People Who Believe in God Less Likely to Believe in Extraterrestrials

[chrisj1968]

Then why does this "loving god" continually exterminate so many of us, hmm?

 

Our desire to "worship" is nothing more than the primitive fear of things we don't understand.  I have no desire to worship anything, because I have at least enough of a reasonable understanding of the world around me to not be afraid.

 

Also, should your god exist, I still wouldn't worship it.  I bow my head to no one and nothing, and certainly not to a malignant entity bent on tormenting its creations unless we do exactly what it tells us (and then refuses to tell us a damn thing that makes any sense).

You have to look at the context of what GOD did and why. Hittites, Gergashites, philistines and more. GOD is just. I can't say why other than His justice. If you believe in Adam and Eve, you have half the problem solved right there. He was going to do away with us because we did nothing but evil. But Noah found favor and was spared.

 

We are evil. pure and simple. Look at history. we MIGHT have had some 100 years without a war. rest of the time we have had wars.

 

The big picture is WE are the problem. So GOD sent his only son, Jesus to die. he was perfect, sinless, blameless and unblemished on the cross. So he now has reconciled GOD with man being totally man and totally GOD, the hypostatic union.

[FloatingFatMan]

You have to look at the context of what GOD did and why. Hittites, Gergashites, philistines and more. GOD is just. I can't say why other than His justice. If you believe in Adam and Eve, you have half the problem solved right there. He was going to do away with us because we did nothing but evil. But Noah found favor and was spared.

 

We are evil. pure and simple. Look at history. we MIGHT have had some 100 years without a war. rest of the time we have had wars.

 

The big picture is WE are the problem. So GOD sent his only son, Jesus to die. he was perfect, sinless, blameless and unblemished on the cross. So he now has reconciled GOD with man being totally man and totally GOD, the hypostatic union.

 

YOU speak for YOURSELF, not everyone else, thank you very much. -I- am not evil, period.  Nor am I responsible for the actions of any of my ancestors.

 

Oh, and since when is eating a fruit, evil?  You need to have a serious look at what evil is, pally.

[spudtrooper]

Holy mind numbing garbage batman, I really hope your post is just troll bait. 

 

Haha.. it's barely even worth replying to huh lol

[compl3x]

YOU speak for YOURSELF, not everyone else, thank you very much. -I- am not evil, period.  Nor am I responsible for the actions of any of my ancestors.

 

 

 

That's a big part of the problem: they believe it applies to everyone, believer and non alike. We're all rotten sinners, and unless we submit we're all doomed to eternal damnation  :devil: .... from a loving god  :innocent:

 

 

Lucky secular law doesn't work like god's law. I would hate to find myself being punished for the transgressions of my great, great grandfather.

[trieste]

Holy mind numbing garbage batman, I really hope your post is just troll bait. 

Nope. It does take an educated mind to refute every point with evidence and logic, and frankly, from the posts after mine, I don't have much hope of seeing a worthy debater. Though I have to clarify that the point of my post was to pry open closed minds, and not something looking for heated quarrels.

[mudslag]

Nope. It does take an educated mind to refute every point with evidence and logic, and frankly, from the posts after mine, I don't have much hope of seeing a worthy debater. Though I have to clarify that the point of my post was to pry open closed minds, and not something looking for heated quarrels.

 

 

And yet you don't bother to prove any it, just lay baseless claims. What I quoted you on is your claims, so it falls on you to back them up. So please, provide actual evidence to your claims.

[Ice_Blue]

To Trieste Or whatever he calls himself now:

 

I would like you to continue this family tree:

 

Adam/Eve -> Cain|Abel -> ?

[FloatingFatMan]

Nope. It does take an educated mind to refute every point with evidence and logic, and frankly, from the posts after mine, I don't have much hope of seeing a worthy debater. Though I have to clarify that the point of my post was to pry open closed minds, and not something looking for heated quarrels.

 

If you're convinced that the bible contains nothing but facts, present the verified evidence supporting those facts.

 

In fact, I'll make it really easy for you and just ask you to prove ONE specific thing from the bible. Prove the flood Moses tells of.  Such a world wide event would leave trace evidence over the ENTIRE planet, so it should be really easy for you to prove that, right?

 

So go on, prove it.

[compl3x]

 

 

I would like you to continue this family tree:

 

Adam/Eve -> Cain|Abel -> ?

 

 

[trieste]

To Trieste Or whatever he calls himself now:

 

I would like you to continue this family tree:

 

Adam/Eve -> Cain|Abel -> ?

Abel was murdered by Cain. According to your mindmap, it appears that you think that Abel was Cain's wife. That is incorrect. Abel was the younger brother of Cain, and Adam's second son.

 

Cain's -> Enoch -> Irad -> Mehujael -> Methushael -> Lamech ->Jabal + Jubal + Tubal-Cain + Naamah.

 

The important line from Adam was through Seth, and this is delineated in http://bit.ly/H4PlPz

[trieste]

If you're convinced that the bible contains nothing but facts, present the verified evidence supporting those facts.

 

In fact, I'll make it really easy for you and just ask you to prove ONE specific thing from the bible. Prove the flood Moses tells of.  Such a world wide event would leave trace evidence over the ENTIRE planet, so it should be really easy for you to prove that, right?

 

So go on, prove it.

You are right, there is evidence all over the planet.

 

The millions of fossils, the Grand Canyon, the Himalayas, the plate tectonics are but a few obvious ones.

 

And not only fossils, but fossils that contain intact DNA, intact blood porphyrins... compounds which would have completely disintegrated given a multi-million-year history, but are definitely still viable in a 6000-year timeframe. Plus the fact that fossils don't form from gradual processes... our daily experiences tell us that animal carcasses decompose, not vitrify or transform into hydrocarbons. Fossil formation requires catastrophic tectonic action that initiates simultaneous mass burials on Earth while floodwaters rise and the more capable animals climb to the highest altitudes to die (and are buried in the top layers).

 

Also, the fact that if all of Earth was levelled to the same height, the entire planet would be covered in water to a depth of 2 miles. The hot mantle rocks most likely contain much more water in the lattice structure of the rocks than all the combined water of the oceans. That's why it's so amusing when scientists scoff at a global Flood on Earth, but postulate that there was one on currently completely dry Mars.

[trieste]

YOU speak for YOURSELF, not everyone else, thank you very much. -I- am not evil, period.  Nor am I responsible for the actions of any of my ancestors.

 

Oh, and since when is eating a fruit, evil?  You need to have a serious look at what evil is, pally.

Have you never lied?

Have you never hated?

Have you never laid hands on someone?

Have you never spoken harsh words to anyone out of rage?

Have you fulfilled every single inch of your duties and responsibilities without fail and without complaining?

Have you ever disobeyed your dad and mum?

Have you never entertained thoughts of superiority against an individual of a different skin colour, ANY colour?

 

Again, this post is to open up minds to a more generic understanding of evil. Evil always starts small, but small evil is evil nevertheless.

 

 

I don't think it's necessary any longer among intellectuals to play on the straw man of "oh it's just a fruit, quit your holier-than-thou preachworthiness". The significance of the fruit is reversed - if it was "merely" a fruit, why couldn't Adam simply not eat it if a supreme God warned him not to and spoke clearly of the consequences of disobedience? It was never just about the fruit, it was about the wilful act of being one's own judge of good and evil by disregarding the directions of one's own Creator.

And that's precisely why in your own eyes you THINK you're not evil.

The logical argument goes like this.

 

P1: I am human.

P2: A human is fundamentally predisposed to committing evil.

Q: Therefore I am fundamentally predisposed to committing evil.

[McKay]

You are right, there is evidence all over the planet.

 

The millions of fossils, the Grand Canyon, the Himalayas, the plate tectonics are but a few obvious ones.

 

The fact that if all of Earth was levelled to the same height, the entire planet would be covered in water to a depth of 2 miles. The hot mantle rocks most likely contain much more water in the lattice structure of the rocks than all the combined water of the oceans. That's why it's so amusing when scientists scoff at a global Flood on Earth, but postulate that there was one on currently completely dry Mars.

 

There are fossils of sea life because the tops of the mountains were once ocean floor, plate tectonics caused the edges of plates to push upwards when colliding with another plate, causing the mountains.

[trieste]

That is no more evidence of god then that is evidence of unicorns, leprechaun, Smurs, Harry Potter or Mr. Hankey the Christmas Poo. If you truly believe in that garbage nonsense then by that same nonsense you have to accept that as evidence for what I listed above and every other supernatural fairy tale story as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I can fathom the concept of godzilla too, that doesn't mean I believe in it. I also understand that given the size of the universe and the mind boggling amount of stars and planets within this vast universe that the odds of life existing are far more favorable to the possible existence of life then there not being. 

 

I don't have faith in a god existing, I have faith in the odds of life beyond our own world are correct. Faith is NOT limited to just a belief in a god. Huge difference. 

It takes a huge suspension of belief in reality and history to claim a lack of evidence for God... not just any God, but the one crucified by the Romans for claiming to the Jews that he is.

 

No unicorns, leprechauns, Smurfs, Harry Potters, Mr. Hankeys the Christmas Poo or Godzillas ever claimed to be God and demonstrated so with fulfillment of prophecies and documented miracles.

 

The faith I speak of is that built on a strong tripod - personal experience, verifiable and accurate historical accounts, and present reality. Personal experience is indeed subjective, although it is impossible for people to hallucinate the same thing simultaneously. That is why, in the historical accounting of the Bible, multiple eyewitnesses were present at the same time.

 

Historicity comes from the uninterrupted timeline of Christiandom -- from the apostles, to their disciples, to the first bishops of churches which survived the persecution of the Roman Empire, to the official state religion under the Byzantine Empire, to the Catholic Church as well as cloistered scribes and monks of the Middle Ages, and finally to the Reformers in the era right before the Renaissance. So it flabbergasts me to encounter anyone who claims to have a serious intellectual mind to say so effortlessly that there is no evidence.

 

Documented miracles -- presented as they are in the accurate and verifiable historical documents. Miracles can co-exist with science; in fact, given that us mortal humans are limited to the experiences of everyday physics, miracles provide incontrovertible proof of a higher dimension which has mechanisms that are utterly different from 4D spacetime and effortlessly superior to it.

 

Present reality - the continued survival of Israel despite multiple attempts to destroy its bloodlines and despite its own stupidity in political matters (the latter is referring to the State of Israel, not Israel as a tribe). The Jews survived economic discrimination in pre-WWI Europe, a genocide in WWII. What seemed like a curse became a blessing: their diaspora from Europe assures their continuity by leaving distinct cultural remnants in every nation. Second point - the continued presence of Christianity in this world despite persecution and torture of various degrees in all the nations.

 

That is what faith is about, when properly defined. In contrast, your faith in alien life lacks this tripod, and even contravenes basic chemistry. Cytosine hydrolysis, oxygen/ozone paradox, chirality of amino acids (L) and sugars (D) are just 3 of many hiccups in an attempted naturalistic origin of life theory.

[trieste]

There are fossils of sea life because the tops of the mountains were once ocean floor, plate tectonics caused the edges of plates to push upwards when colliding with another plate, causing the mountains.

Yes, I read this since I was in elementary school, and don't dispute it at all. What I wonder is - how did the fossils of sea life come about in the first place? How about fossils of non-sea life? Why was plate tectonics so violent as to create mountains 8 km high (Everest)?

[compl3x]

 

 

Cain's -> Enoch -> Irad -> Mehujael -> Methushael -> Lamech ->Jabal + Jubal + Tubal-Cain + Naamah.

 

 

 

 

You forgot Larry, Curly, Moe, Chico, Harpo, Groucho & Zeppo.

 

 

I think Ice_Blue's point was if Abel was dead, and Eve was the only other women on the planet, with whom did Cain have a child with?

 

According to Wiki: Jubilees 4:9 - Cain's spouse was Awan. . . His sister...

 

If you reject Jubilees as pseudepigrapha, the question still remains: who the hell did Cain screw to have Enoch?

 

Frankly, I find this kind of discussion about as interesting as watching flies ######, but you have to point out that people apparently know the lineage from Adam but can't account for the spouse/mother.

[FloatingFatMan]

Have you never lied?

Have you never hated?

Have you never laid hands on someone?

Have you never spoken harsh words to anyone out of rage?

Have you fulfilled every single inch of your duties and responsibilities without fail and without complaining?

Have you ever disobeyed your dad and mum?

Have you never entertained thoughts of superiority against an individual of a different skin colour, ANY colour?

 

 

Of course I have, I'm human. To say I haven't would be a lie.

 

Again, this post is to open up minds to a more generic understanding of evil. Evil always starts small, but small evil is evil nevertheless.

 

None of the things you mentioned, are "evil", they're simply human.

 

 

I don't think it's necessary any longer among intellectuals to play on the straw man of "oh it's just a fruit, quit your holier-than-thou preachworthiness". The significance of the fruit is reversed - if it was "merely" a fruit, why couldn't Adam simply not eat it if a supreme God warned him not to and spoke clearly of the consequences of disobedience? It was never just about the fruit, it was about the wilful act of being one's own judge of good and evil by disregarding the directions of one's own Creator.

 

There was never a fruit, just like there was never an Adam or an Eve. The entire story is just a parable, not to be taken literally.  If you do, I pity you.

 

And that's precisely why in your own eyes you THINK you're not evil.

 

The logical argument goes like this.

 

P1: I am human.

P2: A human is fundamentally predisposed to committing evil.

Q: Therefore I am fundamentally predisposed to committing evil.

 

 

That's not a logical argument at all.  P1 is a statement of fact, P2 is a supposotition. Q is a false conclusion based on a fact and a supposition.

 

Also, I don't think I'm not evil. I know, for a fact, that I'm not evil.  Evil is defined in the bible as an act against god. As god does not exist, I cannot commit any acts against it and therefore cannot be evil.

 

I also am not evil as per the dictionary definition.  I do not commit unwarranted acts of violence, I do not lie to serve my own wants,  I do not take things which do not belong to me., I do not insult others without first being insulted.

[trieste]

I think Ice_Blue's point was if Abel was dead, and Eve was the only other women on the planet, with whom did Cain have a child with?

 

According to Wiki: Jubilees 4:9 - Cain's spouse was Awan. . . His sister...

I am unfamiliar with the content of the Apocrypha, but you are right: Cain married his sister to continue his bloodline. Why would you be squeamish about that, considering that incest, even in the Jewish Torah context, was declared illegal by God through Moses only more than 1000 years later after Israel's exodus from Egypt?

 

Logically, when we marry someone, we're marrying a distant cousin, since we are all from Adam.

[McKay]

Yes, I read this since I was in elementary school, and don't dispute it at all. What I wonder is - how did the fossils of sea life come about in the first place? How about fossils of non-sea life? Why was plate tectonics so violent as to create mountains 8 km high (Everest)?

 

There are more fossils of sea life then there are non sealife because the conditions are more ideal. And plate tectonics can be so violent because sometimes plates push against each other for so long that the pressure builds and builds for so long, that one of them gives, these aren't always formed suddenly though they can rise by a tiny amount a year and take millions of years. 

[FloatingFatMan]

Logically, when we marry someone, we're marrying a distant cousin, since we are all from Adam.

 

Nah we're not. I'm from Steve. :p

[trieste]

That's not a logical argument at all.  P1 is a statement of fact, P2 is a supposotition. Q is a false conclusion based on a fact and a supposition.

 

Also, I don't think I'm not evil. I know, for a fact, that I'm not evil.  Evil is defined in the bible as an act against god. As god does not exist, I cannot commit any acts against it and therefore cannot be evil.

 

I also am not evil as per the dictionary definition.  I do not commit unwarranted acts of violence, I do not lie to serve my own wants,  I do not take things which do not belong to me., I do not insult others without first being insulted.

"As god does not exist" is illogical. To claim this with certainty, you necessarily have to disprove God in every intellectual and spiritual sphere of life, as well as in every corner of the known and unknown universe. As of now, your claim is limited to your limited experience and powers of observation, and thus is a subjective one.

 

Lamech, a descendant of Cain, said the same thing to his 2 wives - that he would avenge himself on anyone 77 times more for any perceived wrong done against himself. To borrow an idea from a misogynistic anecdote - a woman who sells her body for a million dollars is still lacking in self-respect. What's to be resolved is just the asking price.

[compl3x]

I am unfamiliar with the content of the Apocrypha, but you are right: Cain married his sister to continue his bloodline. Why would you be squeamish about that?

 

There is plenty of repulsive behaviour in the Bible. It doesn't surprise me that pretty much right off the bat you have stories (and that is what they are, fictions) of brothers killing brothers, brothers screwing sisters & having kids, etc.

 

It is disturbing you think the idea of screwing and having offspring with a sibling is something one shouldn't be repulsed by. I am sure very few modern Christians would be OK with that kind of behaviour. Even the Bible thumping wackos wouldn't condone it today even while admitting it went on all the time back in the good ol' days of the Bible.

[Ice_Blue]

Abel was murdered by Cain. According to your mindmap, it appears that you think that Abel was Cain's wife. That is incorrect. Abel was the younger brother of Cain, and Adam's second son.

 

Cain's -> Enoch -> Irad -> Mehujael -> Methushael -> Lamech ->Jabal + Jubal + Tubal-Cain + Naamah.

 

The important line from Adam was through Seth, and this is delineated in http://bit.ly/H4PlPz

 

No. I do not think Abel was Cain's wife. I know they were brothers.

My question is: How did the genealogy proceed from there?

 

In other words, who is Enoch's mother?

 

Edit: Sorry, didn't read the previous post by Compl3x before posting.

[trieste]

Nah we're not. I'm from Steve. :p

I believe that compl3x has something more cogent to add.

 

There is plenty of repulsive behaviour in the Bible. It doesn't surprise me that pretty much right off the bat you have stories (and that is what they are, fictions) of brothers killing brothers, brothers screwing sisters & having kids, etc.

 

It is disturbing you think the idea of screwing and having offspring with a sibling is something one shouldn't be repulsed by. I am sure very few modern Christians would be OK with that kind of behaviour. Even the Bible thumping wackos wouldn't condone it today even while admitting it went on all the time back in the good ol' days of the Bible.

I am repulsed by it because God stated it to be evil for us living in relatively more modern times (Moses onwards).

 

You are right, it went on in the good old days of the Bible, but among the morally degenerate tribes and nations surrounding Israel (who were judged accordingly and conquered by Israel), not to Israel herself. For once, you and God are of the same mind!

 

Ok, here's another point to open minds: The Torah, when properly regarded as history, becomes a historical account of the events and activities of biblical characters. Their behaviour and actions were often described just as one would in a detailed narrative. The Bible noted the first murder -- and also noted the judgment for that murder: lifelong exile. To claim that the Bible supports everything it describes is to put words into its mouth (figuratively). Should a self-proclaimed intellectual be doing that?

 

Incest as a sin was non-existent before Moses. It was necessary for survival for sibling-couples to procreate. What an irony, that evolutionists would exalt eugenics and justify all sorts of horrendous behaviour in the name of survival, but give special and opposite treatment to this one.

[FloatingFatMan]

"As god does not exist" is illogical. To claim this with certainty, you necessarily have to disprove God in every intellectual and spiritual sphere of life, as well as in every corner of the known and unknown universe. As of now, your claim is limited to your limited experience and powers of observation, and thus is a subjective one.

 

 

Actually, I'm not required to prove anything because I'm not making a positive claim.  I'm disputing the claims of people such as you who claim god DOES exist, yet have never provided any verifiable evidence if its existence.

 

You have no proof, therefore I can quite happily state that your god does not exist.