Back to the Start: imagining a better Windows

[Menge]

There is method to that "madness." The left swipe task switcher was developed to be usable by a user holding a tablet with two hands. It's designed so that the user can move between apps with their thumbs. 

I understand that. It's just that the segregation of the switcher lists (Metro apps and desktop apps are never mixed in the lists) confuses users (my mother can't grasp the concept)

[spenser.d]

 

If I am in the desktop, I do not want any metro.

 

Then don't buy Windows 8.

[xWhiplash]

Then don't buy Windows 8.

 

Why?  Windows 8 is ONLY metro?  I have Windows 8.1 and Start8.  Guess what?  I don't see any metro.  I still get the under-the-hood enhancements.

[Dot Matrix]

Why?  Windows 8 is ONLY metro?  I have Windows 8.1 and Start8.  Guess what?  I don't see any metro.  I still get the under-the-hood enhancements.

Then why continue to complain about it?

[Raa]

Very interesting. It definitely holds some promise, will look forward to seeing how this pans out.

[Growled Member]

Then why continue to complain about it?

 

Just to hear you fuss, probably. :D

[benthebear]

I really like the task bar  (Y)  

[trek]

Still missing the jumplists for each MFU programs.

[Xerxes]

I understand that. It's just that the segregation of the switcher lists (Metro apps and desktop apps are never mixed in the lists) confuses users (my mother can't grasp the concept)

What segregation are you talking about? Modern Apps and Desktop Apps both appear in the Alt+Tab switcher just as you'd expect them too. The only real segregation I've noticed is the hot corner/WinKey+Tab switcher will not show individual desktop apps, only "Desktop". Is that what you mean?

[Menge]

What segregation are you talking about? Modern Apps and Desktop Apps both appear in the Alt+Tab switcher just as you'd expect them too. The only real segregation I've noticed is the hot corner/WinKey+Tab switcher will not show individual desktop apps, only "Desktop". Is that what you mean?

Exactly. Also: metro apps don't appear on the task bar. It's inconsistent where you can find each type of app and how.

[xWhiplash]

Just to hear you fuss, probably. :D

 

Do you guys do any support for computers?  Tell me how this can POSSIBLY be a good thing?  People have a VERY hard time without the start menu.  Imagine how much trouble they would have if they metro-fy the start menu.  I am sick of hearing people having issues with the Start Screen and complain about the start menu missing.  I am also sick of businesses saying they will not upgrade JUST because of the start menu.  A metro-fied start menu will not help.  It just wont.  It won't help with businesses (because it will require training), and it won't help with the general public (because they will need to learn how to use the new start menu).  The reason Start 8 and the others are so popular is because there is no learning curve (because they are basically the same as Windows 7).

[Dot Matrix]

Do you guys do any support for computers?  People have a VERY hard time without the start menu.  Imagine how much trouble they would have if they metro-fy the start menu.  I am sick of hearing people having issues with the Start Screen and complain about the start menu missing.  A metro-fied start menu will not help.  It just wont.  It won't help with businesses (because it will require training), and it won't help with the general public (because they will need to learn how to use the new start menu).  The reason Start 8 and the others are so popular is because there is no learning curve (because they are basically the same as Windows 7).

And yak, yak, yak, yak, yak. Did you ever read what I wrote above? What is Microsoft supposed to do? Not change a damn thing anymore because people have to learn new things? It hasn't stopped them before, why are you clamoring now as if this is something new?

Yeah, businesses don't want anything. Same story different day. They don't want the mouse, they don't want the start menu, they don't want aero glass, they don't want tablets, they don't want the start screen. Blah, blah, blah. What do businesses want then? An abacus? We've all heard it before when new things come out. 

 

Too bad none of it has prevented business from eventually upgrading, sorry.

There's ALWAYS training involved. There's ALWAYS something new to learn. That's how the upgrade game is played. No ifs ands or buts about it. Complaining about it isn't going to change that. Also don't even think about crying about jumping to another platform, because they do the same thing.

I hate to sound so cynical, but this nonsense of change needs to stop. It's not going away.

EDIT: And, yes, I do do support. And you know what? It takes two minutes to walk a user through the new Start Screen. A whole two minutes.

[xWhiplash]

And yak, yak, yak, yak, yak. Did you ever read what I wrote above? What is Microsoft supposed to do? Not change a damn thing anymore because people have to learn new things? It hasn't stopped them before, why are you clamoring now as if this is something new?

There's ALWAYS training involved. There's ALWAYS something new to learn. That's how the upgrade game is played. No ifs ands or buts about it. Complaining about it isn't going to change that. Also don't even think about crying about jumping to another platform, because they do the same thing.

I hate to sound so cynical, but this nonsense of change needs to stop. It's not going away.

 

Sigh.  Didn't Microsoft themselves say the desktop environment was ONLY....ONLY there for legacy reasons?  Then bring back the old start menu for LEGACY REASONS as well.

 

Um no.  When people upgraded from XP (hell even earlier) to 7, there was NO training involved.  To open up Office in Windows XP you go to Start - All Programs - Microsoft Office.  That did NOT change in Windows 7.

 

The end user does NOT do system administrative tasks.  That is what the IT department is there for.  The end user just opens the programs they need to use.

[The Evil Overlord]

~snip~

Why, in the second half of your post, are you arguing with yourself??

[Dot Matrix]

Sigh.  Didn't Microsoft themselves say the desktop environment was ONLY....ONLY there for legacy reasons?  Then bring back the old start menu for LEGACY REASONS as well.

 

Um no.  When people upgraded from XP (hell even earlier) to 7, there was NO training involved.  To open up Office in Windows XP you go to Start - All Programs - Microsoft Office.  That did NOT change in Windows 7.

 

The end user does NOT do system administrative tasks.  That is what the IT department is there for.  The end user just opens the programs they need to use.

Really? When my old employer upgraded to Windows 7, there was two days worth of training involved. I also remember having to train my parents on the new security features, and file backup features after they upgraded off XP.

Why, in the second half of your post, are you arguing with yourself??

I quoted my post as reference.

[xWhiplash]

Really? When my old employer upgraded to Windows 7, there was two days worth of training involved. I also remember having to train my parents on the new security features, and file backup features after they upgraded off XP.

I quoted my post as reference.

 

And what did the training include?  I am talking about businesses here.  No employee should do their own backups and be concerned with the security features.  That is what the IT department and backup servers are there for.

[Dot Matrix]

And what did the training include?  I am talking about businesses here.  No employee should do their own backups and be concerned with the security features.  That is what the IT department and backup servers are there for.

Wrong. Employees were trained on the new layout, new features, and yes, SECURITY. They were shown the new security features of the OS, because YES, users need to be concerned with security. Unless you like having rampant security issues with your networks?

[xWhiplash]

Wrong. Employees were trained on the new layout, new features, and yes, SECURITY. They were shown the new security features of the OS, because YES, users need to be concerned with security. Unless you like having rampant security issues with your networks?

 

What new OS features make Office perform better?  They do NOT need to know all of this stuff to do better at their jobs.  However, Windows 8 REQUIRES training for people to navigate the start screen.  People get lost there.

 

The IT department is supposed to lock the systems down.  They are supposed to not allow external websites, and users should not be running as an administrator (therefore they should not be installing anything).  IE can disable downloading files and any plugins.  Their email should be all internal email only.  Some businesses even lock down the USB thumb drives and CD/DVD drives so there is NO way to get malicious software on the system.

 

What kind of security risks are employees running into?  Unless their job is to download random files, I do not see what the issue is.

 

Again, if you are in IT of course you will need training when new security and new features are introduced.  But why does an office worker that only uses MS Word/Excel and INTERNAL outlook emails only need all of this training?  Most business I know did not go though all of this since the start menu works basically the same way.  And turning every single employee into a security expert....why?  The security risks can be avoided in the first place by severely locking down the systems and network.

[Dot Matrix]

What new OS features make Office perform better?  They do NOT need to know all of this stuff to do better at their jobs.  However, Windows 8 REQUIRES training for people to navigate the start screen.  People get lost there.

 

The IT department is supposed to lock the systems down.  They are supposed to not allow external websites, and users should not be running as an administrator (therefore they should not be installing anything).  IE can disable downloading files and any plugins.  Their email should be all internal email only.  Some businesses even lock down the USB thumb drives and CD/DVD drives so there is NO way to get malicious software on the system.

 

What kind of security risks are employees running into?  Unless their job is to download random files, I do not see what the issue is.

 

Again, if you are in IT of course you will need training when new security and new features are introduced.  But why does an office worker that only uses MS Word/Excel and INTERNAL outlook emails only need all of this training?  Most business I know did not go though all of this since the start menu works basically the same way.

Just where the frak do you work? Since when are employees lock into internal networks only? That doesn't make sense.

No, they connect out. They have dozens of customers they need to connect with externally. Some external sites are blocked, but they are not prevented from connecting out. That just doesn't happen in the workplace.

Training has never hindered upgrades before. It's part of the upgrade process, you don't just throw a new OS onto a user's system and not train them, no matter how small the upgrade is. Sorry.

[JustGeorge]

For all my joking and taking jabs @ Dot Matrix aside, I'm ok with the Start Screen after the changes introduced in 8.1. It works great on my HTPC and has always worked well on WP8. That being said, I'm all for choice and if they give people the option to use a refined Start Menu, or stick with the Start Screen, then by all means!

[xWhiplash]

Just where the frak do you work? Since when are employees lock into internal networks only? That doesn't make sense.

No, they connect out. They have dozens of customers they need to connect with externally. Some external sites are blocked, but they are not prevented from connecting out. That just doesn't happen in the workplace.

Training has never hindered upgrades before. It's part of the upgrade process, you don't just throw a new OS onto a user's system and not train them, no matter how small the upgrade is. Sorry.

 

Does every business (and every single employee) deal with customers themselves?  No.  That is usually for managers and leaders to do that.  Most places I have seen locked down the network of the "grunt workers" to the INTRANET only.  They cannot access YouTube, they cannot access anything malicious.  

 

That still doesn't explain why you need to teach every single employee the complexities of OS security.  

 

All I am saying is, a metro-fied start menu will not work out.  People have not been complaining about missing a mini start screen, they have been complaining about no start menu.

[Dadwen]

Hmm not sure how other places do it but where I work they have the security locked down, and a locally install proxy client that takes over once the user leaves our network with the system that still works as if they were going though or network.

(training for them from XP to 7 was a one page document and a link they could go to for more info with videos and such, but out of the over 2500 employee's I think about 10 used the link.)

[Dot Matrix]

Does every business (and every single employee) deal with customers themselves?  No.  That is usually for managers and leaders to do that.  Most places I have seen locked down the network of the "grunt workers" to the INTRANET only.  They cannot access YouTube, they cannot access anything malicious.  

 

That still doesn't explain why you need to teach every single employee the complexities of OS security.  

 

All I am saying is, a metro-fied start menu will not work out.  People have not been complaining about missing a mini start screen, they have been complaining about no start menu.

When those employees do customer service, yes. Maybe in an office building *some* employees are locked, but last time I was in an office that wasn't the case either. When my dad retired from data entry he still was able to connect out to the Internet. No matter what, security is still an essential piece in user training whether they connect out or not. I know of no employee that can't connect out to the Internet at least once during the day.

[Nick H. Supervisor]

If it looks like in the video then that would be a reasonable compromise for me. I'm not sure I'm a fan of the look of the screenshot though, where the start menu runs along the whole bottom of the page. But that's just aesthetics, I guess.

[xWhiplash]

When those employees do customer service, yes. Maybe in an office building *some* employees are locked, but last time I was in an office that wasn't the case either. When my dad retired from data entry he still was able to connect out to the Internet. No matter what, security is still an essential piece in user training whether they connect out or not. I know of no employee that can't connect out to the Internet at least once during the day.

 Yes that is what I said.  Usually managers or leaders deal with customers personally.  But really, security training would not have changed from XP to 7 or 8.  Are you talking about training them the complexities of BitLocker (which employees should not be doing themselves)?  The complexities of managing UAC (which the IT department takes care of, not the employees)?  Teaching them what Data Execution Protection is?  These, just to name a few, are the new security features.  Are you saying employees should be taught these things?  Their heads will probably be spinning within one minute!