Skiver Veteran Posted January 20, 2014 Veteran Share Posted January 20, 2014 I have to say, the thing I don't get is why people let what may or may not be "flame bait" threads get the reaction you think a poster may be trying to get? I haven't read most of this thread because I could see it going south pretty quickly and in reality I got the info I needed from the first post so skipped right to the end. I am not passing judgement on this topic or the OP and I don't think you guys are strictly calling them out as being guilty in this case or not BUT, if you think this is flame bait or trolling or whatever you have three options as I see it; A: Read the source if you are interest and move on, ignore the thread. B: Reply on topic and ignore anything you may percieve as flame bait/trolling... Don't get caught up in anything because at the end of the day. You are the one giving the OP exactly what they wanted. C: Report it the thread and any posts in that thread that you think is guilty of flame bait/trolling. As quoted below, it is against the guidelines in this forum and it will be reviewed. Please discuss topics respectfully. Attempts to bait others into flamewars will not be tolerated. The use of "fanboy" (or any similar derogatory term) when used against a specific member or group of members will be considered flame-bait and/or a personal attack. You also may not join a discussion for the purpose of destroying it by making lame and unhelpful comments. Such people will be dealt with accordingly. In summary, no flamebaiting, no trolling and no personal attacks. Lastly and above all, just remember at the end of the day, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Remember that whilst you may not agree, respect that it is their opinion and they are entitled to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Showan Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 And that is why I'm bowing to your belief that even if it doesn't include reviews, I could create a series of Let's Play videos on Titanfall, telling people it's terrible, it looks crap, it can't compete with X competitor, and you're telling me MS will still pay them for it. Product endorsement is only ever positive, which is why I'm asking you why is it ok? You've even gone as far as to pick the keyword "endorsement" yourself. This is why people have an issue with it, including myself, and I'd be exactly the same regardless of who it was across any media format. It's basically like this. Promoting product: Want the best gaming experience. Then get yourself an Xbox One for all your gaming needs. = Get $$$ Promoting product: Want the ultimate entertainment device. Then you want an Xbox One: Get $$$ Promoting product: Don't ya just sometimes with that you could tell your tv what to do? Well now you can, on Xbox One = Get $$$ No review really is given. As far as ethics and moral playing into this. Well everyone has a different opinion on these things... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrunknMunky Veteran Posted January 20, 2014 Veteran Share Posted January 20, 2014 Ars Tech have picked up on the story now and go into advertising scrutinies more than moral, which I think is interesting to note: The arrangement as described might go against the FTC's guidelines for the use of endorsements in advertising, which demand full disclosure when there is "a connection between the endorser and the seller of the advertised product that might materially affect the weight or credibility of the endorsement." The document offers a specific example of a video game blogger who gets a free game system that he later talks about on his blog. That blogger would need to disclose that gift, the FTC says, because his opinion is "disseminated via a form of consumer-generated media in which his relationship to the advertiser is not inherently obvious." That same reasoning would seem to apply to the opinions expressed by the video makers participating in this promotion. Neither Microsoft nor Machinima responded immediately to a request for comment on the matter, but we'll let you know if and when we hear from them. http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/01/stealth-marketing-microsoft-paying-youtubers-for-xbox-one-mentions/ Fourjays 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trooper11 Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Ars Tech have picked up on the story now and go into advertising scrutinies more than moral, which I think is interesting to note: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/01/stealth-marketing-microsoft-paying-youtubers-for-xbox-one-mentions/ And I completely agree with them. Disclosure is where I draw the line. If the casters disclose it, good for them. MS or Machinima are not baring ways of letting viewers know they are being sponsored. If casters do not share that, then heck, they could be in violation of all sorts of laws. Maybe that is enough to scare caster into being open with their viewers. MS/Machinima already made it public, its up to the casters now. Of course, casters could get around the rules by simply not offering a personal opinion on the product. Maybe a demo or walkthrough of a game that is limited to explaining how it works does not fall under the same rules. spenser.d 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted January 21, 2014 Author Subscriber² Share Posted January 21, 2014 As boogie was brought up already in this topic, here's his video on this GotBored 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trooper11 Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 As boogie was brought up already in this topic, here's his video on this Fair opinion. Well its clear this will be another split point, but at least we all said our piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dead.cell Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Personally, I think it's a load of garbage, and I'll tell you why: being on this forum, how many times would I see someone post "Man, you sound like a paid [company] shill!" If people dislike the idea of someone spreading their opinion to the point that it appears almost as a paid advertisement for that company, THEN WHY THEY HECK would anyone be okay with the ACTUAL practice taking place? Seems a bit hypocritical, does it not? I'm sorry, but if I ask for someone's opinion, I'd like for them to be honest. If I want a load of garbage, I'll just talk to any particular sales rep with that particular company. AT&T is amazing? Wow, Mr. AT&T rep, I totally didn't expect that from you!! It's not that I don't expect companies like Microsoft to do this though, which is why I tell people to quit sucking the teet of companies and make their own well informed opinions instead of pre-ordering garbage because marketing hype and whatnot. Lord Method Man and GotBored 2 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GotBored Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Just did a search for the Microsoft promotion tag 'XB1M13' and there are already over 6800 videos on YouTube trying to cash in on the paid--positive-review offer from Microsoft. If a Video Producer accepted the Microsoft offer they had to sign a legal agreement that says they could not inform anybody (Their viewers or a third-party) within the video itself or otherwise that they are being paid to give as their personal opinion this endorsement to the Xbox One. http://www.pcworld.com/article/2089245/microsoft-paying-youtube-personalities-for-positive-xbox-one-endorsements.html "You agree to keep confidential at all times all matters relating to this Agreement, including, without limitation, the Promotional Requirements, and the CPM Compensation, listed above." Additionally, creators "may not say anything negative or disparaging about Machinima, Xbox One, or any of its Games" in their videos. From the legal agreement here: http://pastebin.com/vec6vjv5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Showan Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 LOL..... I've never seen so much grasping at straws... It's Microsoft's money to do as they please. It cost you nothing, pay it no mind then. If what Microsoft is doing cost someone their life, then be concerned. But all this back and forth, and it has absolutely no effect on your life. There is no morals or ethics to be though about on this. It's a freaking video game. If Microsoft were pumping out cigarettes with no filter and paying people to tell the world how safe, and good, or what not it is, then that's a problem. Because peoples lives are on the line. But to grasp at straws over a company wanting a video game promoted. Get over yourselves already... Who cares... If somebody doesn't wake up tomorrow because of this promotion, then someone should be upset. Until then leave it alone... Thief000 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GotBored Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 LOL..... I've never seen so much grasping at straws... It's Microsoft's money to do as they please. It cost you nothing, pay it no mind then. If what Microsoft is doing cost someone their life, then be concerned. But all this back and forth, and it has absolutely no effect on your life. There is no morals or ethics to be though about on this. It's a freaking video game. If Microsoft were pumping out cigarettes with no filter and paying people to tell the world how safe, and good, or what not it is, then that's a problem. Because peoples lives are on the line. But to grasp at straws over a company wanting a video game promoted. Get over yourselves already... Who cares... If somebody doesn't wake up tomorrow because of this promotion, then someone should be upset. Until then leave it alone... So in your eyes Microsoft is awesome until they start to kill people or become a cigarette company which removes the filter and lies about the hazards associated with smoking.. Even worse promotes it as safe and good? (So worse than today's cigarette companies) And for some people it will cost them, they are probably on YouTube now being overwhelmed by all the positive reviews which can't state that they are being paid to say positive things about the Xbox One.. It's also not a video game, it's a console and it's a pricey consumer product too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Showan Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 So in your eyes Microsoft is awesome until they start to kill people or become a cigarette company which removes the filter and lies about the hazards associated with smoking.. Even worse promotes it as safe and good? (So worse than today's cigarette companies) And for some people it will cost them, they are probably on YouTube now being overwhelmed by all the positive reviews which can't state that they are being paid to say positive things about the Xbox One.. It's also not a video game, it's a console and it's a pricey consumer product too. Microsoft isn't "ALL WORLD HOLY" at all... When I don't like a product, I tend to not bother with it at all. We live in 2014 now, no matter how much someone promotes a product (and even make a couple of $$$ off of it), it is still up to the would be buyer to research what they are getting into. The internet is readily available to ALL... Even those that are poor or homeless can stroll into a library and grab a weather forecast and such. There is tons on legit information on a product at a persons disposal. I've seen YouTube and Twitch streams with people saying nothing but positive things about what they are showing. Doesn't matter if they are paid or not. It's a Minecraft world right now, videos of it everywhere... My son loves it, so I see just about everyday.... Guess what??? I still hate Minecraft. And you are right, it is a console that cost $500. But there is also no gun to anyone's head and Microsoft shouting "BUY IT OR ELSE". I'm not big on Apple at all, but I did my research when I bought my iPad 2 (it was the best tablet on the market at the time. And is the first Apple product I ever bought, and the only Apple product I currently own) Guess what. I love my iPad, although I'm still not big on Apple. But overall Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo do make awesome products. Doesn't mean I like them all... Thief000 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Active. Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Personally, I think it's a load of garbage, and I'll tell you why: being on this forum, how many times would I see someone post "Man, you sound like a paid [company] shill!" If people dislike the idea of someone spreading their opinion to the point that it appears almost as a paid advertisement for that company, THEN WHY THEY HECK would anyone be okay with the ACTUAL practice taking place? Makes you wonder whether MS offers similar incentives to forum posters. Surely that would be the next step? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spenser.d Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Makes you wonder whether MS offers similar incentives to forum posters. Surely that would be the next step? It doesn't really. We'd know about it, just like we know about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malisk Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Sounds much cheaper for Microsoft than to hire an ad agency, but also kind of awkward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted January 21, 2014 Author Subscriber² Share Posted January 21, 2014 Makes you wonder whether MS offers similar incentives to forum posters. Surely that would be the next step? A mass of EA shills were canned on NeoGAF when the SimCity DRM fiasco kicked off (or astroturfers I think they're called). Actual shills though, admins traced IPs/email addresses. So maybe not incentivised/paid posting, but companies definitely do damage control on some of the larger forums. If you want more specifics on the banings, its due to the accounts posting like normal gamers/members defending EA/DRM. If you're from a company/publisher on GAF you need to have a tag describing who you are for transparency. trooper11 and Lord Method Man 2 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trooper11 Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Just did a search for the Microsoft promotion tag 'XB1M13' and there are already over 6800 videos on YouTube trying to cash in on the paid--positive-review offer from Microsoft. If a Video Producer accepted the Microsoft offer they had to sign a legal agreement that says they could not inform anybody (Their viewers or a third-party) within the video itself or otherwise that they are being paid to give as their personal opinion this endorsement to the Xbox One. http://www.pcworld.com/article/2089245/microsoft-paying-youtube-personalities-for-positive-xbox-one-endorsements.html "You agree to keep confidential at all times all matters relating to this Agreement, including, without limitation, the Promotional Requirements, and the CPM Compensation, listed above." Additionally, creators "may not say anything negative or disparaging about Machinima, Xbox One, or any of its Games" in their videos. From the legal agreement here: http://pastebin.com/vec6vjv5 Based on the language of the agreement imo: That does not bar the caster from creating a section in their channel that is labeled 'Sponsored Videos' or 'Promotions' It would also not bar that caster from making a single video that spoke in general terms about the fact that they may sometimes participate in sponsored content demos, etc and that when that was occurring, they would show up in that section. Now if that is in violation of the rules and Machinima were to reject the video based on that, then that means casters are barred from disclosure of any kind. At that point, I'm not ok with it. Also, a little aside here. You know, we have never seen MS mentioned at all as part of this promotion. The only reference to MS anywhere is in the agreement where they mention not offering negative opinions about MS products. I have no idea how advertising agreements work, but is it possible that MS contracted Machinima to do promotions and then Machinima went about doing just that, with offers like this? Meaning, did MS have to approve each method of promotion, or did they just leave the details to Machinima? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Audioboxer Subscriber² Posted January 21, 2014 Author Subscriber² Share Posted January 21, 2014 Based on the language of the agreement imo: That does not bar the caster from creating a section in their channel that is labeled 'Sponsored Videos' or 'Promotions' It would also not bar that caster from making a single video that spoke in general terms about the fact that they may sometimes participate in sponsored content demos, etc and that when that was occurring, they would show up in that section. Now if that is in violation of the rules and Machinima were to reject the video based on that, then that means casters are barred from disclosure of any kind. At that point, I'm not ok with it. Also, a little aside here. You know, we have never seen MS mentioned at all as part of this promotion. The only reference to MS anywhere is in the agreement where they mention not offering negative opinions about MS products. I have no idea how advertising agreements work, but is it possible that MS contracted Machinima to do promotions and then Machinima went about doing just that, with offers like this? Meaning, did MS have to approve each method of promotion, or did they just leave the details to Machinima? Well **** is going down at Machinima to be sure. Community managers twitter account, and his personal, were both deleted. Someone started a new twitter account with his username below lol. I think ClickInsect was community manager account. https://twitter.com/ClickInsect Also lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trooper11 Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Well **** is going down at Machinima to be sure. Community managers twitter account, and his personal, were both deleted. Someone started a new twitter account with his username below lol. I think ClickInsect was community manager account. https://twitter.com/ClickInsect Yeah, they really have a problem on their hands. Time to grow a pair and just lay it all out and get it over with. Man, if only casters were disclosing this. Really makes it so much worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trooper11 Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Here is another good video on this topic from one of those popular YouTube casters I was talking about: I think his opinion on this mirrors mine. Its interesting to hear his perspective because he is a guy that has taken parts in being paid for various content, and he goes into all of that here. The ultimate point here is disclosure. If you do not disclose, your only going to hurt yourself and whatever it is that you are promoting. If the deal bars you from indicating you are in a promotion, then you have to refuse that deal or make it known that they are not allowed to bar you from that. So in this case, if the deal's terms really do bar any form of disclosure and casters were basically held hostage by Machinima's rules, then they are in violation of the law and that's a serious problem. dead.cell 1 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrunknMunky Veteran Posted January 21, 2014 Veteran Share Posted January 21, 2014 Oh god not TB :rofl: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Method Man Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Not turning out to be very good PR for Microsoft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trooper11 Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Oh god not TB :rofl: Uh oh, what did I do now? Is he taboo or something? I hope I didn't just hurt my position :laugh: He is a popular YouTube caster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrunknMunky Veteran Posted January 21, 2014 Veteran Share Posted January 21, 2014 Uh oh, what did I do now? Is he taboo or something? I hope I didn't just hurt my position :laugh: He is a popular YouTube caster. I'm not a fan personally. I used to watch his WTF series but his critque style is terrible, not to mention his treatment towards viewers. Always "I'm right, you're a stupid little kid who knows nothing" defense. I love when he goes too far and the witch hunts break out on Reddit. Guilty pleasure :p Still listening to this video and so far so fair. PS: the "yuh" sounds he adds to the end of his sentences infuriates me. STOP! :rofl: PSS: genuinely lol'd when he said he's never heard of a paid for review. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trooper11 Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Oh and Ars updated their article: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/01/stealth-marketing-microsoft-paying-youtubers-for-xbox-one-mentions/ The update is pretty darn important here because it makes two points: 1. MS apparently had no knowledge or control of the program in question or its terms. Machinima bares all of that responsibility. 2. They explicitly say that the Machinima terms do not bar casters from mentioning that the promotion exists, only to the specific terms of their deal. That's sort of how I was interpreting it earlier, but now that they are confirming that point, that at least makes it sound like casters were, in fact, allowed to tell their viewers in some way about participating in a promotion. So, these could just be lies, but if we take them at face value, then they clear things up a little. It still leaves the problem of casters actually disclosing things. Thief000, +ekoht and SecretAgentMan 3 Share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trooper11 Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 I'm not a fan personally. I used to watch his WTF series but his critque style is terrible, not to mention his treatment towards viewers. Always "I'm right, you're a stupid little kid who knows nothing" defense. I love when he goes too far and the witch hunts break out on Reddit. Guilty pleasure :p Still listening to this video and so far so fair. PS: the "yuh" sounds he adds to the end of his sentences infuriates me. STOP! :rofl: PSS: genuinely lol'd when he said he's never heard of a paid for review. Ah ok, yeah I have to agree with you that is tone can be very rough. I can't stand some of his reviews and the 'Content Patch' stuff when he comes off as saying his word is law :laugh: I've watched his StarCraft stuff because he tends to do a good job making commentary for matches or live broadcasting them. I've also watched some of his Hearthstone content. On those two topics, I appreciate his analytical style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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