Clamp down on Real World Issues

[SiCKX]

Sorry if your 16 and still believe in Santa Clause

 

your an idiot for having them ;)

 

I reckon I'd have been on your side of the river, but that sumbeetch grammar flop made me abandon that particular thought. It don't look like a typo to me.

 

*spits tobacco

 

God hoopity damn, now please don't jump on me with nazi grammar accusations sir, i'm just trying to make a funny 'ere.

[Eric Veteran]

^

 

The original post is your friend. This is so a message can be delivered with the reasonable expectation that it was read.

[+BudMan MVC]

My grammar faux pas has been corrected SiCkX, thank you for calling me on it ;)  In some cultures I should be taken out and whipped for such a gaffe. 

[compl3x]

Of course you werent aware of this  :rolleyes:

 

Other then that good work! People should respect other people's beliefs 

 

 

What exactly have I done? Offer honest opinions on subjects I find interesting? I guess I Should just be banned outright.  :rolleyes:

 

 

This kind of seems like some people don't like that other members don't hold their pet beliefs and ideas in as high regard as they do so they whine about it. Engaging in personal attacks or Ad Hominem isn't on, but stating someone's idea, opinion, or belief is inaccurate, uncorroborated, misguided or ignorant is just part of discussion. If you care about the belief or idea enough you'll defend it, if you can't defend it then you should re-examine why you hold it. :whistle:

[Vykranth]

I have high doubts that the disclaimer-type message is going to make people behave in that sub-forum

 

After lurking in some threads regarding recent events, I have found the same arguments and points and fallacies filled with even more vitriol than a few years ago.

I am flabbergasted by some of the answers I have read there.

As much as it is normal for people to discuss day-to-day real world events, I am beginning to wonder if RWI is still adding value to the site.

 

If that sub-forum is causing too much trouble for the moderation team, nuke it from orbit and be done with it.

[Dashel]

Another management decision that may feel good but does nothing to address the problem.  Maybe if you actually had listened to feedback you've been getting for years regarding the main problems in said forum you wouldn't have driven away quality posters that actually have made meaningful contributions instead of the lump and dump strategy that only fuels said trolls and has created the very atmosphere you say you are fed up with.  All blame for these issues, that are spilling into the other forums at an increasing pace are YOUR fault.

 

RWI needed editors, not hypersensitive, know-nothing mods who can't handle the silly policies you keep handing down from above.

 

Neobond, its clear you and many of the supposedly 'overworked' mods are burnt out.  You can scream at the grass to grow all you want.

 

Aethenar, Bud, and TPreston are quite right in their assessment.  As long as Neowin continues its trajectory of prizing form over content and respect over reason, this will continue to get worse in every forum.

[+Warwagon MVC]

Today I got a PM from a mod... I saw it arrive on my email alert and the first thing I thought was "OH GOD! What Did I do or say now!" ... ended up they wanted to tell me I won last months photo challenge... Hurray!

 

I think you should have taken a lesson from the show dexter and made the password "######ingpassword" HA :D

[Andre S. Veteran]

I think this password thing is silly and won't do anything. I would also like to reiterate that I don't like the pinned garbage collection threads (omg do I sound like a programmer or what?). 

 

That said, the main problem of these forums is that they're dominated by a handful of members who have apparently little better in life to do than post their meaningless, poorly argued and often negative opinion on every single topic, whether they know anything special about it or not, and attempt to refute anyone expressing a different opinion with extreme resolve and recurring poor argumentation. It's ironic to see some of these members come to complain here that asking them to be polite might infringe on their ability to express themselves rationally, when there's so little logic and reason to their usual drivel.

 

I personally think Neowin would be better off without RWI altogether and focus on what it excels at, i.e. tech news and support.

[Eric Veteran]

The password is not there to keep you out. It's there so you read the notice that's on the page. Otherwise the actual password wouldn't be at the top of that page. :P

[Steven P. Administrators]

Where did I say that this will magically solve everything? All this serves to do is allow us to relay a message to whoever wants to go political on my TECH forum. Sorry guys, but although the section is there and we do our best to moderate it, our first love is all things tech. We don't have any moderators recruited because of their fantastic contributions in RWI.

 

It's sort of like the mini nag message above all editors now. THINK before you post. In an ideal world we shouldn't even need that either.

 

Some people read waaay too much into things :P

[Noir Angel]

The level of babying here really is completely and utterly ridiculous, my avatar wasn't even offensive and it got disabled, and from what I can gather other people's have as well. It really is completely silly, most of the people doing debate in RWI are adults and they're all being treated like children, but then censorship just seems to be par for the course here. I was about to sub as I thought the staffing has been a bit more fair here of late, glad I didn't waste my money  :rolleyes:

[techbeck]

most of the people doing debate in RWI are adults and they're all being treated like children

they may be adults but lots are acting like children

[Steven P. Administrators]

The level of babying here really is completely and utterly ridiculous, my avatar wasn't even offensive and it got disabled, and from what I can gather other people's have as well. It really is completely silly, most of the people doing debate in RWI are adults and they're all being treated like children, but then censorship just seems to be par for the course here. I was about to sub as I thought the staffing has been a bit more fair here of late, glad I didn't waste my money  :rolleyes:

We're a tech site though, so making a political statement is quite a bit far of the mark here.

 

I'm not saying avatars can't be off topic, but maybe leave the political statements at the door OR in the forum section where it's contained?

[Marshall Veteran]

It boils down to a simple choice, do something proactive to clean up the community or let it turn into 4chan. I think most reasonable people would choose the former.

[spaceelf]

It boils down to a simple choice, do something proactive to clean up the community or let it turn into 4chan. I think most reasonable people would choose the former.

Just putting the check there is going to make people avoid the forum IMO.  That was my reaction at any rate...though I'm hardly a regular.

 

If people weren't being reasonable anyway (and obviously they weren't or this wouldn't be an issue) I would just expect it to continue...with less people active.

 

We'll see though, hope it works out for ya.

[Charisma Veteran]

Just putting the check there is going to make people avoid the forum IMO.  That was my reaction at any rate...though I'm hardly a regular.

 

If people weren't being reasonable anyway (and obviously they weren't or this wouldn't be an issue) I would just expect it to continue...with less people active.

 

We'll see though, hope it works out for ya.

Frankly, if a reminder to basically "please don't be a douche" turns someone away... maybe... that's for the best?

[spaceelf]

Frankly, if a reminder to basically "please don't be a douche" turns someone away... maybe... that's for the best?

I'm just saying it may have farther reaching effects than the intended audience.  I would at least hope if the mods considered me a douche they'd tell me.  :D

[+Frank B. Subscriber²]

I'm just saying it may have farther reaching effects than the intended audience.  I would at least hope if the mods considered me a douche they'd tell me.  :D

 

Having been on staff some years ago I can tell you there's a difference between what staff think of certain users in private fora and what they let the public know they think of them.

[spaceelf]

Having been on staff some years ago I can tell you there's a difference between what staff think of certain users in private fora and what they let the public know they think of them.

I was a mod on another forum, I know this.  I also know I have been unreasonable at times.  I try not to make it a habit though so...anyway, moving on...

 

Would just rather a gentle nudge than people muttering behind my back is all.

[compl3x]

We're a tech site though, so making a political statement is quite a bit far of the mark here.

 

I'm not saying avatars can't be off topic, but maybe leave the political statements at the door OR in the forum section where it's contained?

 

 

Some people have pro-Christian signatures & member titles, would you erase them because this is a tech site? I mean no disrespect, nor am I trying to be a jerk, I am just curious about what statements are considered acceptable, and which ones aren't.

 

I wish we had some examples of what complaints were made so it was a little clearer what "disrespectful of other's beliefs" was.

 

 

 

The reason for this is so we can relay a notice to members to respect the beliefs of others,

 

 

I post a lot of news in the official religion topic and participate in discussions in it often. If I post something critical of religion X is that disrespectful? I am sure the person who practices religion X thinks so, but does the staff view it that way? It is kind of hard to have official topics which are very controversial and tell members "try not to post things others might find offensive". I've got to be honest, that balancing act seems impossible.

 

I think it might be easier for members to exercise a little self-moderation and avoid topics where the discussions might get a little too adult for their liking. 

[Nick H. Supervisor]

I think it might be easier for members to exercise a little self-moderation and avoid topics where the discussions might get a little too adult for their liking.

Self-moderation doesn't seem to work for some people it seems. Like Neobond said, that's why we have moderators.

[Tom]

"to respect the beliefs of others"

I do not agree with that statement in the least, so your saying racists beliefs should be respected??

I agree you have the right to believe what you want, but that does not mean I can not criticize or ridicule nonsense.

Sorry if you're 16 and still believe in Santa Clause you can not expect to not be called on this, same goes for your nonsense belief in some sky fairy.

There is no reason for name calling or threats of physical harm, etc. But sorry if I think your a moron for holding a belief that you can not prove -- then I have just as much right to state my belief that you're an idiot, as you have to hold such nonsense to be true ;)

It can be tough to moderate discussions of this nature - but to be honest, if can not tolerate someone not having the same beliefs as you, or someone calling you on yours that you can not defend in a civil manner. Maybe you shouldn't be on the internet in the first place.

"Everyone's opinions should be respected."

Then you need to respect my opinion that your beliefs are nonsense and your an idiot for having them ;)

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

It seems Neowin is more in favour of 'respect' than it is for reason, rationality and logic. 

 

 

How RWI should be moderated -------

Scenario 1:

Person 1: Santa Claus exists and I'm best friends with his favourite elf. We had dinner last night.

Person 2: You're an idiot. Here is a list of reasoned, evidenced arguments as to why you're an idiot for thinking that; ....

 

This is okay. -- Person 2 called Person 1 an idiot but reasoned as to why the idea he held was moronic.

Scenario 2:

Person 1: Santa Claus exists and I'm best friends with his favourite elf. We had dinner last night.

Person 2: LOL YOU'RE A MORON. LOL U SO STUPID. OMG THE STUPID HURTS.

 

This is not okay. -- Person 2 just outright flamed him with no reasoned counter-argument.

[Andre S. Veteran]

How RWI should be moderated -------

Scenario 1:

Person 1: Santa Claus exists and I'm best friends with his favourite elf. We had dinner last night.

Person 2: You're an idiot. Here is a list of reasoned, evidenced arguments as to why you're an idiot for thinking that; ....

 

This is okay. -- Person 2 called Person 1 an idiot but reasoned as to why the idea he held was moronic.

 

Ad hominem

 

An ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"[1]), short for argumentum ad hominem, is an argument made personally against an opponent instead of against their argument.[2] Ad hominem reasoning is normally described as an informal fallacy,[3][4][5] more precisely an irrelevance.

 

"You're an idiot" is an Ad hominem. It adds nothing of relevance to the discussion, cannot be supported nor defended against (how do you really know the person is an idiot? how is he supposed to refute that?), is insulting and simply against forum rules. You can certainly make the exact same case for your interlocutor's lack of rational basis without attacking the person. Using this type of cheap tactic in a discussion only shows lack of confidence in your own argumentation.

[compl3x]

Self-moderation doesn't seem to work for some people it seems. Like Neobond said, that's why we have moderators.

 

 

True. But you can't enter into a topic which might upset you, then report the participants of the topic for saying things you didn't like. Moderators should enforce rules, not protect feelings.

 

 

Scenario 1:

Person 1: Santa Claus exists and I'm best friends with his favourite elf. We had dinner last night.

Person 2: You're an idiot. Here is a list of reasoned, evidenced arguments as to why you're an idiot for thinking that; ....

 

This is okay. -- Person 2 called Person 1 an idiot but reasoned as to why the idea he held was moronic.

Scenario 2:

Person 1: Santa Claus exists and I'm best friends with his favourite elf. We had dinner last night.

Person 2: LOL YOU'RE A MORON. LOL U SO STUPID. OMG THE STUPID HURTS.

 

This is not okay. -- Person 2 just outright flamed him with no reasoned counter-argument.

 

I think calling someone an idiot is unhelpful and will result in a hostile response, which will in-turn just end in a childish slinging match.I don't think that is an acceptable or reasonable response to an idea or opinion you find disagree with. If you think what someone has posted is wrong, and you're willing to offer a counter point, you should do so without name-calling. .... You moron...

 

 

Kidding!  :laugh:

Ad hominem

 

"You're an idiot" is an Ad hominem. 

 

Exactly. You might think someone is a moron, but stating it in a response will only result in childish bickering.

[Charisma Veteran]

Exactly. You might think someone is a moron, but stating it in a response will only result in childish bickering.

This. If someone feels attacked, it immediately shuts down any chance at logical discussion and their defenses kick on. Instead of calling them an idiot, which is a closed-minded approach anyway, ask them why they feel that way? What brought them to that conclusion? Get them talking about their reasons, maybe you'll learn something, or maybe they will. No, this won't always happen, as some people really are just trolls--but it's well-documented (and just common sense) that someone will only get defensive if you start attacking and disrespecting them, and then that shuts down any chance of them listening to you straight away.

 

Plus, *gasp* I know this is crazy, but what if you do get a good conversation going and it turns out maybe they're right? Maybe they have a point you'd never thought about before. You don't stand to lose much by at least finding out how other people think, and it can broaden your own perspective. :)