crazy people Italian schoolboys taught not to kill women

[thomastmc]

No, I neither know someone who is a rapist or feel rape is a good thing. I'm just arguing a different view on how people become rapists, and on how to reduce rape. We have the same goal, we just disagree on the nature of the problem.

 

I don't think the victim would be raping, too. Some women, women who aren't the victims would -- I'm talking about different cases. I'm just underlining I don't think the main issue in rape is a "rape culture" that advantages men over women, like feminists say, and I also don't think it particularly has anything to do with male psychology.

 

What you're doing then is trying to rewrite the science. 

 

The bottomline is that rapists, like murderers and child molesters, are sick and it is a violent crime that is inexcusable. If we have the same goal, then you must agree with that.

[redfish]

What you're doing then is trying to rewrite the science. 

 

The bottomline is that rapists, like murderers and child molesters, are sick and it is a violent crime that is inexcusable. If we have the same goal, then you must agree with that.

 

Yes, its a violent crime and inexcusable. We disagree on the science, I'll leave it at that.

[thomastmc]

Yes, its a violent crime and inexcusable. We disagree on the science, I'll leave it at that.

 

And, the rapists are sick...

 

Like evolution and climate change deniers disagree on the science. The science is extremely clear.

[thomastmc]

I'm pretty certain that murderers know full well murdering is illegal. They do it anyway. As I said earlier. You're trying to say that people murder others because they think its legal and fine?

 

Believe it or not, kids that grow up in the houses of abusers become abusers because they do think it's fine, or at least that it's the way things are supposed to be.

 

By educating young men that it's specifically not OK, or normal, to beat your wife or kill her, the idea is that hopefully some of them will actually understand why it's not OK, and why they shouldn't do it.

[seta-san]

Understanding that it might happen, and saying that they're responsible for it happening to them, are two different things.

 

you're argument in all this is.. 'Cops shouldn't have to wear body armor or learn defensive maneuvers. Teach your children not to shoot or stab cops...'

[thomastmc]

you're argument in all this is.. 'Cops shouldn't have to wear body armor or learn defensive maneuvers. Teach your children not to shoot or stab cops...'

No, my argument is that rapists, like murderers, are to blame for their actions, not their victims.

40% of women are raped at home. 73% women are raped by someone they know.

Your argument that most rapes happen because a woman has put herself in a dangerous situation or is wearing skimpy clothing is just as shameful as it is wrong.

[seta-san]

There *is* a rape culture to some degree, though. I didn't think it was the case for a long time, but it's become more apparent to me as I look around. 1Why is it an insult to a man to be called a girly-man? 2Why do men deride each other, especially in a dominating way, by calling them a 'bi***', something they tend to use for women as well?3 Why are there so many violent terms for sex? 4Why are men encouraged to sleep around, but women are not, and are called dirty or less important if they do?5 Why do we lose respect for a female when she'd had a lot of sexual partners, but not a male? 6Why do you hear "well, she was asking for it" or "look what she was wearing" when a woman is assaulted, but not when a man is?

 

A real man, a true gentleman, uses his strength to protect women, not leverage their generally stronger physical stature to their selfish advantage. The problem, I think, is that women tend to be dehumanised. In many cases, a woman isn't looked at as a human with feelings and thoughts and dreams and complex social situations, a person who has responsibilities at their job and at home, who is sometimes good and sometimes bad, someone who feels insecure at times, who has amazing talents and things they struggle with, someone who is trying to get through life and learning along the way just like you are. No, she's just a pretty decoration, a walking fleshlight, something you can try to convince to let you put your d*** in. A NPC. You don't have to think about how the attack is going to affect her life, because as far as you're concerned she doesn't have one.

 

Not everyone is like this. But what I just described is spot on for some men, and its reinforced by films and video games and society in general, where women are scantily-clad accessories or a prize to be won, and the complex characters you feel for and identify with are largely male. Stop and think about it for a minute. I promise you can think of many examples of this, and relatively few that are the opposite.

 

Let me reiterate, I'm not some crazy feminist. I have met some absolutely amazing men, and some absolutely terrible women. Another product of our culture is that people think in the short-term, they demand satisfaction immediately with no thought of consequences, people are selfish and short-sighted and don't value loyalty and long-term investments. People are expendable, and everyone's guilty of this attitude to some degree. Both genders think this way, in every aspect of society, their sex lives included (again, I'm generalising, not speaking for everyone). I'm not even sexually promiscuous myself--my first partner was my husband of my youth, and have never been one for the 'dating scene'. But I read the stories like this, or any of the ones on this page, and it's just ridiculous. Every human should be free to exercise their basic rights without fear of being victimised for no reason beyond what they were born with between their legs.

 

tl,dr; we need to fix a lot of things in society, and the first step to dealing with a problem is to stop denying it exists. Closed-mindedness is a terrible hindrance to progress.

 

1. For the same reasons that it's an insult for a woman to be called butch.

2. For the same reason as #1. We don't like it when people behave out of their gender role norms. It's interesting to note that when we call a woman a bitch we mean the opposite of what we call men. When we call a man a bitch we're calling him submissive. When we call a woman a bitch we're calling her overbearing so it sort of breaks your comparison.

3. There are so many violent terms in sex probably because in the male brain the parts that control sexual urges are intermingled with the part that controls aggression.

http://www.sify.com/news/sex-and-aggression-linked-in-the-brain-news-scitech-lckmukehcbb.html

4. men aren't encouraged to sleep around. many do and the douches congratulate each other on it.. but not society in general.

5 women get extra stigmatized because a woman who sleeps around and gets pregnant likely won't know who the father is. All you have to do is watch the Maury show to see that this often times results in women just choosing who they want to put on the birth certificate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDZ4fjZq-H4

6. This last one seems bizarre to me. Men get blamed for their own rape too. They are told that because they are a man they should have been able to fight off their attacker. There is far more shame involved when a man gets raped and almost no resources..

 

Second Paragraph.

7. almost everyone around you is dehumanized in your and everyone else's mind. Do you genuinely get upset when you hear that bus of iraqi school kids gets blown up? You might say you do but then you just go about your day.

 

third paragraph.

8. are you going to start quoting Anita Sarkeesian? This is an example of damned if you do, damned if you don't. If you fight your way through the hordes to get the girl... you're objectifying her like a trophy. If you refuse to fight for her then you're entitled. Real misogyny would be if princess peach got kidnapped and instead of fighting to get her back Mario hops on the phone and calls Pauline or Daisy.

 

fourth paragraph.

9."Every human should be free to exercise their basic rights without fear of being victimized for no reason beyond what they were born with between their legs." Fixed that for you. Unfortunately that's not the world we live and and it's never going to be the world we live in. People are fundamentally broken

 

 

In summery. None of what you said actually is evidence of a "Rape Culture". It might contribute to a "misogyny culture". The fact that rape is treated as a more serious crime than murder is evidence that we DON'T live in a rape culture.

[seta-san]

No, my argument is that rapists, like murderers, are to blame for their actions, not their victims.

40% of women are raped at home. 73% women are raped by someone they know.

Your argument that most rapes happen because a woman has put herself in a dangerous situation or is wearing skimpy clothing is just as shameful as it is wrong.

 

but you're encouraging women not to take steps to reduce their chances of being victimized based entirely on the really dumb idea that violent rapist ###### can simply be educated out of being violent rapist ######.

[thomastmc]

1. For the same reasons that it's an insult for a woman to be called butch.

2. For the same reason as #1. We don't like it when people behave out of their gender role norms. It's interesting to note that when we call a woman a bitch we mean the opposite of what we call men. When we call a man a bitch we're calling him submissive. When we call a woman a bitch we're calling her overbearing so it sort of breaks your comparison.

3. There are so many violent terms in sex probably because in the male brain the parts that control sexual urges in intermingled with the part that controls aggression.

http://www.sify.com/news/sex-and-aggression-linked-in-the-brain-news-scitech-lckmukehcbb.html

4. men aren't encouraged to sleep around. many do and the douches congratulate each other on it.. but not society in general.

5 women get extra stigmatized because a woman who sleeps around and gets pregnant likely won't know who the father is. All you have to do is watch the Maury show to see that this often times results in women just choosing who they want to put on the birth certificate.

6. This last one seems bizarre to me. Men get blamed for their own rape too. They are told that because they are a man they should have been able to fight off their attacker. There is far more shame involved when a man gets raped and almost no resources..

Second Paragraph.

7. almost everyone around you is dehumanized in your and everyone else's mind. Do you genuinely get upset when you hear that bus of iraqi school kids gets blown up? You might say you do but then you just go about your day.

third paragraph.

8. are you going to start quoting Anita Sarkeesian? This is an example of damned if you do, damned if you don't. If you fight your way through the hordes to get the girl... you're objectifying her like a trophy. If you refuse to fight for her then you're entitled. Real misogyny would be if princess peach got kidnapped and instead of fighting to get her back Mario hops on the phone and calls Pauline or Daisy.

fourth paragraph.

9."Every human should be free to exercise their basic rights without fear of being victimized for no reason beyond what they were born with between their legs." Fixed that for you. Unfortunately that's not the world we live and and it's never going to be the world we live in. People are fundamentally broken

In summery. None of what you said actually is evidence of a "Rape Culture". It might contribute to a "misogyny culture". The fact that rape is treated as a more serious crime than murder is evidence that we DON'T live in a rape culture.

You don't even understand that you promote the stereotype of a rape culture even as you argue that it doesn't exist.

You've promoted blaming the victim, explicitly.

You've blamed women for wearing skimpy clothes that "get them raped". To paraphrase.

You've tried to lessen the role of men as the primary perpetrator rape, again trying to put more blame on women.

And you rail against the movement of women who are trying to gain the respect that women are not afforded, mainly by people like you.

[thomastmc]

but you're encouraging women not to take steps to reduce their chances of being victimized based entirely on the really dumb idea that violent rapist ****s can simply be educated out of being violent rapist ****s.

You're confusing the topic. The education in Italy is for violence and murder.

Before they become rapists and/or murderers, yes I do think that children can be given the tools that they might not already posses to not kill or rape when they otherwise might have when they grow up.

So you're saying that women shouldn't let friends into their home, or go on dates, or ever be alone with a man other than their brother, or father, or husband. Those are the only precautions a woman could take to avoid most rapes, and they sound exactly like the rape culture of the middle east.

[seta-san]

You don't even understand that you promote the stereotype of a rape culture even as you argue that it doesn't exist.

You've promoted blaming the victim, explicitly.

You've blamed women for wearing skimpy clothes that "get them raped". To paraphrase.

You've tried to lessen the role of men as the primary perpetrator rape, again trying to put more blame on women.

And you rail against the movement of women who are trying to gain the respect that women are not afforded, mainly by people like you.

 

1. please explain

2. the only thing i've promoted is that women take responsibility when they do something that is the equivalent of leaving leaving their front door open and unlocked instead of blaming all men.

3. skimpy clothes Can make you an easier victim. If you were going to attack a woman would you want to attack the one in running shoes and jeans or would you rather attack the one that is drunk and struggling to walk in their heels and fighting to keep their skimpy dress down? One is fit, more able to fight and flee... the other is the equivalent to a wounded gazelle on the Serengeti.

4. No. I never tried to lessen the role of men as primary aggressor in rape... I lessened the role of women as primary victim.

5. I will continue to rail against feminism. Feminism is a bigoted movement. I support egalitarianism between the sexes.

[The Evil Overlord]

Is this a joke?

[seta-san]

Men are the overwhelming majority of rape victims.

Male rape has been called ?The most closely guarded secret of American prisons.? (Weiss and Friar 1974)

There are estimated to be over 300,000 male rapes per year in American prisons and jails.

Meanwhile A United Nations statistical report compiled from government sources showed that more than 250,000 cases of male-female rape or attempted rape were recorded by police annually. The reported data covered 65 countries.

According to the 2009 United States National Crime Victimization Survey estimates, only 55% of rapes and sexual assaults were reported to law enforcement officials. When a male is raped, less than 10% are believed to be reported. Female-male and female-female rape are ignored altogether in this survey.

Other facts regarding men and rape:

* 2.1% of men reported forced vaginal sex compared to 1.6% of women in a relationship in the previous year. From: Predictors of Sexual Coersion. http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/ID45-PR45.pdf

*94% of sexually abused youth in correctional facilities reported being abused by female staff. From: Sexual Victimization in Juvenile Facilities, 2008-09. http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/svjfry09.pdf

* Among inmates reporting staff sexual misconduct, ~ 65% reported a female aggressor. From: Sexual Victimization in Prisons and Jails Reported by Inmates, 2008-09. http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/svpjri0809.pdf

* 50% of homeless youth reported being sexually abused by a female. From: It?s Not What You Think: Sexually Exploited Youth in British Columbia. http://www.nursing.ubc.ca/PDFs/ItsNotWhatYouThink.pdf

Additionally, the rates of inmate-on-inmate sexual abuse reported by women were dramatically higher than the corresponding rates reported by men: among prisoners, 6.9 percent versus 1.7 percent. Men, on the other hand, reported higher rates than women of sexual misconduct by staff members (most of which is committed by staff of the opposite sex),³and in juvenile detention, boys reported much higher rates of abuse by staff than girls did?most, again, committed by women.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2013/oct/24/shame-our-prisons-new-evidence/

 

[thomastmc]

1. please explain

2. the only thing i've promoted is that women take responsibility when they do something that is the equivalent of leaving leaving their front door open and unlocked instead of blaming all men.

3. skimpy clothes Can make you an easier victim. If you were going to attack a woman would you want to attack the one in running shoes and jeans or would you rather attack the one that is drunk and struggling to walk in their heels and fighting to keep their skimpy dress down? One is fit, more able to fight and flee... the other is the equivalent to a wounded gazelle on the Serengeti.

4. No. I never tried to lessen the role of men as primary aggressor in rape... I lessened the role of women as primary victim.

5. I will continue to rail against feminism. Feminism is a bigoted movement. I support egalitarianism between the sexes.

Right, you're the guy who said that misogyny had nothing to do with rape because most rape victims are men if you include prison rape.

You don't actually understand what you're talking about and shouldn't be taken seriously on this topic.

Thanks for reminding me :)

[thomastmc]

Is this a joke?

If it is its a pretty sick and scary one :)

[seta-san]

You're confusing the topic. The education in Italy is for violence and murder.

Before they become rapists and/or murderers, yes I do think that children can be given the tools that they might not already posses to not kill or rape when they otherwise might have when they grow up.

So you're saying that women shouldn't let friends into their home, or go on dates, or ever be alone with a man other than their brother, or father, or husband. Those are the only precautions a woman could take to avoid most rapes, and they sound exactly like the rape culture of the middle east.

'but you're encouraging women not to take steps to reduce their chances of being victimized based entirely on the really dumb idea that violent rapist ****s can simply be educated out of being violent rapist ****s.'

 

fixed to make it on-topic.

[thomastmc]

'but you're encouraging women not to take steps to reduce their chances of being victimized based entirely on the really dumb idea that violent rapist ****s can simply be educated out of being violent rapist ****s.'

fixed to make it on-topic.

Yes, I don't put much weight in the Taliban explanation of why rapes occur, as you do. I also don't blame the victim, as you do.

You're more interesting when you're trying to explain why misogyny has nothing to do with rape because men are the primary victims of rape if you include prison rape :)

[seta-san]

Yes, I don't put much weight in the Taliban explanation of why rapes occur, as you do. I also don't blame the victim, as you do.

You're more interesting when you're trying to explain why misogyny has nothing to do with rape because men are the primary victims of rape if you include prison rape :)

are you going to actually address any of the statistics, sources, or points i make or are you going to side step them all to make make emotional arguments based on hyperbole?

[thomastmc]

are you going to actually address any of the statistics, sources, or points i make or are you going to side step them all to make make emotional arguments based on hyperbole?

Emotional arguments and hyperbole :)

I've posted more sources and statistics in this thread than everyone else combined, you've ignored all of them.

All you've proven with all of your statistics and sources is that men are raping men in prison. Men actually rape men in prison, you cracked that wide open. Who'd have ever thought that happens?

Oh, and women sometimes rape too, mind blowing. The only reason you're even making that point is to shift the blame for rape in society from men to women equally. Its both logically and morally perverse.

What would impress me is if you could show that male prisoners choose who they'll rape by how sexy they dress :)

Your point is pretty one dimensional, most women get raped because they put themselves in dangerous situations and wear skirts, or shorts, or something attractive. Also, that women who wear skirts or shorts or something attractive are responsible if they get raped. Its not only wrong, its an extremely disturbing view, and it is the same view as the Taliban.

You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. You can use facts to make your point, but that doesn't make up for your point being irrational in the larger context of this topic. You're as wrong as I've ever seen anyone be. You are the real life Borat or Kenny Powers I've mentioned before in this topic.