

 

How about the lower game prices with business logic?

My point is, these points I made which you haven't replied to breaks your fundamental argument around family sharing and the whole online-based platform. So you don't have an argument anymore. Family sharing would of existed and would of been a good addition and games would of been cheaper and better quality for the consumer, creating a healthy platform. Online check-in is needed for those features, thats why I agree with it.

[red.]

I haven't read the entire thread but regarding your point about lower prices for digital content, i presume you mean that by cutting out the retailers, publishers and devs can get more of the share and therefore cut game prices? If so, shouldn't we already be seeing this? Because, at the moment you can get the disc based versions cheaper (in some cases by quite a difference) than the digital prices.

[jasondefaoite]

There's 2 differences.

 

1. Refusing to answer because the answer would give a negative impact and they simply don't want to say

2. Refusing to answer because they haven't been publically told what to say regarding the difficult subject matter

 

So yes, you've pointed out that my word choice previously isn't the best. Although, my point still stands.

 

Why is it difficult? It is because the answer is something people don't want but MS would force it on them anyways?

 

 

 

 

 

So, whats your views on having a infinite amount of times you can lend a game out on a disc for that person to complete single player on? Can you really believe MS would do such a thing??!?!

 

I know where you are going here. Forget lending, look at the game rental companies. How many are playing from a single disk there?

 

Do they like this? Nope. There are some **** n bull stories about how the publisher deserves a cut from the follow on sales. And screw lending/retail. Let's limit lending to a single time, and selling the game, well we'll let the publisher decide this. Oh btw ... rental is dead.

 

Finally they can implement something to lock this down and limit it with the internet ... hell yes. But since people are used to this model, this would only work if MS forced this on them (no options... fragmentation my ass) and Sony did the same (no options). Whooops.

 

So, you may believe Family Sharing will allow 11 people to complete a game from a single purchase, because much more could be done in the past (rentals etc). I disagree.

They now have the tools to lock this down, and that is what they are doing. You said it yourself. They can't answer questions on this because the answer would be not what people want to hear. That's why it is a difficult subject. The reason MS had a PR nightmare on this is because they are tying themselves in knots trying to answer questions on the negative aspects of the X1 without it sounding negative.

 

 

How about the lower game prices with business logic?

 

Answered that already. Why do we need to wait for this in the future? Why aren't X1 games already cheaper than the current 360 games?

 

 

Question for you to answer. If this future you see is so great, why did MS reverse course and go back to how it was done with the 360?

[trag3dy]

Sharing your games with 10 friends and a full digital library with Steam like sales isn't a benefit to you?

 

Also, please inform me why adding the online check-in benefits MS?

 

Where did they ever say they were going to have steam like sales?

[xWhiplash]

Where did they ever say they were going to have steam like sales?

 

Agreed.  Xbox One marketplace has no competition.  You cannot buy digital Xbox One games from other digital distributors.  

 

Steam does have competition.  

[Showan]

my wording could have been much better, but i still stand by this.