Yahoo news: Windows 9 concept: Saving Windows from itself with a focus on

[Orange Battery]

I think MS need to realise that you can not have a 'one size fits all' approach to the OS.

 

Windows 7 was such a success because it catered for the desktop in a crisp, detailed way, as did XP

 

MS lost out when they got rid of the Windows Mobile name, I would have kept it.  Windows Mobile (in the same style as Win 8) for the tablet/phone and a Win 8 (Win 7 UI with even more detail and precision) for the desktop. 

 

Detail for desktop, tactical for tablets.

 

So simple.

[PGHammer]

For your average user the Start Menu is everything. My wife still doesn't know how to pin apps to the taskbar. I set it up for her and she uses it. She is lost without her Start Menu.

 

The question begs - IS your wife that truly representative of the average user?  I'm not saying she is or isn't - all I'm asking is that you expand the sample pool - the data is too sparse.

[redfish]

My wife still doesn't know how to pin apps to the taskbar.

 

I hope you showed her.

[PGHammer]

I think MS need to realise that you can not have a 'one size fits all' approach to the OS.

 

Windows 7 was such a success because it catered for the desktop in a crisp, detailed way, as did XP

 

MS lost out when they got rid of the Windows Mobile name, I would have kept it.  Windows Mobile (in the same style as Win 8) for the tablet/phone and a Win 8 (Win 7 UI with even more detail and precision) for the desktop. 

 

Detail for desktop, tactical for tablets.

 

So simple.

Orange - that was tried with TabletPC Edition - and how well did that go over?

 

I get why the pointing-device-centric UI and UX hung on for as long as it has - that was also pretty much the only practical hardware available.

 

However, that is no longer the case - and along with that comes the rather nasty problem of finding a UI and UX that can adapt - on the fly, if needed - to how the same hardware changes.

 

Therefore, ModernUI.  It is still usable with a keyboard and mouse - with OR without third-party utilities to assist.  (As has been pointed out in this thread alone, not everyone needs the assist to use ModernUI with a keyboard and mouse.) 

[DConnell Member]

For your average user the Start Menu is everything. My wife still doesn't know how to pin apps to the taskbar. I set it up for her and she uses it. She is lost without her Start Menu.

 

My 75-year old mother is also in the "typical user" range. She's the family genealogist and uses Family Tree Maker constantly. She keeps photos on her computer, maintains her personal records in Excel and Word, plays games, keeps in touch with relatives using Facebook. Maintenance, updates, backups and that sort of thing she leaves to me. She's a bit ahead of the game compared to some retirees, but she doesn't claim to be a guru.

 

I showed her how to find her way around Metro, and how to get to the desktop and all the basics, and she was able to get around in less than an hour, and now uses 8 just as easily as she did 7. No confusion over the lack of a Start Menu - I explained that the Screen replaced it and showed her how to work it.

 

She now happily uses a mix of Modern and Desktop programs that suits her needs. She occasionally asks how to do things in 8.1, but no more so than when she had XP or 7.

 

I'm not saying nobody should have trouble just because she didn't, but Mom does show that the typical user doesn't necessarily or always need the Menu. It's more of a case by case thing.

 

Did you put a replacement menu on to help your wife get around? I actually offered to install one for my Mom, but she decided to give the new way a try.

[Dot Matrix]

Dont see how they cannot make it so the start screen is enabled automatically when used on a tablet/touch device...then defaults to a start menu when used on a desktop. Software is smart enough to determine what kind of device you are using and auto selects the Start screen or menu. Then over time when touch devices become the norm, this feature will phase itself out.

First of all, define "desktop." what about all in ones, laptops, tablets like the Surface?

See the problem? Too much back and forth there will cause user confusion. Unification is the way to go. Metro across all devices.

[Athernar]

First of all, define "desktop." what about all in ones, laptops, tablets like the Surface?

See the problem? Too much back and forth there will cause user confusion. Unification is the way to go. Metro across all devices.

 

No, clearly the way forward is the start menu enforced on all devices and Metro stripped out.

 

Especially with phones, people should be forced to carry around a mouse and keyboard with their Windows phones to use the new WP8.1 phonetop start menu.

 

Unifying and forcing desktop paradigms on all other form factors is the future of computing as we know it.

[techbeck]

First of all, define "desktop." what about all in ones, laptops, tablets like the Surface?

See the problem? Too much back and forth there will cause user confusion. Unification is the way to go. Metro across all devices.

 

I meant desktop users or users with no touch screens.  Wouldnt be hard to auto switch between the two.  MS just wanted to unify the PC/Phone/Tablets.  Which is all well and good and I support that, but abandoning a huge user base is not the way to do it.  Change takes time....it doesnt happen over night.

[thomastmc]

I think it's funny that those who hate the Modern UI so much actually want Modern UI apps to be windowed on the desktop. I think this just adds to the point that a lot of the dislike is not about Modern UI in general, but familiarity.
 

Id prolly use Modern apps if I could run them in a window on the desktop. I just dont want to ever, EVER, see that horrendous Metro UI. EVER. Then again theres bugger all good apps out there anyway :/

 
So, you would prefer the Modern UI in windowed apps on the desktop, and might actually use them, but you hate the Modern UI and don't want to ever see it? This makes absolutely no sense to me.

 

There are a lot of great Modern UI apps... BTW. Which just shows that those who don't use it really don't have a clue of what their missing. If you can't find some great Modern UI apps It either means you just don't have many uses for a computer in general, or many interests.

[DConnell Member]

I meant desktop users or users with no touch screens.  Wouldnt be hard to auto switch between the two.  MS just wanted to unify the PC/Phone/Tablets.  Which is all well and good and I support that, but abandoning a huge user base is not the way to do it.  Change takes time....it doesnt happen over night.

 

How are they "abandoned"? The desktop is still there in 8, and it runs every desktop program I've thrown at it with no problems at all. Both the Modern and desktop side work extremely well with mouse and keyboard. The only difference is this is the first version of Windows on which touch support isn't a horribly-implemented afterthought.

 

I didn't even own a Surface until 2 weeks ago, and worked just fine on my desktop and laptop running 8. The only significant change to the desktop is the removal of the old Start Menu.

 

I don't see any evidence of abandonment.

[Dot Matrix]

I meant desktop users or users with no touch screens. Wouldnt be hard to auto switch between the two. MS just wanted to unify the PC/Phone/Tablets. Which is all well and good and I support that, but abandoning a huge user base is not the way to do it. Change takes time....it doesnt happen over night.

They're not abandoning anyone. Hence Metro on *all* devices. Adapting to at least using the new start screen doesn't take much effort.

Alienating people without touch screens would be abandonment. As Microsoft works to improve and evolve the new environment, those users would be left out in the cold.

[redfish]

First of all, define "desktop." what about all in ones, laptops, tablets like the Surface?

See the problem? Too much back and forth there will cause user confusion. Unification is the way to go. Metro across all devices.

 

Yea, plus I think its a mistake that people are referring to the Surface as a "tablet." Its not. It has tablet functionality, but is also workable as a laptop or desktop.

 

Of course, there's a difference between Pro and RT. RT doesn't have good desktop capabilities yet, although I'm hoping they bring the WinRT API to the Desktop so we can use WinRT to make processor-independent Desktop apps, purchasable from Windows Store.

[PGHammer]

I meant desktop users or users with no touch screens.  Wouldnt be hard to auto switch between the two.  MS just wanted to unify the PC/Phone/Tablets.  Which is all well and good and I support that, but abandoning a huge user base is not the way to do it.  Change takes time....it doesnt happen over night.

techbeck - are you basically saying that newer hardware formfactors - most of which are unsuitable or unsuited to a pointing-device-centric UI - should be left out in the cold?

 

And I said nothing about single-formfactor devices whatever - I referred primarily to adaptable devices; those that have a choice of input methods (and especially those with a tablet-style detachable screen, or even Ultrabooks where the keyboard, instead of always being attached, acts more like a dock, and is detachable).  All too often, even when that hardware was available for Windows 7, it was left at the mercy of OEMs or device manufacturers - and they often badly mauled how the device worked in 7 (and other operating systems - didn't early Android-driven adaptables, such as ASUS' own Transformer series, also have similar issues?).

 

Further, you in particular, techbeck, are no fan of tablets or even smartphones, by your own admission - you see them as *poachers* on the desktop formfactor's *turf*.

 

All i have said is that newer hardware presents a nasty problem for Microsoft in general, and Windows in particular - how does one adapt to hardware that is unsuitable or unsuited to the traditional UI or UX without following the failed path of creating a niche OS?

 

Athernar - your option is worse than ModernUI would be, and basically attacks tablets and other adaptables by saddling them with an unsuitable UI and UX - is that, in fact, the idea?

[techbeck]

They're not abandoning anyone. Hence Metro on *all* devices. Adapting to at least using the new start screen doesn't take much effort.

Alienating people without touch screens would be abandonment. As Microsoft works to improve and evolve the new environment, those users would be left out in the cold.

 

Ok, sorry.  They screwed the people with non touch devices and abandoned a approach that served them well many times in the past.

 

We can argue about his all day long but it will do no good.  You are set in your view that MS did great with Windows 8.  Many others have different opinions and thoughts about it and do not agree.

[Dot Matrix]

Yea, plus I think its a mistake that people are referring to the Surface as a "tablet." Its not. It has tablet functionality, but is also workable as a laptop or desktop.

Of course, there's a difference between Pro and RT. RT doesn't have good desktop capabilities yet, although I'm hoping they bring the WinRT API to the Desktop so we can use WinRT to make processor-independent Desktop apps, purchasable from Windows Store.

I think they'll be doing the exact opposite with RT. Especially if recent rumors surrounding it and Windows Phone pan out to be true.

[techbeck]

techbeck - are you basically saying that newer hardware formfactors - most of which are unsuitable or unsuited to a pointing-device-centric UI - should be left out in the cold?

No, I said that there should be an option for those who are used to the Start Menu. MS has a history of supporting the old but still adding the new. This gave users time to adapt to the new and make the change. Then phase out the old. The Start Menu debate is the biggest issue with Win8. If they gave users the option, Win8 would of sold better and had a much better acceptance.

 

Further, you in particular, techbeck, are no fan of tablets or even smartphones, by your own admission - you see them as *poachers* on the desktop formfactor's *turf*.

What are you talking about? I have a smart phone and a tablet (looks down at sig). Not sure what I admitted here and just wanted better support/features for non touch users.

[Dot Matrix]

Ok, sorry. They screwed the people with non touch devices and abandoned a approach that served them well many times in the past.

We can argue about his all day long but it will do no good. You are set in your view that MS did great with Windows 8. Many others have different opinions and thoughts about it and do not agree.

I don't feel screwed at all. In fact, I'm elated they didn't pass me over. You may feel like you're stuck in "Tabletland," but I feel like my desktop is now augmented for better input.

[techbeck]

I don't feel screwed at all. In fact, I'm elated they didn't pass me over. You may feel like you're stuck in "Tabletland," but I feel like my desktop is now augmented for better input.

And there are the same amount of people, give or take, that have the opposite view. I am glad Windows 8 is working great for you but for many, it isnt.

[Growled Member]

The question begs - IS your wife that truly representative of the average user?  I'm not saying she is or isn't - all I'm asking is that you expand the sample pool - the data is too sparse.

 

From my experience at helping people with their computers (friends and family) as well as work.....I think so. A lot of average users are just plain ignorant when it comes to using computers. You know the old joke about someone saying the Internet didn't work and come to find out they had deleted the Internet Explorer shortcut.....I had that happen once.

 

My wife has no interest in computers other than doing what she likes doing on them, mainly email, Facebook, Pinterest, banking, and Amazon and playing a couple of games. I have shown her how to pin and she always forgets how she did that the next time it needs doing. Same thing at work. I just set it up for them and if they accidentally delete it, I put it back on there for them. Saves a lot of grief.

 

Interesting enough, when I was playing with Windows 8 I let my wife play with it too for a while. She hated it. Said she would never use it again. 

[techbeck]

My wife has no interest in computers other than doing what she likes doing on them, mainly email, Facebook, Pinterest, banking, and Amazon and playing a couple of games. I have shown her how to pin and she always forgets how she did that the next time it needs doing. Same thing at work. I just set it up for them and if they accidentally delete it, I put it back on there for them. Saves a lot of grief.

Sounds like most of my family members.

[redfish]

My wife has no interest in computers other than doing what she likes doing on them.

 

I have no interest in computers other than what I like doing on them. :/

[PGHammer]

Sounds like most of my family members.

Hence it being a USER problem - not a user interface problem.  Been there, done that - and before the idea of a GUI took root.

 

How many of you were employed in 1987?  While desktop computers existed, color displays were pricey, and the GUI was still being born.  While both word-processing programs and spreadsheet software existed, both were entirely text-driven.  Given all that, most clerical people were just learning how to use those newly-arriving PCs with their green (or amber) screens.  Word processing software (such as MultiMate or the newly-ported Word Perfect) was despised - give most clerical or secretarial folks an old-fashioned TYPEWRITER (such as the IBM Selectric) and they would be quite happy.  Me?  I was a bottom-of-the-pecking-order clerk-typist working for the Navy in Crystal City, Virginia.  Unlike most of the clerical herd, despite being able to use a typewriter, I actually didn't run off and hide - or cringe in fear - at those new-fangled computers.  I actually got permission to take the manual for WordPerfect home - which I did - and spent an entire week's worth of evenings boning up on the program.  Basically, being able to adjust to changes - and this was one of the early ones - has kept me being able to earn a living - not to mention kept me relatively sane.

 

Segue to today.  The pace of change has, if anything, accelerated, not slowed down.  I'm fifty-two - so think - how old was I in 1987?  Yet most of you sound like the Acolytes of Canute - brooms in hand, trying to sweep back the tides of change.  You have as little chance of that as the Acolytes did with their brooms.  You have two choices - adapt or drown.

[techbeck]

Hence it being a USER problem - not a user interface problem. Been there, done that - and before the idea of a GUI took root

How is it a user problem when a company changes things that make it harder for a lot of people. MS changes something that users used for several years and forced them in to a new way. Not everyone is tech savvy and its up to the companies to make sure their products appease the majority. IF they dont, then the company failed to produce and market their product properly. And the fact that MS brought back the Start Button, and rumors of a start menu, tells me that the company realized their fault and are changing things to help others.

And complaints are coming from the tech savvy people as well. Lots just do not like it. To them, the tiles are ugly, take up to much space, and a burden to use. This wouldn't be a problem if a few people were complaining. However, it is a problem since a huge number are complaining.

I use Windows 8.1 at work and I have little problems with it. There are things I dont like, but since 8.1 was released, I am adapting. I would never ever install/use the original Win8. I just dont like it but 8.1 added improvements and things Win8 was missing.

It is easy to stay in your own little world and talk about your experiences and at the same time, not sure why people are having problems and telling them to deal with it. Not saying you said this..but this seems to be the attitude lots here have towards people who do not are for Win8 as it is.

You have two choices - adapt or drown.

I prefer option #3. Complain/voice your opinions and hope/wait for the company to respond. Which in this case, MS is listening as well as they did with the XBOX. More and more companies are starting to listen to their consumers as if they dont make them happy, the companies will go out of business. I am betting we will see more and more of companies listening since competition is heating up more and more.

I get why people like it, I get why people dont like it. I do think that if MS did things differently and stuck by what they always did in the past, then Win8 would of been received much MUCH better than it is now.

And that is really my opinion and all I have to say. I am tired of repeating myself. :)

[.Ruby]

I think the fragmentation of people who don't like Modern UI outweighs those who do like it. For that reason alone it's enough to believe MS would design the next UI for Windows based on the market analysis on the findings of the majority

[PGHammer]

How is it a user problem when a company changes things that make it harder for a lot of people. MS changes something that users used for several years and forced them in to a new way. Not everyone is tech savvy and its up to the companies to make sure their products appease the majority. IF they dont, then the company failed to produce and market their product properly. And the fact that MS brought back the Start Button, and rumors of a start menu, tells me that the company realized their fault and are changing things to help others.

And complaints are coming from the tech savvy people as well. Lots just do not like it. To them, the tiles are ugly, take up to much space, and a burden to use. This wouldn't be a problem if a few people were complaining. However, it is a problem since a huge number are complaining.

I use Windows 8.1 at work and I have little problems with it. There are things I dont like, but since 8.1 was released, I am adapting. I would never ever install/use the original Win8. I just dont like it but 8.1 added improvements and things Win8 was missing.

It is easy to stay in your own little world and talk about your experiences and at the same time, not sure why people are having problems and telling them to deal with it. Not saying you said this..but this seems to be the attitude lots here have towards people who do not are for Win8 as it is.

I prefer option #3. Complain/voice your opinions and hope/wait for the company to respond. Which in this case, MS is listening as well as they did with the XBOX. More and more companies are starting to listen to their consumers as if they dont make them happy, the companies will go out of business. I am betting we will see more and more of companies listening since competition is heating up more and more.

I get why people like it, I get why people dont like it. I do think that if MS did things differently and stuck by what they always did in the past, then Win8 would of been received much MUCH better than it is now.

And that is really my opinion and all I have to say. I am tired of repeating myself. :)

techbeck, I never - as in ever - said that adapting would be easy; haven't I, in fact, said that the change would be anything but?

 

However, in all too many cases, resisting change is like trying to sweep back the tide with that broom - is it really worth the effort expended for little to no gain?

 

Worse, by this reversal of fortune, will it, in reality do Microsoft any good?  If tablets continue to sell - regardless of why - and Microsoft tries to stick a hostile UI on them, they will, in fact, be scorned - and their sales will tank.

 

It's also why I asked whether it is the Start menu you want back, or tablets you want to die - some folks hate tablets as a platform - regardless of what OS is on them.  Others don't want Windows - of any sort - on tablets (for many reasons, including adapting to a new user interface/experience).  This coalition of those in favor of the Start menu and haters of tablets as a formfactor reminds me of the alliance between tea-party groups and the mainstream GOP - or even between the far-left environmentalists and the Democratic party - fraught with all sorts of untended consequences for all sides.  I'd simply rather avoid getting caught in the eventual crossfire and bloodbath - unfortunately, as a Windows user, I'm rather trapped - and I hate the idea!