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BillyJack    41

Who said no drivers? That doesn't make any sense.

 

ObiWanToby did in this post.

 

I do not think they can compete. I am sure if they tailor the OS correctly, towards gaming, the experience could be great. No hassle with drivers ... etc. Repi (twttier.com/repi) , one of the designers of frostbite says, the best driver is no driver!

 

Titles like BF4 will not come to this platform. I can see a few, but it is hard to succeed when you do not have the games!

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trooper11    1,096

I have to say that this second day of announcements was much les interesting then the first day.

 

Sure, they confirmed dedicated hardware was coming, but we got basically 0 specifics, giving us no real idea how it will work, nothing to get excited about.

 

I would have rather today be to show us a real demo of SteamOS.

 

I'm starting to get the idea that none of this stuff is ready to show yet and that they felt some desperate need to announce now, even if they are a year away from release.

 

Maybe Valve felt that they must get people talking about this before the next gen consoles are released.  It makes sense, Valve wants to offer a console-like experience using off the shelf pc hardware, so if most gamers already own an X1 or PS4, they wont be interested in a Steambox.  As far as we know, there will not be any exclusives for the SteamOS/Steambox, so they cant really on software to draw in customers.

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DirtyLarry    2,075

I have been very busy at work this week so have not been able to really follow this all that closely, but just want to know, since it is an OS, I am assuming it will have the essentials that make it an actual OS, such as Web Browsing, email, etc? Is that an incorrect assumption, and it is really just to play games and nothing else?

 

I personally am torn on this. I have always wanted a nice little box for my living room that was capable of playing PC games, but I never wanted to sacrifice any of the power of an actual PC. So if these Steam boxes are limited as far as what hardware can be put in them, not sure how much appeal they will hold for myself.

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+Andre S.    1,892

I have been very busy at work this week so have not been able to really follow this all that closely, but just want to know, since it is an OS, I am assuming it will have the essentials that make it an actual OS, such as Web Browsing, email, etc? Is that an incorrect assumption, and it is really just to play games and nothing else?

 

I personally am torn on this. I have always wanted a nice little box for my living room that was capable of playing PC games, but I never wanted to sacrifice any of the power of an actual PC. So if these Steam boxes are limited as far as what hardware can be put in them, not sure how much appeal they will hold for myself.

What you get with Steam Big Picture should be a good indication. It has a browser and supports all the Steam games and software. In addition it'll do local media and game streaming. I'm hoping for native media playback but that wasn't announced.

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trooper11    1,096

What you get with Steam Big Picture should be a good indication. It has a browser and supports all the Steam games and software. In addition it'll do local media and game streaming. I'm hoping for native media playback but that wasn't announced.

 

Exactly.

 

Valve has no interest in creating a general purpose OS like Windows.  Instead, think of it as a gaming console OS. That means its aimed at the TV/ 10ft UI.

 

They want to create an OS focused on gaming, social features, and some media access, so no, it wont replace Windows as a general use OS. 

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Growled    3,880

^ I've read that it's based on Ubuntu 12.04. Why not just use Ubuntu?

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Athernar    605

Exactly.

 

Valve has no interest in creating a general purpose OS like Windows.  Instead, think of it as a gaming console OS. That means its aimed at the TV/ 10ft UI.

 

They want to create an OS focused on gaming, social features, and some media access, so no, it wont replace Windows as a general use OS. 

 

I agree that Valve has no interest in creating a general purpose OS, but they don't have to anyway. There are plenty of software packages they can pull in, so that doesn't mean SteamOS is going to be in the same vein as OrbisOS or etc.

 

Steam will probably provide the front-end functionality they want, whereas SteamOS is more about providing a convergeance point for Valve and other developers to target optimisations to the graphics/audio stacks and etc.

 

As I said before, one of the key things Valve has been talking about often in regards to Linux is the ability to optimise broadly rather than just within your own code.

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Max Norris    2,081

^ I've read that it's based on Ubuntu 12.04. Why not just use Ubuntu?

I suspect Ubuntu (the desktop OS not the distro as a whole) is going to be having some fairly big problems with gaming once they fully switch over to Mir and drop X.. last I heard 13.10 is going to have the X fallback, 14.04 it's 100% Mir. No proprietary driver support, Intel pulled their support entirely, probably going to be pretty buggy for a while, etc. A few of their derivative distros already gave it a pass. Not a solid plan for Valve in the long term. Curious as to how that particular move plays out for Canonical considering Ubuntu (12.04 and 12.10) is the only officially supported Linux OS, well minus SteamOS now of course.

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trooper11    1,096

I agree that Valve has no interest in creating a general purpose OS, but they don't have to anyway. There are plenty of software packages they can pull in, so that doesn't mean SteamOS is going to be in the same vein as OrbisOS or etc.

 

Steam will probably provide the front-end functionality they want, whereas SteamOS is more about providing a convergeance point for Valve and other developers to target optimisations to the graphics/audio stacks and etc.

 

As I said before, one of the key things Valve has been talking about often in regards to Linux is the ability to optimise broadly rather than just within your own code.

 

 

SteamOS is all about trying to provide the best TV/ 10ft UI experience.  Why in the world would it be turned into a desktop general use OS?  Wouldn't that completely destroy their goal of a focused gaming device? 

 

I totally agree that since its open source, people will have the option to go in and do what they want with it, but that doesn't mean that the general gamer is interested in that.  Valve is trying to capture the console gaming crowd and maybe pull in pc gamers with a streamlined OS. 

 

Again, this sounds just like a console OS.  Something that is not interested in providing a general use experience, but instead something more curated, tuned to gaming first.  Valve has an app store that will likely be the sole way that the average user will add functionality to the OS just like say the Windows Store, or XBL, or PSN, etc.  I just don't see the evidence that it would be any different.

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Athernar    605

SteamOS is all about trying to provide the best TV/ 10ft UI experience.  Why in the world would it be turned into a desktop general use OS?  Wouldn't that completely destroy their goal of a focused gaming device? 

 

I totally agree that since its open source, people will have the option to go in and do what they want with it, but that doesn't mean that the general gamer is interested in that.  Valve is trying to capture the console gaming crowd and maybe pull in pc gamers with a streamlined OS. 

 

Again, this sounds just like a console OS.  Something that is not interested in providing a general use experience, but instead something more curated, tuned to gaming first.  Valve has an app store that will likely be the sole way that the average user will add functionality to the OS just like say the Windows Store, or XBL, or PSN, etc.  I just don't see the evidence that it would be any different.

 

No, that's not what SteamOS is about at all. That's what Big Picture Mode is about.

 

SteamOS is about providing an open platform for Steam (and thus Big Picture Mode) to run on, and for game developers to be able contribute to / optimize for their releases.

 

Providing a good experience on TV does not require locking down the OS.

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Mobius Enigma    1,103

If every game developer out there ports to OpenGL instead of DirectX it will be a wonderful thing. Until then....

 

It just isn't that simple, and is ignoring the history of gaming.

 

 

Microsoft was behind OpenGL back in the early 90s and worked hard to get OpenGL to move to supporting gaming and 3D gaming hardware, and after the second rejection in changes to the framework, they gave up.

 

If there was no DirectX (or Microsoft) OpenGL would still be just a 3D engineering technology.

 

Even with OpenGL 4.x, it took a lot of push from developers to get the 'gaming' functionality Microsoft had added to DX10/11 and the Xbox 360 DirectX superset. 

 

It would be different if OpenGL was leading with new 'technologies' or was the forefront in gaming framework concepts and technologies.  However, OpenGL follows new gaming technologies Microsoft develops.  Go ask the animation and movie industry, the basis of the technologies even used in Films like Avatar are mainly based on Microsoft gaming technologies, even the studios using OpenGL that understand the basics of the features came originally from Microsoft.

 

 

Even if Microsoft denounced DirectX and put their support behind OpenGL, it would anger a lot of people, as some of Microsoft's framework technologies depend on OS kernel level functionality that doesn't exist in OS X, FreeBSD, or Linux.  Apple and the OSS world is not going to rip apart their OS technologies to allow OpenGL to have the same access and functionality that DirectX gets on Windows NT.

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HawkMan    5,197

SteamOS is all about trying to provide the best TV/ 10ft UI experience. Why in the world would it be turned into a desktop general use OS? Wouldn't that completely destroy their goal of a focused gaming device?

I totally agree that since its open source, people will have the option to go in and do what they want with it, but that doesn't mean that the general gamer is interested in that. Valve is trying to capture the console gaming crowd and maybe pull in pc gamers with a streamlined OS.

Again, this sounds just like a console OS. Something that is not interested in providing a general use experience, but instead something more curated, tuned to gaming first. Valve has an app store that will likely be the sole way that the average user will add functionality to the OS just like say the Windows Store, or XBL, or PSN, etc. I just don't see the evidence that it would be any different.

I think you may be reading to much into the open source nature of Linux.

Their base OS will be open source as required by the license. But that's just a stripped down Ubuntu anyway. Basically the only open source hits of this will be the useless parts. I'm pretty sure they're not going to open source the SteamOS shell and environment, since that's pretty much steam.

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Atomic Wanderer Chicken    1,585

Does anyone know how well this Steam OS will be in terms of installing any PC. Windows has excellent compatibility and has almost all the drivers for anything. 

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trooper11    1,096

No, that's not what SteamOS is about at all. That's what Big Picture Mode is about.

 

SteamOS is about providing an open platform for Steam (and thus Big Picture Mode) to run on, and for game developers to be able contribute to / optimize for their releases.

 

Providing a good experience on TV does not require locking down the OS.

 

 

I'm not so sure about that.  You make it sound like SteamOS will basically be a Linux desktop OS with Steam installed.  If that were the case, then I see even less reason for Valve to do this at all.

 

The goal as stated by Valve is that they want to offer a streamlined UI for pc gamers while maximizing performance thanks to a focused OS, not one that has to worry about supporting a general computing environment like Windows.

 

This isn't about locking down the OS.  I never said it would be locked down.  I'm saying that Valve is not interested in selling Linux pcs.  They are trying to capture a console like experience where the main usage is gaming.  If they decide to present it as a general use Linux os, then they are not offering a focused experience around gaming.  Where is the evidence that Valve will create a UI that is not pushing the 'Steam' experience?  So far, everything points to a system where the user will be living in a Steam world.  They will buy and play games through it, they will also buy non gaming apps through it.  All of their social features that are tied to gaming will be there and there is even a web browser. 

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Athernar    605

I'm not so sure about that.  You make it sound like SteamOS will basically be a Linux desktop OS with Steam installed.  If that were the case, then I see even less reason for Valve to do this at all.

 

The goal as stated by Valve is that they want to offer a streamlined UI for pc gamers while maximizing performance thanks to a focused OS, not one that has to worry about supporting a general computing environment like Windows.

 

This isn't about locking down the OS.  I never said it would be locked down.  I'm saying that Valve is not interested in selling Linux pcs.  They are trying to capture a console like experience where the main usage is gaming.  If they decide to present it as a general use Linux os, then they are not offering a focused experience around gaming.  Where is the evidence that Valve will create a UI that is not pushing the 'Steam' experience?  So far, everything points to a system where the user will be living in a Steam world.  They will buy and play games through it, they will also buy non gaming apps through it.  All of their social features that are tied to gaming will be there and there is even a web browser. 

 

Because that's exactly what it's going to be. A gaming specialized Linux distro that runs the Steam platform which provides the streamlined experience.

 

Bear in mind we're talking about a class of devices that broaden the reach of PC gaming, not a singular product designed to try and compete with consoles.

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trooper11    1,096

Because that's exactly what it's going to be. A gaming specialized Linux distro that runs the Steam platform which provides the streamlined experience.

 

Bear in mind we're talking about a class of devices that broaden the reach of PC gaming, not a singular product designed to try and compete with consoles.

 

But visually, your not trying to say that users will be presented with a Linux desktop that they then use like any other desktop os and can launch Steam when they want to game, right?

 

That's the part I am talking about.  If they intend to offer users a Linux desktop, then I really don't get the point.  You can already use Steam on Linux.

 

I think the confusions comes down to the OS and the UI.  I'm not saying it wont be a Linux OS at heart, I'm trying to say that Valve will use that Linux core and create a UI that lives in Steam, not a pc desktop.

 

As far as who Valve is aiming this at, it sure does look like a shot at consoles.  Just because its not a singular product does not mean its not competing with game consoles.  I mean seriously, just listen to what Valve is saying as they pitch all of this and tell me the are not trying to capture the console gamer crowd as well. 

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Athernar    605

But visually, your not trying to say that users will be presented with a Linux desktop that they then use like any other desktop os and can launch Steam when they want to game, right?

 

That's the part I am talking about.  If they intend to offer users a Linux desktop, then I really don't get the point.  You can already use Steam on Linux.

 

I think the confusions comes down to the OS and the UI.  I'm not saying it wont be a Linux OS at heart, I'm trying to say that Valve will use that Linux core and create a UI that lives in Steam, not a pc desktop.

 

As far as who Valve is aiming this at, it sure does look like a shot at consoles.  Just because its not a singular product does not mean its not competing with game consoles.  I mean seriously, just listen to what Valve is saying as they pitch all of this and tell me the are not trying to capture the console gamer crowd as well. 

 

The way it will likely work is OoB the OS will automatically load Steam which will in turn automatically open in Big Picture, so you'll have your TV optimal experience. What that doesn't mean however is that the desktop will be absent or inaccessible.

 

So you can stay in BPM entirely if you wish to, but the option to go to the desktop and install another client or non-steam game would be there if wanted.

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trooper11    1,096

The way it will likely work is OoB the OS will automatically load Steam which will in turn automatically open in Big Picture, so you'll have your TV optimal experience. What that doesn't mean however is that the desktop will be absent or inaccessible.

 

So you can stay in BPM entirely if you wish to, but the option to go to the desktop and install another client or non-steam game would be there if wanted.

 

I never said it wouldn't be accessible, but I think its highly unlikely that Valve will be pushing that functionality.  I think they will create their UI in such a way that users have no idea that desktop is accessible.  I think the last thing they want is to possibly confuse users with a general use desktop. 

 

Again, that will still mean that anyone wanting to access a 'desktop' can do so, but I highly doubt Valve will support that usage since I find it hard to believe they will want to get into the position of supporting the functions outside of Steam itself.

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Athernar    605

I never said it wouldn't be accessible, but I think its highly unlikely that Valve will be pushing that functionality.  I think they will create their UI in such a way that users have no idea that desktop is accessible.  I think the last thing they want is to possibly confuse users with a general use desktop. 

 

Again, that will still mean that anyone wanting to access a 'desktop' can do so, but I highly doubt Valve will support that usage since I find it hard to believe they will want to get into the position of supporting the functions outside of Steam itself.

 

You keep saying they'll "create their UI to..." when they've already created the UI, to repeat myself yet again, that is exactly what Big Picture mode is for. That is the UI and the "Livingroom experience".

 

I've said all I'm going to say on this line of discussion as I feel as though I'm just repeating myself at this point.

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trooper11    1,096

You keep saying they'll "create their UI to..." when they've already created the UI, to repeat myself yet again, that is exactly what Big Picture mode is for. That is the UI and the "Livingroom experience".

 

I've said all I'm going to say on this line of discussion as I feel as though I'm just repeating myself at this point.

 

 

That's fine, sorry if I was causing you trouble.

 

So you basically agree with me at the end of it.  Valve will push their Steam UI which includes the big picture mode as the 'face' of the SteamOS and not make much effort to present it as a complete desktop OS.

 

I wasn't trying to be difficult, I just thought you were trying to say that this would be like a Linux desktop experience.  I agree that it will be aimed at the Steam UI instead.

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patseguin    1,044

I like the idea but you have to be a rocket scientist to get your graphics card drivers installed in Linux.

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ViperAFK    787

I like the idea but you have to be a rocket scientist to get your graphics card drivers installed in Linux.

That is completely hyperbolic. In most cases the drivers are either fully functional out of the box (intel), partially-mostly functional out of the box (AMD), or need a proprietary driver for any decent functionality (Nvidia). Most distros have automated installation for the proprietary drivers where its just a few clicks to install and run them... Not really any harder than installing them on windows.

 

I guess if you consider a few clicks rocket science...

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Max Norris    2,081

Most distros have automated installation for the proprietary drivers where its just a few clicks to install and run them... Not really any harder than installing them on windows.

Ditto this.. I'm not a fan of gaming on Linux but the drivers are actually (usually) fairly easy to get up and running, even the proprietary ones. It can just get messy when it doesn't work right, which does come up from time to time or if you run into unsupported hardware. (When it goes wrong on Windows it can be a little tricky too.) For example, ran into that on one of my "whatever/testing" systems.. trying out I think it was Ubuntu 12.10, older legacy ATI board (thanks for that AMD, wasn't that old), with no drivers available that work with the later version of X that shipped with the distro, and I wanted the proprietary drivers as it blew the doors off of the open source ones at the time, not sure what state they're in now. Getting them to work involved a downgrade of the X server. It got ugly fast. That was an exception though, 99% of the time, on my hardware anyway, it's more or less just as easy as Windows, usually click click done, mayyyybe a bit of fine tuning of the X config file but not usually.

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NightScreams    97
ViperAFK, on 25 Sept 2013 - 19:52, said:ViperAFK, on 25 Sept 2013 - 19:52, said:

That is completely hyperbolic. In most cases the drivers are either fully functional out of the box (intel), partially-mostly functional out of the box (AMD), or need a proprietary driver for any decent functionality (Nvidia). Most distros have automated installation for the proprietary drivers where its just a few clicks to install and run them... Not really any harder than installing them on windows.

 

I guess if you consider a few clicks rocket science...

 

But it can get ugly, especially if you run into a problem. I'm certain that SteamOS will include an automatic method of obtaining all updates and drivers without intervention of user like consoles do, they just call it "firmware updates". Gabe has mentioned he has wanted automatic video driver updates quite a while ago but if you think about it, with Steam on Windows, you don't have to install DirectX or VB6 manually nor even many of your gamesaves. You start a game and it's all done for you...Likely that will evolve into drivers as well.

 

I still want to know how this will win over console gamers much less current PC gamers that would have to trash their library of older titles, no way will devs spend the money to transfer all those DX games to OpenGL. Personally I would rather buy a console than Steambox cause I know everyone playing online is also using a gamepad and actually talks with headsets. No one on PC speaks and barely anyone ever types, it feels so lonely, communication with team players makes for way more fun.

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dwLostCat    1,024

I guess if you consider a few clicks rocket science...

I agree with you, but for a while with my 6870 the distros had some build of the AMD driver that screwed with my screen and because it wasn't an open source driver they made you get one yourself for it to actually work properly and it was just goofy.

 

I don't think SteamOS will have such a hardon for open source that it interferes with basic functionality, at least.

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