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Clamp down on Real World Issues

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gameboy1977    886

Yes that is true. we respect deaf or disable people in the world as we respect religion.

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HSoft    400

You're an idiot. Here is a list of reasoned, evidenced arguments as to why you're an idiot for thinking that; ....

 

This is okay.

This is the problem with the RWI forum.  That is absolutely not OK.  Why do you think its ok to call someone an idiot versus just presenting your argument?

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Andre S.    1,923

Yes that is true. we respect deaf or disable people in the world as we respect religion.

The rampant atheist fundamentalism and condescension towards religion on these forums is the entire reason for the existence of the "Religion Thread" which is just a damage control type of measure. It's simply impossible to discuss this topic with calm and moderation on these boards. This post is just another example of it.

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+Bryan R.    1,147

We're not going to be successful in teaching proper debate skills to those who clearly lack them. We simply need to enforce the rules and not deal with their b***hing. Call someone an idiot? Well don't get butt hurt when you get a warning or whatever. It's not the world at fault for not being able to handle your superior judgment. You're just an ass. This is not directed at any one person. It's something that can be said to the overall attitude.

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techbeck    6,846
How RWI should be moderated -------

Scenario 1:

Person 1: Santa Claus exists and I'm best friends with his favourite elf. We had dinner last night.

Person 2: You're an idiot. Here is a list of reasoned, evidenced arguments as to why you're an idiot for thinking that; ....

 

This is okay. -- Person 2 called Person 1 an idiot but reasoned as to why the idea he held was moronic.

 

So calling someone an idiot and then explaining why that person is an idiot is ok just as long as there is an explanation?  Someone cannot leave out the "You're an idiot" part and just explain their side and what they believe?

 

It is name calling no matter if someone puts an explanation or not.  Names like idiot and moron have no place in an argument or a discussion.  If words like that are needed to prove a point or an argument, then that is a pretty week argument or that person does not know how to explain the argument.

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Athernar    611

This. If someone feels attacked, it immediately shuts down any chance at logical discussion and their defenses kick on. Instead of calling them an idiot, which is a closed-minded approach anyway, ask them why they feel that way? What brought them to that conclusion? Get them talking about their reasons, maybe you'll learn something, or maybe they will. No, this won't always happen, as some people really are just trolls--but it's well-documented (and just common sense) that someone will only get defensive if you start attacking and disrespecting them, and then that shuts down any chance of them listening to you straight away.

 

Plus, *gasp* I know this is crazy, but what if you do get a good conversation going and it turns out maybe they're right? Maybe they have a point you'd never thought about before. You don't stand to lose much by at least finding out how other people think, and it can broaden your own perspective. :)

 

Except there was no chance at a logical discussion in the first place, that's the whole point people have been trying to make.

 

There is no reasoned debate with the sort of people that think (for example) Islam can do no wrong in any circumstances, or that the government are using mind control beams on the general population.

 

These sort of people want one thing and one thing only, blind unwavering submission to their viewpoint. If you disagree you're either an infidel or a sheeple, and no matter what reasoned evidence to the contrary you may present, you're still an infisheeple.

 

Otherwise hey, where's the "Athernar is god and you are all his personal slaves" debate thread?

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+Bryan R.    1,147

^ So you move on. It's not your place to put them in theirs.

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techbeck    6,846

These sort of people want one thing and one thing only, blind unwavering submission to their viewpoint. If you disagree you're either an infidel or a sheeple, and no matter what reasoned evidence to the contrary you may present, you're still an infisheeple.

 

Some people are set in their views and opinions and cannot be swayed.  Nothing new.   If it is apparent that people are ignoring your comments have no intention of having a proper debate, then dont debate/converse with that person.  Like you said, some people do not want a logical discussion.  When this becomes apparent, I just stop talking/replying to that person...well, most of the time. Every now and the someone gets under my skin but hey, I am human.

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LostCat    1,267

The rampant atheist fundamentalism and condescension towards religion on these forums is the entire reason for the existence of the "Religion Thread" which is just a damage control type of measure. It's simply impossible to discuss this topic with calm and moderation on these boards. This post is just another example of it.

Normally I'd say something instead of just clicking like, but I wouldn't know where to start.

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Andre S.    1,923

Except there was no chance at a logical discussion in the first place, that's the whole point people have been trying to make.

Why bother posting if there's no chance of a logical discussion? Leave the thread - better, report it - and make better use of your time.

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+BudMan    3,459

There is a bit of difference between saying a statement or opinion is moronic or idiotic vs calling the person directly a moron or idiot. Problems come about in wording - it can be difficult to make sure your thought gets across correctly in a quick response as you do multiple things in the background.  So I will be the first to admit that use of those terms can lead down the wrong path, I have tried to not use them as often as I use to back in my getting warning days ;)

 

And I try and stay away from the purely opinion based sections like politics and religion, etc.  I gravitate towards tech only sections where things are more black and white, works or doesn't work, etc.

 

So as an example if someone setup a network with 3 layers of nat in it and could not figure out why they can not access file shares from the box behind the 3rd layer from a box behind the 1st layer, etc.  I might say that setup is moronic -- because it is ;)  This is not the same thing as saying the user is a moron.

 

Are we talking semantics - maybe..  But in my "opinion" a setup like that makes no sense and is moronic in nature - I have the right to state this opinion, just as much as the next guy has his right to state that is the best possible solution.

 

I could of said something like that setup is inefficient and has inherit flaws in its design -- but this often has less effect than the use of blunt terms ;) Blunt can be harsh, but it is also quite often the most effective way to get your point across.  People need to not take things so personal when some random username on the internet says what you did was stupid ;)

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techbeck    6,846
So as an example if someone setup a network with 3 layers of nat in it and could not figure out why they can not access file shares from the box behind the 3rd layer from a box behind the 1st layer, etc.  I might say that setup is moronic -- because it is ;)  This is not the same thing as saying the user is a moron.

 

The problem is that people take calling their setup moronic as a direct insult to them.

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Athernar    611

Some people are set in their views and opinions and cannot be swayed.  Nothing new.   If it is apparent that people are ignoring your comments have no intention of having a proper debate, then dont debate/converse with that person.  Like you said, some people do not want a logical discussion.  When this becomes apparent, I just stop talking/replying to that person...well, most of the time. Every now and the someone gets under my skin but hey, I am human.

Why bother posting if there's no chance of a logical discussion? Leave the thread - better, report it - and make better use of your time.

 

Why bother having a forum in the first place if you're just going to let a heap of quacks and extremists post their bile and nonsense unimpeded? Or what of the posters that blatantly misrepresent themselves on a subject and post outright falsehood? (Such as is oft encountered in the gaming sections)

 

While I hate to bring up a "well this place does that" type point, the facts are forums such as SomethingAwful generally enjoy a much higher standard of debate because people are held to account for what they're saying, not just how they say it.

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+BudMan    3,459

The problem is that people take calling their setup moronic as a direct insult to them.

Sounds like a personality flaw to me.. Why should I care? Maybe our problem is related to not scoring little league games and giving everyone a participation ribbon even when they came in last..

If you take some random person on the net saying your setup is moronic personal -- how and the hell are you going to function in the real world??

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techbeck    6,846

Sounds like a personality flaw to me

 

 

Possibly...just saying how people take it.  Some are sensitive.

 

Using your example, if I called someone's setup at work moronic/idiotic/stupid, that would most likely get me in trouble and sent to HR or I would get talked to by my boss.. I call people idiots all the time, but not when they are around....especially at work.  I need my job. But lets face it, some people are stupid as well as what they do/say. Lots of times, its not appropriate or warranted to call them out on it.

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+BudMan    3,459

Possibly...just saying how people take it.  Some are sensitive.

Agreed! And why should I have to coddle them? I personally could give two sh_ts if billy has a cry over my "opinion" that his setup is moronic.. I just don't have the desire or time to deal with the emotional fortitude of a 13 year old girl that just got her first period ;)

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techbeck    6,846

Agreed! And why should I have to coddle them? I personally could give two sh_ts if billy has a cry over my "opinion" that his setup is moronic.. I just don't have the desire or time to deal with the emotional fortitude of a 13 year old girl that just got her first period ;)

 

I understand.  But these days, cannot tell how someone will take a comment.  So why go there. 

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LostCat    1,267

Sounds like a personality flaw to me.. Why should I care? Maybe our problem is related to not scoring little league games and giving everyone a participation ribbon even when they came in last..

If you take some random person on the net saying your setup is moronic personal -- how and the hell are you going to function in the real world??

Where does one draw the line?  Some people might have a legitimate lack of knowledge, not intelligence.  A lot of that comes across as insulting their intelligence and is unhelpful if they need to learn something.

 

Yes, there are things that are moronic, but how would you know that if the only people you might learn from are more likely to tell you how stupid it is than tell you anything useful?

 

(Although seeing your other posts, I see I'm not going to be getting anywhere in this conversation.)

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+BudMan    3,459

than tell you anything useful?

If you don't think I post helpful and useful information, then clearly you have not read any of my posts. Even if I made some off color comment while doing it on my "opinion" of what they were trying to do or how they were going about something, etc.

 

I see I'm not going to be getting anywhere in this conversation.

To be honest - that seems like a personal shot at me.. Should I go cry about it?? ;)

That personal shot at me has gotten me all worked up, I don't know what I am going to do.. :cry:  I feel so bad, it hurts that some random username on the internet doesn't think he can hold a conversation with me or that I help anyone...  Oh the pain!!  Its like a knife in my heart :cry:

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LostCat    1,267

To be honest - that seems like a personal shot at me.. Should I go cry about it?? ;)

That personal shot at me has gotten me all worked up, I don't know what I am going to do.. :cry:  I feel so bad, it hurts that some random username on the internet doesn't think he can hold a conversation with me or that I help anyone...  Oh the pain!!  Its like a knife in my heart :cry:

Drama queen much?

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Andre S.    1,923

Why bother having a forum in the first place if you're just going to let a heap of quacks and extremists post their bile and nonsense unimpeded? Or what of the posters that blatantly misrepresent themselves on a subject and post outright falsehood? (Such as is oft encountered in the gaming sections)

If as you said there's "no chance of a logical discussion", then what are you going to do about it? Call them names? So they have an excuse to reply back with more nonsense? That's just adding fuel to the fire. Unfortunately you or anyone else is not going to put everyone back in their place, and it's not Neowin's mission to try and do that. We should encourage and foster constructive discussions and simply get rid of those who contribute nothing meaningful.

 

Ultimately it's not very important to prove anyone wrong on the internet. 

 

duty_calls.png

 

I would say SomethingAwful does better in large part because of the entry fee and also because they have much better rules, i.e. they outline what constitutes meaningful contribution to the community which we don't do. I've been saying for a while that Neowin should have a rule like this:

 

Low Content Posts: Please do not make posts containing no content (ie, "first post," "hello, I'm new here," etc.). These just litter up the forums and with over 100,000 registered users, we need to eliminate these as much as possible. If you do not like a thread, then just vote it a "1" and move on; replies consisting solely of trolling fall into this category. As a general rule, write as if you were speaking in real life to another human being. Do not use any catchphrases, memes, internet slang, or any other crap that makes you look like a 12-year old. http://www.somethingawful.com/forum-rules/forum-rules/

 

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+BudMan    3,459

Drama queen much?

Another shot -- WTF did I ever do to you... :cry:

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LostCat    1,267

Another shot -- WTF did I ever do to you... :cry:

Pretended to be insulted by a cynic stating the obvious.

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Athernar    611

If as you said there's "no chance of a logical discussion", then what are you going to do about it? Call them names? So they have an excuse to reply back with more nonsense? That's just adding fuel to the fire. Unfortunately you or anyone else is not going to put everyone back in their place, and it's not Neowin's mission to try and do that. We should encourage and foster constructive discussions and simply get rid of those who contribute nothing meaningful.

 

As a user? Either nothing or have a quick laugh at their expense before they get banned and the thread gets moved to the obligatory comedydurr section.

 

Saying things such as "foster constructive discussions" are little more than theorycraft and idealism and Neowin has far too much of that when it comes to matters such as these. Sometimes you just have to simply laugh the crazy away.

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+BudMan    3,459

Dude you must be a hoot at parties ;)

Oh I sure hope you don't take that the wrong way -- not trying to hurt your feelings or anything.

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