microsoft Xbox One Silicon Talk

[spaceelf]

My wallet already giving me attitude..

Beyond: 2 Souls

GTA V ( I hate GTA... Until I saw the online portion) 360

Brothers (Live Arcade)

Rayman

Just purchased, Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom off Live because it so cheap right now ($15)

All those are games I still want to buy... And I still have a backlog I want to get through (Looking at you Skyrim)...

I guess, things like this are a good problem to have , with the world being so crazy an all

heh I just got Tales of Vesperia, SSX, and Battleblock Theater myself.  I have a lot to play already, so hadn't planned on getting SSX but then I saw it and 'why the hell not?'  heh :)

[Yogurtmaster]

Also, I did find out something interesting for Indies.  Back in the days of having "Alpha Developer Kits" there was information saying that they had 12 Gigabytes of ram.

 

This is incorrect.  This information has been revealed by Albert Penello who is the "Director of Planning for Microsoft Xbox" and he made an interesting post about the Developer Kits and Retail is the same box.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=78827773&postcount=980

 

There are minor differences such as a male USB port on the back and the rest is just software differences.  Developer kits actually have only 8 Gigabytes of ram just like the Retail consoles.

So, this makes things even more interesting as there should not be a big difference between what the big AAA game devs get and the new indie kit that comes out next summer.

 

So, having every Xbox one as a full on developer kit is actually ground breaking too be honest.  Since there is no difference between Dev Kit and Retail Kit except software that would mean a total win for Indie developers.

 

Here is the quotes if you didn't click on the link

At this point, just about everything is running on ?near final? Hardware. What?s unique about our program this time is that Dev Kits and Retail Kits are exactly the same. 
Despite the belief, our Dev Kits DO NOT have 12gb of ram. They have 8gb, just like shipping units. So anything you see running on a black Xbox One console is the same unit we?re going to ship.

[Showan]

Also, I did find out something interesting for Indies. Back in the days of having "Alpha Developer Kits" there was information saying that they had 12 Gigabytes of ram.

This is incorrect. This information has been revealed by Albert Penello who is the "Director of Planning for Microsoft Xbox" and he made an interesting post about the Developer Kits and Retail is the same box.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=78827773&postcount=980

There are minor differences such as a male USB port on the back and the rest is just software differences. Developer kits actually have only 8 Gigabytes of ram just like the Retail consoles.

So, this makes things even more interesting as there should not be a big difference between what the big AAA game devs get and the new indie kit that comes out next summer.

So, having every Xbox one as a full on developer kit is actually ground breaking too be honest. Since there is no difference between Dev Kit and Retail Kit except software that would mean a total win for Indie developers.

Here is the quotes if you didn't click on the link

Interesting... Developing your games on a box, that to a degree, be the same box on store shelves is interesting. I don't think traditional development has been like that in years past... I could be wrong though. So instead of heavy porting, most work is done in real time? Or am I dead wrong on this?

Can someone smarter than I am answer this?...

[Yogurtmaster]

My quote isn't working on IE 11.   I would be guessing of course but I would think remote compiling.   You can remote into the box and compile the code on the Xbox one and then you could push it out to other people on your developer network as well.

 

This is only a guess.  I have done something similar on App Game Kit on the PC, but only in reverse.  It's compiled on the PC and pushed to the devices via WiFi.  Microsoft acted like the software would be on the Xbox itself.

[Alladaskill17]

But the PS4 has 18 to 12 GPU compute units and GDDR5 vs GDDR3 RAM...

PS4 lacks *ridiculous* ESRAM, it really will make a difference. But.. again, fap/###### all you want, games are what makes these consoles, so if devs are devoted & you enjoy the game who cares about similar specs (we will exclude WiiU from this debate as they truly do seem a generation behind in hardware).

[trooper11]

So that John Sell guy would be the equivalent to Mark Cerny at Sony?  I was wondering who was the 'architect' so to speak for the XB1 since Sony has made a point to get Mark out in the public as often as possible. 

[Showan]

This is coming together very nicely for Microsoft... I barely understand enough to see what's going on, to a degree.

A true multitasking box, that will never (on paper at least) see a load bar,circle etc, while navigating menus and sub menus (and no matter how many you got open), and little to no load while in game (DR3 prime example. Hopefully they can nail that frame rate to 60)

And while being instantaneous (or darn close) if a Kinect command is blurted out rather in game or out of game.

Xbox On (Kinect hears command and sees you) loads profile just like that. Xbox play DR3, instant load up, phone goes off (you get tweet or text from friend) to check out something on YouTube . Pause game, Xbox snap you tube (try to speak content that is being looked for on YouTube snap in?) play game while video loads, watching quick hint on DR3 while playing DR3 and no hiccups... Both the game and you tube channel are still crisp, and no lag, and no frame rate drops.

If I were Microsoft, I probably would held some of this closer to the chest until late September or October... For a video game console, this is some amazing thinking from the folks at Microsoft.

There are still some unknowns (still seems to be a lot of overkill under the hood from a non gaming perspective). Makes me want to go into "Conspiracy & Theory" modes... Isn't there a new Surface due out around the time the X1 comes out?. Gut feeling X1, Kinect, Surface 2, gonna be very, very tight circle. All knowing each others thoughts and actions through and through... LET ME DREAM. DON'T JUDGE ME... :-)

I know this is off topic... But Microsoft played their cards better than what people think. Their attempt at DRM, is going to get them some "special perks" for games rather people want to believe it or not. Im not a developer, but if I were and MS took a chance at DRM for me, and tried to get me some $$$ back from used games, my games will be Extra Special on the Xbox One. And I would make sure Kinect got some attention as a thank you as well...

Microsoft made themselves a martyr. And the 180 must of been ready to go from the beginning (notice how the 180 is already in place for release with the console)...

Yep I'm going into conspiracies...

[Arceles]

This discussion remembers me so much of the PS4, where the PS4 had the cell unit, which was a processor way beyond advanced that the one used on x360. Everybody first programmed for the 360 and then ported to PS3, resulting on very bad games but this was because PS3 was by itself difficult to program, let's not forget that the cell processor had 1 core and 7 "sinergic" processing units... which could be used as anything the programmer wanted. I think this time it will happen the other way around, since PS4 offers an architecture that resembles much of the PC and doesn't uses any kind of special tricks to do so. Not saying that X1 is that difficult to program... but it makes sense.

[FiB3R]

/snip

I see your point, but the Cell was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay different to program for. I don't think that is the case here.

[JonnyLH]

This discussion remembers me so much of the PS4, where the PS4 had the cell unit, which was a processor way beyond advanced that the one used on x360. Everybody first programmed for the 360 and then ported to PS3, resulting on very bad games but this was because PS3 was by itself difficult to program, let's not forget that the cell processor had 1 core and 7 "sinergic" processing units... which could be used as anything the programmer wanted. I think this time it will happen the other way around, since PS4 offers an architecture that resembles much of the PC and doesn't uses any kind of special tricks to do so. Not saying that X1 is that difficult to program... but it makes sense.

When your coding against software which utilises the hardware to its best, you don't have to worry that much about the architecture of the box. The X1 isn't a complicated architecture to code for and comparing architecture to a CPU instruction set is stupid.

Its the other way round, were already starting to see gaps between the two consoles with the recent articles and developer interviews around games on frostbite. Developers are used to ESRAM since its in the 360, if anything they can use it more now.

Im not saying the PS4 wont have any pretty games because having that extra beef in the GPU will create some very pretty results in the future, just naturally its going to take a bit longer to utilise.

[Yogurtmaster]

Sorry, I can't quote.

 

I don't think it's going to be like the PS3 at all.  The PS3 had many, many pitfalls in memory and other issues.  Even though this is more technical and not off the self, I don't see the problems that affected the PS3 affecting the Xbox One.

The reason for all of this is that Microsoft is a software developer that makes compilers and other dev tools and they hired teams at IBM as some of Microsoft's own team members in the Xbox hardware division actually previously were employees at IBM so they have connections and then AMD helped and had dedicated teams as well.

 

I really believe that the entire system from top to bottom is very well designed.  I think the PS4 went too far to try to make it too PC like and it's probably going to struggle with some higher end ports.

[HawkMan]

This discussion remembers me so much of the PS4, where the PS4 had the cell unit, which was a processor way beyond advanced that the one used on x360. Everybody first programmed for the 360 and then ported to PS3, resulting on very bad games but this was because PS3 was by itself difficult to program, let's not forget that the cell processor had 1 core and 7 "sinergic" processing units... which could be used as anything the programmer wanted. I think this time it will happen the other way around, since PS4 offers an architecture that resembles much of the PC and doesn't uses any kind of special tricks to do so. Not saying that X1 is that difficult to program... but it makes sense.

 

 

The difference is of course that the Cell was hard to program for and use, the Xbox one APU is not. Sony spent 4 or so years to create a new SDK and ready made API's to make use of the Cell, and even then it was hard to use and required special coding to make use of. MS is providing pre optimized DX SDK for the Xbox one CPU out the door, with pre optimized routines and API calls for all the advanced features of the APU so even an inexperienced game dev can use the new features right away. 

[Torolol]

as many have suspected: Kinect did connect to USB interface,

it just for some reason Microsoft decided to make the kinect 'incompatible' with USB 3 standard.

https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1161660-xbox-one-kinect-not-compatible-with-pcs/

[BajiRav]

as many have suspected: Kinect did connect to USB interface,

it just for some reason Microsoft decided to make the kinect 'incompatible' with USB 3 standard.

https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1161660-xbox-one-kinect-not-compatible-with-pcs/

I think it will be similar to Kinect v1 where they had an adapter to provide power.

[Showan]

Xbox One also prepared for the cord cutters

Right now, no. If you look at what?s going on in TV there?s a lot of innovation and a lot of shaking things up. Cable TV and app based TV and IP based TV and who knows what?s next. We?re not just focusing on current TV models because those models are changing.

So you?re prepared for the so-called cable cutters?

Absolutely. Our vision is that these new TVs systems are all blended. The idea is to use them all. With the HDMI in, the system will adapt to the future. HDMI via cable box for now, but we have Xfinity and HBO Go already. The Xbox One can use any broadcast source that they come up with.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/matthickey/2013/08/30/pax-microsofts-albert-penello-on-xbox-ones-creation-cable-cutters-a-launch-date-and-ben-affleck-as-batman/2/

[vcfan]

The difference is of course that the Cell was hard to program for and use, the Xbox one APU is not. Sony spent 4 or so years to create a new SDK and ready made API's to make use of the Cell, and even then it was hard to use and required special coding to make use of. MS is providing pre optimized DX SDK for the Xbox one CPU out the door, with pre optimized routines and API calls for all the advanced features of the APU so even an inexperienced game dev can use the new features right away. 

 

even the semiaccurate article points out that the esram usage for example is managed by directx, where the coder doesnt even have to code specifically against it.

 

 

This 32MB of embedded SRAM is not directly contiguous with the main DRAM but the MMUs have the ability to make it appear so in a transparent manner to the programmer.

While it is multi-purpose and Microsoft said it was not restricted in any specific manner, there are some tasks like D3D surface creation that default to it. If a coder wants to do something different they are fully able to, why you would want to however is a different question entirely.

[trooper11]

as many have suspected: Kinect did connect to USB interface,

it just for some reason Microsoft decided to make the kinect 'incompatible' with USB 3 standard.

https://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1161660-xbox-one-kinect-not-compatible-with-pcs/

 

 

I think it will be similar to Kinect v1 where they had an adapter to provide power.

 

 

 

These posts got me thinking.

 

Has it been confirmed if Kinect uses a propriety connector or is it standard usb like the first Kinect?

 

If the 'incompatibility' is simply the fact that MS will not be selling an external power supply for it, then that is much better.  That would mean all one would need is a modded power supply, maybe a modded Kinect v1 power supply, to use it on the pc.

[Showan]

These posts got me thinking.

Has it been confirmed if Kinect uses a propriety connector or is it standard usb like the first Kinect?

If the 'incompatibility' is simply the fact that MS will not be selling an external power supply for it, then that is much better. That would mean all one would need is a modded power supply, maybe a modded Kinect v1 power supply, to use it on the pc.

When Major Nelson did the unboxing of the Xbox One, you can see that the Kinect ports is not shaped like a standard USB Port. It may be USB 3.0, but the shaping of the port is not.

[BajiRav]

When Major Nelson did the unboxing of the Xbox One, you can see that the Kinect ports is not shaped like a standard USB Port. It may be USB 3.0, but the shaping of the port is not.

Kinect V1 is exactly same. It uses standard USB protocol but a propitiatory adapter.

[Showan]

Come on Microsoft!!! What are you doing speaking on such stuff like this now... Now my geeky "how it works side" is just as excited as my gamer side...

[spaceelf]

Come on Microsoft!!! What are you doing speaking on such stuff like this now... Now my geeky "how it works side" is just as excited as my gamer side...

Wait they're getting people excited about their product?

 

For shame ;)

[trooper11]

Kinect V1 is exactly same. It uses standard USB protocol but a propitiatory adapter.

 

 

Exactly, I forgot about the unboxing video.  Could anyone tell if the shape of the connector is the same as the first Kinect?

 

It is probably wishful thinking, but if its the same shape, then the same adaptor might be usable.

[spaceelf]

Exactly, I forgot about the unboxing video.  Could anyone tell if the shape of the connector is the same as the first Kinect?

 

It is probably wishful thinking, but if its the same shape, then the same adaptor might be usable.

Pretty sure it isn't.  We don't even know if it's actually standard USB3, it might have proprietary encoding or extra power delivery or require higher end functions of USB3 that are not required by the base standard.

[trooper11]

Yeah, we may not know for sure until its actually released.

[George P Global Moderator]

You could just look at the shots of the back of the XB1 and see what the Kinect v2 port looks like to compare it to the back of the 360s port.