Israel condemns Council of Europe resolution


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theyarecomingforyou

Israel has denounced a Council of Europe resolution opposing ritual circumcision, saying it casts a "moral stain" and "fosters hate and racist trends in Europe".

 
A strong statement issued by Israel shortly after the council adopted the resolution last week was reinforced on Monday by a letter sent by president Shimon Peres calling for it to be rescinded.
 
The council's resolution called on 47 member states to regulate practices concerning ritual circumcision, "to overcome some of the prevailing traditional methods, which do not take into consideration the best interest of the child and the latest state of medical art".
 
The resolution was carried by 77 votes to 19, with 12 abstentions.
 
Both Judaism and Islam require the circumcision of boys, usually conducted soon after birth.
 
A statement issued by the Israeli foreign ministry called on the council to overturn the resolution, saying that "claims that circumcision harms young boys' health and body are false, and do not rest on any scientific evidence."
 
The resolution cast "a moral stain on the Council of Europe, and fosters hate and racist trends in Europe", it added.

Source: The Guardian

 

I support circumcision for legitimate medical reasons but strongly object to it being used on young children without informed consent, whether or not such practices are based on religious convictions. Parents have absolutely no right to mutilate the body of their child, regardless of how long the practice dates back or how common it is. It's high time that Europe stands up to the practice and protects the rights of children. Germany has been one of the most progressive nations with regard to this topic and recently banned the practice, though that ruling was eventually overturned (in part because of the country's legacy regarding the Holocaust).

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compl3x

 

I support circumcision for legitimate medical reasons

 

 

Which is incredibly rare. Few babies are born who end up needing circumcision.

 

It is a barbaric religious ritual. Any medical benefits, which are highly debatable, have NOTHING to do with why it is done religiously. It's an attempt to justify an ignorant religious practice.

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theyarecomingforyou

Which is incredibly rare. Few babies are born who end up needing circumcision.

Exactly. And while it may be medically preferable in some circumstances unless it is medically required it should be for the individual to decide when they are old enough to grant informed consent. If somebody wants to get themselves circumcised when they're old enough then that's fine by me?whether it's for religious reasons or simply for a laugh?but it's not acceptable for parents to force it upon their children.

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compl3x

Religiously, I think it had to do with the covenant between Abraham and god. For some reason, the supreme creator of the universe wanted foreskins. I have no idea what he does with them... Maybe he's a human foreskin trophy collector. It is disturbing that would be one of his lesser weird hobbies.

 

What is appalling offensive is the cries of anti-Semitism and anti-Islam when anyone, anywhere, ever, questions this practice. It is a headache-inducing insult that the people who oppose mutilating baby boys' penises are seen as the bad guys.

 

 

 

I don't mean to get all ranty or self-righteous, but **** like this infuriates me.

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ScorpioRGc1

I really don't get why people get so worked up over circumcision (at least in males).  I'm circumcised and I'd hardly call it a "mutilation".  Exaggerative language at its finest to force an agenda.

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theyarecomingforyou

I really don't get why people get so worked up over circumcision (at least in males).  I'm circumcised and I'd hardly call it a "mutilation".  Exaggerative language at its finest to force an agenda.

Circumcision itself isn't the issue but that it is being carried out on young children without their consent. Those who want to have it done should do so but it shouldn't be forced upon anyone. I personally do class it as mutilation but that isn't really relevant.

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FloatingFatMan

I really don't get why people get so worked up over circumcision (at least in males).  I'm circumcised and I'd hardly call it a "mutilation".  Exaggerative language at its finest to force an agenda.

 

Watch a video of it being done, and then tell us it's not a mutilation.

 

There isn't even any pain relief for the poor baby being assaulted.

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+Fulcrum

In the 80's the American Academy of Pediatrics suggested circumcision may have health benefits, today it's opposite. No guarantee experts will not change their mind again in 30 years. But i'm a firm believer, policy needs to reflect the times.

 

Can't wait for this to come to the US...

 

"I ain't paying for your baby..."

"Condoms no! Circumcision... Yes!"

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Rippleman

I am conflicted on this. I am done as well as my son. Religion had nothing to do with it. Of course for myself, I didn't choose but happy it was done. I also chose for my son since it seems logical to have it done.

 

Flip side: I also see how some would see this as mutilation, although it isn't intended to be. I have typed many lines but only backspaced since i don't know how to put it into words.

 

I guess it comes down to this:

 

1) is it necessary to do? no

2) is it painful? I bet (but i imagine a baby feels pain too during the labour but we don't seem to be crying for C-Section only births)

3) is it beneficial? yes

4) any downside? none

 

Rewind time: would i choose to have it done? yes, I am glad my parents had it done.

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XerXis

I am conflicted on this. I am done as well as my son. Religion had nothing to do with it. Of course for myself, I didn't choose but happy it was done. I also chose for my son since it seems logical to have it done.

 

Flip side: I also see how some would see this as mutilation, although it isn't intended to be. I have typed many lines but only backspaced since i don't know how to put it into words.

 

I guess it comes down to this:

 

1) is it necessary to do? no

2) is it painful? I bet (but i imagine a baby feels pain too during the labour but we don't seem to be crying for C-Section only births)

3) is it beneficial? yes

4) any downside? none

 

Rewind time: would i choose to have it done? yes, I am glad my parents had it done.

3) like how? Seems more like a cultural thing, or even worse an esthetical trend (like not having pubic hair was the norm a few years back). In Europe it is rare (except for religious reasons), in the USA it's very common. But beneficial? No, nothing seems to point to that

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FlintyV

 

 

Rewind time: would i choose to have it done? yes, I am glad my parents had it done.

 

Why?

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FloatingFatMan

I am conflicted on this. I am done as well as my son. Religion had nothing to do with it. Of course for myself, I didn't choose but happy it was done. I also chose for my son since it seems logical to have it done.

 

Flip side: I also see how some would see this as mutilation, although it isn't intended to be. I have typed many lines but only backspaced since i don't know how to put it into words.

 

I guess it comes down to this:

 

1) is it necessary to do? no

2) is it painful? I bet (but i imagine a baby feels pain too during the labour but we don't seem to be crying for C-Section only births)

3) is it beneficial? yes

4) any downside? none

 

Rewind time: would i choose to have it done? yes, I am glad my parents had it done.

 

3.  Actually, the benefits are -very- limited, and generally meaningless in the western world.

4.  There are -great- downsides, actually. The most important one being a loss of sensitivity for the male, and reduced pleasure for the woman.

 

You have a foreskin for a REASON. Leave it where it's meant to be.

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theyarecomingforyou

I am conflicted on this. I am done as well as my son. Religion had nothing to do with it. Of course for myself, I didn't choose but happy it was done. I also chose for my son since it seems logical to have it done.

 

Flip side: I also see how some would see this as mutilation, although it isn't intended to be. I have typed many lines but only backspaced since i don't know how to put it into words.

 

I guess it comes down to this:

 

1) is it necessary to do? no

2) is it painful? I bet (but i imagine a baby feels pain too during the labour but we don't seem to be crying for C-Section only births)

3) is it beneficial? yes

4) any downside? none

 

Rewind time: would i choose to have it done? yes, I am glad my parents had it done.

You might be happy with it but it shouldn't have been forced upon you and you shouldn't have forced it upon your child. I mean, what if the trend was cutting off the eyelids of your child so they could see better? Or cutting off their ears because it prevented a build-up of earwax? Circumcision is only tolerated because it has a long tradition but looking at it objectively it is wrong for parents to impose it upon their children without their informed consent.

 

As I said, I have no problem with the procedure itself and can see why people would have it done but it should only be done by individuals old enough to make an informed decision for themselves. I also think if people had to wait until they were 13 or 16 to have it done that the percentage of people circumcised would drop dramatically.

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Rippleman

3) like how? Seems more like a cultural thing, or even worse an esthetical trend (like not having pubic hair was the norm a few years back). In Europe it is rare (except for religious reasons), in the USA it's very common. But beneficial? No, nothing seems to point to that

 

 

Why?

 

 

3.  Actually, the benefits are -very- limited, and generally meaningless in the western world.

4.  There are -great- downsides, actually. The most important one being a loss of sensitivity for the male, and reduced pleasure for the woman.

 

You have a foreskin for a REASON. Leave it where it's meant to be.

 

You might be happy with it but it shouldn't have been forced upon you and you shouldn't have forced it upon your child. I mean, what if the trend was cutting off the eyelids of your child so they could see better? Or cutting off their ears because it prevented a build-up of earwax? Circumcision is only tolerated because it has a long tradition but looking at it objectively it is wrong for parents to impose it upon their children without their informed consent.

 

As I said, I have no problem with the procedure itself and can see why people would have it done but it should only be done by individuals old enough to make an informed decision for themselves. I also think if people had to wait until they were 13 or 16 to have it done that the percentage of people circumcised would drop dramatically.

 

 I have had a lot of friends with children and while their boys were growing from baby to say about 5, all of the mom's and dads always said they dealt with infection a lot with boys who were uncircumcised vs none. This still is same today with friends that have little ones. 

 

Also can be a problem later in life as you get older and have to pee. Since when you age, you get more of an "innie" and when you have foreskin, it just makes it impossible to pee without making a mess. I have many friends in senior citizens healthcare and they deal with this many times daily.

 

You also have less chance to catch an std. If you don't wash right away after being with a girl, if she was infected with something, this "something" stays on your little buddy a lot easier if you have your foreskin to catch and hide body fluids in the folds. 

 

I don't know about the sensitivity part since i can't judge now. But i experience no pleasure sensation loss, the act "ends" when i want it to :) About the girl, can't say about that either but I can say this. Over here, girls are somewhat grossed out but an uncircumcised penis, not that its a good looking organ, but its even more ugly when it's not cut.

 

About the eyelids and ears, I personally feel this isn't a trend. Each thing you mentioned has life altering effect that change the way you live life.

 

As a side note: I EXTREMELY DISAGREE (and if i known someone who did it, i know i would try to stop it by almost any means possible) with female circumcision, That is pure and utterly wrong in every sense.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

oh ya, and finally the last and biggest reason of all: According to certain traditions, you are forever barred from the Kingdom of Heaven.   

 

(just kidding on that last one, you all know i am atheist!)

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theyarecomingforyou

 I have had a lot of friends with children and while their boys were growing from baby to say about 5, all of the mom's and dads always said they dealt with infection a lot with boys who were uncircumcised vs none. This still is same today with friends that have little ones. 

So should we cut off kids ears because they get ear infections? I have never had an infection as a result of having a foreskin, like many?if not most?others.

 

Also can be a problem later in life as you get older and have to pee. Since when you age, you get more of an "innie" and when you have foreskin, it just makes it impossible to pee without making a mess. I have many friends in senior citizens healthcare and they deal with this many times daily.

You pull back the foreskin when peeing. It's not rocket science.  :rolleyes:

 

You also have less chance to catch an std. If you don't wash right away after being with a girl, if she was infected with something, this "something" stays on your little buddy a lot easier if you have your foreskin to catch and hide body fluids in the folds. 

Great, and if they're old enough to have sex they're old enough to decide whether to have a circumcision.

 

I don't know about the sensitivity part since i can't judge now. But i experience no pleasure sensation loss, the act "ends" when i want it to

No, but it's something that has been widely observed amongst those who have had circumcisions later in life. It stands to reason that if a sensitive part of your body is constantly exposed to contact that the sensitivity will decrease.

 

As a side note: I EXTREMELY DISAGREE (and if i known someone who did it, i know i would try to stop it by almost any means possible) with female circumcision, That is pure and utterly wrong in every sense.

As is male circumcision. It isn't as severe but it is still an unacceptable practice when imposed on children without consent.

 

About the girl, can't say about that either but I can say this. Over here, girls are somewhat grossed out but an uncircumcised penis, not that its a good looking organ, but its even more ugly when it's not cut.

That's a cultural thing, as in North America is it more common for people to be circumcised than not. Here most men aren't circumcised so it's not a factor. And again, if people are old enough to be having sex and are worried about it then they can decide to have a circumcision. That point is completely irrelevant.

 

About the eyelids and ears, I personally feel this isn't a trend. Each thing you mentioned has life altering effect that change the way you live life.

But the thing is it really isn't that different and even if such practices were common it would still be wrong to impose them upon young children.

 

The issue is the lack of consent, which is something you haven't addressed. Circumcision might be the greatest thing ever but it's still for the individual to choose and nothing you have said has convinced me otherwise.

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compl3x

Exaggerative language at its finest to force an agenda.

 

 

Like let's not make irreversible medical decision for another human while they can't consent? What a horrible agenda.

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Rippleman

I can see someone of you are STRONGLY on one side of the fence here, all i can possibly suggest is... Its just a tiny bit of skin that gets removed and provides a lifetime of benefits (in my eyes any ways but i KNOW i could be wrong and biased).  Different culture resulting in different view. But in the end, I would still go to the bar with you all uncut monsters for a beer. :)

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theyarecomingforyou

I can see someone of you are STRONGLY on one side of the fence here, all i can possibly suggest is... Its just a tiny bit of skin that gets removed and provides a lifetime of benefits (in my eyes any ways but i KNOW i could be wrong and biased).  Different culture resulting in different view. But in the end, I would still go to the bar with you all uncut monsters for a beer. :)

Yeah, I certainly have strong opinions on the matter but that wouldn't stop me from associating with someone who believes differently. :)

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Gladiatorus

Israel condemns Council of Europe resolution

 

Oh, poor babies (EU), Israel is complaining... :cry:

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compl3x

Different culture resulting in different view. 

 

Keep in mind female circumcision is also a part of some cultures. It might sound arrogant to judge another cultures practices, but I'll risk it this case.

 

 

 But in the end, I would still go to the bar with you all uncut monsters for a beer. :)

 

 

:laugh:

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Rippleman

Keep in mind female circumcision is also a part of some cultures. It might sound arrogant to judge another cultures practices, but I'll risk it this case.

i too feel that its 100% despicable since it permanently hurts a woman for life. there is the culture thing, but this is 100% negative and for the wrong reasons culture or not. I would try to stop anyone attempting this to a female.

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FloatingFatMan

I can see someone of you are STRONGLY on one side of the fence here, all i can possibly suggest is... Its just a tiny bit of skin that gets removed and provides a lifetime of benefits (in my eyes any ways but i KNOW i could be wrong and biased).  Different culture resulting in different view. But in the end, I would still go to the bar with you all uncut monsters for a beer. :)

 

Do yourself a favour, watch this:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TY5g4fFhxWA

 

It's an episode of Penn & Teller's Bullsh** show, where they cover the whole issue of circumcision.

 

Please note: Episode is NOT SAFE FOR WORK! Which is why I didn't embed it.

 

Once you've watched it, go read up on the issues they raise, then decide if you still agree with it.  Pay special attention to videos of it being done to babies and note the complete lack of any pain relief. It's just cut & scream.  :omg:

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